Are All Crossdressers Transgendered

[cassandra54]

let's see all of us posting on here are on a website called Cross Dressers.com, so a lot of us believe that that we are cross dressers. We can call ourselves whatever we want and attach our own labels as we wish. But keep in mind, almost everyone here has a feminine name so what does that mean? I have always considered myself an individualist, a non-conformist and one who is not pinned down by labels. however, recently i've applied labels to myself, and am quite happy for it. not because i want to be put into a category, lifestyle or demographic, but because it's a good start to describe who i am. one thing that i have discovered is that we all have a very unique combination of labels too.
here are my labels

Republican: At least for the time being. Don't get me started
WASP: White Anglo Saxon Protestant.
Left-Handed
Gemini
Androgyne
Bisexual-Live with an SO in an open relationship
Transgender-I'm here on this website under the name of Cassandra, live pat time as a woman, have an e-mail address and flicker account under her name and started going out in public to experience life as a woman.
Left-Brained
Right Brained (i am both in almost equal proportions)
Christian- who believes in reincarnation and UFOs
Electrician

I have remarked in the past that I am so eclectic I have my own demographic.

[Miss Maxine]

one thing that i have discovered is that we all have a very unique combination of labels too.
here are my labels

The label on my bra reads: Goddess. ^_^

[kristinacd55]

I feel that the moment I went out in public enfemme to support group meetings and events is when I went from crossdressing to tg. It's more of a real time experience now than a strictly online one.

[Sherina]

If you look the term up on Websters dictionary you'll find references to both Cross Dressing and Trans- whatever.
Me? I feel that labels belong on cans, bottles, and clothes. Not people. Labeling leads to people claiming ownership and I am nobodies property, although I am married. But that is a relationship not ownership.
I think my SO has the right idea on an issue she has when filling out the census form. Under the label of race she chooses the box "Other" and then puts down the word "Human". But then she does that on any form that has that spot of labeling.

[Babeba]

Some nice points Kaitlyn. Here I think you have hit on the essence of the problem as I see it. I have seen MANY threads here that center on the notion that CDs who feel that there gender identity is male, despise it when they are lumped in with CDs who project a feminine sexual personna. And of course you have brought forward other situations where persons feel they are being mistakenly labeled. I suppose my point is that by choosing the nomenclature Transgender to apply to such a broad group, those involved in the LGBT rights movement are contributing to persons becoming misidentified with activity that they do not want to be associated with.



I think you misinterpreted what was said. Here's the exact quote:

"It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears)."

Sophie_C said that it CONFUSES people to think that it's sexuality, not that it is sexuality.

I think that between grammatical errors and preconceived notions, I now haven't the foggiest about what either of you two means, sorry!

However - I don't think it's right to change terminology because of what the layperson with no education about trans issues may think at first. If we all take one meaning, and stick to it - that's the best and most clear fashion of dealing with this issue. Transgender and Transsexual have very clear meanings, taken from their Latin roots. If you do any sort of gender bending at all as part of your self identity - well, you're transgender. If you feel like your sex - your biological sex - is wrong, that is being transsexual.

Sex=/=sexuality=/=gender.

The label on my bra reads: Goddess. ^_^

Miss Maxine, that marketer really had your number eh?! :-)

[Joanne f]

Most will say that cross dressing comes under the transgender heading but i personally do not think that all who cross dress are transgendered , the clothing they wear may be normal for the opposite gender but that does not necessarily mean that the person wearing them wants to or feels like crossing any gender norms as in those circumstances it would be the other people who are seeing them who may consider that person is crossing genders so they are using the term for their convenience and not the person who is dressing in a way they like to , but (always that but) i would agree that there is no doubt a bigger majority of CDs who do associate with a crossing or mixing of genders than with those that do not .

[LilSissyStevie]

The notion of "transgender" was created to group as many gender variant folks as possible under one title for political lobbying purposes. It is a political category not a scientific one. I have read many posts here where some CDs reject the term for themselves and many TS also reject the term. For instance:

http://ts-si.org/guest-columns/30891...ender-umbrella

Personally I like to think of myself as pan-gendered or gender-queer rather than trans-anything but transgendered doesn't really bother me since it's half true.

[misskristykitty]

No I do not believe for one second that all CD's are transgendered. My CD boyfriend is not transgendered he just curious about women's clothing and really likes the way panties feel.Does he dress everyday?? No he doesn't maybe once or twice a week.

[sterling12]

OK, let us consider The Situation from A TYPICAL Newbie Posting:

"Hello all! My name is ________, and I want to introduce myself. I have ALWAYS had these FEMME FANTASIES, since I was a child. My wife doesn't understand me, and it's driving me crazy, cause' I want to spend more time as _______. I am HETEROSEXUAL, I want that understood. I have NEVER been Gay, NEVER thought about being Gay, would never, ever, become Gay! UNLESS, I'm all dressed up and I'm being _____. Then when some HANDSOME GUY hits on me, all I want to do is Naughty Things with him, and we end up at A Motel!

So, as I always tell my wife, "these Other Feelings are not a problem!" I am ONLY A Heterosexual Crossdresser, and I only wear female clothes to relieve my tension! And of course, these feelings will never change. But my question is: "What should I do?" "Should I buy my hormones on The Street, or start therapy, so that I can be legitimate."

Yeah, sure we're not transgendered!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[ReineD]

If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a person's dress determines their gender identity.

It does, if the person dresses specifically to portray a different gender than assigned at birth and does not do it on a lark. We all choose to present ourselves in a manner that reflects who we feel we are.

Even if a CDer dresses purely for fetish or sexual reasons in private, the expression of his sexuality is deeply ingrained with who he feels he is as well, even if it is still at a deep subconscious level. IMO. Now if the fetish is interchangeable with other fetishes, such as latex or any number of other non-gendered fetishes, or even items of clothing be they shoes or gas masks, then I agree such a person does not cross the gender lines. But, a fetish CD who gets off on the "idea" of being a female (autogynephilia) most definitely crosses the gender barriers. IMO.

That's a good part of the reason I am not a fan of using the word 'transsexual'. It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears). It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."

No. As a few others have pointed out before me, physical gender has been defined through primary sexual characteristics, i.e, having a penis or a vagina. It has nothing to do with "sexuality", or a person's sexual orientation. A TS wants to change her primary sexual characteristics to match who she feels she is internally. "Transsexual" is a perfectly good description for this.

I agree that modern forms need to change their question from 'what sex are you', to 'what gender are you', when they ask whether someone is "M" or "F", and also they need to include another box "B", for a combination of both. Or, "B" could stand for bigender. But, I think it will take time for society in general to come to accept the concept since it goes against everything we know about evolution (in a general sense) and also since most people do identify as the gender that matches their primary sexual characteristics, independent of their sexual preferences.

so when a crossdresser says i am transgender, its a behaviour, and as a transsexual it is most certainly an identity... so ts people sometimes get upset when crossdressers say they are transgendered...and cd's get feelings hurt when ts people say they are not tg...

Many TSs have told me they don't understand CDers and I can certainly understand why this is. Both TSs and cisgenders fit within the binary view of gender: either/or, male/female. A MtF TS is solidly on the "F" end of the spectrum (as is the FtM TS who is solidly on the "M" side). But, there are in fact many gray shades and gender mixes in between. It's just not accurate to say that all CDs are male identified who dress for fetish or feel-good reasons. I believe there are more than just the two, M/F genders. I do see bigenders and dualgenders as being a gender, an identity, all their own that is a mix of the two, and this alone signifies they do cross the standard M/F gender identities.

[SweetIonis]

I think that between grammatical errors and preconceived notions, I now haven't the foggiest about what either of you two means, sorry!

Babeba, was has been said is not hard to understand. Let me attempt to state it simply and concisely. I am saying that using the term transgender to describe ALL persons who crossdress is misleading because it implies that all persons who crossdress consider themselves to be a different gender than that implied by their natal sex. And as there are some crossdressers who profess that this is not the case, then such nomenclature is misleading.

What Sophia has pointed out is that the use of transsexual to describe a person whose gender identification is different from their natal sex is also misleading because the use of the suffix "sexual" in "transsexual" has the effect of focusing attention on the person's sexuality as opposed to the real issue at hand which is gender identity.

I have read many posts here where some CDs reject the term for themselves and many TS also reject the term. For instance:

http://ts-si.org/guest-columns/30891...ender-umbrella

Interesting article Stevie.

So, as I always tell my wife, "these Other Feelings are not a problem!" I am ONLY A Heterosexual Crossdresser, and I only wear female clothes to relieve my tension! And of course, these feelings will never change. But my question is: "What should I do?" "Should I buy my hormones on The Street, or start therapy, so that I can be legitimate."

Yeah, sure we're not transgendered!

ROFLMAO!!!! Great post!!!

It does, if the person dresses specifically to portray a different gender than assigned at birth and does not do it on a lark. We all choose to present ourselves in a manner that reflects who we feel we are.

The issue at hand here is what is motivating the person to portray that different gender. Does a natal male who crossdresses just because he likes the clothes consider his gender identity to be that of a female? If we take what some say at face value, this is not the case. In that case there is no change of gender identity and the use of transgender can be misleading.

Even if a CDer dresses purely for fetish or sexual reasons in private, the expression of his sexuality is deeply ingrained with who he feels he is as well, even if it is still at a deep subconscious level. IMO.

Absolutely. No problem there.

Now if the fetish is interchangeable with other fetishes, such as latex or any number of other non-gendered fetishes, or even items of clothing be they shoes or gas masks, then I agree such a person does not cross the gender lines.

GAS MASKS???? DAMN!!! I thought I was freaky!!! :D:D:D

No. As a few others have pointed out before me, physical gender has been defined through primary sexual characteristics, i.e, having a penis or a vagina. It has nothing to do with "sexuality", or a person's sexual orientation. A TS wants to change her primary sexual characteristics to match who she feels she is internally. "Transsexual" is a perfectly good description for this.

Reine, not to offend you, but actually this person has made an astute point. The "sexual" in the nomenclature "transsexual" has the effect of leading someone to believe that what is being crossed, i.e. what the "trans" refers to, is sexuality, and that is precisely what you are objecting to.

Over and above that even the use of the term transgender is not above criticism. Someone earlier provided a very good article that demonstrates why this nomenclature can also fall short. Here's the relevant quote:

"First, and most basic, is an underlining assumption that one can not actually “change their sex”, that you remain forever the sex you were assigned at birth regardless of whatever somatic corrections you make. I know, I know, this is not what they say, well sometimes the transgenders actually do come right out and say it, but it is the inescapable essence of their position. If post-corrected women are defined as “transgendered” that is a basic and essential denial that they can correct what is actually now known as a medical condition and proceed with their lives on more or less a level playing field with other women. That they forever remain a third sex."

[ReineD]

The issue at hand here is what is motivating the person to portray that different gender. Does a natal male who crossdresses just because he likes the clothes consider his gender identity to be that of a female? If we take what some say at face value this is not the case. In that case there is no change of gender identity and the use of transgender can be misleading.

If it truly is "just" about the clothes, I doubt there will be forms, wigs, makeup, eyebrow thinning, body shaving, tucking, etc. We obviously can't paint members here with a broad brush, and there are men in this forum for whom it IS strictly about the clothes. I suppose whether it is a fetish or not is debatable (there are other definitions for fetish than sexual). But, based on the majority threads I've read here and the majority pics in the Gallery, I'd say for most people it is a lot more than just about the clothes, even for those who protest being thought of as a woman. Who knows? Perhaps such members can only acknowledge a binary gender and it is difficult for them to imagine anything in between?

Reine, not to offend you, but actually this person has made an astute point. The "sexual" in the nomenclature "transsexual" has the effect of leading someone to believe that what is being crossed, i.e. what the "trans" refers to, is sexuality, and that is precisely what you are objecting to.

I'm not offended.

But if the general public is interested in delving into precise definitions of TGs and all the groups that fall within the umbrella, the onus is upon them to learn the difference between primary and secondary sexual characteristics, and sexual orientation, and the words that are commonly used to define such things.

Transsexual is quite separate from heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, gynephilic, or androphilic.

[SweetIonis]

Well Reine, on the "just the clothes" thing, I'm going to take it at face value. I have more to say about this however, but will do so in a PM.

On the "onus" thing, I think that people who conceive of the nomenclature that they want to be associated with their particular group should be very careful when they choose. Otherwise, an inappropriate choice can certainly cause misunderstandings and can create unnecessary difficulty for the persons who are being misidentified. I also believe some of the onus should be on the group that is put into inconvenience, to be vocal about the fact that they are being mislabeled.

[CynthiaD]

If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a person's dress determines their gender identity.

No, it means that a person's choice of dress determines gender identity. There was a story a number of years ago about a pair of male twins in Canada. One twin had his penis burned off by a machine that was supposed to circumcise him. At the recommendation of doctors, his parents decided to raise him as a girl. Despite being forced to wear female clothing all his life, he continued to self-identify as male. In his teens he gave up his female clothing and lived the rest of his life as a male. He even married a woman. Unfortunately he died by his own hand at much too young an age.

CK

To add my own two cents worth, I think that all crossdressers are transgendered in the sense that they view themselves as belonging to the opposite sex. Not all the time, and perhaps never 100%. There are people who claim otherwise, and say it's nothing more than a hobby. I don't believe them. I think that these people are lying because they want to keep that part of themselves private, perhaps even from themselves. I respect this desire, and politely pretend to believe those who tell me that crossdressing is their hobby. I don't see any reason why a person shouldn't be allowed some privacy. But I won't ever believe it.

[SweetIonis]

To add my own two cents worth, I think that all crossdressers are transgendered in the sense that they view themselves as belonging to the opposite sex. Not all the time, and perhaps never 100%. There are people who claim otherwise, and say it's nothing more than a hobby. I don't believe them. I think that these people are lying because they want to keep that part of themselves private, perhaps even from themselves. I respect this desire, and politely pretend to believe those who tell me that crossdressing is their hobby. I don't see any reason why a person shouldn't be allowed some privacy. But I won't ever believe it.

OK Cynthia. Let's suppose someone is inclined to believe you. Can you offer a rationale or proof to support your assertion?

[Annaliese2010]

No I dont think so. Many men crossdress yet remain self identified an Male. To them the Emphasis is on the Act of cross-dressing...a practice from which they derive pleasure for reasons individual, varied and often private or if unexamined, murky yet not because of some definitive feminine quality or aspect of their personality within. For others such as myself, the word 'crosdressing' is a misnomer. The choice of clothing, the mannerisms, voice, behavior and other outward forms of visible expression flow naturally from an inner quality of character, a personality extant rather than contrived which is definitively feminine. Thus the word 'crossdressing' rings hollow. When you Are female from 1st principle you simply do as you do i.e. the urge and desire to dress and behave feminine derives from the presence of a mind which both intellectually and emotionally resonates with what is culturally labeled 'feminine'.

I would submit that the former type of crossdresser is not transgendered while the latter certainly is. The term 'Transgendered', for obvious etymologic reasons should be reserved to those who are internally female, and not be based on outward behavior which is not necessarily 1st principle.

[Julogden]

I agree with that assessment, but there are quite a few CD's who, for some reason, bristle at the thought of being included under the transgendered umbrella. The transgender term, as currently defined, covers a lot of territory.

If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a person's dress determines their gender identity.

Not really. It implies that one is dressing in clothes typical of the gender presentation that is expected of the opposite genetic sex. It's actually a bad term, in my opinion, but we're talking about what its current meaning is.

Carol

[Rianna Humble]

I think that people who conceive of the nomenclature that they want to be associated with their particular group should be very careful when they choose.

Then the onus is on you to find a term that is more correct than transsexual and which also avoids any possible confusion as to what is being described, but before you do that, I would say that the onus is also on you to disprove the experience of those TS who have posted explaining why the current term is both correct and understood by people around them.

[PretzelGirl]

We will never agree on terms as the monthly threads show, I just find it quite ironic that when transgender comes up as a term, that so many say that those that feel female are transgender and those that feel male aren't. I am guessing that the majority here feel somewhere in-between. That is why it is usually referred to as a spectrum instead of the binary male-female.

[Sophie86]

It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."

Everyone seems to assume that those two are mutually exclusive. Isn't it possible that gender identity issues gave rise to a sexual inclination? Or... maybe a sexual inclination gave rise to a gender identity issue?

[ReineD]

Can you all imagine a classroom in a primary school - say grade 5, where children are learning how to parse sentences in grammar class. Each child is an avid reader, but they cannot agree on grammar rules; one child calls the subject of a sentence an "adjective", while the other child calls it a "verb", and no one believes the teacher who correctly identifies it as a "noun".



I think it may be time for people to start reading the latest in transgender studies for correct terminology, rather than perhaps blogs or personal web pages, or maybe even making up their own because they disagree with established terms.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

hmmmmm

Do the latest in transgender studies say anything different from the studies that are "next to latest" or the ones before that??

As frustrating as it is, its better to talk about it.. despite all the confusion, i bet there are lots of connection being made in people's minds...folks reading some post and realizing "hey that's just like me"...

[cassandra54]

your geek is coming out there sue, talking about binary, come to think about it why not octal or hex.. by the way if you can spell your name in hex, you might be a geek.

[ReineD]

I'm not suggesting people stop having discussions about how they feel, but rather stop arguing about the meaning of basic words such as transsexual and transgender. :p

[SweetIonis]

Not really. It implies that one is dressing in clothes typical of the gender presentation that is expected of the opposite genetic sex. It's actually a bad term, in my opinion, but we're talking about what its current meaning is.

My point is that the use of the term to label certain groups of people creates confusion.

I would say that the onus is also on you to disprove the experience of those TS who have posted explaining why the current term is both correct and understood by people around them.

Rianna, I am not trying to deingrate your experience. I am making a point concerning the usage of the term, and I have stated clearly why I feel that way.

Everyone seems to assume that those two are mutually exclusive. Isn't it possible that gender identity issues gave rise to a sexual inclination? Or... maybe a sexual inclination gave rise to a gender identity issue?

Love it!! As usual, you demonstrate an ability to penetrate the subject matter to it's essence and in this instance have provided food to satisfy the intellectually hungry. Great point!!!!

your geek is coming out there sue, talking about binary, come to think about it why not octal or hex.. by the way if you can spell your name in hex, you might be a geek.

I was geek enough to find a ASCII to HEX converter for the character array SweetIonis

53 77 65 65 74 49 6f 6e 69 73
-S--w--e--e--t--I--o--n--i--s

Is that geek enough for ya?

I'm not suggesting people stop having discussions about how they feel, but rather stop arguing about the meaning of basic words such as transsexual and transgender. :p

It's hard to discuss the issue of whether the terms create confusion without touching on the meaning of the terms.