Nature vs Nurture? Is CDing genetic, or learned (or both!)

[Pythos]

Let me just ask this question, and you need to answer truthfully for it to be worth anything

When a boy plays with the following, A barbie doll, a baby doll, an article of girl's clothing...what usually happens to him?
Is he
A) praised
B) shunned
c) threatened with bodly harm?
d) bullied
e) B,C, and D

Now flip this over for girls playing with play power tools, toy cars, wearing items of clothing that used to be for boys only.

Now, tell me that it is just nature, when you have answered these questions.

[SweetIonis]

Pythos, I think you certainly demonstrated that it's not EXCLUSIVELY nature. However, without giving nature as an explanation, one would be hard pressed to explain many aspects of behavior that seem to be prominent in different individuals, despite being in practically the same environment.

[steph1964]

Let me just ask this question, and you need to answer truthfully for it to be worth anything

When a boy plays with the following, A barbie doll, a baby doll, an article of girl's clothing...what usually happens to him?
Is he
A) praised
B) shunned
c) threatened with bodly harm?
d) bullied
e) B,C, and D

Now flip this over for girls playing with play power tools, toy cars, wearing items of clothing that used to be for boys only.

Now, tell me that it is just nature, when you have answered these questions.

Pythos, That is a good example but I think that you just argued against nurture. The fact that boys are shunned, threatened and bullied places them in an environment where crossdressing isn't tolerated. Therefore the the environment wouldn't be the cause of the crossdressing, just the cause of placing crossdressers in the closet. If a boy was praised then that could be an example where nurture played a big part.

As I have stated previously, I think that it depends on the individual.

[Kristy_K]

I myself also started at a very young age. I remember raiding my mom's dresser before the cookie jar. My older half brother is a CD. My younger full brother wants nothing to do with it. I watch a show on TV that look at some of the other culture,s in the world like India,s and some that I haven't even heard of before also have there form of CD's. Except in them cultures they are consider to be special people and have special place in there society and not consider to be strange. We just live in the wrong area of the world.

[SweetIonis]

The fact that boys are shunned, threatened and bullied places them in an environment where crossdressing isn't tolerated. Therefore the the environment wouldn't be the cause of the crossdressing, just the cause of placing crossdressers in the closet.

I understand what you are saying here, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. I could also mean that because the environmental factors are so harsh, there is not a larger proliferation of the phenomenon. Furthermore, by placing the behavior in the closet, it could be that the heightened sense of taboo actually increases the desire, and therefore causes the behavior to become more prominent. As such, the argument put forward does not NECESSARILY exclude the environment as being a factor.

[Sue101]

Could you please expound upon these concepts in more detail. Specifically, exactly what do you mean by a "lack of connection". Also could you explain just exactly what is this "growing up difficulty" and provide an example of what you mean.

Well growing up pains refers to the transition from childhood to adulthood. A lot of kids dont like leaving behind the safety and security of a happy, playful innocent childhood and heading into the unknown where many adult behaviors and responsibilities look daunting even frightening. Many of the classic children's books from Narnia to Peter Pan deal with this common issue. Children create alternative fantasy worlds to help them escape from their insecurities so these novels greatly appeal to children but the authors always advise children that they must return to reality and grow up. I think crossdressing fantasies are based on the same powerful escapism mechanism except we don't become wizards or space cowboys, we become girls because we link our insecurities with our male gender and so explore the fantasy of switching genders.

The lack of connection refers to the difficultuies in matching who children feel they are to the images of masculinity towards which they are being propeled. To respond to Lorileah, this is not about having an unhappy childhood or hating being a boy. Quite the opposite. Many CDs including myself had a normal happy childhood. This is about subconscious feelings of unease and inadequacy that we will fail to transition into real men because we are not courageous, not ruthless, not super competitive, not cold hearted, not aggressive etc. Our personal likes appear to have much more in common with women than men so we harbor doubts how we could be successful/happy playing the adult male role. The escapist fantasy of becoming a girl is a coping mechanism which recognises our disconnect with masculinity.

BTW these comments dont cover those who have gender identity concerns and who identify as a girl from a very early age. It is about the majority of crossdressers who begin crossdressing in later childhood without any history of prior gender trauma.

[morgan51]

As a young child I was driven to present as a female would long before I had any idea of sex or sexual feelings so I would have to say nature was the driving force at age 4. Nurture in our home was always gender appropriate and I had a strong father and mother figure to look up to. Becoming a young adult there wasn't any doubt as to how I should present, I just would rather not follow convention. So today I am learning to follow my heart instead of my mind. Admitting I'm hoplessly t and embracing that brings a nice balance to my life that has been missing for almost 60 years.

[Sue101]

There is most definitely a genetic cause as it has been noted that the brains of a transsexual developed more like the brains of the sex they identified as, rather than the sex of their birth.

I guess you are refering to the 1995 study by Zhou, Hofman, Gooren, and Swaab which dissected the brains of six post-op MTF transsexuals and found their structure to be more in line with females than males. You are aware of the serious flaw in this study? Aside from the tiny number of subjects, all the transsexuals had been on hormones for a long time. Since we know hormones dictate male and female brain structures, the result was predictable. Only by disscting transsexual brains who never took hormones would you be able to discern if there was a genetic causation. And unless the person has a hormonal imbalance a MTF transsexual's brain is only exposed to testosterone from the day they are born until the day they begin hormone treatment.

[Intertwined]

BTW Reto, you have beautiful feet, but can you walk in those shoes??

Not only do I get around on a set of 5 inch heels just as easily as I do flats, my back and legs feel better after wearing heels, compared to wearing flats.

NOW ! The Question, is this because I have done it for so long it's just what I am accustomed to, or, is because my body is genetically shaped in such a manner it is just more comfortable for me?

Neither. I think we were brainwashed!

THATS IT, Watching Bugs Bunny crossdress in the cartoons that I always watched did it.

Honestly Tho... because of my situation, I have no idea, my parents seperated when I was 2 years old. I lived with my mother, raised by her, my aunts and my grandmother, the only masculine examples I had in my life were drunks and wife beaters, this would lead you to believe Nurture. BUT A couple of years ago, I was diagnosed with klinefelters syndrome, 3 sex chromosome XXY, this would lead you to believe Nature...

[MattiQ]

Having a son who is a crossdresser, and recently finding out my father is a crossdresser, I have to say the nature definitely can play into it. Three generations, coincidence, I think not.

[SweetIonis]

Well growing up pains refers to the transition from childhood to adulthood. A lot of kids dont like leaving behind the safety and security of a happy, playful innocent childhood and heading into the unknown where many adult behaviors and responsibilities look daunting even frightening. Many of the classic children's books from Narnia to Peter Pan deal with this common issue. Children create alternative fantasy worlds to help them escape from their insecurities so these novels greatly appeal to children but the authors always advise children that they must return to reality and grow up. I think crossdressing fantasies are based on the same powerful escapism mechanism except we don't become wizards or space cowboys, we become girls because we link our insecurities with our male gender and so explore the fantasy of switching genders.

The lack of connection refers to the difficultuies in matching who children feel they are to the images of masculinity towards which they are being propeled. To respond to Lorileah, this is not about having an unhappy childhood or hating being a boy. Quite the opposite. Many CDs including myself had a normal happy childhood. This is about subconscious feelings of unease and inadequacy that we will fail to transition into real men because we are not courageous, not ruthless, not super competitive, not cold hearted, not aggressive etc. Our personal likes appear to have much more in common with women than men so we harbor doubts how we could be successful/happy playing the adult male role. The escapist fantasy of becoming a girl is a coping mechanism which recognises our disconnect with masculinity.

BTW these comments dont cover those who have gender identity concerns and who identify as a girl from a very early age. It is about the majority of crossdressers who begin crossdressing in later childhood without any history of prior gender trauma.

That's some heavy duty shit Sue! Very interesting. I especially find it interesting because I know I never really identified with girl things at an early age, and had quite a happy childhood. But as I said earlier, I distinctly remember having this inflated image of what I thought a guy should be and trying to project that when I would try to talk to girls. I also remember being very attracted to them, but also feeling very awkward talking to them, feeling that I would mess up or would somehow fail. I would be in anxiety in that regard. I don't feel any of the stuff about the competitiveness etc. But I remember it now. I was feeling that somehow if I failed, I would not make this transition into this artificial image of manhood that I created. Although you use the word children, I see this could possibly related to your statement:

"The lack of connection refers to the difficultuies in matching who children feel they are to the images of masculinity towards which they are being propeled."


What do you or anyone else who wished to comment think. Any rate, I need to think about it. But THANKS A LOT. This was definitely food for thought.

[SweetIonis]

Only by disscting transsexual brains who never took hormones would you be able to discern if there was a genetic causation. And unless the person has a hormonal imbalance a MTF transsexual's brain is only exposed to testosterone from the day they are born until the day they begin hormone treatment.

Perhaps you all need to be a bit more specific, because I still fail to understand the rational necessity that dictates that because a transexual's brain developed as a female, that the cause, HAS to be genetic. Environmental factors can surely cause the brain to develop in a certain way. Honestly, I realize I don't know much about this subject. However, I know for a fact that neural network technology was developed around the theory that the way we learn is by external stimuli causing synaptic neural connections to form in a certain way. Neural networks simulate this type of activity. What this tells me is that brain development can certainly be influenced by environmental factors. It doesn't necessarily have to be genetic. Therefore even if you demonstrated that the development was similar to a female, what is the rational necessity that dictates that the cause was genetic?

[Sue101]

I especially find it interesting because I know I never really identified with girl things at an early age, and had quite a happy childhood.

That is what makes the whole subject fascinating, trying to pin down the causation effects that seemingly appeared out of nowhere. I was very happy being a boy. I had no time or interest in girls. I was conditioned as a boy to think of them as irrelevant, second class citizens that were no good for anything except teasing. I did not relate to them at all so there is no evidence that I was transgendered for the first ten years of my life. So how come I ended up identifying with girls and turning my back on anything I considered overtly masculine?

We always try to recall specific events that could have trigger our interest in crossdressing and mostly we come up empty handed. I believe we are looking in the wrong direction. The answer lies in the background noise of our everyday feelings and emotions, our fears and anxieties that we would fail to live up to expectations and become one of life's losers. If I failed to grow into a real man then the only alternative in a binary system would be to associate myself with girls. My venture into crossdressing was an acknowledgement that I would be more comfortable being female than male since that solved the immediate problem of my perceived failings to achieve masculine goals.

because I still fail to understand the rational necessity that dictates that because a transexual's brain developed as a female, that the cause, HAS to be genetic.

Actually it probably rarely is. Genetics would have to cause abnormal hormone levels which in turn produced abnormal brain mapping. Intersexed individuals would fit that bill but normal healthy XY males would not. In fact any environmental cause that created a male with female brain mapping would have to be fairly powerful to overcome the effects of the testosterone produced in the male's genitals every minute of every day.

There is an obvious assumption people make that the differences in male and female brain mapping causes masculinity and femininity. A simple analogy of brain mapping is that a man and a woman are asked to travel from point A to point B. They take separate routes and one is probably more direct and faster. We can measure these differences in performance in certain tasks between the sexes, they are small but detectable and measure these different patterns in the formation of neural connections. However these differences in brain mapping while interesting, are largely irrelevant if men and women both end up at the same destination. But what that has to do with feeling masculine or feminine is undetermined.

I cannot detect any signs that I have a feminine brain nor would I expect to find any but that does not stop me from feeling supremely feminine when I crossdress so it is clear that these behaviors are not controlled by the brain mapping. The most masculine of men crossdress - from soldiers and policemen to politicians and business leaders. And feminine women can do the most masculine of jobs. To me this indicates this is most likely another dead end where the need to believe that crossdressing is genetic is not supported by the evidence or rational analysis.

[Engendered]

Another question is: why? Persistant genetic traits tend to help a species survive in some way. So how does crossdressing help the human species survive and reproduce?

When all the manly men have been wiped out by a pack of lions when hunting, it helps to have a couple of guys hanging out and doing girly things back at the cave so that the tribe can go on.
Crossdressers are the product of evolutions ancient wisdom: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket"

[SweetIonis]

We always try to recall specific events that could have trigger our interest in crossdressing and mostly we come up empty handed. I believe we are looking in the wrong direction. The answer lies in the background noise of our everyday feelings and emotions, our fears and anxieties that we would fail to live up to expectations and become one of life's losers. If I failed to grow into a real man then the only alternative in a binary system would be to associate myself with girls.

I find that concept interesting, but I'm still thinking about it. As I said earlier, I remember having some anxiety in that regard when I started trying to talk to girls in a sexual way. However, I am not able to find a direct connection between that and my experiences in dressing. As far as I can remember, my first experience was driven by curiosity more than anything else and I got stunned by the experience. I had a steady girl when I started dressing as an adult and initially, I think that was more driven by curiosity but combined with a desire to expand on my previous experience. But it's possible I was trying to relieve some of the other stress of having to survive. It's that stress associated with having to survive, to make a decent living where I THINK (I'm not sure) the link my lie. It's been a while since I read about it, but as I recall, Freud talked about something called the erotic instinct. It's possible (again I'm not sure), that the anxiety that I earlier experienced as an adolescent with respect to talking to girls, is subconsciously bundled with that anxiety. What do you think?

Actually it probably rarely is. Genetics would have to cause abnormal hormone levels which in turn produced abnormal brain mapping. Intersexed individuals would fit that bill but normal healthy XY males would not. In fact any environmental cause that created a male with female brain mapping would have to be fairly powerful to overcome the effects of the testosterone produced in the male's genitals every minute of every day.

There is an obvious assumption people make that the differences in male and female brain mapping causes masculinity and femininity. A simple analogy of brain mapping is that a man and a woman are asked to travel from point A to point B. They take separate routes and one is probably more direct and faster. We can measure these differences in performance in certain tasks between the sexes, they are small but detectable and measure these different patterns in the formation of neural connections. However these differences in brain mapping while interesting, are largely irrelevant if men and women both end up at the same destination. But what that has to do with feeling masculine or feminine is undetermined.

So are you saying that studies have actually been done where men and women are asked to do the same task. Then they look at the resultant neural patterns and they find that the women in the study have similar patterns, the men have similar patterns, and that the patterns of the men differ from those of the women. That's interesting. I'm assuming they examined them before the task, because otherwise it would be a meaningless exercise.

But yeah, I think that's a good point that feeling masculine or feminine doesn't have to be related to brain mappings. I think the fact that one can feel BOTH ways supports this notion.

[Sue101]

But it's possible I was trying to relieve some of the other stress of having to survive. It's that stress associated with having to survive, to make a decent living where I THINK (I'm not sure) the link my lie.

Quite possible. I personally know of two men who committed suicide after they lost their jobs and could no longer provide for their families. If failing in your male responsibilities can result in suicide then just the fear of failure would provide sufficient impetus to develop a coping mechanism. The psychological impact of crossdressing behavior is to remove yourself temporarily from your maleness and all its stresses and responsibilities and explore a fun experience that is devoid of stress and responsibility.

So are you saying that studies have actually been done where men and women are asked to do the same task.

Absolutely science has identified many tasks which produce small be reproducable differences in perfermormance such as in language and mathematics proficiency or spatial abilities. Not only are there differences in brain mapping but also in what makes up the brain with men having significantly more grey matter while women have more white matter so the concentations of neurons are different. When a man is asked to speak a certain word one part of his brain lights up to perform the task while in women a different part of the brain is used. But both men and women can speak the word as proficently as each other and have equal understanding of the word. So the differences in the brain processing are irrelevant to the outcome.

Essentially men and women process information differently and so often approach a subject from a different angle but the end result is either the same or very similar. None of the differences in abilities are profound and are minor compared to the large differences in behavior different cultural environments produce. Most importantly of all, men and women share the same overall abilities, feelings and emotions. There is nothing men do that women do not and vice versa. So when we see any form of behavior that is dominated by one gender in our society, that is solely the result of gender conditioning not of differences in brain mapping/processing. So any male who dresses in a LBD and enjoys feelings of prettiness and desirability then that is as normal a feeling for a man to experience as it is for women.

[Fab Karen]

As the guy who couldn't afford music instruments said,"don't worry, be happy."

[SusanQ]

I was raised by a very dominating mother, and a quite dominated father. We lived in a four unit building, with three of my mother's sisters living in the other three apartments. There was a constant strong feminine presence in our house...I really do believe that I am the way I am because of all of these women who became role models for me.

[Engendered]

I'm uneasy at the view expressed in some of the posts here, that we are the way we are because of childhood insecurities. The idea of being scared of the grown-up world and male expectations and hence jumping headlong into female escapism is not something that sits right with me. It's almost like saying that gay people are gay because they were frightened by the idea of asking girls out when they were younger and were more comfortable around guys.

[SweetIonis]

The psychological impact of crossdressing behavior is to remove yourself temporarily from your maleness and all its stresses and responsibilities and explore a fun experience that is devoid of stress and responsibility.

Sue, you have really helped shed some light on this subject for me. Thanks.

Not only are there differences in brain mapping but also in what makes up the brain with men having significantly more grey matter while women have more white matter so the concentations of neurons are different. When a man is asked to speak a certain word one part of his brain lights up to perform the task while in women a different part of the brain is used.

That's interesting in of itself. I didn't know that. I will think about it some more. Again thanks.

[kimdl93]

When all the manly men have been wiped out by a pack of lions when hunting, it helps to have a couple of guys hanging out and doing girly things back at the cave so that the tribe can go on.
Crossdressers are the product of evolutions ancient wisdom: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket"

Along these lines, through most of history, the eldest male tended to inherit the family wealth - leaving the younger male siblings with the choice of subordinating to the elder, or engaging in fratricide! Research has shown that younger male siblings are more likely to be effeminate than thier older brothers, and the more older siblings, the more likey one is to be so. This genetic influence may have contributed to more harmonious family relations and more stable extended families, and in the end, more success in reproduction.

There are other illustrations among other social species. Wolf packs, for example, include a dominant, reproductive pair supported by subordinate male and female siblings.

I'm uneasy at the view expressed in some of the posts here, that we are the way we are because of childhood insecurities. The idea of being scared of the grown-up world and male expectations and hence jumping headlong into female escapism is not something that sits right with me. It's almost like saying that gay people are gay because they were frightened by the idea of asking girls out when they were younger and were more comfortable around guys.

I also think that the suggestion that "escaping" to a female role reflects a rather unrealistic perception of womens' lives... Today or in the past. Women have never really had it that good - outside of Victorian romance novels.

[Tina B.]

Either way it's all just speculation, I'll wait for the science community to agree with each other, before I can take either side serious. I come from a family of one girl followed by three boys, oldest son very macho, youngest son, called Bubba, he is so macho and rednecked, middle son, never liked sports, got along better with girls than boys always, and started crossdressing at least by the time I was 6 or 7, same parents, father, also very manly, take charge kind of guy. I can't find how nature, loses out to nurture. But it does make for a great topic, no one seems to be able to be proven wrong.
Tina B.

[Sue101]

I'm uneasy at the view expressed in some of the posts here, that we are the way we are because of childhood insecurities.

So are you saying that childhood insecurities have no impact in how we turn out as adults? You would be hardpressed to find any psychologists who would support that. We are the product of our experiences, thoughts and emotions with our childhood being the most important formative time.

It's almost like saying that gay people are gay because they were frightened by the idea of asking girls out when they were younger and were more comfortable around guys

How do you know you have not just found the source of homosexulity You missed the bigger picture. It is not about being scared or experiencing some form of trauma, it is about a lack of connection with what you percieved masculinity to be. It is about anxiety that you will not live up to expectations or dispondency that you will be left behind. Such feelings will result in our slowly distancing ourselves from masculinity and seeking linkages and reassurance in female culture. It is a process which opens up the door to exploration as we seek to align our innermost feelings with the options society offers.

Think of it as a person who was brought up under one religion slowly realizing that his beliefs do not satisfy him or maybe run contrary to his convictions. He then investigates another religion which offers greater satisfaction and so he begins to integrate new ideas into his beliefs and maybe eventually he switches over entrely. Most people stick with the religion they were indoctrinated into by their parents (just like gender) but a few will convert when doubts and dissatisfaction reach a sufficiently high level.

[SweetIonis]

Quite possible. I personally know of two men who committed suicide after they lost their jobs and could no longer provide for their families. If failing in your male responsibilities can result in suicide then just the fear of failure would provide sufficient impetus to develop a coping mechanism. The psychological impact of crossdressing behavior is to remove yourself temporarily from your maleness and all its stresses and responsibilities and explore a fun experience that is devoid of stress and responsibility.

I want to take a deeper bite out of that apple. The issue of maleness does not have to be associated with the pressure of making a living. I think that will vary from individual to individual with respect to the extent that their source of income is tied up with their ego. Of course everything we do is tied to our ego to some extent, but an individual can work at a job and only care about it with respect to just drawing a paycheck. Such a person has no real interest in the job itself, as opposed to someone who is doing something that they are actually passionate about. For example, Einstein worked for a short period as some sort of patent clerk. His real interests however, were much deeper than examining patents. As such I would expect there he had much more of an egotistical investment in his theories, than his work at the patent office. Regardless, any person who has to work for a living will be in some anxiety about there ability to remain employed. That is true whether one is a man or a woman. A woman will sometimes find relief from the stresses associated with having to make a living by going to buy new clothes. When she does so, is she seeking relief from the pressures of maleness? Of course not. She is seeking relief from the pressure associated with having to survive. The point is that while there could be some aspect of escaping the pressures of maleness associated with crossdressing, it doesn't have to be a prominent aspect. It could have more to do with escaping the more general pressures associated with having to survive.

[Sue101]

The point is that while there could be some aspect of escaping the pressures of maleness associated with crossdressing, it doesn't have to be a prominent aspect. It could have more to do with escaping the more general pressures associated with having to survive.

True enough there are many pressures in life and there are also many coping mechanisms eg. taking a break, going to a spa, playing sports etc. When the coping mechanism involves switching gender roles though then that does suggest the person has identified gender to be either the problem or the solution ie. distancing yourself from pressures perceived to revolve around being a man, or drawn to femininity through the perception that women have it easy. The key here is perception. In reality the pressures may indeed be general survival problems everyone experiences and women certainly do not have it easy either.

Consider crossdressing fantasies. How many CDs dress up as a female janitor cleaning an office? That does not rate highly on the CD's all time favorite fantasies listing because it lacks strong overtones of sexuality or femininity.