Confused...

[Wildaboutheels]

Fluffy, I have a sneaky suspicion... and I could be wrong that you and probably MANY other "non accepting" SOs might just maybe have less trouble accepting the CDing behavior if it was ONLY clothes? No forms, nail polish, wigs, makeup, etc. And I do realize you can only answer for yourself as can any other female who wishes to take issue here. You have probably witnessed a common theme at these Forums... "we all have", "we all will", "all Cders will eventually". Amazing that people on such a website as this would make such proclmations over and over. I'm quite sure it makes some folks feel better but it is simply not true any more than "all females love to shop".

It's clear that many/most of the men who have responded here "feel feminine" just from the clothes alone but of course most add many of the other female VISUAL traits. The PRESENTATION that most women use to make themselves more attractive because women must be "attractive" to better compete for men. You'll notice women who already have a guy or partner spend far less time on being "attractive". Why waste all that time and energy if one is no longer competing?

And therein lays the key to the matter the VISUAL - the key to this or the glue that binds. This very site, the most popular topics, the ratio of men CDers to women CDers... all undenaible CONFIRMATION of this.

I'll bet that there are few if any blind CDers. Men's vision has an uncontrollable power or grip on many men's lives. Just look at some of the "brilliant" and or powerful men who have succumbed to a pretty face. Men generally think with their small head because of their vision.

Men cannot help their weakness to their vision anymore than women can help wanting to find a "successful" man. It's Humanity's most basic programming and it has worked well for tens of thousands of years... so it is not liable to change anytime soon.

[Moxie]

Fluffy, I have a sneaky suspicion... and I could be wrong that you and probably MANY other "non accepting" SOs might just maybe have less trouble accepting the CDing behavior if it was ONLY clothes? No forms, nail polish, wigs, makeup, etc. And I do realize you can only answer for yourself as can any other female who wishes to take issue here. You have probably witnessed a common theme at these Forums... "we all have", "we all will", "all Cders will eventually". Amazing that people on such a website as this would make such proclmations over and over. I'm quite sure it makes some folks feel better but it is simply not true any more than "all females love to shop".


It's clear that many/most of the men who have responded here "feel feminine" just from the clothes alone but of course most add many of the other female VISUAL traits. The PRESENTATION that most women use to make themselves more attractive because women must be "attractive" to better compete for men. You'll notice women who already have a guy or partner spend far less time on being "attractive". Why waste all that time and energy if one is no longer competing?

And therein lays the key to the matter the VISUAL - the key to this or the glue that binds. This very site, the most popular topics, the ratio of men CDers to women CDers... all undenaible CONFIRMATION of this.

I'll bet that there are few if any blind CDers. Men's vision has an uncontrollable power or grip on many men's lives. Just look at some of the "brilliant" and or powerful men who have succumbed to a pretty face. Men generally think with their small head because of their vision.

Men cannot help their weakness to their vision anymore than women can help wanting to find a "successful" man. It's Humanity's most basic programming and it has worked well for tens of thousands of years... so it is not liable to change anytime soon.

Ha, funny you write this as I am guilty of the "everyone else says this so you MUST want to" conversation with my H. After first reading here I declared he must want to transition soon so go do it already. He looked at me like I'd lost my mind as the idea had NEVER crossed his.

And yes, I do think women would be more accepting of men wearing womens clothes without all the props but this rarely happens. I guess it's the visual thing again? If we all wore Star Trek jumpsuits I imagine you'd still want to wear boobs!

[Foxglove]

I still don't get those who do feel feminine yet dress like women. I guess a part of me feels sad that men can't just be who they are without a costume.

Speaking purely for myself here, DM, it's because I'm not a man. Never was, although I pretended to be for a long time. I'm trans--and that's something different altogether. People get used to thinking that there's men and women and nobody else. That's wrong. There's more than two choices. There's us.

Why can't I just be who I am? That's what I'm doing these days. I wish I'd been doing it all my life. It's very hard for a cisperson to make this conceptual leap: there's more than two choices in this world. As long as you continue to think of transpeople as just messed-up men or messed-up women, you won't come close to understanding us.

If you're interested in knowing why we want to be what we are, I've just started a thread called, "Why It's Beautiful To Be Trans". Maybe that will tell you something.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Ineke Vashon]

You know, I think this is what I don't read much about here but what my H alwsys says. "it's fun!"

So you really can CD without feeling feminine which means it's not ALWAYS some big deep and meaningful experience and can just be about the clothes.

I still don't get those who do feel feminine yet dress like women. I guess a part of me feels sad that men can't just be who they are without a costume.

Doormat - For a different approach, look up "Two Spirits" in Wikipedia. Perhaps that might give you some understanding of the feminine side of (some) men. It is quite acceptable in some other than our western culture.

Ineke

[Ressie]

Second quick reply, and food for thought for those who answered...

A few here picked up on the cliche feminine traits I wrote and honestly, if I hadn't been (still am!) so confused I'd have cringed too! Yes, anyone can be compassionate, nurturing etc and many men are. I just needed to make an obvious point for my question.

But, given all that, I am still confused: Why not just be feminine men? If women alone don't represent femininity, then why bother looking like one at all, if you are NOT a woman inside. Why not help the movement to allow men more freedom of expression by actually looking like men?

Surely, emulating women as though we DO own the right to femininity is in fact taking men's rights backwards??

I don't know about all crossdressers, but I'm not a feminine man. Cross dressing is all about dressing. There are different reasons why men cross dress. For me it's mostly a sexual rush. The feel as well as the look of women's clothing and accessories excites me. I also admire GGs that dress in feminine clothing, wear fem hairstyles etc. I believe there are things from my childhood that did this to me. I enjoy it too much to look for a way to stop.

I really don't have the desire to dress 24/7. I don't want to feel feminine or emulate women all the time. I dress a couple times a week for periods of a couple of hours. After that it's back to men's clothing, because I present to everyone as a man.

I'm assuming that you're really confused with your SO's reason to cross dress. Crossdressing covers a wide spectrum from wearing pantyhose once a year to dressing completely 24/7. But being a feminine man without dressing isn't crossdressing. Some of the answers in this thread may apply to your SO, but maybe not.

[justmetoo]

Hi DM,
Thanks for your clarifications and for trying to understand.
Fun is a big part of it for me. Playing dressup. The fun doesn't include just the clothes, but also the makeup, wigs, breastforms, etc. Trying to look as good as I can with the whole package. Why should makeup be restricted to GG's? Or certain hairstyles (I use wigs because my own hair is deserting me)? Sometimes it's just fun to get all dolled up and looking pretty, even to the point of looking like a woman. I don't see anything wrong with that.
As for wearing just the clothes, or maybe mixing and matching like women do, on a more regular basis, I would do that in addition to full-on dressing, if I had the courage to go out in public like that. As it is, I do do that at home most evenings and weekends. I'm a very shy and attention-averse person. If I dress fully I can either "fly under the radar" for some (most? I can at least tell myself that) people and/or give them the excuse to "suspend disbelief" and pretend I am what I appear to be. At the very least I can pretend they don't take much notice of me. A lot of pretensions, eh?
It's also a way of expressing part of who I am that I have to keep hidden away most of the time (or at least that I feel I have to keep hidden; Lately I've become more open with a good few people). But even if I were totally open about this part of me I'm sure I would still have a desire to dress, even to dress "fully". To me that's about freedom of expression. The alternatives are supression (of one's self) and oppression (imposed on one's self by others). Both of those can lead to depression. This is an essential part of who I am, of what makes me me.

I don't know if any of the above helps? Best wishes to you and to your husband! I hope you can reach some level of understanding and be there for each other!

[Jenniferathome]

But, given all that, I am still confused: Why not just be feminine men? If women alone don't represent femininity, then why bother looking like one at all, if you are NOT a woman inside. Why not help the movement to allow men more freedom of expression by actually looking like men.

Hi DM, you are looking for an answer that will never come. As you know, I am a straight, married crossdresser. I am not a woman on the inside. I am a man when in guy mode and I am a man when in girl mode. For a reason no one here will ever be able to explain, I enjoy presenting as a woman sometimes. I firmly believe itis in my genes and in the genes of all crossdressers. It "is" and it is a mystery that will still be confusing when one day the genes is discovered. I do find it interesting that most people can accept a transsexual as long as they are headed toward transition. But it wasn't always that way. Crossdressing is not only about the clothes. It is also about the feeling. It is a package.

[Soriya]

I still don't get those who do feel feminine yet dress like women. I guess a part of me feels sad that men can't just be who they are without a costume.

I agree 100% as this was the case for me. As I mentioned in my last post in this thread. It's what I subconsciously ran to so I could get back in touch with emotions that are natural to me but believed were bad because I thought only girls had them. It was a huge mind game on myself and I needed to put that 'mask' on to feel it.

I got to thinking last night after my last post and thought of something regarding people not being able to just be themselves and have to wear a mask. Most people do this in some way or form by trying to 'fit' into what society says things should be. Check this out regarding me and a good friend of mine I have known since a year old.

Strip away the fact I am male and she is female. Strip away all that society says men and women should be. Looking at the two of us growing up without any of that, it could be considered and was often said her and I were like twins in our personality. We always were and are 'best friends' to this day and as kids we liked all the same things but overall, she was called the 'Tom Boy'.

Her: Liked and played sports with all the kids, even loved tackle football! She was the only girl in the group of kids we grew up in and did everything typical 'boys' do. Teenage years her body matured in a 'non-femine' way. She tended to be heavier and add in the fact she didn't like makeup and didn't dress feminine in high school led to countless amounts of abuse. being simply a 'tomboy' led to kids calling her butch and even a man even though her face or body had no male characteristics. I even heard family members say they thought she was gay. She wasn't and liked boys just as much as any straight girl. Add in she never had a boyfriend until her early 20's fueled that speculation from society.

Me. In my teens my body matured much slower then the average person and always looked younger then the rest. I was always one of the shortest kids in my grade which led me to endure countless amount of abuse. I was called gay, a sissy, a girl, and didn't have a GF until my early 20's. I liked girls just as much as the straight boy does but never had the confidence to approach one because of all the bullying which fueled the speculation of others that I was a closet homosexual. My own mother even admitted she wondered at times if I was in my teens!

For both her and I it all led to us trying to 'fit' into societies version of what men and women are supposed to be like thus wearing a 'mask'. Perhaps in her case, she didn't have to use CD'ing in secret to be comfortable with her 'male' defined emotions because wearing jeans, t-shirts, and no makeup is so common out and about. In my case with using CD'ing as a way to be comfortable with my perceived 'female' emotions, it had to be done in secret because of the amount of abuse I would have taken otherwise. Mind you, I never wanted to go past the secrecy of it, I was fine dressing as men do.

The paradox for me was I was wearing a mask as a man by suppressing certain emotions then putting on another mask in secrecy to feel those emotions which was only suppressing the 'male' emotions. I was switching from mask to mask and never being just me.

Imagine how mentally exhausting that is.

[TxKimberly]

Well, the way I figure it, you're making a serious mistake - you are trying to apply logic to something that has nothing what-so-ever to do with logic and reason.

To put things into perspective, and perhaps to give my post some credibility, I will tell you that I am an engineer by trade, and for more than 30 years I have made a living by being able to apply logic as needed to troubleshoot and repair complex systems. Even with that back ground and training, I'm going to tell you that this has nothing to do with logic, and you will drive yourself absolutely bat-shit crazy trying to force it to fit.

This just is what it is, and it really aint all that complicated. Most of us like pretty clothes, and most of us like to 'be" as pretty as we can. It makes us feel happy. Whether you are speaking of a TS who perhaps feels a bit more complete when seeing her outside so clearly and unambiguously matching her inside, or a CD who simply feels happier when pretty. It just is, and it needs no logical explanation, nor does it provide one - even to those of us that share the "affliction".

Don't waste your time and energy looking for the logic in it, because there isn't any. The only real question at this point is, can you accept it? Understanding it or not, having a clue why we do it or not, can you accept it?

[Violetgray]

I think that perhaps you are making this more complicated than it is. All people want to feel attractive. For some men, that means being able to look into a mirror and seeing someone pretty staring back at them. Have you ever felt beautiful, or even sexy? It's a great feeling, and surely you can understand why someone would want to feel that way?

[MelanieB]

Hi DM, you are looking for an answer that will never come. As you know, I am a straight, married crossdresser. I am not a woman on the inside. I am a man when in guy mode and I am a man when in girl mode. For a reason no one here will ever be able to explain, I enjoy presenting as a woman sometimes. I firmly believe itis in my genes and in the genes of all crossdressers. It "is" and it is a mystery that will still be confusing when one day the genes is discovered. I do find it interesting that most people can accept a transsexual as long as they are headed toward transition. But it wasn't always that way. Crossdressing is not only about the clothes. It is also about the feeling. It is a package.

Hi DM. My first memories of my crossdressing start from around the age of 5 or 6 years old.
Many children in this age group play dress up as cowboys, soldiers doctors nurses astronauts or whatever. Just about all of these children grow up and grow out of these dressing up games as new interests arise and are presented to them.
For my part I never at any stage thought I was "playing" dress up in any of of these ways, my desire to wear female clothing, in my case my mothers to start with, was something else......there was simply a desire to do so.... Something drew me to it!!

Anyway I have now been doing this strange thing for 50 plus years and still haven't grown out of it. I honestly don't think it is just about the clothes...not sure if its about feeling feminine (whatever that would feel like)......I just simply have never felt the need to question it or look for answers to something that has clearly been a part of me all of my life and probably always will be!!

I've always been a compassionate nurturing animal loving softie at heart and so these are not qualities I need to seek out through dressing feminine, however, when I am dressed I do find some of the aggressive side of my drab male mode that I carry around on a daily basis does waft away into the ether somehow leaving me feeling a much more relaxed character that I actually prefer to be.

As Jennifer says I think its in my genes and is here to stay.

[Soriya]

Well, the way I figure it, you're making a serious mistake - you are trying to apply logic to something that has nothing what-so-ever to do with logic and reason.

To put things into perspective, and perhaps to give my post some credibility, I will tell you that I am an engineer by trade, and for more than 30 years I have made a living by being able to apply logic as needed to troubleshoot and repair complex systems. Even with that back ground and training, I'm going to tell you that this has nothing to do with logic, and you will drive yourself absolutely bat-shit crazy trying to force it to fit.

This just is what it is, and it really aint all that complicated. Most of us like pretty clothes, and most of us like to 'be" as pretty as we can. It makes us feel happy. Whether you are speaking of a TS who perhaps feels a bit more complete when seeing her outside so clearly and unambiguously matching her inside, or a CD who simply feels happier when pretty. It just is, and it needs no logical explanation, nor does it provide one - even to those of us that share the "affliction".

Don't waste your time and energy looking for the logic in it, because there isn't any. The only real question at this point is, can you accept it? Understanding it or not, having a clue why we do it or not, can you accept it?

Kimberly,

I absolutely mean no disrespect but, your engineering background with complex systems is easy IMO to apply logic too when you have the training to do so. These systems as complex as they may be are all 'black and white' in how they should work. There is no 'emotion' to them. Being a computer technician for many years now, the logic you mention is the same as all 'emotionless' systems'. They are built with specific ways they need to function. Understanding how they are supposed to work makes it a lot easier to apply logic to troubleshoot them when something goes wrong. The first step in troubleshooting these systems is to go back to when the last time it worked correctly and what occurred at the time so logic can be applied in figuring out what caused it to malfunction.

The same logic can be applied to any issue a human experiences. Same troubleshooting steps with starting when was the last time 'it worked' and what occurred around the time the issue started. What makes it far for more complex they any mechanical, man made system is the emotional factor involved thus making it far more difficult to figure out.

IMO the human mind is the most complex system of all. There is a reason for everything. Even if 'it just is' is correct, there is still a reason why it 'just is'.

BTW, I am not saying CD'ing itself is a problem or issue, just paraphrasing to compare to mechanical systems.

[Violetgray]

Kimberly,

I absolutely mean no disrespect but, your engineering background with complex systems is easy IMO to apply logic too when you have the training to do so. These systems as complex as they may be are all 'black and white' in how they should work. There is no 'emotion' to them. Being a computer technician for many years now, the logic you mention is the same as all 'emotionless' systems'. They are built with specific ways they need to function. Understanding how they are supposed to work makes it a lot easier to apply logic to troubleshoot them when something goes wrong. The first step in troubleshooting these systems is to go back to when the last time it worked correctly and what occurred at the time so logic can be applied in figuring out what caused it to malfunction.

The same logic can be applied to any issue a human experiences. Same troubleshooting steps with starting when was the last time 'it worked' and what occurred around the time the issue started. What makes it far for more complex they any mechanical, man made system is the emotional factor involved thus making it far more difficult to figure out.

IMO the human mind is the most complex system of all. There is a reason for everything. Even if 'it just is' is correct, there is still a reason why it 'just is'.

BTW, I am not saying CD'ing itself is a problem or issue, just paraphrasing to compare to mechanical systems.

While yes, there are sciences of the mind just as there are sciences of the world around us, I would not say that this is one of them. There are not a lot of variables to cd'ing, just "Does this make me feel good? (yes/no)" I would compare this to trying to reason out why someone who likes the taste of chocolate can't just stop liking the taste of chocolate.

[StacyC]

Why do I like vanilla ice cream?

I just do. And when I am craving vanilla ice cream, chocolate or mint just won't do it for me.

Simple as that.

[Fiona K]

Leaving aside the unintentional misogyny, I think the gender binary in which most here have been raised has a lot to answer for.

Compassionate men exist, just as cold, unempathetic women do.... with all points in between.
And it's my firm belief that any CD/TV is trans, maybe not in the same place on the spectrum as TS people but never the less still a transgender person.

Given this; most, in my experience are not driven by sexuality, though some are. Our femininity may only manifest itself when dressed, or not. For some the clothes are enough but for many the full package, including attempting (though not necessarily succeeding) to pass is very important. Still others want to go clubbing or just to a museum or the favourite of many, shopping.

The drivers are as varied as the individuals, we can't be easily pushed into one box or another.

The questions for any SO are understandable, my wife has asked them too. Even stating once that if the clothes were all it was then she'd accept it as just fetish. The seriousness with which many of us treat who and what we are disabused her of that notion.

There is little or no logic, even less real research and a hell of a lot of societal baggage that colours attitudes to us. Someday it may change but not anytime soon.

[TxKimberly]

I absolutely mean no disrespect but. . . .

Not sure why you started your post off with that since I think we are agreeing? That was my whole point in talking about the engineering systems - logic applies to these. Logic does not really apply to the situation of most of us though - logic has little or nothing to do with being transgender, be it cross dresser or transsexual, or somewhere in the middle.

PS - You never had to worry about offending me, because about the only thing that offends me is someone intentionally setting out to offend me. LOL

PPS - Do you have any idea how many people just dont get the "go back to when the last time it worked correctly and what occurred at the time so logic can be applied in figuring out what caused it to malfunction" concept, and this includes some of my co-workers?! On several service calls I will ask a customer "Did you do anything to the machine between the time that it worked and the time that it failed?" Then they tell me "Yes, I took this apart to do PM?" Invariable I go that part and find it unplugged or not put back together right. Why they didn't think to check this before they paid me a fortune to come out, I'll never know . . .

[Eryn]

On several service calls I will ask a customer "Did you do anything to the machine between the time that it worked and the time that it failed?" Then they tell me "Yes, I took this apart to do PM?" Invariable I go that part and find it unplugged or not put back together right. Why they didn't think to check this before they paid me a fortune to come out, I'll never know . . .

This part brought back memories of a place where I worked where the engineers were forbidden to touch any part of the xerox machine except for the operating controls. If it jammed we had to get a secretary or clerk to fix it. Seems that if they let the engineers open the machine they'd end up with the machine disassembled and an even larger repair bill!

Now, as far as CDing goes, my engineering logic just can't grasp it. There's no discernable pattern or functional procedure to get hold of so I just set that part of my personality aside and let the rest of me enjoy myself.

[sometimes_miss]

Femininity isn't an outfit!

No, it isn't. But dressing in stereotypically female clothing helps me feel like the girl I thought I was supposed to be. I don't feel 'right' when I'm dressed as a guy. It simply feels like the wrong outfit. Best analagy is this: Pretend you're at a formal function. Everyone else is dressed in tuxedos and evening gowns. But you're in a bathing suit. Even if it's a gender appropriate bathing suit, you're just going to feel somewhat uncomfortable. That's how I feel when dressed as a guy. It just doesn't feel right. It feels like a costume, like I'm pretending to be something I'm not. Exactly the opposite of how a normal male feels, a normal male would feel out of place if dressed entirely in female attire. Does that help explain why I'm almost always dressed as a girl?

[Angela Campbell]

Now, as far as CDing goes, my engineering logic just can't grasp it. There's no discernable pattern or functional procedure to get hold of so I just set that part of my personality aside and let the rest of me enjoy myself.

You just haven't disassembled it far enough yet! I too am an engineer.

[Soriya]

Not sure why you started your post off with that since I think we are agreeing?
logic has little or nothing to do with being transgender, be it cross dresser or transsexual, or somewhere in the middle.
PPS - Do you have any idea how many people just dont get the "go back to when the last time it worked correctly and what occurred at the time so logic can be applied in figuring out what caused it to malfunction" concept, and this includes some of my co-workers?!

Hiya Kim!

I started my reply that way because it's way to easy for people to get the wrong idea when reading just words. How often do we see that with email in the corporate world? LOL. It was simply a courtesy jesture since I don't know you.

I agree logic itself has nothing to do with TS, TG, CD, or anything. I was referring to how the same principles of using logic like we do with troubleshooting things does work with anything. In the case of a TS for example. All the mental work they have to put in before they can transition is by using logic. Is there a logical explanation of why they feel they are born as the wrong sex. Yes! It's just not 'scientifically' defined yet. Recent studies are pointing to the makeup of chromosomes and certain brain configurations in a TS but nothing is conclusive. We live in a society that defines things by fact, facts that can be 'physically' explained. If there isn't any hard data, it's left largely to debate.

I believe the same for CD'ing. I never knew why I did it and being I have always been one who wants to why something is what it is, it drove me 'bat-shit crazy' as you call it. I went back into my past for everything to find out why I react to certain situations like I did that made no sense. Someone would say something or act a certain way that would cause me to get upset, angry, whatever. The question was why do I get upset or angry of something so insignificant. By going back through my life with a clear open mind, I could see where those reactions came from, always from a single event early on in life. So as I got older, any situation that resembled that first even would automatically trigger me to react in an irrational way. By not understanding the entire situation, which I don't think most young children can do, my belief system was built purely off my feelings as a kid.

The more I looked at all the negative situations this way and learned all sides of the story, I stopped acting irrational to current situations for no apparent reason. Let's just call it a non-engineering logic. I then used that 'non-engineering' logic I used with all the other events of my life and went back and figured out why I started CD'ing. It took a lot of work and time to get through but was well worth the effort. I have no questions anymore why I CD'd or where it came from.

Because there is no statical data I can apply to what I did to figure it out, some may say I just found a convenient way to be OK with it all. That's OK if someone else thinks that, it worked for 'me' and that's what matters.

Oh and don't I know it in the I.T. world. We could share 'End User' stories all day long and laugh our asses off!

[LunaDarling]

You know, I think this is what I don't read much about here but what my H alwsys says. "it's fun!"

So you really can CD without feeling feminine which means it's not ALWAYS some big deep and meaningful experience and can just be about the clothes.

I still don't get those who do feel feminine yet dress like women. I guess a part of me feels sad that men can't just be who they are without a costume.

what makes a man in feminine clothes a costume? why should females own the rights to these specific styles of clothes? human gender standards are entirely co-created and hold only as much meaning as you give them. many cultures have no qualms with CDing and are very supportive of those choices. these reactions are completely mentally based and formed on the foundations of other priorities and preconceived notions. femininity has nothing to do with clothes, as masculinity has nothing to do with aggression. yes these are present in our gender culture, but they very easily could not be. femininity is to feel, nurture, support, encourage. masculinity is to do, protect, provide, solve. i believe that i can encompass all these traits because they dont have to be restricted to gender. individuals are the ones that decide to reject the other genders more default feelings as foreign or unnatural, when in reality, we are all humans who think and feel and act almost identically. its our fear that divides us. you dont have to understand someone or agree with them to accept them, or love them, or care for them. sorry if a came across harsh at all. its kinda an important topic to me...

[Fiona K]

Another thought, for the point of view of a wife I advise reading "My Husband Betty" by Helen Boyd. The answers aren't complete but you will get some insight from Helen's work.

[ReineD]

So you really can CD without feeling feminine which means it's not ALWAYS some big deep and meaningful experience and can just be about the clothes.

Yes, it can be fun but I think it is deeper than just liking the clothes.

When I first asked my SO "Why?", he told me it is as difficult as explaining why I might prefer butterscotch pie over apple pie, since how does one explain a preference for the way some foods trigger your taste buds.

So, maybe a better question than "Why" might be, "What do you get out of it, exactly?"

A lot of people in this thread have said, "It's just fun! It's an art form, I'm on stage, I enjoy the clothes, it's relaxing, etc".

To compare this to my love of butterscotch pie, I love eating it too ... but the difference is that I don't crave it. I don't need to eat it every week. Despite the fact that it is one of my favorite deserts, I do not eat it unless I happen to see it on a restaurant menu and even then, if I'm no longer hungry after my meal I will not order it. This is not what CDers do. CDers actively seek to crossdress on a regular basis, despite the potential negative outcomes that result from doing this in a society that does not accept the CDing easily, and even despite wives who are sorely against this. And if they do not crossdress, it affects their moods whether they become resentful or depressed.

So. There is a substantial payload other than "It's just fun, relaxing, I enjoy the clothes".

And since women's things are a great deal more feminine than men's things, it's not a stretch to say that the lure of being feminine (in comparison to guy mode) is powerful indeed, whether the roots all those years ago were sexual or not. This then begs the question as to WHY. Why is the lure of appearing feminine (compared to the guy self) so damn powerful, as to risk being found out and risk unhappiness in the marriage?

People can call it what they will, being "trans" or "not trans", "TG" or not "TG", "fetish" or "not fetish", whatever, it doesn't matter. But, the need to present in a feminine manner is deep indeed and it is complex, even if a person has no wish to ever transition.

[JenniferMBlack]

I can't answer this because it is all about the clothes for me.

[susan54]

Ha. ReineD does it again.

Firstly, her food analogy. Some people are addicted to chocolate or ice cream. Sometimes they just HAVE to have it. Usually these people are women.

Reine has not replied to my point that the clothes have an attraction in their own right, and there are a lot of women who have an uncontrollable urge to wear certain women's clothes. Some (but only some) cross-dressers feel the same way about them. Maybe it isn't that they are women's clothes, but that they are lovely CLOTHES. I feel I can look good in them without the make-up, wig or boobs, but admit I prefer to have the boobs (I only use the other twop to blend in when I go out in a skirt or dress). Sheer tights look better without leg hair, sleeveless tops or dresses look better without armpit hair. I admit I like to wear perfume, but again this smells nice in its own right. So you can take the clothes a very long way as a man without having to adopt anything that is genuinely feminine.

The first women to wear trousers had to endure abuse about dressing as men. No one sane would make that allegation now. I remain confident that 95% of my desire/need/obsession with womenswear is not actually gender related - it is a desire for stuff that is lovely to wear in its own right. Reine would have to admit that silky fabrics are lovely against the skin, heels make legs (whatever gender) look better, cotton dresses are cool in summer, and so on. Agreed, the bra and boobs are difficult - I am working in that one!

When I get home I like to have a shower and change into skirt or dress. I now spend so much time in these clothes I have forgotten what it is like to have an overpowering NEED to do so - now I am doing it because I can, and the thought of being in a skirt after work is pleasant partly because I am no longer at work. It is thus becoming hard to separate the skirt wearing from LIFE. No one else is affected by this, and my lifestyle involves a lot of solitary time anyway, so I might as well spend this in clothes I find nice to wear. There are lots of things I do that are great that do not involve being dressed in anything thought of as feminine, and these are so good that they distract me completely from thoughts of how much more nicely I could be dressed.

I am not only entirely heterosexual, but I love the company of women. I am masculine but not macho, and I am self-confident as a man (or out in public acting as a woman), and I m successful in my career. I love being male and would never want to become a woman - unless I could do so for a week or so as an experiment.

It is interesting to debate these issues but DM should realise that there are many, many different reasons why some men wear women's clothes. Those who claim it is just a stage on a journey to a gender re-assignment, or those who assert that to do this properly you HAVE to wear women's trousers sometimes are not speaking for us. Let us all do our own thing without telling us what to do and rejoice in our own differences as well as those between the genders.

So - acting is fun, and the more the part differs from you, the greater the fun. And clothes have an attraction independent of the gender they are usually assigned to. Two facets of a many-sided issue.