Women at the office....

[Jenn A116]

But according to the sentiments in this thread, it wasn't me at all, it was just my clothes!

Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?

Funny you should ask. Yes, I do believe its possible.

I know that when I see an attractive woman I'm looking at her on two levels. The male side of me is appreciating a beautiful woman. The female side of me is appraising how she dresses and how that outfit would work on me. They are two different thoughts, seemingly coming from two different places.

[ChelseaErtel]

Not really, we mostly have very frumpy engineers and scientists. But there are two young ladies who are very beautiful and have fabulous clothes.

I'm too old for their styles, but I do enjoy looking at them just to look and to admire their clothes. I'm a big shoe girl, and they have fantastic heels, oh how it makes them walk.

[Billie Jean]

[QUOTE=RitaJanelle1964;2990556]I've worked in the medical field for the last 15 years, so pretty much all I ever see are women in scrubs day in and day out. Occasionally, our female physicians will dress with style and class, but even that's becoming more and more rare...[/QUOTEWe have a young doctor from the Phillipines who dresses well. She has this black mini she wears with boots thats really cute. Billie Jean

[Foxglove]

Hi, Babeba! Thanks for your latest post. I appreciate it very much.

I do think sometimes however, that some cross dressing GM's do forget about the woman behind the clothes - and in threads like this one even with those members who are very aware of women as people, they post in such a way that makes it seem as though they are not. That is one of the things I was referring to. I misunderstood your sentences as being exactly indicative of this, and so I quoted them as one example of what I saw as being an example of this.

One thing I wanted to say here: I've put in bold your words "in threads like this one". One thing I'd like to ask you GG's to kindly bear in mind: we "girls" do have threads like this one, threads that are a bit light-hearted, a bit superficial where we're talking about nothing but clothes and that sort of thing. I can understand that GG's would get a bit miffed here because it can sound like the only thing we think comprises feminity is appearance. But we do have more serious threads, too, where we discuss more serious topics, where we look at our emotions, the nature of being trans, etc. What it comes down to is that we transpeople are like a lot of others: we have our silly moments and our serious moments. If there were nothing but silliness on this forum, I for one wouldn't be here.

Babeba, I was thinking about something last night, undoubtedly one of the most important moments of my life. I can't recall how old I was at the time, a bit past puberty I suppose. Up to then, I'd been a normal, CDing kid, sneaking around, grabbing whatever I could find to put on, doing my best not to get caught, and not thinking about what I was doing in the least.

Then one night I saw a commercial on TV. I forget who the actress was in it, and I forget what TV show she was starring in, but she was very popular at the time--and she was gorgeous. This commercial was for a TV manufacturer. This was in the early days of color TV, and the message of the commercial was, "See what vivid colors you'll get if you buy one of our TV's!"

Now this actress was all done up, and she was pointing out all the bright colors of her outfit for the benefit of those who still had black-and-white TV. I can't remember much of anything of what she said, but it went like this: "My such-and-such is this color, and my such-and-such is this color--and my dress is green." And that one really hit me hard.

That was when I realized two things: that a pretty woman was very appealing to me, and that I envied the hell out of her: I wanted to be her, or at least I wanted to be just like her. And I didn't know what in the world to do with those feelings. But that's when the gender dysphoria really kicked in. As odd as it sounds to normal people, I realized with dismay that the day would never come when I could stand before a TV, or any other sort of, audience, and say brightly and cheerily, "And my dress is green!" I know how odd it sounds to normal people, but that hurt a lot. And nothing has ever been the same since.

So these are my feelings, and should I feel bad about having them? I don't think so, because they're just part of my TGism as a whole, and if I have to feel bad about them, I have to feel bad about all the rest. And I've decided to stop doing that. It appears to me, from what others are saying on this thread, that I might be in a minority in this regard. But that's OK, too, because we transpeople come in all different varieties, and if this is a minority variety, it's still me. That's what I am.

As I said, I can understand that a woman might not like this feeling that I have. But I look at it this way: we all have feelings from time to time that perhaps we shouldn't have. E.g., sometimes you might take a dislike to somebody for no real reason. Looking at them objectively, there's nothing really wrong with them, but there's just something about them that rubs you the wrong way. This kind of thing happens: sometimes feelings just spontaneously arise in us, and we have no real control over that.

What we are in control of is how we deal with those feelings. And if you treat someone you dislike with respect, as friendlily as you can, don't go out of your way to make them unhappy, etc., then I think you're doing as much as anybody can reasonably expect.

And so I have this feeling inside me through no fault of my own. It's just the way I'm made. The question is what I do with it. If you look at that thread that I started on this topic, it was a typical experience for me. I saw a girl I found attractive, and at the same time I envied her. Same old story, the story of my life. But all I did was give her a little smile, which she seemed to enjoy, and then she went on her way. And that was it. I've never seen her since, I don't know who she is, I don't know the first thing about her.

But I didn't let this feeling of mine hurt her in any way. Being aware that women might not like this feeling, I've always kept it to myself. I've always dealt with it myself and never forced any woman to deal with it. That's why I don't apologize for it: I can't help it, and it's never hurt a soul in the world but me.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Rachel05]

Yes yes yes that is one of the torments I find of being a cross dresser, one of my female colleagues has the best wardrobe of anyone I know

[Dannigirl]

I know exactly what you mean, I just spent the week in Seattle and managed to go for a walk before and after meetings right around the time people were going and coming from work. Wow, did I ever have BOOT envy. I am infatuated with boots right now and if I had a spare $3000 I would load up on them

[Babeba]

Annabelle,

One thing I wanted to say here: I've put in bold your words "in threads like this one". One thing I'd like to ask you GG's to kindly bear in mind: we "girls" do have threads like this one, threads that are a bit light-hearted, a bit superficial where we're talking about nothing but clothes and that sort of thing. I can understand that GG's would get a bit miffed here because it can sound like the only thing we think comprises feminity is appearance.

I listened to a podcast yesterday that made me go, "This. Exactly this." It was on a word I had never heard of, 'femmephobia.' (It was on the show, 'stuff Mom never told you,' it's on iTunes and howstuffworks.com for free and it is really good). It put a lot of things into words and articulated them for me.

There is a certain aspect of feminism (and of women around today, in real life) who seem to feel that anything too "girly" and 'feminine' is a disservice to women; if you like polka dots, sparkles, and Hello Kitty past the age of 12 then you are buying into constructs of 'girlhood' and immaturity which leave women powerless, orchestrated by the patriarchy keeping women weak and distracted. It's insidious, because if you're too feminine a lot of women don't take you seriously. There are scads of criticisms about expressing yourself as too girly, from 'you're setting a bad example' and down. It's a nasty mentality, which also completely turns the holder of that view against trans people as well, at least emotionally.

Being a girl who loves pink, polka dots and Hello Kitty, I face this sort of thing sometimes. It totally sucks to not get taken seriously by other women because I am girly and interested in how fashion works. (If I preface any of my clothing knowledge by, 'I interned at the Fashion Museum' I get taken more seriously - because museums are automatically elitist, I guess. It's weird.) To then turn around and feel as though fashion-conscious women are kind of invisible clothes hangers at best, and objects causing pain and misery of jealousy at worst - it hurts. I want to be seen as a person, too, and I want other women like me to get the same respect... But there is little to no mention of these women's personality traits, just their closets. Don't get me wrong, I like window shopping for clothes on people too. But it's second nature to try and see what sort of a person they are as much as it is to see where they got their shoes.

Annabelle, I think when you saw that woman saying 'my dress is green,' the reason that struck you more than anything else until then was that self-expressive freedom she had - and not the green dress she had, which you really couldn't see clearly. Also when a woman is asking for you to pay attention to her clothes, wouldn't it be rude not to?

[toriwilliams]

I do understand how this subject can be disturbing, there are many different perspectives and views. in how i define attraction (interested in talking to someone about personal interests, beautiful, dating, etc) i am attracted to women. I don't know if there is such a thing as an attraction to clothes. There are attractive and unattractive women at my office that dress nice. There is also this guy who is a sharp dresser. I notice his clothes, but there is no attraction. I wonder, do women look at how other women dress? There could be many reason why we look at someone; it could be an attraction, it could be clothes, it could be a tattoo or piercing, or it could be mistaken identify (oh, I thought you were someone else)...

[Foxglove]

I listened to a podcast yesterday that made me go, "This. Exactly this." It was on a word I had never heard of, 'femmephobia.' . . .

Yeah, I know what you're saying. You can have freedom from one set of definitions as long as you accept another set. Probably no matter who you are, you're going to have somebody trying to force a certain role on you.

Annabelle, I think when you saw that woman saying 'my dress is green,' the reason that struck you more than anything else until then was that self-expressive freedom she had - and not the green dress she had, which you really couldn't see clearly.

Yeah, that's it. It wasn't the dress exactly. It was what she was and the freedom she had to be herself, which was a freedom I didn't have. And sad to say, it didn't occur to me to think, Well, if you don't have that freedom, maybe you should try to get it. I don't know what I was thinking about when I was young. Or rather, I do. I once read Chaucer in the original. We all have our personal escape hatches.

Also when a woman is asking for you to pay attention to her clothes, wouldn't it be rude not to?

I don't know. You tell me. On the other hand, if she's asking me to pay attention to her clothes when I'm not interested in them, is she being rude? Maybe I'd better not ask that question. I have a feeling that one could get me in A LOT of trouble.

Annabelle

[OK, wait. I've thought about it further. Of course I'd be interested in her clothes. So why wouldn't I pay attention to them? I was just thinking for a minute for some reason that that might be a trick question.]

[ReineD]

There is a certain aspect of feminism (and of women around today, in real life) who seem to feel that anything too "girly" and 'feminine' is a disservice to women;

... as is the decision to stay home and raise babies. I agree, some feminists take it too far and believe there should be no gender differences. Women and men are biologically different and they are motivated differently. This should be honored, not reviled. At the same time just because a woman embraces her femininity and motherhood doesn't mean that she is not a multi faceted individual. She needs to be respected as an equal and seen for more than her femininity or sexuality ... or her clothes.

I totally agree with your point, Babs. And honestly, to reverse the tables, if I saw my ideal of a perfect male, handsome beyond compare and with a body that caused my heart to do flip-flops, and he was also dressed in clothing that I find personally appealing, I'd appreciate the view. But, if he subsequently revealed an inner self that was not so appealing, my regard for his appearance would disappear.

[Babeba]

... as is the decision to stay home and raise babies. I agree, some feminists take it too far and believe there should be no gender differences. Women and men are biologically different and they are motivated differently. This should be honored, not reviled. At the same time just because a woman embraces her femininity and motherhood doesn't mean that she is not a multi faceted individual. She needs to be respected as an equal and seen for more than her femininity or sexuality ... or her clothes.

I totally agree with your point, Babs. And honestly, to reverse the tables, if I saw my ideal of a perfect male, handsome beyond compare and with a body that caused my heart to do flip-flops, and he was also dressed in clothing that I find personally appealing, I'd appreciate the view. But, if he subsequently revealed an inner self that was not so appealing, my regard for his appearance would disappear.

As I once said to the most beautiful man I had ever met (before Crystal and I started dating) when he asked me to hook up with him at a party, "but I wouldn't respect you in the morning!" He looked a whole lot uglier to me then.

I think the stay at home mom debate is a major difference between second wave feminism (what most people think about when they think feminism) and third-wave feminism: third wave feminism is a lot more about each individual person being able to reach their full potential of their happiness and their abilities, and not prejudging people or situations through our own cultural lenses or gendered filters.

[Sallee]

Wow this is my post #1000 I finally made it
You have the problem I have to many cute and good looking women in the office I know I spend a lot of time checking them out and your right is is usually their outfit.
I wonder how many other guys are doing the same thing. Maybe there just looking at body parts but I'll bet it was the wardrobe that drew them to look in the first place.
Just enjoy the fantasy

[ReineD]

I think the stay at home mom debate is a major difference between second wave feminism (what most people think about when they think feminism) and third-wave feminism

Exactly. The second wave was useful to propel us out of the 1950s, but thank goodness for the third wave who brought us back to center. They gave us back our choices, although some women as you say still adhere to the second wave principles.

But, some elements of the third wave do not consider gender differences; they claim that the male/female binary is a social construct. Although I agree that some people fall outside the binary and they doom themselves to unhappiness by trying to conform to it, and also the media does still push the gendered stereotypes which makes it difficult for non-binary people to fit in, I do believe there are biological differences between men and women that account for real differences between them.

(Disregard my liberal use of "some". I'm trying to not generalize)

[BRANDYJ]

**big deep sigh**

I've noticed an admiring glance sent my way, here and there over the years. I was flattered because I thought he was attracted to me and it made me feel good. You know, like I was fulfilling my primal role in the male/female relationship dynamic, which is girl and boy meet, boy is attracted to girl, girl selects him, and if the stars align they mate. I used to see my SO's eyes light up when he saw me, and this is one of the things about him that melted my heart and sent chills up my spine. I'd go out of my way to make myself as appealing as I could on the off chance that I'd run into him, because I wanted him to be attracted to me.

But according to the sentiments in this thread, it wasn't me at all, it was just my clothes!

Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?

My Dear ReineD, Have no doubt that some of us look at the beauty, attractiveness, sensuality of the woman and NOT her clothes! For me it's very separated. I can honestly say that I never looked at a woman and drooled over what she was wearing. I confess, I have drooled over many women, not the package she was wrapped in. Many women can turn my head wearing a seed sack! Sure, I may or may not notice what she's wearing, but it's the total package and definitely not the wrapper.