Bisexuality & Crossdressing

[whowhatwhen]

Aye.
Tis' a sore spot for a lot and especially confusing.

But yeah, the more "straight" you say you are the less straight you actually are.
I remember buying into that whole "raaarrrrghhh! REAL MEN DO (x)" until I realized it was just internalized homophobia, then I evened out and stopped pretending.

Feels nice not to fake masculinity, not that I'm overtly effeminate but I don't feel "forced" to put up a fake front either.
I suspect a lot of men are the same way, "manliness" just being a way to hide internalized homophobia.

Sometimes I wish I was 100% gay though, finding a partner would be a helluva lot easier than trying to explain CD and not wanting the male role in bed.

[Sophie_C]

Going back to the overall calling this or that, I really think it doesn't serve any purpose. Especially when people are figuring things out, being boxed in by a label is the WORST thing you can do to yourself. I would not be surprised if a number of "gay" men are actually bi to a degree, but once they've got that label, women are a permanent "no-no" and they're boxed out of that, just like a lot of bi men have to not talk about one side of themselves, since bi currently means "not accepting that they're gay yet" to most people in the US.

Just be yourself, be monogamous and whatever happens, happens.

[Miriam-J]

I'm reminded of a scene from the movie "Kinsey" about the authors of the Kinsey Reports. In the scene, Alfred Kinsey expresses that he's found that everyone can fit their sexual proclivities on a numeric scale from totally straight to totally homosexual. Most people, if totally honest, fit somewhere between the extremes - in other words, bisexuality is pretty darned normal. In recent years it has become much more acceptable for young people to admit this, but it's still rare in those of us who are 50+. I've been involved in activities where girl-girl action is just fine, but guys have to be careful to avoid even casual contact - very silly, and apparently just because of artificial limits imposed by our society and upbringing. These biases are deeply ingrained in me as well, but I'm beginning to recognize them and appreciate them for what they are.

The parallels with crossdressing are clear as well. We have preconceived notions that girls can dress like guys, but guys can't dress as girls. This is reinforced harshly by society, so those of us who like to accept the natural freedoms live in fear of the many who will be intolerant.

Reality sucks sometimes, but it's still reality. Society seems to be softening more rapidly on sexuality than on crossdressing, but perhaps that will follow - until the next reactionary cycle.

Is our sexuality influenced by how we dress. I don't think so, but don't presume to be all knowing. I suspect that our willingness to buck societal pressure in one arena makes us more willing to go against the flow in the other. In other words, crossdressing could establish the right frame of mind for us to accept our innate bisexual tendencies.

Miriam

[SFRobin]

The people that identify as bisexual are not making excuses for who they are, but the people who identify as "straight except when..." are definitely not smelling the coffee.

There's a million ways to express your sexuality but can we all agree that one is either straight or not straight?

I think that Melissa sums it up well. There pretty much is yes or no.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

To clarify to Jive Turkey & JodyCD on how this can be confusing.
Please don't deliberately misinterpet my meaning, there is no need to invent controversary, when plainly none was intended.

So, let me understand this. The more plausible thing is that I came to a thread that was already 10+ pages deep, saw your post and thought, "hey why not find a way to respond to this spinning it in a negative way that will really shake things up?" as opposed to, you perhaps didn't state your point in the way that you meant it?

In your other response to me, you said you didn't deserve what I'd said. Perhaps not, I did concede to badtranny that perhaps you didn't word your post the way you intended it. However, you can't make that point and then turn around and accuse me of purposefully spinning it to create controversy. Fairness is a two way street.

The crazy thing here is that I actually agree with half of the point you're trying to make, this here:

I am just saying whatever you are, own it.
When one isn't honest with themselves, it is harmful to them and sometimes hurtful to others.

^^^I 100% agree with. Where I'm still having a little difficulty understanding or agreeing with you is when you take your position on some of these terms, specifically, pansexual, bisexual, bicurious, and asexual. You say own it, be who you are. And yet then the people who identify with these terms you say are candy coating it? But aren't these terms by definition owning who they are?

I'm not going to lie, some of these I've never heard of, and if they came up in this thread I missed them somewhere in these 12 pages, such as Sweetsexual, which I even just googled and found no results for, and bigaystraightual, which I googled and found only one result which was from this forum and was clearly intended as a joke, even including the term "hehe." Trisexual from my experience has always been a bit of a tongue in cheek joke as well, as in "I'll try anything once."

I could break down all of them in such a way but I won't; the point I'm getting at is this: aren't these all examples of someone essentially saying, no I'm not really straight, I do have other attractions and here's how I define them? Isn't that owning it? Isn't that being honest with themselves at least to some degree more than saying "I'm totally straight but I'm attracted to men when I crossdress" is? I think so.

[JulieK1980]

Sheesh, let's ease up on Momarie. Maybe she didn't make her point very well, but I understood her. She isn't targeting Bisexual people, she's merely calling out those people who openly express non straight desires while still professing to be straight. That's all. The people that identify as bisexual are not making excuses for who they are, but the people who identify as "straight except when..." are definitely not smelling the coffee.

There's a million ways to express your sexuality but can we all agree that one is either straight or not straight?

Perhaps it's a sensitive topic to me, (I get tired of hearing, "you're not bi, you're just gay and in denial") It irritates me, when other people try to define my sexuality for me, as though they can reach into the inner recesses of my brain and pluck out information that I somehow missed. Nope. I can read my own mind thanks. Sort of the same as those that decide to tell me whether I'm a CD or TS. I can't figure it out for myself, how the heck is someone that isn't me supposed to know? But, I suppose you are right, and I shouldn't read to much into Momarie's statements, and I do think I get her point in reference to those that say, "I'm straight except when..."

and certainly, I agree with you that one is either straight or not straight.

[whowhatwhen]

Perhaps it's a sensitive topic to me, (I get tired of hearing, "you're not bi, you're just gay and in denial") It irritates me, when other people try to define my sexuality for me, as though they can reach into the inner recesses of my brain and pluck out information that I somehow missed. Nope. I can read my own mind thanks. Sort of the same as those that decide to tell me whether I'm a CD or TS. I can't figure it out for myself, how the heck is someone that isn't me supposed to know? But, I suppose you are right, and I shouldn't read to much into Momarie's statements, and I do think I get her point in reference to those that say, "I'm straight except when..."

and certainly, I agree with you that one is either straight or not straight.

You know what's funny about that?
It's always spun as you being gay, no one ever questions if you're straight or not.

"BI? Are you sure you aren't just a confused straight?"

[ReineD]

There's a million ways to express your sexuality but can we all agree that one is either straight or not straight?

That seems as if it should be easy enough. lol

I also see Momarie's point. I have a hard time with, "I'm straight, except when ..." :p

I love this very basic approach: "I am attracted to (pick one): opposite sex, same sex, both, neither, myself.

[AussiegirlCD]

An interesting thread indeed! The one thing that seems clear about sexuality is that there's nothing clear about sexuality. I couldn't care less about a label, I sometimes like to **** guys, I also like to **** genetic girls, but then I consider a ts/tg/cd to be the gender they aspire to, so if I sleep with a mtf and I condider myself a girl, am I a lesbian???... oh the tangled webs we weave for our own entrapment!
Enjoy yourself regardless of someone else's perceptions of conformity, you are all beautiful, brave, admirable people, who have acknowledged your desire to define your own identity in the face of society and it's pointless gender roles, that alone is worth a pat on the back, it's your life, cd/ts/tg/tv/mtf/ftm/omg, don't be an acronym, be yourself and tell the haters/knockers to f*@k themselves!

Love,
Pheobe <3

[ReineD]

... but then I consider a ts/tg/cd to be the gender they aspire to, so if I sleep with a mtf and I condider myself a girl, am I a lesbian???...

This would be a same-sex attraction. You'd be attracted to "both" if you are also into GGs, in the "opposite-sex, same-sex, both, neither, or myself" array of possible choices outlined in the post above yours.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I also see Momarie's point. I have a hard time with, "I'm straight, except when ..." :p

I want to reiterate, this isn't what I was disagreeing with. I also see this point. And agree with it, and have said so!

She made a second, and in my opinion, separate point, and that was the point I was disagreeing with.

Point One: Own up to your sexuality, be honst with your self, Don't say "I'm straight, except...." Agreed!

Point Two: Don't candy coat your sexuality with terms like Bi, bicurious, pansexual, asexual, trisexual, obviouslyajokesexual Strongly Disagree!

[ReineD]

I also agree that being bi is not candy coating. There really are people who are attracted to both genders.

But, I've just posted in another thread, where the idea has been brought forward (an author published a book about his own experience) that some men just have sex with women in order to put up a front. They're not really into these women, but they don't want people to know they're gay. These men would be candy-coating it if they told everyone they were bi:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2759479

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

But, I've just posted in another thread, where the idea has been brought forward (an author published a book about his own experience) that some men just have sex with women in order to put up a front. They're not really into these women, but they don't want people to know they're gay. These men would be candy-coating it if they told everyone they were bi:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2759479

I would agree with you if men "on the down low" as the book is focused on, identified as bi, but they don't. Being openly bisexual would pretty much negate the "down low" aspect as the idea is basically "I'm sexually attracted to men, but shhh! let's keep this on the down low..." If they were bi, then there's nothing down low, it's all up high where everyone can see it. So really, "down low" is just another version of "Straight, but..." except for even worse because they're purposefully misleading women into being their cover.

[ReineD]

Ryan, let me ask you: I've read here and there, the idea that even among bi people, there is a preference or a tendency towards one sex more than another, which leads me to believe that sex can habitually be more intense with one gender rather than the other. I remember once reading that often, people start out believing they are opposite sex attracted, then they discover same sex attraction and enter a stage where they identify as bi, only to realize years later that their bisexuality was a stepping stone to accepting themselves as gay.

And then there are those who prefer either men or women, but who will have sex with the other gender occasionally. Might it be that some bi CDs just prefer sex with men (they certainly seem to fantasize about it a lot here), but it is easier for them to say they are bi? In other words, sex with a woman is OK but it doesn't rock their world like sex with a guy would?

[irene9999]

I guess if you had to categorize me, I'd say I'm bi too. I've only been with women sexually, but lately I've had more of chance to dress up and I find myself attracted to other CDs and even men sometimes when I'm dressed. I like flirting with men while en femme and might even want to be with one eventually, but as a guy (which is how i live most of the time anyway) I'm not attracted to them in the least. It's very strange, for me I'd say it's more of a fetish thing, but only when I cross dress.

[steph1965]

I am very bi. There is sometimes nothing better then to have strong man hands exploring me.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Ryan, let me ask you: I've read here and there, the idea that even among bi people, there is a preference or a tendency towards one sex more than another, which leads me to believe that sex can habitually be more intense with one gender rather than the other. I remember once reading that often, people start out believing they are opposite sex attracted, then they discover same sex attraction and enter a stage where they identify as bi, only to realize years later that their bisexuality was a stepping stone to accepting themselves as gay.

And then there are those who prefer either men or women, but who will have sex with the other gender occasionally. Might it be that some bi CDs just prefer sex with men (they certainly seem to fantasize about it a lot here), but it is easier for them to say they are bi? In other words, sex with a woman is OK but it doesn't rock their world like sex with a guy would?

In response to your last question, of course. I am absolutely certain that this is the case for some, and I think some folks have even responded to this thread saying as much. There is also a strong case of those who do feel this way but are in denial about it to themselves. Doing a little math here, there are some CDs on here who say that they could live full time as a woman (A) and also that they find themselves attracted to men much more intensely when they are dressed as women (B), then there is at least some logic that suggests that A + B could = strongly attracted to men (C). I think the problem we run into both in the real world and on this board is assuming that this is true for all or most CDers when it actually differs in intensity for everyone on some level.

As far as the first part, the stepping stone aspect, I've heard this as well, and it certainly is the reason I often see women citing as why they won't date men who identify as bisexual, because they figure they will eventually decide they're actually really gay and just on their way to accepting that. I personally haven't done much research on this detail myself but I often wonder if it is a chicken/egg type debate. Is it really that men afraid to come out as gay will come out as bi first, to test the waters, or is that once a man has lived as openly bisexual, he starts to perhaps feel like he is more accepted, and more likely to find a long term or fulfilling relationship with another man, due to the fact that straight women are often hesitant to date a bisexual man, and thus tends to end up eventually living more as gay anyway.

I'm guessing the truth is that there's not one right answer, but as with all things a lot of shades of grey in between. I will admit that I know a lot more women who identify as bi than I do men. I don't think it's that bi men are any less likely I think it's just they're less likely to be open about it, to the public or to themselves. I of course have also read and heard the same things you've mentioned about differing levels of attraction and desire, and that makes sense. As you've said in other, you are not equally attracted to all men, just as I am not equally attracted to all women. And then amongst the bisexuals I know there are lots of different combinations, for example I know a girl who says she prefers sex with women but relationships with men.

[seanmuscle]

Ryan, let me ask you: I've read here and there, the idea that even among bi people, there is a preference or a tendency towards one sex more than another, which leads me to believe that sex can habitually be more intense with one gender rather than the other. I remember once reading that often, people start out believing they are opposite sex attracted, then they discover same sex attraction and enter a stage where they identify as bi, only to realize years later that their bisexuality was a stepping stone to accepting themselves as gay.

And then there are those who prefer either men or women, but who will have sex with the other gender occasionally. Might it be that some bi CDs just prefer sex with men (they certainly seem to fantasize about it a lot here), but it is easier for them to say they are bi? In other words, sex with a woman is OK but it doesn't rock their world like sex with a guy would?

exactly renne. finally we agree!

[Delila]

Some people that are not aware of pansexuality may categorize my sexuality as bisexual. Which is fine and dandy. However, I have an attraction to all gender identities not just limited to the male and female gender identities.

I agree with chantal. My sexual attractions are not merely limited to gender or sexual preference more to what is appealing when I am in the mood.

[ReineD]

exactly renne. finally we agree!

I never disagreed that some CDers prefer men. But I disagreed vehemently with you, when you said or implied that "all" CDers do. :p

[joannemarie barker]

You only have to read some replies to know for a fact that not all CDs prefer men.many here admit to being grossed out by the thought of being intimate with a man.i realised long ago that the dressing and my sexuality were to totally seperate things.i identify as bisexual because I am not because I want to feel like a woman.i identify with something reine said earlier.sex with a woman is ok but sexy with a man is,well it's my bag.and when I have sex there are no clothes in the picture

[CONSUELO]

There is an interesting recent report in the UK press about a boy who at the age of three told his mother that he was a girl. She now dressed and acts "girly" whereas before the age of three "he" was more interested in what society would consider boyish things. She is a patient of the Tavistock Institute in London which is known for pioneering work in psychology. i find it interesting that the human mind can be so flexible. I don't think of myself as a girl but as a TV/CD but I have noticed that my feelings have changed and strengthened over the years. In my 20's I thought that I just had a fetish to dress in lingerie which would give me a sexual buzz. Now I find great comfort in dressing as a woman and behaving in more feminine ways. It all seems part of a spectrum or continuum as someone mentioned when referring to Kinsey's work. Also in my 20's I would have felt repulsed at the thought of having sexual relations with men whereas now, in my femme role, I have found such relations to be extremely satisfying and not at all strange. But I am sure that my particular "condition" is replicated by few others. We are like a series of overlapping circles with some things in common and other things that are not. My only regret is that my sexuality didn't gel for so long.

[lightfoot]

I'll weight in on this conversation late, as well as being my first post. Hello everyone! I identify as being bisexual. Even though I've never been with a man, I know I'd like to be. I'm very much attracted to women. Probably more so than guys. The difficult part (for me anyway) is to find the "right" guy. The mindset is very different, or I'm just defective. Things like gay porn do not appeal to me at all. Does that make me straight? I do not think so, because I know I love to explore being that inner girl The thing is. I love sensual romance in sex. I think that's easier to achieve with a woman. Most of the guy on guy porn I've seen is just too raw and brash. In my mind, I'm far from being gay, and I'm far too strange to be lumped into the straight crowd. I'm quite happy labeling myself as bisexual. I love everyone. And someday, yes someday, I do hope to unleash my desires with the right man. If not, I'll continue to be happy...just being me.

[anna36b]

There is a saying that goes don't knock it till you have tried it.

Speaking for just myself, there is nothing more fem and girly then having a guy appreciate how fem you are, how fem and girly you are dressed, how you interact with him, and how you are willing to submit to his desires and needs. The right guy will make you feel like you are all woman and then some!

Happy to be a bi girl

[Taya]

Good thread to find

I would now classify myself as pansexual - cos in my male state I am attracted to guys, girls, and everything in between. I find transgirls hot and transboys very cute. Love a good androgynous girl. But it's the way in which I'm attracted which is slightly different. When I am thinking more male, then my attraction to guys is pretty much strictly about ****. Nothing else is really pulling me to a guy. But when I am thinking in feminine, then I want to be held by a strong guy, and be on his arm, I want to feel his power on top of me, and hold him close as he climaxes, smell his manly scent... be looked after, all that kind of stuff. Funny old thing our brain and hormones.