Why so many more MTF, than FTM dressers, and TS?

[Alice Torn]

It seems like so many more MTF dressers, and TG, and TS, than FTM. Any ideas why? Is it the desire to be non macho, and to be pretty, and beautiful, or something deeper? I think part of it is men feeling like they are obsolete, and that men are not needed anymore. Female beauty is valued more, than masculinity. My dad wanted all daughters, but got three sons, and his first child, a handicapped daughter. He was frustrated,resented his sons, but would be aghast if he knew i dressed up beautifully.

[vicky_cd99_2]

As my daughter say "we all start out as females in the womb". It could be that more of us retain some of that than the girls picking up testosterone. Just a thought.

[Taragirl427]

Thats a pretty big question. I'd say that since no one is really certain why people CD in the first place, the likelihood of a definitive answer is slight. My personal $.02 is that males are a lot more restricted in their roles and behavior by society than females are. Its a lot more acceptable for a woman to have masculine tendencies than a man to have feminine ones. So perhaps guys with feminine tendencies feel the need to suppress and hide these things and it manifests as CDing. IIRC true TS are rare. Probably both FtM and MtF. I guess what I'm trying to say is there is a spectrum of behavior for both genders but for males it seems more pressure is placed on them to conform and be "manly". I think those restrictions are loosening though, these days. Hope that made sense!

[Alice Torn]

Vicky, that could be.

Tara, I tend to agree. Males are restricted, in roles, and clothing, kind of like "straight jacketed", and it is very confining, and stifling. Dressing is kind of an escape from that.

[sometimes_miss]

Why so many more MTF, than FTM dressers, and TS?

Well for one thing, right now there are more restrictions on men's wear than woman's; there are plenty of crossdressing women, but you simply don't notice them. A woman can wear men's clothing with no one ever noticing at all. The opposite is not true. AFA mtf TS, that again is a reflection on what is currently 'allowed' by our society as well. A woman can be a lumberjack, plumber, soldier, cop, etc., in fact, society has made many exceptions in what is required for lots of professions where physical strength used to prevent women from entering those jobs. However, you don't see much of the reverse, I suppose mostly because of the stigma connected. Men are still subject to ridicule should we want to be a nurse, hairdresser, secretary, flight attendant, server with any all female staff, etc.. While it's still pretty common for men to poke fun at other guys in those professions, you don't hear any jokes about women in men's professions. It's because a man wanting to take a traditionally female place in society is still looked at as a step down in status, whereas a woman doing the opposite is considered taking a step up.

no one is really certain why people CD in the first place, the likelihood of a definitive answer is slight.

Actually, that's not quite right. While we can't determine the reasons why ALL of us crossdress, for some, it's pretty obvious. Others, not so much. The big stumbling block is trying to define everyone with one stroke of the brush. This is primarily because what we do is considered by many to be a disease, and modern medicine always tries to narrow down the disease cause into one, single thing. However, what it is, is behavior. And you can't determine a behavior as the result of one, single cause. In fact, I'm still surprised that anyone here still posts questions about this. Maybe the search function still doesn't work?

[Sara Jessica]

Right, all this societal stuff figured into what was in my brain at the age of 4 or 5

[Tammy12]

One aspect is that Mothers take more of an early role in child raising than the Father. This gives the Mother more opportunity for influence, if she chooses.

[Sandra]

There is FtMs around but most people assume that they are butch lesbians and are ignorant to the fact that FtMs even exist.

We used to have quite a lot of FtMs here but they were driven away by some of the MtFs, in the fact that they were called girls and not men and were always being told that they had it easier than an MtF, I will state for the record that most of this was said by cders and not TSs.

[flatlander_48]

Something I read recently stated that traditionally F2M's had been under reported, but that current trends had been working in the direction of closing the gap. Anyway, that deals with the statistical aspect, but not the underlying question.

Of the 2 groups that I've become involved with recently, one is about 50/50 crossdressers to transexuals and the other is maybe 75% transexuals and 25% crossdressers. Neither are what I would have expected.

DeeAnn

[Dianne S]

There are far more MtF cross-dressers because wearing men's clothes usually does nothing for women. Wearing women's clothes is exciting or relaxing for (some) men for a whole variety of reasons that have been endlessly hashed on this forum.

I don't agree about the TS ratio, though. I believe there are about as many FtM as MtF transsexuals. It's just that FtMs usually have a pretty easy time to go stealth, so they tend to be less visible as trans people than MtFs.

DeeAnn's comment is interesting. I joined a local support/social group in 1993, and it was about 90% crossdressers / 10% transsexuals. For a variety of reasons, I dropped out of the trans community around 1995 and only rejoined in late 2013. That same local support/social group now consists of about 65% transsexuals / 35% crossdressers, a huge shift from before. (And I've shifted from believing I was a CD in the 1990s to knowing I'm TS in 2014.)

[Sandra]

It's just that FtMs usually have a pretty easy time to go stealth, so they tend to be less visible as trans people than MtFs.

See what I mean.... comments like this is what drove the FtMS away from here.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn's comment is interesting. I joined a local support/social group in 1993, and it was about 90% crossdressers / 10% transsexuals. For a variety of reasons, I dropped out of the trans community around 1995 and only rejoined in late 2013. That same local support/social group now consists of about 65% transsexuals / 35% crossdressers, a huge shift from before. (And I've shifted from believing I was a CD in the 1990s to knowing I'm TS in 2014.)

As my involvement can be measured in months, I don't know the history of either group and how the demographics have changed over time. However, it is an interesting thought and maybe I can find out more.

See what I mean.... comments like this is what drove the FtMS away from here.

Is that really negative commentary or more related to societal perceptions and realities?

DeeAnn

[cheryl reeves]

i would like to know how ftm's have it easier the mtf's?

[Zylia]

We used to have quite a lot of FtMs here but they were driven away by some of the MtFs, in the fact that they were called girls and not men and were always being told that they had it easier than an MtF, I will state for the record that most of this was said by cders and not TSs.

Nice job blaming the staff's failure to create a safe and friendly environment for FTM members on the largest group of people on this forum. Why is this even here? If we cannot openly criticise the staff, maybe you shouldn't criticise the community as a whole either.

As for 'real' numbers, in the Netherlands, the one institute that handles most gender issues in the country reports a 3 to 1 ratio of MTFs to FTMs. One could think that these figures are slanted because more FTMs get by without medical help, but there's no scientific basis for that. A real answer to the question cannot be found without delving into the true cause of gender incongruence, or how people end up with a gender dysphoria diagnosis.

A cross-dresser is almost always MTF. I've yet to meet a genuine FTM cross-dresser with the same emotional (or erotic) needs as the regular MTF crowd. For many if not most cross-dressing men, their cross-dressing is tied to sexual excitement. Men and women have different sexual needs. You might as well ask why there's way more pornographic material aimed at men. For what it's worth, 'autoandrophilia' (i.e. a woman who is aroused by the thought of herself as a man) is deemed non-existent, at least as part of an 'official' DSM diagnosis, by the writers of the latest DSM revision including Blanchard.

[PretzelGirl]

In my area, I can't say that one number is more than the other. I have lots of trans* friends and there are a large number of FTM, MTF, and others across the spectrum (bi-gender, gender queer, gender fluid, etc). I will admit that when I identified as a crossdresser, I saw a lot less of everyone that was outside of the MTF identification. Basically a product of my own thoughts and actions and not the true reality.

[kimdl93]

I don't think our membership is necessarily reflective the relative numbers of FTM and MTF in society. This is a somewhat selective sample. Why? I would guess that very few FTM see themselves primarily as CDrs, but rather see themselves as TG. With that perspective, one can understand that they may tend to seek out forums that are more reflective of their identity, rather than a group that, at least by the name, seems more about clothes preference than gender preference.

[Sandra]

Nice job blaming the staff's failure to create a safe and friendly environment for FTM members on the largest group of people on this forum. Why is this even here? If we cannot openly criticise the staff, maybe you shouldn't criticise the community as a whole either.

We didn't fail to create a safe and friendly environment for the FtMs, but some of the cders just couldn't help but having ago at them, the staff enforced rules when things got out of hand but in the end the FtMs just had enough. I am not criticising the community I am stating a fact, if fact if you read my post again that you quoted I said SOME not the whole community please get your facts right when replying. You just need to think all this happened before you joined and you didn't see what went off. As for you comment about criticising staff, staff accept constructive criticism but it will not be aired on the main forum.

Is that really negative commentary or more related to societal perceptions and realities?

Well seeing as the FtMs left they must have taken it as negative commentary. One thing that people need to think about is that most of the FtMs identified as TS and not cders and to be told that they are women and called she/her was a kick in the teeth to them.

[Nadine Spirit]

Throughout history there are examples of cross gender expression from both males and females. So I don't think we can lay "blame" with anything in recent history as to creating gender variant behaviors. Thus things like "males are now obsolete," just don't make sense to me.

As to there not being many FTMs on this site, I think what Sandra is saying would appear to make sense. There is often much discussion here surrounding how great it is to be a woman, well I have to assume that FTMs don't really agree with much of those thoughts.

[audreyinalbany]

maybe its because women are attractive and men are not…. (well, to me anyway)

[Alice Torn]

Nadine Spirit, I have seen an unmistakable trend, for decade. The male energy under attack, down in the ashes, as poet Robert Bly called it, in his book, "Iron John", in the ealy 1990's. One would be blind to not see it. Not all bad, by the way, but real. The female energy has been flying higher and higher, in western nations. Not some other nations, though, where CDing with gender would be dangerous. The male and female genders, CAN both be very good, though, but in this cruel world, sadly, a war. Masculinity has been devalued, though. I know, as i am a man.

[Sarah-RT]

As my daughter say "we all start out as females in the womb". It could be that more of us retain some of that than the girls picking up testosterone. Just a thought.

I like to think this is a possibility of why we are the way we are, since supposedly we start off as female before becoming male, i figure maybe somethings get muddle along the way.

[flatlander_48]

Well seeing as the FtMs left they must have taken it as negative commentary.

If that was the case, they were walking around with blinders on as the original statement was clearly true. As viewed by society in general, women in a flannel shirt and jeans will attract A LOT LESS attention than a man in a dress. Women in flannel shirts and jeans is a frequent occurrence in the general population, regardless of sexuality. Patently not true for men dressed in women's clothes.

As to there not being many FTMs on this site, I think what Sandra is saying would appear to make sense. There is often much discussion here surrounding how great it is to be a woman, well I have to assume that FTMs don't really agree with much of those thoughts.

It depends, as a function of perspective. I would doubt that folks who consider themselves as F2M are thinking about women in society. I suspect that they are looking at things from their own perspective and where their own sensibilities sit in terms of the gender role that should be theirs. I don't think people are sitting around thinking that they do not want to continue as women based on how they are treated in society at large.

Masculinity has been devalued, though. I know, as i am a man.

Largely, we brought this on ourselves. Why did we assume that women had to be kept barefoot and pregnant? Why did we assume that women should not have the vote? Why did we assume that women couldn't run major industrial organizations or governments? Had we taken a more wholistic and inclusive approach, things would have been a lot better. This is how it loops back to male privilege.

Whenever you are in the midst of an unreasonable and unfair situation, there is always the option of deciding not to continue. But, EVERY time when a group has raised their hand and asked for rights and protections that others automatically have, it has ALWAYS been met with resistance; very harsh resistance.

[Rianna Humble]

Nice job blaming the staff's failure to create a safe and friendly environment for FTM members on the largest group of people on this forum.

Yours is a not very nice try at blaming staff for the hostility that MtF members demonstrated towards the FtM members. There was a safe area, but as soon as they poked their nose out into the more public areas of the forum, there were people waiting to snipe at them much as you are trying to snipe at staff. Could your words stem from a guilty conscience?

If that was the case, they were walking around with blinders on as the original statement was clearly true.

Just because the hate speech occasionally contained an element of part truth did not make it any less hurtful for the FtM members. In the same way that your insult towards the FtM is hurtful to any remaining members. It does not become any less insulting merely because in your not so humble opinion there was an element of truth in the hatred spewed by others against them

[Lorileah]

So much Bull...so little time. How about maybe FtM's don't need to whine about their lives? How their SOs treat them badly?

This, in my opinion, shows that the closeted CDs have no idea what is happening in the world. I have several friends who are FtM ( Pre and post Op). As far as going out...you don't have a clue how many FtM "crossdressers" there are because they don't make it a big sexual deal with oversized genitalia or camping it up. They just go out and be who they are. Could be that in your little world you are so focused on looking for clues to a MtF that you ignore any FtMs.

Who, in the name of all that is holy, is attacking men and being male? Men make 30% more than women. Men are treated differently in business both as customers and as workers than women. Another closeted perception in my opinion. Get out, see the world from a female perspective. I have been treated like I dropped 50 IQ points by those poor put down men.

In RE: this site. When I joined we had a good contingent of FtMs, but the MtF's saw fit to pelt them with the same crap that is used on the GGs. Poor you, no one understands poor you...

You were very unwelcoming to the guys when they were here...sometimes nasty.

You want to know why there aren't more FtMs on this site...check the boards. What do YOU have to offer them? Maybe they have their ducks in a row and don't give a darn about new shoes or panties or sneaking out to feel how it feels to be a guy. Maybe they are just trying to survive

[flatlander_48]

Could your words stem from a guilty conscience?

The exodus would have to have happened since July, 2013 in the context of the forum.

You want to know why there aren't more FtMs on this site...check the boards. What do YOU have to offer them? Maybe they have their ducks in a row and don't give a darn about new shoes or panties or sneaking out to feel how it feels to be a guy. Maybe they are just trying to survive

Sorry, Apples and Oranges...

Just because the hate speech occasionally contained an element of part truth did not make it any less hurtful for the FtM members. In the same way that your insult towards the FtM is hurtful to any remaining members. It does not become any less insulting merely because in your not so humble opinion there was an element of truth in the hatred spewed by others against them

That was NOT an insult. It was a reflection of the perceptions in the general populace and is a statement of fact. I didn't create them and I certainly do not try to perpetuate them. But, regardless of what I said, that does NOT make it any less true.

As a bisexual, I have often heard that we are in perpetual stealth mode as we don't appear any different from anyone else. True. If we wanted to back up from same-sex intimacy, we can always go back to being regular heterosexual people. That is also true. While I'm fairly certain that the opinion is more widespread than the reality, clearly it can and does happen. I cannot change the reality just because I don't like the statement. That's like Revisionist History.

DeeAnn