Male lesbians

[Debglam]

Wow! The simple turn of a phrase by a comedian seems to have put some folks on attack mode! Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of this on the forum lately.

Just as food for thought, If there is no gender binary then there probably isn't a sexual orientation binary either. If there is a whole range of gender identity (which seems pretty evident on this forum) then why can't someone be a lesbian when they are "a woman" or heterosexual when they are "a man?" Maybe all of this is fluid. I don't know but does it matter? Two consenting adults and all of that.

Let's try to increase the peace a little bit. Nobody is on this forum to get kicked in the teeth!

Debby

[Sophie86]

And you all wonder why women have so many issues with the TG community.

The woman who called me a lesbian doesn't have a problem with the TG community. She's very TG friendly, and is active in the LGBT community. She attends a Unitarian church that has had lesbian pastors in the past. And she's bi. So why would she say that to me if she had a problem with it?

[ReineD]

Maybe all of this is fluid. I don't know but does it matter? Two consenting adults and all of that.

Well, yes and no. I think it is fluid for people who are and who will stay somewhere in between the gender binary, such as many crossdressers. But I don't think there is a personal fluidity for MtF transsexuals, who do see themselves solidly in the female end of the binary. This might explain the strength of opinion, which I agree should be tempered a bit especially in this section of the forum. I've got to say though that CDs have occasionally had strong opinions about such things in the past as well.

[Debglam]

Well, yes and no. I think it is fluid for people who are and who will stay somewhere in between the gender binary, such as many crossdressers. But I don't think there is a personal fluidity for MtF transsexuals, who do see themselves solidly in the female end of the binary. This might explain the strength of opinion, which I agree should be tempered a bit especially in this section of the forum. I've got to say though that CDs have occasionally had strong opinions about such things in the past as well.

I think you are right Reine. I'm not even positive where I stand on binary vs. range yet, although I am leaning towards the latter.

Strong opinions are encouraged but there seems to have been some flat out mean posts lately throughout this forum.

[CheyenneNicky]

just thought i would put this out.... Those of us who dress like women feel like women who want to be with others females.... male lesbian if you want to be called that. I honestly don't care. you could say im gay in a straight man... (i do alot of gay things but i love women, could never be with a man. Penis to me is repulsive, and if i didn't like the feeling of my thing being messaged i probably wouldn't like it neither, just saying) so Melody, im sorry that your feeling were hurt by your ex's taking what you said as a joke, but you shouldn't be so negative, you seem so angry.

[Kittyagain]

I think you are right Reine. I'm not even positive where I stand on binary vs. range yet, although I am leaning towards the latter.

Strong opinions are encouraged but there seems to have been some flat out mean posts lately throughout this forum.

I think you are right Debby. I posted a comment the other day, I wished i had not. When I do that I am not sharing an opinion I am demanding you accept it.. Not such a good way to communicate.

Kitty

[Lorileah]

The woman who called me a lesbian doesn't have a problem with the TG community. She's very TG friendly, and is active in the LGBT community. She attends a Unitarian church that has had lesbian pastors in the past. And she's bi. So why would she say that to me if she had a problem with it?

The particular woman you are referring to may not have an issue with any LGBT thing, but remember that the majority of the women who are discussed here on these boards are not like your friend. You and I both know what she said was said in jest and that she did not think in any way that you were a lesbian (especially if she was bi...). But here is the point. When people come on these boards and cry about their SO not accepting them often it is because of something like what is being discussed here.

"Are you gay?" No but I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body under a covering of women's extremely sexy clothing. When one says "I am a lesbian" it infers that they are homosexual (by definition). So it isn't a huge leap for the woman to then assume that somewhere along the line you really want to be a woman and what do women like sexually in 90% of the cases? Men.

Labels are out there. There is no getting around them. I am sure if there were any lesbians on this board they would be offended with the flippancy in which men (yes look down you are a man) lay claim to something that they would not believe you have the right to claim.

Suck it up people you are straight men. You like having sex with females and you have male anatomy. That is straight. THink about it the next time you post here and say "My wife just doesn't get it". You aren't helping her "get it" when you throw such flippant terms around.

[sometimes_miss]

I'm on the fence with this one. I guess you could use the term 'male lesbian' for me, because in my mind, I self identify as a female, even though I know that I am neither physically female, nor think as one or perceive the world as a woman does. So when I interact with women, personally or intimately, I see myself doing so as one as well, even though I try very hard to avoid giving that away because I know how much it is repulsive to women (witness the description in another thread of the instant effect of nausea one woman had when seeing pics of her boyfriend on his phone dressed as a female and interacting as one).

[kendra_gurl]

To be a lesbian you MUST be a female so it is stupid to
have such a notion you are a lesbian male in your head.

So many male CDers have this fantasy that they are lesbian when dressed up with their female
partners and wives when in reality the women are only appeasing your delicate male egos.

The bottom line is Lesbians don't want to be with men, they only want to be with other females!

We are talking about a comedian so don't take it so seriously Melody.

The bottom line is SOME of us CD's while enfemme mode only want to be with females so its just an easy way to convey we are not Gay or BI we are lesbians. Of course we know its a stretch but who cares

[ReineD]

Strong opinions are encouraged but there seems to have been some flat out mean posts lately throughout this forum.

Again, this is subjective. A person can read a post and find it informative albeit strongly worded (especially when people use capital letters or bold type), while for another it might push buttons and they will think it is mean. Communication is not all about how a thought is delivered. Fifty percent is about how it is received, and there can be a vast difference between the two especially when reading a typed message where there is no tone of voice or body language to convey more accurately the deliverer's state of mind. Also, you need to take into consideration vast differences in writing styles and also differences in people's abilities to convey the totality of what they mean, including their emotion.

Sometimes I'll see people arguing with each other, where I don't see much difference in what they're saying. :p

[Debutante]

I think he is saying that he is a crossdresser, identifying as a woman, who likes women; that he is male most of the time -- hence 'male lesbian'
But then many of us transgender who dress and femulate and be women, who love women, feel they are 'lesbian', or "woman identified" in some
way, shape or form (real lesbians may not accept this... but hey, we need our space too!).
I certainly feel that way sometimes.... and my wife identified as a lesbian some years ago....

[Lorileah]

its just an easy way to convey we are not Gay or BI we are lesbians. Of course we know its a stretch but who cares

so maybe the word "straight" would be more informative? Let me ask a question on this. A man comes to you in a bar and asks if you would like to go with him. You reply "No I am a male lesbian." Now from a man's aspect isn't that just making things worse? Now he wants to WATCH you be a male lesbian. Whereas if you say "no thank you I am straight and prefer being with a woman." tells him you have absolutely no kink he might be interested in.

Now a question for me...why am I even trying to explain this?

[kimdl93]

Male lesbian, my wife is female gay, whatever...to borrow from Rosanne Barr (again), perhaps I'm a dyslexic gay cross dresser...

[Ann Thomas]

I think Eddie uses the term 'male lesbian' because it does make one stop and think, gets people to smile, and gets the point across. Eddie is brilliantly intelligent and puts his whole heart into whatever he does.

In my opinion, his appearance on The Good Wife is a new image he is honing for getting involved in European politics. (He is planning on entering politics in about 9 years, roughly.) He started developing this image when he took on the character of Doug Rich a few years ago for the series The Riches. This is how he appeared when I met him a couple of years ago (picture below.)

Ann

[DebbieL]

To be a lesbian you MUST be a female so it is stupid to
have such a notion you are a lesbian male in your head.

So many male CDers have this fantasy that they are lesbian when dressed up with their female
partners and wives when in reality the women are only appeasing your delicate male egos.

The bottom line is Lesbians don't want to be with men, they only want to be with other females!

There are a few key distinctions I think apply.

If you look like a woman and smell like a woman that's a good START.

If you can spend an hour or two in foreplay, bringing your partner to many orgasms using your fingers, mouth, and toys, that's a good indicator.

If you can satisfy both yourself and your partner, without ever pulling your "pee-wee" out of your panties, then you might actually come close.

Medody is correct though. A true lesbian would want to do wonderful things for her partner as well, and this would include going down and bringing her partner to multiple orgasms using her fingers, mouth, and toys. But the one thing she DOESN'T want is a "hot dog".

On the other hand, many bisexual women find CDs and TGs to be very desirable, if they can provide the best of both Lesbian sex AND straight sex. The best of Lesbian sex is that their TG/CD partners can do all the wonderful things their Lesbian partners do, and for as long and as intense. The best of straight sex is that she can get you off in 90 seconds or less with a vibrator while you are dressed.

I have had Lesbian lovers, and I have had several lovers who, for better or worse, said I was like a Lesbian. My first regular lover never saw my "hot dog", partly because I knew I was too small for her. She was Bi, and she publicly referred to me as her Lesbian Lover, often as a compliment, but around men, as a dig.

My first wife, after about 2 years of almost exclusively making love Lesbian Style, started saying "I'm not a Lesbian". She dressed like one, lived with one, and looked and acted more like a dyke. In reality, she was asexual, until she met Jerry, who didn't want sex. After that, she went crazy trying to seduce him.

Another lover was Bi, and brought several of her Lesbian Lovers home. At first they only wanted me to get dressed and watch, but when they saw what I did to my lover, they wanted some of the same. Ironically, one girl thought that she might be Bi after spending time with me, but when she had to deal with a real man who wanted "real" sex, things started to break down.

In the last 20 years, I've had "real" (intercourse/coitus), maybe 10 times, the last was over 6 years ago. I wear a condom because I don't want to mess up my clothes, and having my wife tease me with a vibrator while I'm dressed in something really ****tty - major turn-on.

All of my lovers after my first wife have been able to make me multi-orgasmic. Often they do it without ever seeing "pee-wee", and often I don't even get an erection. It literally LOOKS like a clit under the panties.

In my top-10 list of favorite sex acts, the usual heterosexual act doesn't even take the top 20. There are a dozen lesbian activities that top the list. Bondage is high on my list, but only when I'm dressed up and I'm the "Damsel in Distress". I'll tie my partner up if that's what she likes. The top 6 involve pleasing my partner, and none of them involve taking down my panties.

Even in my teens, I was very popular with the girls because I loved to kiss, hug, hump, and please them with my hands and mouth, but if they tried to reach into my pants, I'd be too ticklish and innocent to enjoy it. I didn't want "boy sex" even as a hand job, because I was afraid if I enjoyed it, I wouldn't want to be a girl anymore (silly me). I believed that if I "saved myself", that I could have the sex change - that somehow the approvals, resources, and actions would come.

Sadly, they never did.

Even when I conceived my Son, my Wife had me get fully dressed in a corset, stockings, and heels, and she was dressed the same. She tied me to the bed, completely gagged me, pulled the condom off the head-board, threw it in the trash, and then blind-folded me and told me that we weren't going to need the condom. I was being raped, but once I surrendered to it and let myself enjoy it, it was the best sex I'd ever had. It's still one of my favorite memories. My wife knew that this was about the ONLY way she could get me to believe that I got her pregnant.

Still, I have no illusions that I would be the perfect partner for a true Lesbian. On the other hand, many Lesbians know that their loves are bisexual, and they get very nervous when their lovers see me. They know that I can give a bisexual what she wants - without having to have two partners. However, on a few occasions, they have ended up needing a "Real Man" (someone with a nice large one) - and he didn't want to share. After that, I always checked to make sure that she could be satisfied with a nice big toy.

I think that most CDs and TGs who say they are "Lesbian" are indicating that they only like to make love while dressed, and only want to make love to women while dressed as women. But I'm guessing that most of them still want to do some of the usual boy-things with their boy toy. Great for a bisexual woman, not so great for a true Lesbian.

[Rianna Humble]

He did say that he's a "Male Lesbian" in an interview with Jon Stewart in the Daily Show back in 2002-2003. Also, he's a comedian so don't take everything he says too seriously.. it was a joke even though it's half true.

Yes, the first half is true

[LilSissyStevie]

Saying that a relationship is "straight" just because of the presence of a penis and a vagina is as informative as saying that someone is "male" just because of the presence of a Y chromosome. It works most of the time but not always. When there isn't a word for something, we have to resort to metaphors, similes, symbols and signs. It's like being a poet (or Eddie Izzard) at an aspie convention around here sometimes.

This works both ways too. Before I got married to my current wife, I was in an LTR with a woman that had a "thing" for gay porn, both visual and written. She liked to roleplay gay sex with me. I could accommodate her as long as I got to be the bottom. Except for the fact that I'm not attracted to dudes, I'm as gay as they come. Figure that one out. I couldn't crossdress around her because she wasn't attracted to feminine guys, just gay ones. It wasn't until a year or so ago that I learned there was a name for her particular "fetish": girlfag. A girlfag is described as a "gay man trapped in a womans body" or sometimes as a woman attracted to gay and/or effeminate males. The opposite of that is a guydyke or a "lesbian trapped in a mans body" (sort of like a male lesbian) or a guy attracted to lesbians and/or masculine women. Girlfags and girlfag fantasies are a lot more common than I ever would have thought. Even my wife admits she fantasizes about having a real penis sometimes. But she never thinks of herself as being anything but a woman, just as I always see myself as male (sort of). So that is the only sense that our relationship is "straight."

[docrobbysherry]

I'm trying to remember the "double negative" rule from my 6th grade English class.

If I remember it correctly, I may be a, "Female lesbian"?

[Melody Moore]

First, I agree with Melody. It's a fantasy that combines the sexual desire to be a woman with wanting to be with a woman. The term 'male lesbian' is not accurate, since 'lesbian' refers to a sexual attraction one woman has for another.

But second, I've come up with a new term we can all use to describe a male whose sexual fantasy is to be a woman WITH a woman: "dreemian". No one can ever argue about the term's ambiguity (like "male lesbian"), and following is the reason I propose "dreemian":

The term "lesbian" was constructed in the 20th Century to describe homosexual women. It is derived from an ancient Greek poetess, Sappho, who was born on the island of Lesbos in Greece and who wrote about her love of other women.

So, I propose using the term, "dreemian", after "Cecil Dreeme", a 19th century novel by Theodore Winthrop. The story's protagonist falls in love with a person he thought was a man (Cecil Dreeme), but who turns out to be a woman thought dead who is in hiding at the college they are attending. The novel's philosophical discussions center around the nature of male/female, manly/unmanly, womanly/unwomanly, and effeminate and langourous behavior.

http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/col...shsq/voices/cd.

I think the term "dreemian" is apt, since it can also be seen as an alternative spelling to "dream" which is another word for fantasy.

Well said Reine, it is nice to see that someone gets it

The bottom line is lesbians don't usually want anything to do with someone that has a penis
or is male even just for a smidgen of even the tiniest part of their lives. The minute a lesbian
sees the male side of a trans-woman it is all over. Personally I don't have this issue since
the lesbians I know see me as a natal female anyway because they know I am intersex. And
that it was a huge mistake that I was ever surgically assigned the sex of a male. I am very
well accepted by my local Lesbian group and partake in all the functions. And some girls have
told me that there are M-F transgendered people in the community that they cannot accept
as being female - so they also have their own ideas about what is really male & what is female.

Another great example are M-F tranny chasers or trans admirers to be more polite. These men
cannot claim to be straight if they want to perform oral sex on you or have you perform anal sex
on them. None of this is my cup of tea, so needless to say that they got told I was not interested.

Many men have contacted me claiming to be straight, but when I told then I was pre-op they then
admitted to me they had no issues, most admitting they were bicurious or bisexual, so they are not
heterosexual like they claim to be. Because they want a trans woman who looks like a real woman
because to them and it is more socially acceptable. The amount of guys that have tried to talk me
out of GRS/SRS has also really shocked me I never realised that there was so many men out there
that had these types fantasies about trans women with gay tendencies and I say this because they
don't really want to have sex with me as a female, they want me to have gay type sex with them as
a male which is something that I simply cannot do - it does not turn me on one single bit, but neither
does penetrative type sex with another female.

For me it is about the softness, gentleness, emotional intimacy that only two women can really share with each
other. I don't see how a CD/TV who isn't on HRT can even come close to that because there are huge changes
that you go through if you are on hormones that make that whole experience completely different especially on
an emotional level. Softer and much more sensitive skin without course male body hair and facial hair stubble also
makes a huge difference when you are in bed with a woman in a lesbian relationship. I was talking to a lesbian friend
recently who told me that she still thought she was bisexual and still liked being with guys, but the minute a guy
kissed her and she felt the stubble it was over and now she realises that she is in fact a lesbian who wants to be
with a real woman.

Being a female is much more than just dressing up as a female and claiming "I am a lesbian". For a start to get a
gender identity recognition certificate as a female if you are a birth male, then you have to be living full-time as
a female, on hormone therapy and under the care of a psychologist who makes that identification themselves to
support your claims.

However I can't expect a CDer to understand any of this, because they have never been on hormones
to know how things really are different in a real lesbian relationship, both physically and emotionally.

All of my lovers after my first wife have been able to make me multi-orgasmic. Often they do it without ever seeing "pee-wee", and often I don't even get an erection. It literally LOOKS like a clit under the panties.

Who cares about what you think 'it' looks like? To me and to other woman it is still a penis regardless - so get use to it.

CDers are living a fantasy and way out of touch with if they think they are a lesbian male.

I think Reine's suggestion about identifying this group as dreemian is very appropriate by the way

[Sophie86]

The particular woman you are referring to may not have an issue with any LGBT thing, but remember that the majority of the women who are discussed here on these boards are not like your friend. You and I both know what she said was said in jest and that she did not think in any way that you were a lesbian (especially if she was bi...).

So you think this thread is a serious discussion about whether MtF CDs who prefer women are really females, and therefore are really lesbians. That's what you think the discussion is about?

But here is the point. When people come on these boards and cry about their SO not accepting them often it is because of something like what is being discussed here.

That's their problem. My SO likes me just fine, whether I jokingly refer to myself as a "male lesbian" or not.

When one says "I am a lesbian" it infers that they are homosexual (by definition). So it isn't a huge leap for the woman to then assume that somewhere along the line you really want to be a woman and what do women like sexually in 90% of the cases? Men.

No, I would say it's a huge freakin' leap to go from "I'm a 'male lesbian'" to "I'm a gay male." The former is obviously a way of saying, "When I'm dressed, I still like women." It has nothing to do with wanting a man.

I am sure if there were any lesbians on this board they would be offended with the flippancy in which men (yes look down you are a man) lay claim to something that they would not believe you have the right to claim.

And yet, my friend had no problem with flippantly applying the term to me. I think we should let lesbians speak for themselves. Some of them might have a sense of humor.

Suck it up people you are straight men.

NO!! REALLY???? Thank you for solving what has been a life-long puzzle for me!

When you say 'people', are you including all the pre-op TS's too? They're also men, because they have that anatomy? I'm sure they'll be happy to know that.

And I guess you also have a problem with the way we address each other using feminine pronouns, too, right? And the way we refer to each other as 'girl'? We're not really women, so we should not be entitled to those forms of address either, according to your logic.

In the British navy, back in the days of sailing ships, any officer in command of a sailing ship was addressed as 'Captain', regardless of whether he actually held that rank or not. He was considered a 'Captain by courtesy', though not by rank. It was bad form to refer to him any other way. On this board, I am a woman by courtesy. I expect to be referred to using feminine pronouns, and feminine nouns. Since I am a woman by courtesy, and I prefer sex with women, I am also a lesbian by courtesy.

Using courtesy, though, is always at your discretion.

[vetobob9]

I would think that is a MtF undergoes SRS, they would be lesbians if they still preferred women. Especially after they had undergone the surgery.

[NathalieX66]

Once I've gotten a few more rounds of laser done, i'm stepping into some lesbian bars, I'm going to try to blend in.. It's really more of a confidence issue for me. I've got 3-5 months of hair left on the front side to not need a wig anymore. I don't know what willl happen yet.
My last foray into a lez bar was me in a navy minidress, and I stood out as a CD'er.
In reality, I just want to be one of the girls, so I will tone it down a bit. My goal in life is to be as gender ambiguous as possible.

[Melody Moore]

When you say 'people', are you including all the pre-op TS's too? They're also men,
because they have that anatomy? I'm sure they'll be happy to know that.

No they were never men at all, they were however "males at birth", but have been identified by medical
professionals as being a transsexual female and there is a huge distinction between this and a crossdresser.

Even though I tried really hard and managed to fool a lot of people I was a really a man, I was born intersex
and never was a man to begin with - I was an intersex child at birth and assigned as a male at the age of 3.

While some people might consider them to still be male because of the boy bits, a medical diagnosis has been
made and the 'female' undergoes therapy and treatments to correct misalignment between a person's gender
identity and their physical sex and sexology this is something a crossdresser never does. So I don't know how
they can claim to be a female or a lesbian in the first place.

[LilSissyStevie]

The bottom line is lesbians don't usually want anything to do with someone that has a penis...

That's so untrue it's funny. They just don't want the penis attached to a male.

I don't know why some people have to wander out of their self-imposed ghetto to yell in our faces, "YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US!." OK. Fine. We get it. You've made your point. Now bugger off!

Oh, and thanks Reine for creating a new epithet for the haters to hurl around.

[Melody Moore]

That's so untrue it's funny. They just don't want the penis attached to a male.

Yeah, really farkin' hilarious eh?

Yes there are many lesbians who really like using dildos, and you are right it is mostly the person connected
to the penis that is the real issue. In my lesbian group for which I am an admin, crossdressers do not cut it as
women and this has been expressed by quite a few of members many times. But they have no issues with the
Male to Female Transsexuals being part of the group and attending social functions. So I wonder why that is eh?

Could it be because they don't feel safe and have an issue with a guy who dresses up pretending to be a woman?

So how many M-F crossdressers do you see here in this lesbian group? I can tell you now there
are zitch, however there are at least three pre-op trans-women there they do accept as females.

Oh, and thanks Reine for creating a new epithet for the haters to hurl around.

I also wanted to comment how you try and lay the blame on Reine for this. I really think this section of the
crossdressing community only has themselves to blame to be really honest because this IS how others see them.

My experiences with Reine since joining this forum have been very positive and eye opening. I find this natal female
to be very well informed & to the best of my knowledge IS in a relationship with a M-F crossdressing partner. So she
is your ally here, not your enemy who I believe speaks a lot of truth.

And since I have been a member of this forum, I have never known Reine to make any ill-informed comments. In
fact it is quite the opposite, usually she backs up her comments as she has done with facts, just like the few
facts of life that I have just pointed out. I have found Reine to be very fair, open minded and non-judgemental
and I always enjoy reading her posts because they usually are very informative as she has also found some of
mine to also be.

Just recently we were discussing the topic the amount of TS women who are lesbians, we got a little off topic
discussing the why so many men out there who claim to be straight chase trans women. And what I have also
noticed is that crossdressers also live in a fantasy about the men they date, thinking they are being treated as
real women.

I also found the same trend when I had it written up on my profile that I was TS on a social networking/dating site.

The interesting thing was all the guys who contacted me had listed their sexual orientations as "Straight". However
about 80% of them had no issues admitting to me they were either bisexual or bi-curious & had no issues about being
with someone like me. It was a very interesting and eye-opening exercise because many revealed they had repressed
gender issues and fantasies. Eventually I got sick of it and removed the info about my gender status from my profile.

So I posted this comment talking about my experiences with men who sought out TS women and Reine replied
with this comment highlighting the fact along with links to support her statement that many crossdressers are
kidding themselves if they think the men they are dating are treating them like a female. The reality is these men
see the CDer as a gay cross-dressing male. It is a similar thing with men who go out of their way to find pre-op
trans women nowadays thanks to she-male porn - this isn't what I seek, but this is what is really going on.

I have come to the conclusion that crossdressers do often kid themselves about many things, they also wander
in and out of my life now as the coordinator for my support group trying to find out where they fit in the gender
spectrum. And they also kid themselves quite a bit in their relationships with both males and females from what
I can see. You can disagree with this if you want but these are just my few observations and experiences.

I keep an open mind to everything, but I have seen enough evidence to support the belief that M-F Crossdressers
and natal females along with trans women are world's apart. Lesbians have less issues being around trans women
than they do crossdressers and as you can see I have seen this for my self as a member of a lesbian group.