A question to CD's from a TS about employment.

[Karren H]

I've hired a number of people to work for me.... the latest one to replace me when I retire... and if a candidate has all the technical skills (15 plus years of underground mining engineering plus finance), is a team player, a self starter, speaks well in front of management groups, and is a snappy dresser like I am.... they get the job.....

[kristinacd55]

Wow, interesting post Sandra and very thought provoking. I had my business up until about 3 years ago and I believe that honestly I would have looked at a TS with prejudice eyes. Of course, it would've depended on what job they were applying for. I was in the retail business and any sales position including sales manager I would've looked at and said hmm it would just be too tough an environment for them to handle and too much of a disruption in our organization. Now, I'm looking at it from my point of view THEN, when I was also still in the closet. Today, I believe I would handle it differently. Of course, in reality I didn't hire people for sales jobs anyway, I left that to my sales manager and the office staff was handled by my sister in law so I wasn't involved in the hiring at the end. Hmm...maybe that's why we went out of business! When we were a smaller company I DID do all the hiring!

[Kate Simmons]

I'd be looking to hire the best person for the company and the one I felt was most qualified for the position. If the TS person was the one I felt was most qualified, I would hire them. Then I would make sure all of the other ducks were in a row, including providing unisex restrooms in case there any objections from other employees assuming the TS person is out and open. I would be prepared to hold meetings on diversity in the work place if need be. I would tell the TS person this up front to make sure THEY still want the position. Otherwise the fact that they are TS would not even be mentioned unless some issues came up.

[LeaP]

Timely topic. I was just selected for an enterprise-level (this is a large multinational) working group on recruiting and hiring.

Would I hire a TS? Sure, subject to the same caveats as anyone else. As that always includes presentation and team fit, some TSs might present some unique problems. As a manager, I would be as intolerant of anti-trans attitudes in staff as I am of racism or sexism. Because the situation would be unusual, I would likely consult HR and prep interviewers, assuming I knew from a pre-screening. But the normal considerations of presentation (not passability) would apply. Appropriate clothing, speech and behavior, etc. Someone whose presentation is teenage s*** doesn't get hired, GG or TS. (as one example)

[BLUE ORCHID]

I think for us we would be able to understant them a little better but they should be qualified for the job.

[Sarasometimes]

I agree with the bottom line approach especially with the current econony. The interviewer is tasked with finding the best "fit" for the position from the company's persepctive. This is one of the reasons I often times still call businesses before I stop by. Let us say you get hired as a qualified applicant for a sales position. And most of you customers are anti TS and won't buy from you. This could endanger the jobs of other TS'es working there. Understand that life is often unfair but that is life. I work with a gay guy and the bosses are so afraid of him, he gets put into spots he can't handle and it reflects poorly on him and our organization. So it can even work that way. Now as for me it that spot as interviewer, I would hope I would do my best to find a fit for a qualified TS that would work for all involved. Good luck in your job search and remember many people who are fortunate to be from the "mainstream" have had to look everywhere for a job, not just in their chosen field so keep an open mind and let everyone you meet know you are looking for work. Over 80% of jobs are never advertised!!

[Badtranny]

I would hire based on the job requirements and the qualifications of the applicant.
Nothing else should matter...there's too much "equal opportunity" these days and I feel that that is one of the reasons that American businesses are struggling. They do not hire the most qualified, but to fill quotas and that detracts from the performance of the company as a whole.

What? I work for a rather large electrical contractor, which is wholly owned by the largest specialty contractor in the nation which is a publicly held company so we are well aware of EOE requirements, but there are NO quotas and NO pressure to hire anyone that isn't in fact the most qualified. People like my Tea Bagger dad say this kind of stuff all the time, and it just isn't true.

[Kerigirl2009]

I have about 60 people that work for me and I would have no issues hiring someone that presents themselves in a clean, caring about the job additude, and is responsible enough to get the job done right. Even if they where TS. Now I might have a problem hiring a man with a beard that dresses in all female clothing, because that would be a distraction to the others. but if they where trying to blend or pass as female or male then I have no problem at all.

[Sara Jessica]

I have been in a position of interviewing and/or actual hiring over the last 13 years or so. To this point, no one who is trans has presented for an interview so anything I might say about what I would do if given a chance to hire someone who is TS would just be lip service.

I will say this. The corporate workplace has changed. I inherited some employee's at one point who presented with nose piercing, tattoos, faux-hawk hairstyles, etc. To this day I still see this stuff in our highly conservative environment. I have seen a heavily tattooed woman be promoted because of her ability and potential with her body art not holding her back. And the fact that my own long hair in the corporate environment has been a non-issue as far as I can tell speaks to change. Granted, such change isn't necessarily evident at every company out there but it's a start.

I hope that one day I will have an opportunity to go to bat for a TS who might apply for a position in our organization. Good people in our industry are highly sought after. I would hope that trans would not prove to make an outstanding candidate a non-starter.

[Jorja]

I own a construction company and an architectural design company. They are two seperate entities that function as one when needed. As you can imagine, conctruction is a heavily male populated trade. Many in the TG community were being (in my opinion) discriminated against and not being hired for positions they were qualified for only because they were different. I started hiring them. I now have 25 - 30 employees that are TG. We have had no proplem getting or keeping clients. We get hired because of the product we turn out not because of who we have working for us. When we are hiring, If you got the skills, you got have a shot at the job no matter what your tag is TG/TS/CD,IS,M,F, G, or Alien.

[stefan37]

I own my own electrical and mechanical contracting business. If an individual possesses the required mechanical and theoretical
skills to adequately install and troubleshoot systems and equipment, has the requisite skills to interact with clients in a professional manner and can clean up after themselves and leave the clients property in better shape than we arrived. I would hire that person in a heartbeat. I may be biased in that I am starting my transition at this time, but my customers and employees have all interacted with me wearing nail polish on toes and fingers, women's tee shirts and jeans, eyeliner and eye shadow on a daily basis for approximately 3 years to date. I have not lost any long time clients and I don't anticipate losing any after transition as long as the focus remains on finding solutions to the challenges our clients ask of us.

[Kaz]

In the UK we have laws on this. In the public sector (government) they have been very positive, so as to be seen to be taking the lead (not that good in practice...)... but anti-discrimination law here is taken seriously...

Having said that people always want to go by their biases and will work around it!

Me... I have hired people on 'talent' and that is it for me. Do they shine and will they fit the role? Lots of people fit the role and don't shine, some shine and don't fit the role...

I remember doing some work with a banking call centre - they hired on telephony skills... the rest they could teach.

Would I hire a CD/TS... depends on the role and what they bring... simple

[LeaP]

I agree with the bottom line approach especially with the current econony. The interviewer is tasked with finding the best "fit" for the position from the company's persepctive. ... Let us say you get hired as a qualified applicant for a sales position. And most of you customers are anti TS and won't buy from you. This could endanger the jobs of other TS'es working there. Understand that life is often unfair but that is life. I work with a gay guy and the bosses are so afraid of him, he gets put into spots he can't handle and it reflects poorly on him and our organization. ... remember many people who are fortunate to be from the "mainstream" have had to look everywhere for a job, not just in their chosen field so keep an open mind and let everyone you meet know you are looking for work....

You're right. It's not fair. It's illegal due to the recent EEOC ruling, though we will have see how it's applied in individual cases going forward.

The same arguments were made for race. It's very hard for me not to read your comments as "Business is bad. We really can't afford to do the right thing now."

I fail to see the relevance of your citation of the gay guy. Are you saying he can't handle situations because he's gay? Really?

To the extent that your "mainstream" comment refers to qualifications and real job suitability, I agree with you. For example, someone who is an awkward public speaker and introverted would not typically be hired as a company spokesman. But if by "mainstream" you meant those who aren't gay, trans, etc., then I completely disagree.

Finally, I find your breezy comment about keeping an open mind and letting people know you're looking for work incredibly dismissive of the serious problems that people who experience discrimination have in finding work. Trans people are among the worst off in that regard, with problems ranging from dismissals, underemployment, unemployment, homelessness, and people turning in desperation to work in the sex trade.

What? I work for a rather large electrical contractor, which is wholly owned by the largest specialty contractor in the nation which is a publicly held company so we are well aware of EOE requirements, but there are NO quotas and NO pressure to hire anyone that isn't in fact the most qualified. People like my Tea Bagger dad say this kind of stuff all the time, and it just isn't true.

I am about as conservative as they come, though no tea bagger, and I agree 100% with this. Also I will say this on behalf of the efforts of (at least some) large corporations: they don't pay attention to diversity just for lipservice or for legal compliance. Diversity is a very strong commitment in many companies, trained into everyone from top to bottom, monitored, and it is seen as a strategic asset in business. There are no quotas in any of the companies in which I have worked. Numbers are looked at, along with a zillion other factors, but to say that the approach is nuanced and thoughtful would be an understatement.

My current firm has adopted a policy against gender identity and expression discrimination. It has not yet developed policy details, practices, monitoring approaches, or training, however, that go along with it. New ground.

[Voulez-Vous]

If in the course of your day you were hiring for an opening in your company, and someone walks in as an applicant that was TS, what would you do?

No, I would not hire you. Why bring in un-necessary drama?

[Debglam]

I started hiring them. I now have 25 - 30 employees that are TG. We have had no proplem getting or keeping clients. We get hired because of the product we turn out not because of who we have working for us .

Awesome Jorja! You made my day!

[LeaP]

Awesome Jorja! You made my day!

No, I would not hire you. Why bring in un-necessary drama?

:believeit:

[JeanneF]

My honest answer to the question is: I don't know. My business (automobile dealership) is such that nearly all employees are responsible for face-to-face interaction with the customer, with the exception of the staff in the back office (accounting and such). Would I hire a TS for a sales position? I wish I could say yes, but I really don't know. I have had a couple of openly gay and lesbian salespeople, all who have been excellent, but without exception you wouldn't have picked that person out of the crowd and said "yes, he's gay". I do have two lesbian mechanics who are clearly of the more "butch" type, and I wouldn't be surprised if one of them eventually transitions.

As a company we are also committed to diversity, I can honestly say that we are well represented as far as sex, ethnicity and sexual orientation. Gender identity is a little bit tougher though...that's where the personal presentation issue can come into play. I would have no issues with hiring someone who had completed her transition, but someone mid-way on the journey could be a little more of a problem. For a sales position, I think I can clearly say no. But for service or operations jobs, I wouldn't have an issue.

Great question...it really made me think.

[sandra-leigh]

No, I would not hire you. Why bring in un-necessary drama?

You are probably right -- best to avoid the likelihood that in a few months I will know your product better than you do.

[April_Ligeia]

In my experience hiring for a very large corporate entity, from the applicant's point of view, they interviewed with one person. After the fact, the interview was discussed with two other managers, and the actual hiring is done at the corporate office. I never had a TS candidate apply, but no one person makes hiring decisions in corporate America, so I honestly don't know whether or not I could get a TS person hired. I know that's not really an answer, but this thread is food for thought.

[avant1465]

I've been a hiring manager in the past, and can offer this:

IF the position requires interaction with the public... and IF that "public" can be expected to be put off by a person who is openly L/G/B/T, then I would NOT hire that prospect... I MUST put the Company's (predictable) interest first. Note, this also applies to other (more-benign?) attributes, as well.. such as gender, colour or religion....

For a position wherein I could expect that the prospect's appearance and behaviour would NOT be expected to have impact on their ability to do that job (relative to WHO they must deal with).... I wouldn't give a darn about any of their details.... such as gay/straight/CD.... OR gender, color or religion (or, even, politics!)....

I expect I'll get "called" on that first paragraph.... on the claim that EEO is SPECIFICALLY meant to prevent/avoid that... But, believe me, hiring managers must be (are) careful when they are going to put an employee in front of their Customers.... and will skirt EEO in whatever manner is necessary!!!!

[Voulez-Vous]

You are probably right -- best to avoid the likelihood that in a few months I will know your product better than you do.

No point in taking a chance when dealing with the public.

[BRANDYJ]

You all have heard the saying, "If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then it must be a duck".
So if I was hiring I can apply the same principal. If she looks like a woman, talks like a woman, walks like a woman, then she must be a woman.... She's hired! That is if she is as qualified as any other applicant.

[LeaP]

I expect I'll get "called" on that first paragraph.... on the claim that EEO is SPECIFICALLY meant to prevent/avoid that... But, believe me, hiring managers must be (are) careful when they are going to put an employee in front of their Customers.... and will skirt EEO in whatever manner is necessary!!!!

Look, I'm not going to pretend that a chunk of the public might be put off by dealing with a TS. I'm also cognizant of the fact that a TS who isn't fully passable is going to have to overcome that with those customers. Trust me when I say that the TS is actually going to be far more aware of that than you are, in excruciating detail. A good interviewer can rapidly - and I do mean rapidly - assess the candidate's ability to succeed without resorting directly to questions of gender. In other words, just as with any area of personal challenge, it still comes down to ability, suitability, and fit.

[Voulez-Vous]

Look, I'm not going to pretend that a chunk of the public might be put off by dealing with a TS. I'm also cognizant of the fact that a TS who isn't fully passable is going to have to overcome that with those customers.

Let's be completely honest here. Almost ALL customers would be put off when dealing with a non-passable TS. Sure, I know there are discrimination laws about hiring TS's. But that employer can find some other reason to not hire a TS. A non passable transitioning TS is worse than a non passable CD. What employer would deal with that if he didn't have to? Just being honest.

[SandraAbsent]

WOW! An amazing example of proving them wrong!

I own a construction company and an architectural design company. They are two seperate entities that function as one when needed. As you can imagine, conctruction is a heavily male populated trade. Many in the TG community were being (in my opinion) discriminated against and not being hired for positions they were qualified for only because they were different. I started hiring them. I now have 25 - 30 employees that are TG. We have had no proplem getting or keeping clients. We get hired because of the product we turn out not because of who we have working for us. When we are hiring, If you got the skills, you got have a shot at the job no matter what your tag is TG/TS/CD,IS,M,F, G, or Alien.