I’m getting really sick of this…

[sissystephanie]

Nigella's last post states the entire program very succinctly!! This is a FORUM, and unless the post is obviously not within the rules, it cannot be removed!! As Nigella said, many posts are not going to be what you wanted to read!! But if you don't like them, just move on!! You don't have to agree with every post, and no one has to answer every post!! I read a lot of posts that I totally disagree with, but the majority of times I just move on!! There are too many things of importance going on in the world to have arguments over crossdressing issues!!

And one other major point, if you think it necessary to crictically answer a post, please be sure and read the post again. Many people on this forum answer a post when they obviously have not read the post completely, and understood it!! When I say understood the post, I mean from all sides, not just your own version of what should be!!

[Phoebe P.]

Wow! I've been away for a while! Quite a bit going on evidently!

[Karren H]

Frederique,
What you say is true; However, some of us here can not go out because we would look like a
coal miner in a dress digging coal. Sorry Karren, But it is true. I my self would love to go out
of the house dressed,
Rader

I know some pretty cute female underground coal miners!!

[Butterfly Bill]

Many men who have come out and found that not only did the world not end and they didn't get ridden out of town on a rail, but that there are many people who they thought wouldn't accept it who do, and that in the main most people don't care, get into a happy feeling that they want to share with others. It's like an evangelist wanting to spread the good news. I would never try to lay a shame and guilt trip on someone and call him a coward, because I know that trying to motivate people in that way is always ultimately futile, but when watch people getting so afraid of things that they think might happen that I know from my own experience won't, I can find it hard to support people in their distress by agreeing with them.

[suchacutie]

Frederique...thank you for giving me the image that I just could not come up with on my own!

In all this "closet" discussion, I was looking for a brilliant retort that would end the issue, but alas try as I might, I failed.

Then, you said it:

Dressing is a special event...every time. It's important to me, well to both of us! I will do nothing to minimize that importance, and everything to enhance the event!

Thank you! You're fantastic!

tina

[Frédérique]

[SIZE="2"]Oh, dear, where do I begin? Thanks for the many responses so far...[/SIZE]

Just as you think there are better things to discuss, so do other members here. This forum is a cross section of the human race, just as RL is. I think though, that you believe that the in the closet, out the closet, issue is worth pursuing, otherwise why start this thread?? All you have done is keep the topic open, with an opinion on why staying in the closet is right for you, then castigating others who do not agree with you.

[SIZE="2"]Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you begin a thread titled “Do you not regret coming out of the closet?” I believe THAT qualifies as “keeping the topic open,” dear moderator. BTW, my aim is not to castigate others with words – I’m just an observer, and I’m commenting on what I read, just like everyone else. Since the “closet” issue is subtly being steered one way, for whatever reason, I thought I might chime in and balance things a bit. This is one of those “damned if you DO, damned if you DON’T” threads, and I could’ve just as easily stayed away from the site and painted my nails...
[/SIZE]

But nooooooo....... You have to stay closeted, don't you? Just remember that that road construction worker who just got off work and is sitting down at the local watering hole having a Budweiser in his sleeveless flannel shirt that allows him to show off his many tattoos only holds on to his preconceived ideas about "queers" because you refuse to go in there en femme, sit next to him on the barstool, and have a drink with him.

[SIZE="2"]But, darling – I don’t drink...

The gentleman in question may be “queer” himself, but I don’t do tricks... [/SIZE]

Freddy, is it the debate that is bothering you, or is it your perception there is a significant amount of people who despise the closeted CDs? If you read the threads carefully you'll see that most CDers agree with you. It's not much of a debate, actually.

[SIZE="2"]There are a few individuals who seem to take issue with closeted crossdressers, and there are others who are IN the closet that take issue with the former, usually in the form of wordy one-upMANship. Personally I think there are better, more important and supportive things worthy of discussion. I began this thread to discuss THAT, not perpetuate the tired debate about being “in” or “out.” In this case, I’m making a thinly-veiled commentary about male behavior, which is a recurring theme I explore. The reactions to what I write are quite revealing and interesting, and I get to know my "fellow" crossdressers better through these written “conversations.” I am neither IN the closet completely, nor am I OUT in the world at all times, so I report from my position in limbo...[/SIZE]

I do agree with the others in this thread who suggest you ignore the members here whom you believe are inflexible in their beliefs.

[SIZE="2"]Oh, I ignore plenty of inflexible individuals – in fact, my “ignore list” is overflowing... [/SIZE]

However, I feel compelled to observe, after reading your rather detailed account of your imaginary "stroll" past the elementary school, wellness center, city hall, "watering hole," police station and VFW post, that your situation in a small town in central Kansas is much more difficult and constraining than many of us face.

[SIZE="2"]Thank you for pointing that out! All I can do is tell you about my immediate surroundings, and who I might converse with – it is not a place that “welcomes” individuality, but if I lived in a more accepting locale I would still be rather reserved with my crossdressing, because I am a shy, retiring type. To reiterate what I related in the OP, this is largely a private, special activity for a person such as myself, and I plan and prepare accordingly for those times I CAN crossdress, or when I wish to make an ordinary occasion truly extraordinary. I am not a 100% transgendered person, just a plain old MtF crossdresser who gets a “kick” out of wearing female clothing as often as I can. Crossdressing in my constraining environment can be very exciting, in fact I enjoy being completely unlike my neighbors in ALL ways. What they don’t know won’t hurt them, but I don’t wish to hurt myself, either...

I must say that being HERE, in a largely non-constraining situation, trying to put words to thoughts, is fun and challenging, so, in spite of myself, I keep coming back. I guess what I’m trying to say is thanks for putting up with me (so far)...
[/SIZE]

[Anne2345]

Ooh gosh, maybe all the MTF's should dance around their handbags singing Kumbaya, holding hands and all getting along... now let me burst that little bubble of yours Freddy and bring you back into the real world, where people aren't always going to agree, like each other, get along etc etc... This is a forum, people can post whatever they like as long as it's within the rules. If you don't like what people post, it's really quite simple... move along to the next thread where they are all sitting around the camp fire singing Kumbaya and join in with them ok? :D

I agree with this general premise. This is a forum in which members can post their respective opinions, and should be encouraged to do so. However, Frederique was but merely posting her own opinion in response to a minority of members that take the position closeted crossdressers are cowards, full of fear, and do nothing to promote the out-of-the-closet transgendered platform and agenda. Because this is a forum in which all are at liberty to post their own opinions within the rules set forth herein, she has just as much "right" to do so as the next girl.

Frederique's response, within the confines of this thread, however, are well thought out, and individual to her own circumstances. The "discourse" that brought about this thread in the first place was not. Broad, general statements were made, utilizing shame tactics and insult, and based upon nothing but unwarranted and unfounded assumption. Frederique sought to dispell such baseless assumptions in her rebuttal by using herself as an example. This is classic debate, and should be encouraged. I, for one, found Frederique's post quite compelling.

I do not believe the point of her post was to dissuade legitimate debate, but rather to point out the flaws in certain members' logic, and request that discourse remain civil. And if through her words, discourse, and debate, some members do indeed joining hands, dance around, and sing Kumbaya, is this not a good thing within that particular circle? She argues for acceptance, love, respect, understanding, and civility. Are these not noble causes to address and discuss? I believe they are, and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that you believe the same.

[Nigella]

[QUOTE=Frédérique;2564916]
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you begin a thread titled “Do you not regret coming out of the closet?” I believe THAT qualifies as “keeping the topic open,” dear moderator. BTW, my aim is not to castigate others with words – I’m just an observer, and I’m commenting on what I read, just like everyone else. Since the “closet” issue is subtly being steered one way, for whatever reason, I thought I might chime in and balance things a bit. This is one of those “damned if you DO, damned if you DON’T” threads, and I could’ve just as easily stayed away from the site and painted my nails...
:straightface

Yes I did start that thread, but you forgot to mention the thread that my SO started "Do you regret coming out of the closet", so there is a balanced view in that respect in that both sides have an opportunity to voice the pros and cons of coming out. However, without understanding the reasons for these threads you have assumed that it is my intention to keep a debate open with a slant to "my side".

Well in respect of the threads currently running, all will be revealled in due course, as for my views, they are just that my views, I only know a couple of members from this site in RL. I don't give a toss what anyone here does with their lives, they have a nil impact on my life, so to everyone, live your life as you see fit, after all it is your life. How you or anyone else interprets my posts, well again that is out of my control, read things how you will.

[Noortje]

Hmm... you say repeatedly that you are tired of the discussion and want to stay out of it (I feel the same way), but your entire piece argues for staying in the closet, which is one of the sides in this age-old discussion. I will not not argue against your right to stay in the closet, because I am on your side of this dichotomy, but you are still perpetuating the argument itself.

I believe that this argument is worth having, because in spirit it is an argument that is essential to society. It is about an individual's responsibility for furthering society's understanding of minorities, and of people who are different. The people who choose to do this are the driving force of social progress, but in general they do this at grave personal risk. That is why it takes courage. I suggest we have this argument every time someone wants to. And every time we have this argument we should use the opportunity to praise those courageous enough to try to make life better for others, through a process that makes it worse for themselves. We should also, every time, emphasize that nobody is obliged to do this. We should remind those who want to stay in the closet that it is okay to do so.

To everyone out there: you have my permission to fight for my rights, and I will thank you if you do so. But I am not obliged to fight for yours.

There is one thing about your post though, Frédérique, that makes me really angry:

...seek compassion for others who are unlike you, and try to understand that one size, or one circumstance, does not fit all. In short, drop the MALE, will you please?

...not bend individuals to my will like a male would do.

Yeah, let's blame everything on one gender. Men are evil, women are flawless. Way to fight for understanding and equality, Frédérique.

[Frédérique]

Frederique was but merely posting her own opinion...

[SIZE="2"]Dearest Anne, please don’t feel like you have to defend me within this discussion, or at any other time. You’re relatively new here, and there are some things you don’t know yet. I should have sent you a PM of advice for dealing with certain individuals, but darned if I don’t get embroiled in these in/out discussions against my will (which you seem to be involved in) – this is the place where crossdressing ceases to be magical, and real life (hitherto referred to as RL) creeps under the door to steal your precious panties...

I was hoping to avoid seeing the post you quoted, but there it is, and I had to read it to better understand where you’re coming from, or why you’re trying to help me. Just avoid reading posts like that, and please don’t empower the individuals who hate MtF crossdressers by passing along their unsympathetic prose, if you can call it that. A lot of people on this site don’t like me, and they poke me with a pointed stick now and then to get their jollies. Tell me – if somebody called your thoughtfully-chosen words “bullshit” in the BODY of the forum, would you write one of your thoughtful, eloquent rebuttals, or would you withdraw, painfully injured by the very people who are supposed to be offering support? I’m sure the person in question is chuckling with glee right now, but that’s OK, since I very much don’t count for anything around here - I'm an MtF crossdresser, you see...[/SIZE]

[SIZE="2"]If you don’t see me around, you’ll know why. I love you, Anne – thanks for all your help... [/SIZE]

Yes I did start that thread, but you forgot to mention the thread that my SO started "Do you regret coming out of the closet", so there is a balanced view in that respect in that both sides have an opportunity to voice the pros and cons of coming out. However, without understanding the reasons for these threads you have assumed that it is my intention to keep a debate open with a slant to "my side".

[SIZE="2"]Ok, Nigella, I was unaware of that other thread. Is it OK to say that I feel like I’m being double-teamed? Meanwhile, I feel like I’m relatively alone, inserting myself into someone else’s discussion, but it’s reassuring to know that many members are as fed up as I am – for the umpteenth time, this thread is not about IN vs. OUT, it’s about the behavior of certain MtF individuals in those other threads, where closeted crossdressers come under fire from people who should know better...[/SIZE]

Well in respect of the threads currently running, all will be revealed in due course, as for my views, they are just that my views, I only know a couple of members from this site in RL. I don't give a toss what anyone here does with their lives, they have a nil impact on my life, so to everyone, live your life as you see fit, after all it is your life. How you or anyone else interprets my posts, well again that is out of my control, read things how you will.

[SIZE="2"]What will be revealed in due course? That you are correct, and I am wrong? That crossdressers who go out are the REAL crossdressers, and those who keep to themselves are not really true CD’s? That is largely a rhetorical question, since I also don’t care how others live their lives, or how you (or they) may actually feel about others in the community. I’m just glad to see more “body” to your posts, so I can understand where you’re coming from a little better. Any interpretation I may make from your chosen words is not superficial, I assure you, nor do I post casually...[/SIZE]

Yeah, let's blame everything on one gender. Men are evil, women are flawless. Way to fight for understanding and equality, Frédérique.

[SIZE="2"]Why, thank you – I love you, too!

Perhaps you didn’t read the lovely “guts” and “sack” thread by Anne2345, which sprang off of the “Hiding” thread by Pythos – you should read it all, and realize that this little discussion I began is based on a post by a MtF crossdresser (I assume), and the divisive reaction to it. In this context, men ARE evil, and women ARE flawless, but you need to realize that there IS a context before you start spewing venom at ME. I am fighting for equality within this section, in case you don’t realize it – when someone starts acting superior to everyone else, equality between different types of crossdressers flies out the window. Apparently this doesn’t bother YOU, but it bothers ME. Equality of the sexes is an appropriate topic for another forum, but here, on a crossdressing forum, issues relating to crossdressing (in all it’s myriad forms) are discussed, OK? When a male wears women’s clothing, and then says something stupid that is related to having “balls,” it really denigrates people quietly seeking sympathy for what they do. I didn’t want to write my thoughts about this divisive and juvenile posting, but, since the party in question is allowed to spout such utter nonsense, I am allowed to speak up and defend us inferior types. Read this, please:[/SIZE]

And one other major point, if you think it necessary to crictically answer a post, please be sure and read the post again. Many people on this forum answer a post when they obviously have not read the post completely, and understood it!! When I say understood the post, I mean from all sides, not just your own version of what should be!!

[SIZE="2"]Way to “fight” for understanding, Noortje, by being completely ignorant of what’s going on. At least you got the accents in my femme name correct...
[/SIZE]

[kimdl93]

the whole point of a discussion board is to facilitate discussion. As this thread and many others have shown, there are an abundance and broad range of points of view. Yes, I agree that often the points being made are grossly overgeneralized and that people often very presumptuously presume that whatever they are doing is the "right" way. And some people just enjoy stirring the pot to see what happens.

The one thing that really damages a discussion is when people resort to ad hominem attacks. Using personal attacks to justify a position, alas, is part of human nature, but not a very flattering one.

If it gets a bit much, there's usually another thread to follow.

[Kaitlyn26]

A lot of people on this site don’t like me, and they poke me with a pointed stick now and then to get their jollies.

Did it ever occur to you that it may not be a case of "jollies" at all? Maybe those people you claim are victimizing you, can't stand you and burst out in anger at your remarks every now and then.

[Noortje]

Perhaps you didn’t read the lovely “guts” and “sack” thread by Anne2345, which sprang off of the “Hiding” thread by Pythos...

I read parts of both. Not all, because they were very long, and I have seen this discussion before. I did not feel like getting into that discussion again, at least not right now, though I think the discussion is a valuable one.

In this context, men ARE evil, and women ARE flawless...

I really don't see that. What I saw in your post, which I read three times before commenting, is that you ascribe destructive, intolerant and numbskulled behaviour to masculinity, and suggest that the feminine are above that. As a man, I take offense to that. Also, have you met actual women?

Way to “fight” for understanding, Noortje, by being completely ignorant of what’s going on.

Bad form.

At least you got the accents in my femme name correct...

I like to make an effort.

[Frédérique]

Did it ever occur to you that it may not be a case of "jollies" at all? Maybe those people you claim are victimizing you, can't stand you and burst out in anger at your remarks every now and then.

[SIZE="2"]No comment, except to say that you’re relatively new here - you’ll meet the people I’m talking about soon enough, as long as you dare to question those things that others take for granted…[/SIZE]

[SIZE="2"]With the exception of one or two individuals, I wish to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread, and for their participation in this discussion/conversation, all for a good cause – this is a difficult topic to discuss, and, like most subjects along emotional lines, the discussion goes nowhere, but I still feel it NEEDS to be discussed. Once the current trend of IN vs. OUT wears thin, there will be a lull, and then the same topic(s) will be unearthed, only to go nowhere once again, but that’s how it is. I have nothing more to say on the subject at hand, so I respectfully withdraw myself at this time…

PS - Thanks for all of the kind, supportive comments -- I REALLY appreciate it! [/SIZE]

[SIZE="2"]I like that topic in “Special Events”: The Joy of Doing Nothing. That suits me just fine, for now…[/SIZE]

(????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????)

[SIZE="2"]Sorry, darling – I can’t see anything you write. I’m sure your comments are worth ignoring…[/SIZE]

[Kaitlyn26]

No one said everyone was going to like you, or me. I'm just saying that maybe you're pushing their buttons without realizing it. If they lash at you often, use your overflowing ignore list! I only have one person on ignore. Maybe you should think about some tolerance?

I'm just guessing here based on what others have said and your personality, that you live in a small town. Tolerance in small towns is normally pretty low, gossip is pretty high, and drama between persons is a dedicated past time. Have you ever tried living in the city? Is moving to a city an option for you? I think it would help you very much because you seem trapped and sad. But whatever it's your life to live.

[sometimes_miss]

First of all let me say that I support everything Frederique wrote in this thread. I was going to write lots more, but it's all been said. This thread is becoming exactly what Frederique described the other ones were like. Arguments. Even sadder though, is when we get our posts edited out because our opinions are deemed unacceptable. It makes this forum just another censored spot to visit, and as such, does not reflect the real world. So why argue about it so much? We're in a fantasy forum, it's not reality, so just enjoy the feel good environment here, and if you want argue, there are plenty of political forums available for that.

[ReineD]

SometimesMiss, posts are not edited here for having different opinions. They are edited for either being against the rules, being inflammatory, or otherwise inciting a flame war.

On that note, this thread is closed as well. Everything there is to say has also been said here.

Maybe we can all move on now.