Please stop me.

[Elizabeth Ann]

I hope some of you remember me. I am across the hall in the cross dressing section. In January, our 21 year old child announced to my wife and I that he/she was a transexual and wishes to transition to a woman. We have lots of questions and doubts, and generally worry that this is moving too fast. It is a recent development, though she now says she realizes this was repressed in her youth.

I was alarmed when earlier this month, she obtained a prescription for spironolactone from an endocrinologist on a first visit and with not other documentation at all. Thus began an on line conversation that has gone very badly. I am sick about it, and don't know what to do. I need help. Advice, complaints, suggestions, anything. I'm feeling desperate to make this better. Here is the exchange from David/Davin (who is still living as a man):

Dav:
Mom and Dad,
A***** and I have been talking and researching about options for kids in the future, and we've decided that it's a good idea for me to bank sperm. It seems IUI/IVF can be cheaper than adopting, and I think we'd like to keep that option open either way. However, I can't start hormones until after this is done, and although I've seen the endocrinologist and he's given me a prescription for a testosterone blocker, I can't afford the cost of sperm banking. I think we'll be able to cover storage costs in the future, but right now, the problem is the initial expense of sampling, testing, and storing. Depending on what clinic/company we go with, this can be anywhere around $400-600. I know it feels like I'm moving too fast, but it would mean a lot to me if you guys could trust my judgment and respect that this is my decision, and I've already made it. If you're comfortable with the idea, it would make everything a lot easier for me with some help financing this process. I also realize that this may be asking too much.

Me:
I have talked to your mother about this. She (and I) have lots of mixed and emotional feelings about this, as I am sure you assume. Is there a time when your mother and I could come over and talk to you and A***** about this? Honestly, I think it would be a good thing for all of us. I really want you and your mother to start talking to each other again.

We have stuff we are doing both Saturday and Sunday, but could we come over some evening next week? Also, could you give me the name of your endocrinologist?

Love you dearly,
Dad

Dav:
Look, I'm ready to talk about these things if you are. That means putting aside your doubts and fears and trusting that I know what I'm doing after having spent the past two years debating this with myself. I can't deal with your doubts on top of the other barriers to getting to a place where I'll be happy. If you're ready to have a conversation about meeting my goals, I'd be happy to have it. But if you just want to keep trying to slow me down and make me rethink things I've already spent months thinking about, well, I'm really tired of going into these "talks" with the hope that you'll accept it only to be repeatedly disappointed. I'm very patient, but I can only take so much.

Me:
This doesn't feel like patience. It feels like an ultimatum. We have had maybe four conversations over two months about this, and now you are demanding we embrace something that you now tell us you have been debating with yourself for two years. I was hurt by this, and then I was angry, and then I wanted to vomit. Now what? I don't think we can easily "put aside our doubts and fears" about such a monumental life change, at least not at this stage. Does that mean you no longer wish to talk to us?

You asked a specific question about sperm banking. Your mother feels strongly that she would like to have a conversation about this with both you and A*****. Are you willing to have that conversation, or do you hope we will just send money?

Dav:
I'm sorry, it's just that I've come to expect support and understanding from my parents, and so far, what I've received has felt like anything but. I'm willing to have this conversation with you, but every time we've had any conversation so far, I've come away feeling like we've made no progress. Honestly, I don't see why we can't do this over phone or email, but if you feel the need to talk face to face, we can do it next week on either Tuesday or Wednesday.

My own therapist advised: "Don't continue the conversation via email. There is no room for tone or nuance and it is so easy to escalate a discussion beyond what is intended." Which of course is very good advice. But I have this painful little fear down in the pit of my stomach that I am watching the slow disintegration of our family.

Sorry for the length of this, but I just don't have anyone else to talk to about this.

Liz

[Julia_in_Pa]

Elizabeth,


I know this is your child your speaking about but she is of legal age and what she feels she needs to do in order for her to feel whole is exactly what she's doing.
Deep in your heart Elizabeth you know she's right about what she feels she needs to do.
You and especially your wife first need to accept your child unconditionally and give love, compassion and support no matter what your feelings are on the subject.
If she has been debating transition with herself since 19 years of age can you imagine how long she has had these feelings?
Since she is so young she most likely knew she was not a he since she became aware of the difference.
Remember the earlier in life she transitions the more successful she will be in her life's endeavor's as her true self.
Please do not allow yourself or your wife to interfere with her transition.
If you love your child and I know you do, you and your wife have to stop the strangle hold on her.
Let her fly, let her live.


Julia

[sandra-leigh]

I do remember reading your earlier postings.

Under the circumstances, I do understand concern about what is happening and how quickly it is happening. But could you talk more about the hurt, and the anger, and the wanting to vomit ?

What Dav writes about "I can't deal with your doubts on top of the other barriers to getting to a place where I'll be happy." and similar -- that really is quite common in transsexuals. People do not become transsexuals on a whim: they do it because they must. Once they decide they must do these things, the choices for many many narrow to "Do or die". From Dav's perspective, you either take on the role of wanting Dav to (literally) die because you cannot stand the thought of Dav transitioning, or you take on the role of supporting Dav in transition. You are too close to Dav to be allowed the stance of being neutral or background.

Basically, in my estimation, you are going to lose your "son". If you cannot be supportive of your new daughter, you are going to lose her too.

There is potential to position yourself as supporting Dav but wanting the WPATH recommended process to be followed as it has been developed to have the least side effects. You might have to be open about how you already knew about WPATH and about how that was responsible for some of your concerns.

I would, though, point out that having written to Dav about how you wanted to vomit, then you are going to have to do a lot of fence-mending. Someone who is mostly concerned about the health and happiness of their child does not talk to their child that way, not under those circumstances.

Yes, Dav does appear to be rushing or pushing the process. And that is not so uncommon. Once people make up their minds, "therapy" and "getting letters" and even laws can be perceived as being unfair obstacles to be pushed out of the way as soon as possible.

Some of the local people I have talked to say that their experience with the (only) local person authorized to make recommendations to the health care system, consisted mostly of them visiting 3 times (the minimum) and repeating each time, "Yes, I want to do this. Yes I know what I am doing. No, I have not changed my mind." To those people, it seemed like a waste of $500 that could have gone towards their transition. I can see what they mean, even though I do not feel the same way myself about the process.

[TxKimberly]

Elizabeth,

I'm gonna to have to buck Julia here, pretty much on principles. It doesn't matter what her age is - she is still your child and quite frankly, you would be a really shitty parent if you didn't do your best to help your child make the best choices that you can. You haven't indicated that you intend to try and talk her out of it - only that you want to discuss it with her. As a parent of one adult child and two younger children, I can guess that you probably just want to satisfy yourself that she has thought it through and considered all of the ins and outs. As not only an older and more experienced person, but ALSO someone who has an understanding of the TG life, your child is making a foolish decision to not actively seek your advice.

Considering that you are her parent AND you are being asked to help finance this, you have every right to ask for a conversation on the matter. Your child has asked you to fork over a significant amount of money to finance something that you feel may be a bit rash, and all that you have asked for in return is a simple face to face conversation. That is an eminently reasonable request, and to have her give you a petulant, arrogant, and dismissive response is really not at all acceptable. Frankly the dismissive reply that you received would have really pissed me off in a major way.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Elizabeth, I can certainly appreciate you and your wife being typical concerning parents. I have been through that "recent empty nest situation" myself years ago and it is very difficult at that point to stop being a parent with authority to being a parent of an adult who will do as he/she pleases.

It is especially hard when we have the wisdom of our age and experience that the adult child is lacking. But trust me there is a very fine, thin fragile line between giving the counsel of wisdom and interfering.

One an adult child needs and seeks, while the other is deeply regretted by the child.

The sad part in all of this is that you and your wife are showing genuine interest in your child not making serious mistakes with his/her life. But the child sees the opposite as inferring parents.

Bottom line, you must do what you think is right as long as it is "counsel" and not edicts.

You could very easily loose your child if you push too far or cause him/her too much conflict or stress.

I would NOT pay for any of this including banking his sperm. He wants to be an adult so he needs to finance his own choices in life.

The most you can do is either give emotional support even if you disagree, give parental counsel in a non-threatening way then let your child make his/her own decisions, or tell your child he/she is dead wrong and that you will not support or accept his/her decision.

The latter will send your child away maybe for the rest of your life.

These are very hard choices and you have to weight what you know as right with what is right from your child's prospective.

What is more important to you - maintaining mutual love and respect for each others right to live their own life or standing your ground and loosing.

I am sure there have been some parents who have won that dichotomy but I have never seen one in my lifetime.

My heart goes out to ALL of you.

[sandra-leigh]

On counsel versus interfering: I am reminded of a column I read a few days ago, "I think my best friend should dump her fiance"

(David predicted that a friend's marriage would fail, and tried to stop the hurt. The marriage did fail, but...)

The net result of me attempting to horn in on my best friend’s matrimonial plans was zero, except for giving him a perma-grudge to nurse vis-Ã*-vis moi until the end of his days.

I predict a similar outcome in your case, if you attempt to say something to your friend. Unfortunately, painful though it is, sometimes we have to let those near and dear to us make their own mistakes, especially when it comes to the love/relationship/matrimonial department.

[Elizabeth Ann]

Under the circumstances, I do understand concern about what is happening and how quickly it is happening. But could you talk more about the hurt, and the anger, and the wanting to vomit ?
. . .
There is potential to position yourself as supporting Dav but wanting the WPATH recommended process to be followed as it has been developed to have the least side effects. You might have to be open about how you already knew about WPATH and about how that was responsible for some of your concerns.

I would, though, point out that having written to Dav about how you wanted to vomit, then you are going to have to do a lot of fence-mending. Someone who is mostly concerned about the health and happiness of their child does not talk to their child that way, not under those circumstances.

Yes, Dav does appear to be rushing or pushing the process. And that is not so uncommon. Once people make up their minds, "therapy" and "getting letters" and even laws can be perceived as being unfair obstacles to be pushed out of the way as soon as possible.

I apologize for not giving more context. I have told her about my cross dressing, in part to make it easier to discuss what I know, and hopefully to give my opinions more credence. I have told her that I will never reject her no matter what, but that I honestly have some concerns about this. Surely you are not suggesting that I lie to her about my feelings?

The hurt, anger and vomit remark was about my overwhelming sadness over this exchange. It had NOTHING to do with my feelings about transition, and she knows that.

I would be happy if she were to follow the WPATH guidelines. She has seen a psychologist four times, and declines to go back because she "already knows what she want to do." She knows some transgendered individuals on campus, but has never actually met a transexual. He tells me he has done some cross dressing in recent years, but there has been absolutely nothing even close to real life experience.

On the specific sperm bank request, we may wind up paying for it, just as we currently pay for his rent, food, and university. But his live-together girlfriend was in tears when she said she would stick by him. We are not so sure.

She may well be stronger, more centered, and stable than I was as a wreck of a 21 year old, but I will tell you that the certainty with which she clings to this decision feels a bit like fear to admit any doubt. Just as she, I must follow my own conscience.

Liz

[TxKimberly]

Sigh . . .

I very much like the responses offered by Sandra and Traci.

There has to be a happy medium doesn't there? As a parent, shouldn't you make some effort to help your children make the tough decisions? I couldn't agree more that there is a fine line between offering advice and interfering, but I dont think that asking for a single sit down conversation about it is crossing that line. Now if you have that conversation, and then keep trying to change her mind after she made it clear what her decision is, THEN you have crossed the line.

[Aprilrain]

Interesting, I'm glad you told your son about your CDing, I think to keep that hidden at this point would be pointless and hypocritical. I will use masculine pronouns since he is not yet full time. Your well within your "rights" as parents to disagree with your sons choice or have honest doubts and fears. I think your son would do well to continue with therapy and to find a support group where he can meet actual TSes. They will likely be older and he may feel he has nothing in common with them or that they are just plain too old to hang out with, he may lose interest in the group but at least he'd have a little more exposure to the realities of transition. I find it a little troubling that he "expects" support. What he should expect is to lose everyone and everything (not that 20 something's usually have a lot to lose other than family) he should expect, at his age, for transition to take years do to the lack of financial independence. This is the hard reality for most younger transitioners though there are so many other good reasons to transition as young as one can! I think $500 ought a buy you a talk however I wouldn't scold, cajole or badger, instead calmly tell him your fears and then leave it at that he is after all 21. I suspect that since your footing the bill for school you have expectations of some degree of academic success, if it were me I'd keep my end of the bargain (pay for school and rent) and expect he do the same regardless of the mood swings and crying fits. Lol! If your not comfortable with his decision to transition then don't pay for it that in and of its self will slow him down considerably.

Oh and I bet ya 10 to 1 the GF leaves! ; )

[Sally24]

" But I have this painful little fear down in the pit of my stomach that I am watching the slow disintegration of our family." Liz

As long as you all are talking that is not inevitable. I know you are footing most of her bills but you need to realize as parents that you no longer have any control. I've been there and its hard to shift into an advisory role. But she has expressed that she disagrees with your advise. It's time for you to offer support and talk about the future. Maybe an honest discussion of the year of Real Life Experience would be helpful to you both. Don't let any ultimatums be made by anyone involved. She may slow on her own once the hard work of transition starts. That's assuming that a full transition is even what she desires. There are plenty TS that live years as non-ops.

The most important thing you can do now is offer love and support.

[elizabethamy]

liz,

the specific request for $ for sperm banking sounds highly symbolic to me -- almost a test of your faith in Dav's decision. I would probably pay it to avoid a future such as "We could have had children if Dad had believed me when I said I was transsexual..." skip a rent payment or make him buy his/her own car insurance, but don't let this be held over your head forever...parenting is tough, I'm no expert with my own kids of similar ages, but that's my reaction. all the best.

other liz

[Kate T]

I would also be concerned that your son has not thought through or truly looked at the practicalities of what he wishes to do. From my understanding $500 is a drop in the ocean with respect to costs of transition financially. Does he have any idea how he is going to finance this? That sounds mercenary but I think it is an indicator of poorly thought through decision process, along with the reluctance to return to a psychiatrist.

Your son needs to recognise that you still love him even though you may disagree with his decisions. I think it is unfair to intimate the use of an emotional blackmail card (i.e. if you love me then you will do whatever I ask). He has responsibilitie to his family as well. When we are young these are not always on top of our mind and in that respect I can see and understand his position but I believe as a parent you have a right to be heard and understood, as does he.

Good luck. I agree that you must talk face to face. His statements regarding phone and email sound like avoidance in the same way he is avoiding WPATH guidelines.

Best wishes.

[Badtranny]

Your son is extremely brave at an age when I was still working overtime to prove how manly I was. The fact that you cross dress doesn't seem to have any bearing on this discussion. Your son apparently doesn't and is a lot more concerned about getting a real transition underway. Real Life Experience is over rated in the beginning. He is young and in a University cocoon so now is a wonderful time to explore various transition options including HRT. I would never ask my parents for money, but then again they've never given me any or offered to pay for anything so that kind of relationship was never established. If he could reasonably expect you to help him with a similar issue if transition WASN'T involved than I don't see why this situation is any different.

People don't talk about stuff like this if they don't have serious gender issues, CIS people never give their gender a second thought. It's fascinating that you seem to be so resistant to the idea that your son may very well be a transsexual.

[Bree-asaurus]

I think you need to try and accept that this is something he is going to do with or without your support. When I told my parents, I basically told them what's been going on and what I'm going to do. I answered any questions they had. But at no point were they going to have a say in what I do. It isn't up to them. If they want to support me, that's awesome, and I'm glad I have their support. But going down this road was life and death for me. The only person I was going to slow down for is myself if I needed to.

With that said, he should be talking to a therapist to keep everything on track and to provide letters when needed. He can do this the right way and be able to plan for his future, or he can get mad at every turn that the system is against him and potentially destroy his future. Support him and be there for him, but try to help him realize that there is a smart way of doing this. He may want it all RIGHT NOW, but after taking a few steps he's going to have to learn how to be patient because certain things take time regardless of how fast he tries to move.

This is definitely difficult for you and your wife. But understand, this is infinitely more difficult for him.

[Miranda-E]

Elizabeth,
Remember the earlier in life she transitions the more successful she will be in her life's endeavor's as her true self.
Please do not allow yourself or your wife to interfere with her transition.
If you love your child and I know you do, you and your wife have to stop the strangle hold on her.
Let her fly, let her live.


Julia

best advice, especially the bold part.

[Badtranny]

I find it surprising, and perhaps telling, that she shows so little interest in expressing her femininity and taking her place as a female in the world. How many of us T women stepped out into the world without hormones or spiro or padding or corsets or wigs or even electrolysis because we had to express that part of us.

How many of you notwithstanding, there are many of us that didn't. My transition is essentially pending electrolysis and FFS. It was worth it to me to have a full-time presentation wait until I could put my best face forward as it were. Nobody that knows me would question my commitment or my identity. Only cross-dressers think make-up and dresses are necessary for a feminine identity.

[Bree-asaurus]

I find it surprising, and perhaps telling, that she shows so little interest in expressing her femininity and taking her place as a female in the world. How many of us T women stepped out into the world without hormones or spiro or padding or corsets or wigs or even electrolysis because we had to express that part of us.

Not all of us went 24/7 and THEN started hormones and electrolysis and stuff. Some of us want to do our best to look the part, so we don't have to deal with as much discrimination. Being able to be yourself helps, but so does fixing your incorrect body. There isn't one way to transition... and there isn't one way to start.

I'm still not 24/7, but I'm almost there. I've progressively been myself more and more, and I seriously started going out as myself well into undergoing HRT. Hrmm... I must be doing it wrong too!

[LeaP]

Liz,

I, too, recall the past thread on this. Reading this latest information, it seems the exchange is 100% emotional on both sides. You're hurt and want to assert your concerns (valid or not) into the matter. You're being asked for unconditional support and your concerns are obviously neither sought nor wanted. You're being tolerated at best. You need to get the emotion out of this.

Part of the problem is Davin's ongoing dependency, which sets the scene for resentment. You might consider how best to break that in order to set Davin on an adult path of responsibility. Unfortunately, it's probably going to be perceived as manipulative. My suggestion, regardless, is to extend your full blessing to transition (and you'd have to mean it), along with your offer to participate and assist non-financially, but at the cost of ending all other support. The proposition is really this: continue dependency along with all that entails, including accountability to you, or end it and take control over your own (Davin's) life. I suspect Davin's decisions and path will clarify considerably after the uproar settles ... which may take a while. I have no reason to doubt Davin's identity issues or transition conviction and need, but the facts as presented indicate irresponsible thinking, too.

The hardest thing I ever did with one of our (6) children was to not help in order to force responsibility, which was entirely lacking at that point. My daughter and 2 year-old granddaughter were homeless for a period of time as a result. It just about killed me and was brutal on her. But she went from blaming everyone else for her situation, and being on welfare and sleeping until noon to working, stable, and happy. It took 2 years.

As with earlier responses, I wouldn't continue via email, period.

Lea

[Sally24]

Only cross-dressers think make-up and dresses are necessary for a feminine identity.

That seems totally out of place with ValRom's quote about Davins lack of outward expression of her femininity. She was expressing her doubt of someone who is going from rarely expressing her female side to taking hormones. It has nothing to do with "dressing up" and the slight towards CDs was uncalled for.

[sandra-leigh]

From my understanding $500 is a drop in the ocean with respect to costs of transition financially. Does he have any idea how he is going to finance this?

Perhaps Liz could ask about budgeting, but carefully -- such as "We understand that you may end up asking us for some financial support in this process. We wonder if you have a timeline and cost estimate, so that we can prepare our own finances to deal with this?"

Real Life Experience is over rated in the beginning. He is young and in a University cocoon so now is a wonderful time to explore various transition options including HRT.

I have a mid-20's FTM friend in transition who is attending the most liberal and accepting local university -- one that has an active gender studies department, and has an active Gender/Trans Week (with talks and films and high profile speakers), and the students have an annual (serious, not clowny) cross-dressing day. Even with that deliberate official trans-positive attitude, my friend tells me of continued problems with being disrespected. The bathroom is one place he continues to have problems with the students. Earlier he had problems getting one of his professors to use his chosen name and chosen pronouns; I do not know if that problem still continues. (He has also had acute problems from time to time, but I do not feel comfortable in talking about those.)

Last fall a few people posted links in the Media section about the increase in universities allowing students to room in the dorms of their chosen gender. It was nice to see how universities are finally "getting it" in that regard. At the same time, it was discouraging to see the backlash discussions, and the stories of how much opposition there had been in places when the policy change had been proposed.

Many of us have an image of universities and university students as being permissive and generous and "cool" with non-conformity. And some of them really are. But there are a lot of universities that are feeder systems for reinforcement of the status quo (or even that actively favor reducing civil rights.)

University is not necessarily a cocoon, though it might provide some insulation.

Unfortunately, in the circumstances Liz describes, I do not presently see a way to suggest RLE to Dav without sounding like one is putting up a roadblock. Fortunately there are people much more skilled than I at finding good ways to say things.

=====

Liz, I am wondering what subject Dav is studying? I am thinking here of the job market. There are some fields where waiting a couple of years after graduation (i.e., while undergoing physical and legal transition) would not be a big deal, but there are other fields where not getting a job upon or a few months after graduation would tend to lead to the suspicion that the reason for the delay was that the person was not very competent or not dedicated enough. The firms that tend to offer jobs to the students of the subject Dav is studying: do those tend to be progressive firms or more traditional firms? So if Dav did get a job upon graduation and did the physical transition a few years later, would that tend to be a problem with the employers (e.g., you aren't supposed to be "different")? Does it happen to be a field where there is a lot of emphasis on "what you can do" (e.g., computing), or is it more a field where "lucky breaks" and "who you know" tend to be quite important?

[Amber99]

My advice is to support this decision because it sounds like it's to the point where that is the only way you will keep your child in your life. Some people have to work through so much self doubt to get the confidence they need to come out to their parents that they have totally solidified their resolve to move forward by that point. If they were going to be convinced otherwise they would have already convinced themselves.

My 2 cents based purely on the conversation you posted.

[Kate T]

Perhaps Liz could ask about budgeting, but carefully -- such as "We understand that you may end up asking us for some financial support in this process. We wonder if you have a timeline and cost estimate, so that we can prepare our own finances to deal with this?"

I think a very good approach. It would enable a reengagement whilst still showing empathy and concern and not ruling out assistance. It also enables Davin to show you that she has thought this through and reassure some of the doubts you and your wife may have.

[Aprilrain]

I see people quoted ValRom but I don't see her post????????

[SuzanneBender]

Elizabeth it sound to me that you do support her transition, but you just want her to take it a little slower. I think the key here is that you let her know that you support her. I have a daughter the same age and this is no difference than some of the issues that I have discussed with her. You owe it to her to voice your opinion and concerns, but in the end she is an adult and will make the decisions that she feels is best. Make sure you are consistently couching your "advice" with support. This is a tough time for her and she needs the unconditional support of her Mom and Dad even when you are not in favor of her choice.

I also like her Psychologist's advice. Stop discussing this via email. This is to big a discussion to conduct via email. I would do it on the phone at the very least and even better in person.

Good luck dear I am sure all will turn out well especially if both of you are patient with each other and take the time to listen to each other's side.

[Krististeph]

I'm agreeing with Kimberly Huddle- support is good- but the young-un has to realize there are a lots of people with a lot more experience than they've lived- and no medical pro will allow physical modification without a reasonable standard of counseling. Period.

Cross dress to your heart's desire- live full time, knock yourself out- but when you start to modify your body- if you refuse medical counseling- you are being irrational.