How can we change our view in society

[Jenniferathome]

... But someone has to initiate that change. ...

And I am doing exactly that. One person at a time. When I go out, I have positive experiences. The rock becomes sand. Now, as for support ing rights, I can state that I do support equal rights of anyone. In Idaho we had the "Add the Words" campaign. http://www.addthewords.org. I stood on the steps of the Capital Building. I wrote scathing emails and FB posts to my Governor and Senators. I will vote for the cause, but I will not throw rocks, threaten, or scream. Individuals can be the change.

[Princess Chantal]

Perhaps we need to work on, in my opinion - the biggest and most ingrained stereotype which is that we are out to deceive people. When I go out in public, I hope to make the notion of that my cross-dressing is not primarily for the sake of trickery and/or for some nefarious purpose.

[Michelle789]

Michelle...This is the start of a 'code of conduct'...we are jumping the gun, a lil'; but continue...we would also require a mission statement.

I don't think there needs to be a "code of conduct" for us. However, just think about it, if you start stripping in public places because you think you're trying to get some thrill out of it, you're setting a terrible example for the entire transgender community. I believe that showing the world that we're decent human beings is what we need to do. My so-called "code of conduct" are just ways in which we can achieve setting a positive example.

And my other point is this applies to everybody under the TG umbrella. CD, TS, genderqueer, and every other transgender identity or expression out there. We're trying to be visible and get people to change their perceptions of us from negative or non-existent to positive.

[Mia Brankovic]

Michelle...a Code of Conduct is simply common sense...I would sign onto a "no stripping in public" platform (my morals, ethics & values would allow any oath to a reasonable and just Code). However, Mission statements & Rules keep everyone looking down the same road...and going in the right direction. Rules suggest/imply planning...and no plan, no good.

Chantal: Transparency

Well...I've done it...I've just been purchasing Stationary for "Mia Brankovic: Female Impersonator"

[PaulaQ]

And I am doing exactly that. One person at a time. When I go out, I have positive experiences. The rock becomes sand. Now, as for support ing rights, I can state that I do support equal rights of anyone. In Idaho we had the "Add the Words" campaign. http://www.addthewords.org. I stood on the steps of the Capital Building. I wrote scathing emails and FB posts to my Governor and Senators. I will vote for the cause, but I will not throw rocks, threaten, or scream. Individuals can be the change.

Although we frequently disagree, Jennifer, I agree with you 100% on what you are doing. Being visible, living your life openly and honestly and using the normal political process for change will ultimately bring that change about. Kudos for your stance on "Add the Words," too.

You are exactly right. We aren't all great leaders. We don't all start movements. We don't all have to participate in protests - although you in fact did so. We just have to be visible. You are initiating change one person at a time, just as you say.

I honestly applaud your efforts.

[Marcelle]

Wow . . . this thread certainly has taken on a life of its own but it is all good debate.

When it comes to the TG spectrum we are diverse and on that we can agree. On one end we have the TS folks who have no choice and have to be out front in the Vanilla world as Lori indicated . . . kind of the TG version of forward "shock troops" leading the charge as they are visible each and every day of their lives. Behind them are the forward supporting elements and here we find those TG/CD folks who are out in the Vanilla world interacting on a part-time basis. In both these instances these two groups vary as well, some are just trying to survive in the world and others are more "direct action" (fighting for legislative change, advocacy groups, fighting for change at work, marching). However in either case they are doing what they see as relevant to them at the time. Will this force the world change and accept us? I think we can all agree not likely at this point in time. However I do agree with Jennifer that each little interaction even it just equates to tolerance begins to build a foundation from which acceptance can be built. I will have long shuffled off this mortal coil before we get there but I would like to think that I helped a bit in building the foundation .

So what about those who never go out. I like to consider these folks the "rear echelon support elements". They may get close to the front lines but will never see battle in the Vanilla world. However we cannot discount the amount of support they bring be it just waving the banner from the sidelines or going to TG safe venues and mixing with others to provide that support. This doesn't mean these folks are any less willing to fight for rights for the TG world but for personal reasons they choose not to come out. However I suspect if there was a demonstration to support the rights of all people a lot of these folks might show-up (yes in drab) to lend support. It takes a lot of people to win a battle and not everyone gets to be or wants to be on the front lines.

So while it is fine to say "Go out, make a stand, be proud" as Lori so rightly put . . . to do so you need to have thick skin and be prepared for the fallout as once you do that there is no turning back.

My premise is the same. One person at a time. One positive interaction after another. Marching on the street will not work. Awareness days will not work. We go out, act normal, Interact with the normals and things will change. There is no acceleration I can imagine.

Jennifer, I have to disagree on this point. When I accepted that I am TG and came out to my wife the next phase was to stop denying it in my life complete. I will not transition (not TS) but still spend about 40 percent of my time "en femme". I got tired of trying to hide that at work and decided to be quite open . . . so I am out at work. I don't dress at work as current military policy (Canadian here folks) does not allow me to do so. Even if it did, I am not certain I would. However, the current military policy makes accommodation for TS folks to dress in the target gender as part of real life experience. When I saw this was touted at the "TG Policy" I asked the question where is the inclusiveness of this policy. Why is it that I as TG who likes to present "en femme" part-time cannot have the same rights as someone who wishes to transition. For example, if I want to get my ears pierced I cannot because the studs need to stay in for about 5 weeks to allow the hole to heal correctly. Males cannot wear earrings in uniform (even plastic keepers) so I have no recourse. However if I was afford the same rights to express my gender variance, I could make an appeal to change the dress regulations to accommodate my gender variance and get permission to wear clear plastic keepers while the ear heals. Right now there is nothing that allows me do so. As well, on days when civilian clothing is authorized at work I am not allowed to wear "women's clothing" or present "en femme" should I choose. There is nothing saying I can't but there is not policy that says I can. So I asked the questions and was invited to a working group to address the policy writers . . . I went "en femme" and stated my case. I now work on the policy re-write.

So there is an acceleration of sorts from just going out. However, again it all goes to comfort level and how much exposure you are willing to risk and as I stated above, not everyone is prepared to risk everything. Does it make them less supportive? Nope. It is just up to others to give them voice and perhaps some day they will see it is not all that bad and take a few strides forward.

Hugs

Isha

[Mia Brankovic]

Isha...I concur.


My exploits are simply that: "mine"...I'm going to do what is best for me...and of course, I'll do it in "Mia fashion"

Hugs, back at you...

[missmars]

Counter-productive to acceptance. If only passable CDers were "allowed" in public, there would be no way for the public to see that men in dresses aren't a threat. They would see only men or women.
Some women dress and make up in ways that draw criticism here when CDers do the same. While you're banning some CDers from going out in public, be sure to ban those women, too.

I agree with Nicole

[pamela7]

To go to the original question " how do we change our view in society?"

i see a three-fold strategy.

1. we need to sort out our own self-image, personally and as a community
2. the right books, videos, films, documentaries, media that does shift public opinion - through our representative organisations perhaps?
3. one person at a time (Jennifer)

as part of this, educate the professionals - doctors, lawyers, politicians, teachers and heads, student and faculty bodies. this would look like leaflet and media campaigning, it would look like a small channel tv series focussing on CD in particular e.g. on community channel in the uk, it would focus on how harmless the CD is, how actually nice and less violent the CD folk are, perhaps links with quakers or other peaceful or harmless communities

if anyone wants to discuss practical steps and ways to address the initial question of this thread - then contact me, i'm in.

xxx Pamela

[ManMadeMan]

Hi, I read that. I agree, to a point. To ban anyone from being or expressing who they are, be they CD's LGBT or straight. Is basically, " segregation." I have voiced this at the oval-office. It had an effect for change. However the change is coming slowly. I am truly saddened, by the fact that anybody would have to be segregated, by ones who do not understand. What difference does it make to what a person wears, expressing themselves. As opposed to what they think they see...Change.
Often change scares those who find it over whelming. To have their small perception's, of to what our society on a whole, should be like. A prime example of the change, is Kristen Beck. She is running for Congress in U.S. Be more public, if you are comfortable there, cross dressed. The more the nay say'ers, see that it does not bother most, then perhaps, if they can not change. At the very least they can keep their feeble opinions to themselves. "As the ones who baulk in ignorance, are steadfast becoming old news."~GJ

Look me up on tweet'n site Pamela. Some of my UK followers, may be able to help you see the practical steps become a positive reality of acceptance.
I am at..(the wee symbol for it) AA4F Gregory J. Thedore, there. Look forwards to chatting.
Peace Out!

[Aylineira]

I agree with some of the posters.

The only way to change perception is by those of us who are crossdressed to go out and mingle and do everyday things en femme and be a "normal" person.

I always applaud those that already do this on a every day basis because slowly they are the ones who are changing the face of our world.

[PaulaQ]

1. we need to sort out our own self-image, personally and as a community
2. the right books, videos, films, documentaries, media that does shift public opinion - through our representative organisations perhaps?
3. one person at a time (Jennifer)

I'm just going to put this out here, and say it the way it is. Crossdressers need to stand up and work with the rest of the transgender community to make real political changes for us in our society. That means a bunch of you coming out, and owning this, and standing up with the rest of the trans community.

There are a lot of crossdressers. But y'all get benefits like being able to safely go out en femme, use public restrooms that correspond to your gender, largely through the efforts of other transgender people - particularly transsexuals. The thing is, the rest of the trans community is tiny - we're between 0.3% and 1% of the population. And most of us are dirt poor. We rely on help from the Gay and Lesbian community to get anything done. The problem is that historically, the "LGB" of "LGBT" have been quite unreliable allies. (Let's leave the poor "bisexuals" out of this - they don't get much better treatment in the L&G community than we do - they just generally have much better options to be stealthy.)

In the 80's, the gay and lesbian movement just dumped trans people, and a radical feminist lesbian helped shape public policy against medical treatment for trans who transition. They've thrown us under the bus with ENDA, and even in local politics that I am dealing with here at home, today, the LGB groups have little to know trans representation in them, and they still throw us under the bus to get stuff they want, even if it comes at the expense of transgender people.

I expect that gay marriage will become the law of the land - which it should be in my view. When it does, it is unclear what the greater gay and lesbian movement will try to achieve next. Depending on the political climate here, I worry that a more conservative leaning US could strike out against transgender people in backlash over gay marriage. And my fear is the gay and lesbian groups could simply allow that to happen - severing ties with us altogether. And folks, if that happens, people like me are 0.3% of the population. And it really doesn't take that much to make our lives impossible. Without support from a larger group, we would have no power to stop such things.

Think this is impossible? Think I'm paranoid? I watched this happen in the 80's. It was around the time I first considered transition. Did you know that in the late 70's, some health insurance providers here in the states began to provide for coverage of transgender medical care. What happened? Conservative politicians, partly given aid and cover by lesbian and gay groups, pulled the plug on that. Our rights moved backwards, while gay and lesbian rights advanced, albeit slowly. Perhaps it would've been different had it not been for AIDS, but I doubt it.

The cis people in the United States, at any rate, by and large do not understand us. A lot of them are highly transphobic. It is easy to stigmatize and demonize us. Our gay and lesbian allies are really, in my personal experience, very little better about understanding us. I live in the heart of the gay community in Dallas. I have a ton of gay friends. Almost none of them really understand what I go through, or why I go through it. The gay and lesbian political groups I've dealt with have been little better. Indeed, I've been told, numerous times, very politely mind you, to STFU by these groups. Some friends, huh?

Stand up. Make a difference. Fight for protection against discrimination against trans people because you are fighting for yourselves, as well as transsexuals like me. Shouldn't you be able to openly express this part of you, without fear?

Well, whatever you choose to do, I'll still fight to support the CD side of the trans* community. But I can tell you this - if you think the greater gay and lesbian population gives are damn about heterosexual crossdressers, you are sadly mistaken. They may be shaky allies for transsexuals, but for the most part, they know nothing about you, and care even less. (For lesbian and gay folks who are supportive, or are trans yourselves who may read this - I'm really not talking about you. I just meet so few who even really try to understand the issues of a trans person. I do get a lot of "don't worry, we'll come back for you!" Or "well, civil rights changes take time - wait your turn and be patient." Or sometimes even someone who clearly doesn't understand me well explaining to me just what I need to be protected. Oh there is an awful lot of all of that.)

[Kate T]

Grow up, own it and lose the chip on our shoulder. Oh and for crying out loud, stop whinging and complaining about how we get such a rough deal when we will quite happily go along with the discrimination against women that a fair number of us perpetuate (e.g. Why don't women wear dresses or makeup anymore. Because they are sick and tired of having to conform to society's view of the "ideal" woman).

[pamela7]

Crossdressers need to stand up and work with the rest of the transgender community to make real political changes for us in our society. That means a bunch of you coming out, and owning this, and standing up with the rest of the trans community.

The nail and the head meet, when the secret is so private even the SO does not know, when the % population is (allegedly) so small, when the % of CD/TS/TG being LBG is so small, when there is antipathy towards CD from L and G, it shows us what we need to do.

1. Explain ourselves, a CD manifesto
2. Demand an equal representation at the LGBT leadership table with the LGB's
3. Point out the sillinesses - a) okayness for women in man-clothes but not vice versa, b) okayness for hysterectomies but orchidectomies require years of psychiatric treatment?, c) actors wear wigs and make-up, no big deal, d) the likes of Izzard and Brand crossdress with no problem, e) the sillinesses in our own minds
4. Publicise that things are changing e.g. Selfridges in London going unisex in all 3 clothing floors for adults, make ourselves look a bigger minority than we are, find closet politicians - there will be some,
5. explain through a TV series, as the big-bang theory does for high-functioning autism
6. explain through reality TV / internet, and ...

separate CD from TG/TS ... expand LGBT to LGBTC, and get 2 seats on the table with LGB

[Danitgirl1]

By looking out ofi a different window!
Flippant comment but it has a deeper meaning.
Perhaps if we change the way we view ourselves, we would change the way others viewed us?
Easy to say, hard to achieve.
We all need to accept who we are, be proud of ourselves.
Be polite and productive members of society but be unapologetic.
United we stand divided we fall.

[NicoleScott]

...find closet politicians - there will be some...

What got my attention is not what you said, but what you didn't say. Staying on topic (How can we change our view in society), how can FINDING closet politicians change the view?

[pamela7]

What got my attention is not what you said, but what you didn't say. Staying on topic (How can we change our view in society), how can FINDING closet politicians change the view?

1. it would change my view, because then I'd know people with the ability to propose legislation are onside, albeit secretly.
2. politicians are by their very nature top networkers. if they put their mind to it they could risklessly connect media/inlfuencers to put out subtle messages
3. a politician wanting to prove their diversity credentials might be persuadable to champion a minority without a champion, if they're in the closet, then maybe they can see personal benefits, at least after they retire!

PS I'm a natural rule-breaker ... keep telling me why we can't and i'll smash down those objections and a path to wider acceptance of our demographic!!! I'll huff and i'll puff and i'll blow those piggy-houses down!

[Lily Catherine]

Guess it really starts at the individual level for now, behaving like 'normal people' (a term that I dislike, but feels slightly more favourable compared to 'typical') and generally being harmless and of good will. If we're a larger minority than we seem, the entropy would increase over a larger area of effect. That again being said, I daresay some of us (myself included) have our concerns and/or worries about the resultant fallout. One word out, and even the fastest team of horses would never catch up with it (Chinese proverb, loosely translated). But if we succeed – a twenty-foot-tall 'IF', at least that would break down the stereotypes some muggles have of us.

*sigh* Sadly, the media is generally not quite ahead as far as I know with cross-dressing, and the social deviant aspect is in my opinion overplayed to the point of annoyance; even 'comedic value' or cross-dressing for laughs is no longer funny past that point. Within the anime scene for one, this one 'comedy' series entitled Himegoto gave us CDs a very, very bad name, and that's in all honesty an understatement. As far as cures go, nothing really much within our agency as individuals. Hopefully we get portrayed in a more positive light than what the mainstream media makes us out to be; I can no longer stand CDs being treated as either the subject of a joke, or an extreme case of deviancy without exception. :Angry3:

That said I have a larger grouse with the broad brushes that we're always painted with thanks to those on the more extreme end of social deviancy (read: wearing only lingerie out, performing lewd acts in public en femme, etc.), but once again the most idealistic belief in going out into the vanilla world as life goes on would have that covered, emphasis being on 'exception' being 'exceptional' rather than every other case.

Perhaps we need to work on, in my opinion - the biggest and most ingrained stereotype which is that we are out to deceive people.

Would say this is one of the cruxes of it, in the sense of 'disguised in drag' - a common Shakespearean notion, incidentally – what the heck with successfully passing being considered a Holy Grail. I posit that intentions form a major part of their assumptions (where do you think the term 'trap' comes from?). Couple this acquired narrative of deception with the fact that many of us CDs have been compelled to hide this side of us – emphasis on hide and its negative connotations and you have a cocktail of generally bad intentions. Once again, assumptions that make a colossal a** out of you and me and especially the assumer.

[Katey888]

Pamela, I admire your spunk with this subject...

I've pondered on the idea of the closeted celeb or politician a while back, but I keep coming back to reality on a number of views but the biggest kicker for me is this one:

- Before you even go looking for a closeted bigwig to come swishing and click-clacking out of the closet, take a look at the entire western world and western culture and name THREE, serious, influential, crossdressing individuals - not including transexuals (who, after all, are really trying to present and live as their internal self identifies)...

I think we kid ourselves on a couple of points that are salient to how we may be received by normal society:

1) That there is a relatively high percentage of MtF crossdressers in the general population
2) They would all suddenly come flying out of their closets if CDing hit any sort of political agenda

I don't mean to be cynical, but take the example of Tim Cook, Apple CEO... he was a long, long way up that greasy pole before he declared his sexual orientation, and the LGB community are far better protected and accepted than we are...

I just don't see it... don't get me wrong, I'm not against campaigning, but I don't see any politicians in our community revealing their 'inner selves' as a big part of the way forward... but I wish I was wrong...

Katey x

[NicoleScott]

Pamela, all valid points, but I'm interested to know that if you found a closeted crossdresser politician you would respect his decision to remain private at this time, or to advance your agenda you would huff and puff and blow his closet down. Would you out him?

[LilSissyStevie]

Am I missing something? Is there some right that CDs desperately need that they don't already have? What laws need to be passed? The only thing I can think of is laws giving CDs the trivial "right" of taking a crap in the women's bathroom. That's not something I care about. Other than that, I don't remember anyone kicking down my door and confiscating my petticoats. However, there are plenty of "trans* friendly" politicians that want to take away rights guaranteed to me by the Bill of Rights. A pox on them all.

[AngelaYVR]

Nothing we do as CDs is illegal. The only grey area is bathroom use. I am not part of some global advancement group nor do I need to be.

[pamela7]

Pamela, all valid points, but I'm interested to know that if you found a closeted crossdresser politician you would respect his decision to remain private at this time, or to advance your agenda you would huff and puff and blow his closet down. Would you out him?

oh no, i did not intend to say i'd out him. I'd play on the idea life would be easier for him AFTER he's retired from politics.

I just don't see it... don't get me wrong, I'm not against campaigning, but I don't see any politicians in our community revealing their 'inner selves' as a big part of the way forward... but I wish I was wrong...

Katey x

no, they don't need to reveal, just get support happening as part of their natural horsetrading ... "my mate is a CD'er, actually they're mostly 100% hetero guys who like cd-ing, ..., and I'd like to know I've helped him and his friends before I leave office" ...

[Pat]

Nothing we do as CDs is illegal.

Probably not now, but in the early 60's my uncle was on the Boston vice squad and I recall him telling me about a nightclub raid where they arrested men for wearing women't clothing. I didn't get the sense that Boston was unique in this regard. Tolerance hasn't always been in fashion and the danger is that it might go out of fashion at some point and without a legal underpinning you have no rights.

[Genifer Teal]

One thing is for sure. Parents do not want crossdressers near their children! I was out my second time out, in Seattle in 2005, and a family in a car parked next to mine, had a dead battery. The father reluctantly had to ask me ,(all dressed up, in short dress, and dark hose, and high heels), for a battery jump. So, as i would always do, in guy mode, said yes i will. He then told his children, to not look.

If he said that right in front of me, I would have said something back. Normally I never speak my mind but if I am to help him, I must. I would have asked him to apologize, then tell his children not to judge people until you know them. After all, you were helping him, that should speak something to our character. If that was too much, forget the jump. Call tripple A and wait an hour. If you hate us that much you deserve it.