CD or TS? How does one know?

[Kathryn Martin]

Very nice question, a lot of wrong answers. Struggling with this question does not mark you as a transsexual. Many gender variant persons can feel a significant intensity to present full time as a woman. Almost all of them are fine being men but want to present differently, and this desire can be very strong to the point that they will transition but usually keep their male reproductive organs. Transsexuals are born as transsexual and they seek to be either women or men depending on how their brain is organized (but always not congruent with their bodies). They experience their bodies as defective, like a birth defect and will in all circumstances seek to correct this defect and move on living in their correct sex.

Transsexuals by and large do not re-transition. Research into outcomes has shown that 80% of those that transitioned are happy with their lives and simply move on being who they are.

Re-transitioning occurs mostly with gender variant persons who are high on the intensity scale but are not transsexual. Sometimes they actually seek surgery but regret it later. The cases are few and far between.

Transsexualism is not a choice. Transsexuals would give almost anything to not be who they were born as. It is a medical congenital condition that requires to be properly diagnosed.

[ReineD]

Different people use the same labels (see mostly #3) , so here is a description of the various individuals in our community rather than focusing on what to call them:

1. The Transsexuals:
Transsexual means just that: you want to change (cross/trans) your sexual anatomy because you do not feel that it belongs there. Not every TS is able to have SRS however … some are older and have medical issues that prevent the operation while others genuinely have financial constraints. But, these TSs see thier penises as useless appendages. A transsexual knows that she is female. She doesn't wonder about it.

2. The Gender Fluids
On the other hand, the gender-fluids who call themselves crossdressers (or any of the other labels: genderqueer, gender-variant, gender-non-conforming, etc) do not want to change their genitals. However, some CDs (and In-Betweenies or whatever name you wish to call people who question their gender identities or who are happy being in the middle) do want hormones and breasts even if they don't dress full-time, while others don't want hormones and breasts but want to dress every day, all day. This is common after retirement if the [which ever label you want to assign] is free to do so and is either single or has a cooperative wife.

3. The People Who Do Not Fit Either Of The Above:
And then there are the people who are difficult to classify: they would live every day as a woman if they could, they do want breasts, they do want to feminize as much as possible, many are on HRT and have taken steps to get rid of facial hair, but they don't want SRS (they do not have medical or financial constraints). There is a lot of debate as to whether this group of people are transsexual or not, since they do not want to change their genitals. Some of the people in this group are proud to call themselves transsexual as opposed to calling themselves a woman, the way that Transsexuals identify once they have SRS.

(I'm trying to be as PC as possible here :p)

4. The Classic Crossdresser
And of course there are the classic crossdressers who do identify as men and who have no wish to dress full-time, get hormones, have breasts, etc … even though they may have fun fantasizing about it. Some CDers fantasize intensely about this (while in Pink Fogs) to the point where they also wonder about their gender identities.

[kimdl93]

Good answer, Reine!

[Tina_gm]

I can't say that I have ever questioned myself all that much.... But I have seen a gender counselor and he was able to pretty quickly determine that I was not TS. The biggest thing on his list was that for me, its not hating being a guy. So for me, liking to be dressed or even having a feminine side that is more than just dressing in clothes, I do not hate being a guy, find enjoyment actually a lot of the time as being one. Sure, in a perfect world I would dress more or allow my feminine side to be more prevalent, but I do not hate being a guy, don't desire to change that aspect of me. Its adding or allowing the feminine side. If for you it is not a matter of hating what you were born with then no you are likely not TS.

[ReineD]

It's just amazing the number of members who question whether they are TS or not, once they move beyond just the clothes. It's been my observation that many (most?) crossdressers, providing they have life circumstances that permit this, will escalate and they will dress because they either feel feminine at times, or for comfort, or for other reasons that might be construed as identity reasons, as opposed to having it be purely sexual.

I think it's just hard for most people to see themselves as not being either/or male/female, but someplace that is outside of the gender binary. Instead, the minute that a CDer moves beyond the clothes s/he thinks that s/he must then be TS!

[cicigurl]

There are a lot of things going on here, and I think it sounds like you would benefit from more sessions with an experienced gender therapist. Your last line about how your wife isn't feminine because she's pregnant was very offensive to me. It's one thing to assess what you feel like inside; that doesn't mean you get to judge other people (whether genetic women or transwomen) as inferior.

And why are you thinking about your father being attracted to you? Do you think all fathers are sexually attracted to their daughters? That sounds like another issue for you to bring up with your therapist.

This is more of the fact that I know my father well and since I wasn't raise a female the normal phycological things didn't happen. What else are you suggesting?

[ReineD]

Cici, I responded earlier just after reading your first post and not the rest of the thread. I've read your other post and I think there is a lot of sexual fantasy in your life, especially if the need to be female comes up when you're under stress. Judging by the posts that I've read in the TS section, wanting to transition is a lot more than a desire to be a woman in the bedroom. This is only an opinion though, and I caution you to take it with a grain of salt.

You should see another gender therapist. Things do change over the years, even the training available for gender therapists.

[Michelle789]

Cici, welcome to the forum I would definitely go and see a therapist to help you sort out your gender issues. In my book, CD and TS are degrees of gender dysphoria, where a CD has a milder case and a TS a more serious case. I asked a similar question last month and got similar answers, only you know for sure and a gender therapist can help you sort that out. And do see a gender specialist, since regular therapists have no clue about gender.

One last thing, I don't like the words "merely" or "just" a crossdresser. Being a CD is a real part of who many of us are, and is real. TS is more extreme and requires changing the body and legal identity. There are also other in between identities too, such as gender queer, bigender, gender fluid, and others. I wish you the best on your journey. No one is "just" or "merely" anything, you are who you are.

Three years later and the whole thing hits me again. The interesting thing is that it comes at a similar time as before in that there is a lot of stress in my life. So which comes first the chicken or the egg? Does stress make me self sooth by feminizing or is my emotional net just simply overflowing now?

I think we show our true colors when we're under stress. If you're experiencing gender dysphoria under times of stress, that may be very well revealing something about yourself. I'm not gonna say that proves you're TS, but something is definitely going on with gender. I hope you find the answers and take the right path for you.

[Allesandra Rhodes]

I am neither. I live in that in between realm missed here. Transgender. It goes far beyond the clothes for me, yet I was not born knowing all of this. As I did learn who and what I was, I also found I am not totally TS either, in that I would never risk all or die trying to become what I believe I should be. It's not easy at all. I don't fit in the CD or TS world. I can relate to both although that confuses people. So I'm that third label. There's not an hour that goes by that I don't think about it. But this is what I am and I'm doing the my best to achieve simple happiness. All I really want to have is peace

[FoxxxyBri]

When i was new to the whole thing I was told by another girl not to even bother with defining it. Just go ahead and say TS. BUt really there is no definition. When its all said and done you're just YOU.

[ReineD]

I can relate to both although that confuses people. So I'm that third label. There's not an hour that goes by that I don't think about it. But this is what I am and I'm doing the my best to achieve simple happiness. All I really want to have is peace

Allessandra, honestly I think there are tons of members who call themselves crossdressers, but who consider themselves gender fluid like you. You're not alone!

[Badtranny]

I don't think being a CD is anywhere close to being a TS. It's not a progression from one to the other and I don't even think it's two sides of the same coin.

Being a MtF TS is like being stuck inside a man-suit and doing your best to fit in. CD's want to dress up and pretend to be women, when TS's just want to stop pretending to be a dude. That's about as simple as I can describe my experience.

Personally I think anyone who adopts a female persona on the internet, much less wears women's clothes is definitely having some kind of gender issue. Hell, we might ALL be TS as far as I know. Why would somebody dress up and call themselves Marsha otherwise?

I was born this way because my earliest memories are of wanting to be a girl but I can tell you honestly that I did not NEED to transition. I could have kept right on bumping along as a kind of odd dude, and never knowing true happiness, but still I would have been fine. I made it 42 years, so I could have made it another 42 if necessary. I was born with these feelings but I CHOSE to transition just as sure as I chose to have all the feminizing surgeries. It was the best decision of my life, even though it took a will of steel to get through many of the early days. Walking into a construction meeting when EVERYONE knows who I used to be. You couldn't intimidate me with a stick of dynamite after a year of that experience.

How do you know if you're TS? You just do. How do you know if you're right handed?

[NathalieX66]

A TS says "i'm a girl"

A CD says "I like to dress like a girl"

I have been fortunate to have met both, and made friends with both.

Me, I am known in the transgender world as gender fluid, I express both genders. That's a wonderful place for me. My TS friends don't feel the same way. They are one gender only....and it wasn't the one they were born as.

[DebbieL]

That is the $1 million dollar question. It seems so trite to say very simply "A cross-dresser is someone who wants to be a man, but likes to be a girl once in a while, while a transsexual is someone who wants to be a girl all the time, a girl trapped in a boy's body".

The problem is that it's never really that simple. I knew that I wasn't a typical boy at a very young age. I preferred to play with girls, do what girls do, and didn't like playing with boy, but I had no CLUE what a transsexual was - because I was only 3 years old at the time. I didn't even know this was a problem until I was in first grade and moved to a new school where, after several weeks of playing with the girls all the time, the teacher told me I had to stop playing with the girls and play with the boys instead.

At that point in my life, I'd only dressed up as a girl a few times, and while I enjoyed it, it wasn't a big deal, except that we all had fun doing it.

When I was no longer allowed to pay with girls, and the boys began to attack me violently for being a sissy, I isolated. I turned to reading books, and read a lot of non-fiction. But because I got lonely, I liked to dress like a girl when I could. Of course, as a 5 year old kid, I still believed in magic, in God, and wishes being granted. I always wished to be turned into a girl. I'd try every superstition and prayer I knew of, or heard of. Wishing on a star, prayers repeated, fasting and prayer, even the thanksgiving wishbone. When none of that worked, I lost my faith in practically anything. I still believed there was a God, but he didn't have enough power to turn me into a girl, so he had limitations. He also couldn't take away the desire for me to be a girl either. I even tried to wish that I could enjoy being a boy, and that didn't work either.

When my father gave me the "Birds and Bees" lecture, he had to explain why I didn't have testes - and said they were up inside my body, like ovaries - which gave me some hope.

When the testes dropped down, I was so sad, I wanted to die. When my body started changing, and I started growing hair, I got even more depressed. When I found out that I had a low bass singing voice, I got suicidal, turning to drugs and booze and trying to overdose and combine until I would go into black-outs. I saw therapists, including a psychologist, group therapy, and a therapist. Each time I got up the courage to tell them I wanted to be a girl, they shut me down, telling me I couldn't talk about it, and that terrible things would happen if I did. In those days, the "treatment" for transsexuals in most of the United States was a Lobotomy, but I didn't know that.

When I was condemned to a male body that couldn't be transformed into a girl (I didn't know it would still have been possible, but not likely). I got even more depressed and suicidal. I tried to accept the situation and hoped that when I started having sex with women, that would be enough to take away the feelings I was having. Instead, I found myself focusing on my partner's pleasure and unable to allow a partner to please me. I was too ticklish or sensitive to enjoy it. Relationships were few and far between, and when my secret was learned, the relationship usually ended.

I finally told one girl and she seemed to accept, so I married her. I hoped that having sex and a female partner would be enough. Instead, she became more masculine, and stopped wanting sex and didn't like the dressing. Secretly, I still wanted to transition, but I had no clue who I needed to talk to. It was only when the marriage was on the rocks and we went to a therapist to try and save it, that I was correctly diagnosed as transsexual. The marriage ended and I want to a gender councilor for transition counseling. He gave me homework assignments and we talked about the result. He told me that if I got to where I was living 128 (hours/week) as a girl, he would recommend hormones. During the transition, I lost over 120 lbs, dropping back to around 155 lbs. I would dance several hours a week for exercise. I had quit smoking, I went to more AA and NA meetings as Debbie, I developed a very positive attitude, and became an outstanding performer at work.

One of the problems for transsexuals is that transition has some horrendous consequences. Many of us have lost one or more parents, wives, children, child support, jobs, and have had to leave our family churches - because we were finally honest about who we were - and people couldn't accept it. In my case, my father couldn't accept Debbie, my ex-wife threatened to have ALL visitation revoked, but I'd still have to pay child support. I lost a job, had to move to a new city (twice), and had to change practically everything else. The clincher was when I was offered a chance to become a national leader, but had to stop dressing. Even though I knew I was transsexual and living a man meant living a lie every waking moment, I tried to give up the path of transition.

As a result, the conflict began to literally wreck my body physically. I had severe back-aches, was hungry all the time, seemed to be tired all the time. I gained even more weight, eventually doubling my weight eventually reaching over 340 lbs. I became very lethargic. I had headaches. Even with lots of effort, Atkins, then Weight Watchers, and so on, I was still only able to drop to 275. Eventually I suffered a heart attack, and a stroke. In both cases, I signed a DNR Advanced directive, hoping I'd just die on the table. I had another heart attack a few years later and even cored in the ER, but my body managed to recover - without extreme measures. There were no blockages, just a heart that had been working to hard.

I had told my second wife about being transsexual, but was so fat at the time, that I didn't think transition was an option. Eventually, I decided I wanted the good parts of being Debbie, so I started dressing in public more often, and soon after that I lost weight. I also shared about my experiences on my Facebook pages, including some pictures of me as a girl. When my dad was about to die, he told me "If I give you nothing else, I want you to be yourself, even if that means being Debbie". The rest of the week, Debbie took care of him, and he loved it. He died later that week and I spoke at his memorial service. After that, I realized that I wanted to transition. I started seeing a therapist and my health started to improve, along with my productivity, performance, and my ability to interact with others, even in "Rex Mode". I was soon living 128 again, and my wife told me she wasn't OK with me doing transition.

The crash and burn was faster than ever. Migraines, back problems, and heart problems started coming back and I would wake up and 3 AM with thought of shooting myself that kept me up until morning. By productivity tanked, and I got my worst rating ever. I reached the point where I was quietly becoming very suicidal. I even mixed up a "Prestone Cocktail" (Antifreeze and Gatorade - which would cause fatal liver and kidney damage, usually in less that 72 hours, and with no way to reverse it), but after taking a little sip, threw it out. I told my doctor how I was feeling and what I had done. She sent me to a psych ward. By the time my wife showed up, I had already come up with a recovery program, including more 12 step meetings and 12 step work, going to a gender therapist, and working through the issues required to transition. When my wife began to realize that this was really life-or-death, and I began to realize it too, I became much more serious about seeing the therapist. She realized after just a few sessions that I was MUCH happier when I was Debbie (I'd seen her as Debbie and Rex). I quickly accelerated to 128 and when I worked from home, was living 24/7 as a girl. My wife was giving me coaching on how to dress age appropriate and situation appropriate to "blend". It wasn't as much fun as wearing really sexy pretty clothes, but I quickly realized that when I took her advice, I could go ANYWHERE as a woman and wouldn't even be noticed, let alone get "clocked". Very important when you want to transition.

I'm now to the point where I'm on HRT and growing some nice breasts (38C), and now it's getting very difficult to pass as a male. I travel as Debbie (using Rex IDs with pictures that show me in long hair and make-up zoomed to hide gender indicators). I've even had TSA people do a triple take and say "there's no way you're a guy!". I had to deliberately give a "tell" so he could clock me.

I've struggled for 53 years, and I'm still struggling with barriers to transition. It's hard to call it a CHOICE, since the choice so often has such dire consequences, it's hard to imagine anyone wanting to CHOOSE all the changes, losses, and challenges of transition. On the other hand, it's quite obvious that the consequences of trying to NOT transition or DELAY transition, can be equally dire, even life threatening.

The problem is that it's very fluid across the transgender scale. There are many who are quite content to be guys most of the time and just want to dress for "Play". There are those who want to dress and be accepted as women, but still want to continue being men (often because they don't want the consequences of transition). There are those who know at a very young age what they are, but were unable or not allowed to do what is needed.

If your are just a cross-dresser, that's wonderful. If you are a transsexual, you have a hard road ahead of you, but on the other side is a wonderful new place.

Part of gender therapy is a series of exercises to see where you really are. This is one of the reasons that candidates in therapy have to get Real Life Experience (RLE) , and the therapist needs to monitor behavior and state of mind. Some people, long before they get to 128 levels of RLE, will realize that they don't like the hassle of putting on make-up, fixing hair, wearing foundation garments, and wearing the women's clothes every single day. They may even find themselves not wanting to transition. Others actually THRIVE on these same things, and often experience freedom and self expression - and authenticity - FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIVES! For them, they begin to see their time as males as "under-cover" or "Stealth mode", and begin to push themselves. They can't wait for the day when they can start going to work as women.

More answer than you wanted? GOOD!

[MatildaJ.]

This is more of the fact that I know my father well and since I wasn't raise a female the normal phycological things didn't happen. What else are you suggesting?

Thank you for explaining. As far as your wife feeling like a fat cow, have you tried reassuring her that she looks great, like a beautiful earth goddess or something? My husband acted like he was super attracted to me when I was pregnant, and that really strengthened our relationship.

[sandra-leigh]

Some people, long before they get to 128 levels of RLE, will realize that they don't like the hassle of putting on make-up, fixing hair, wearing foundation garments, and wearing the women's clothes every single day.

Those are not what make someone female or even recognized as female (though they might help.)

Melissa wrote "CD's want to dress up and pretend to be women, when TS's just want to stop pretending to be a dude." I find that to be a lot more relevant. Notice it does not say anything about makeup or hair or foundation garments.

I do know women who do not bother with the sort of external appearance factors that were mentioned. That doesn't make them non-women.

My transition is about what is inside me, not about how good I look to the outside. If I were given a magic potion / ultra-tech treatment to become a wiz at makeup, I still wouldn't be able to cover over the internal holes. What I really need now has little to do with externals: what I really need now is the certainty that transition is the right thing for me to do. Parts of me already know it, but other parts of me say keep saying that I can keep struggling through day after day and someday will change. "You can survive until lunch. After lunch, you can get through until 2pm and then you can sleep to get you through until evening. Things are unsettled, you can hold off on doing a name change..." To know would be a far better gift to me than a lifetime supply of foundation garments.

[mariehart]

Some interesting and revealing answers. I considered myself a CD or TV for much of my life. I wrestled with it of course but I knew for sure I wasn't TS because I believed I met few of the often clichéd requirements for being a TS some of which are trotted out on this forum as if they were golden rules. I came to this conclusion in the pre internet days when the only source of knowledge were help pages of magazines, tabloid headlines and the occasional TV programme, no pun intended.

So I couldn't be TS. Except that I am. Basically I ignored or explained away any clue that I was TS because stuff like that didn't happen to people like me and in any case there was nothing I could do about it growing up in seventies Ireland.

When I finally accepted it. I knew I could never go through with transition. You see I don't have the strength of character of others. This of course is another clue that I'm not really TS. It's ironic to see the almost macho pride that some transitioners display about their ordeal. I wasn't prepared to give up what little I had, good, bad or indifferent to pursue that goal. I'm not a survivor. I barely cope with life as it is. When it comes to sink or swim. I always sink.

So there are no black and white answers to this question. My suggestion to the OP is to step back a bit from the situation right now. The second post was a wall o text which implies it has all become rather intense right now. Any decision made in this atmosphere is bound to be wrong.

So how do you know you're TS? Well for me I just came to know it. It's not about clothes or how you dress or whether you're married or not or if you are attracted to men, women or both. Or whether you look or act feminine or cry easily or not. You don't feel like a woman. You just are, even when you look at your body in the mirror and see a man. In the end it's as simple as that.

[sometimes_miss]

I think a lot of people have a great deal of difficulty because they feel the need to be completely, and ONLY, one thing. One good example, is sexuality. Most people are heterosexuals. Some are homosexuals. And in the middle, are people who are attracted to, and turned on, by both. Now, most would think that means three different types. But that's not correct either; for there will be some who are attracted to same sex that appear the opposite sex, and some who are attracted to same sex but remain appearing and acting like the same sex, and you have the reverse as well.

As an example, there seem to be a much larger percentage of bisexual women out there who are only interested in feminine women, and masculine men. But not masculine women, or feminine men; a concept that lots of us CD'ers unfortunately have to face.

So, you don't have to be EITHER TS or CD. You can be a little of one, and more of the other. I live with this; I have some TS feelings, yet am not completely TS. And the TS part was mostly expressed by crossdressing and behaving in a stereotypical female manner, as well as seeking out activities and experiences that are most specific to females, while avoiding the same of males, all in an effort to make my mind feel congruent with my body by using visual, tactile and other sensory feedback to reinforce what I needed to experience in order to oh, 'feel comfortable in my own skin' for lack of a fancier way of putting it.