Discussion regarding Caitlyn Jenner

[jenni_xx]

Awesome guilt by association

Caitlyn has been in the news, every single day for quite some time now here in the UK. As indeed have the whole Jenner/Kardashian clan. They are, and remain, newsworthy because of the reaction in people they provoke. In the UK, the whole family isn't, by and large, looked on favourably, and many view all of them with disdain. Many people have an opinion about these kind of "reality stars", and they are largely frowned upon and ridiculed. Unfortunately, the whole "issue" with Caitlyn has added fuel to this perception that people have. Reading messages on newspaper websites (written in response to the latest Caitlyn article that (many feel) is being "pushed down our throats"), a common theme throughout is one that no longer wants to hear any more about it. Seen as a farce, a circus act that adds to the perception that the entire family is just a farce, a circus act. They are, simply put, regarded as a family who, for many, should not be taken seriously.

As a consequence, Caitlyn is also seen by many as someone who should not be taken seriously either.

While I agree completely with the point you are making Lorileah, unfortunately this "guilt by association" is very real in people's minds, and in turn doing us no favours whatsoever. Caitlyn, through no fault of her own, it can be argued, is doing more harm than good. And it saddens me deeply that that is the case. At least here in the UK. (I can not, and will not speak for the effect it is having in other countries).

One thing I have thought about - given that this website regards itself as the number one community for crossdressers, families, and friends, and has a large section devoted to transsexuals, has Caitlyn ever ventured here?

[PaulaQ]

As a consequence, Caitlyn is also seen by many as someone who should not be taken seriously either.

While I agree completely with the point you are making Lorileah, unfortunately this "guilt by association" is very real in people's minds, and in turn doing us no favours whatsoever. Caitlyn, through no fault of her own, it can be argued, is doing more harm than good. And it saddens me deeply that that is the case.

How can they take us less seriously than they do? We are not human beings from the perspective of big chunks of the people on planet earth. We are frequently assaulted and murdered simply for who we are. Who the hell cares whether or not they take us seriously? That isn't our most pressing problem, although it is a problem. They need to see us as human beings - or that at least we exist in some form other than highly murderable drug addicts and prostitutes.

One thing I have thought about - given that this website regards itself as the number one community for crossdressers, families, and friends, and has a large section devoted to transsexuals, has Caitlyn ever ventured here?

There is simply no way to know.

[jenni_xx]

How can they take us less seriously than they do? We are not human beings from the perspective of big chunks of the people on planet earth. We are frequently assaulted and murdered simply for who we are. Who the hell cares whether or not they take us seriously? That isn't our most pressing problem, although it is a problem. They need to see us as human beings - or that at least we exist in some form other than highly murderable drug addicts and prostitutes.

I care.

You say that it isn't our most pressing problem. Yet you also say that we are frequently assaulted and murdered for who we are. I, personally, can not think of a more pressing problem than that. I don't want to be assaulted or murdered for who I am. If we are taken seriously, what do you think - that we are more likely to be assaulted/murdered or less likely to be assaulted/murdered? More likely to be seen as human beings or less likely to be seen as human beings?

There is simply no way to know.

Not knowing something is usually what causes me to wonder about something. Hence why I wonder whether Caitlyn has ever ventured here or not.

[PaulaQ]

You say that it isn't our most pressing problem. Yet you also say that we are frequently assaulted and murdered for who we are.

Oh, being not considered as human beings the same as others is our most pressing problem, there is no doubt of this and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

It's just that we are already at the bottom of the societal hierarchy. I don't see how Jenner's reality show background affects this negatively - we're already at rock bottom, so there's no where to go but up.

The reason I think Jenner has been helpful is because as sincere and amazing as some of the trans people who've come out and gained some notoriety are, none of them remotely have the ability to gather attention like Jenner has. People are talking about us in ways that wouldn't have happened for a very, very long time. More importantly, this is creating opportunities for many of us to speak to a public that would otherwise ignore us. I've been on the TV news once, and in the paper several times now. There are hundreds of others us who people want to hear from. And I can assure you, prior to Jenner, that wasn't the case. Not on this scale.

I'm sorry to disagree with you. I'm not trying to be argumentative and I understand how you feel. Your concerns are valid.

[jenni_xx]

Oh, being not considered as human beings the same as others is our most pressing problem, there is no doubt of this and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

I did misunderstand, so thank you for clearing that up.

It's just that we are already at the bottom of the societal hierarchy.

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do. We're a mere snigger (either behind our backs or to our faces) in the street to most people in comparison.

Now, I'm not for one moment suggesting that the negative reaction some people have towards Caitlyn is going to result in us being ranked lower down than such abhorrent individuals, and so I do completely agree that any negative reaction towards Caitlyn isn't going to result in us being regarded any lower than we already are. My point was more that Caitlyn's exposure in the media isn't, for many people (at least here in the UK) resulting in us being regarded in a better light. I want to make it clear that I don't blame Caitlyn (the indvidual person that she is) for how other people react - I'm merely trying to put across that the exposure we are getting through Caitlyn isn't necessarily doing us any favours either.

You say that Caitlyn has been helpful because of the ability she is able to garner. I would say that this is a fine line - as I said in my first post in this thread, people here in the UK are sick of hearing about it, and are stating that they regard the whole Jenner/Kardiashian clan as a media farce, and Caitlyn, and her situation is being regarded as nothing more than an extension of that. Bruce Jenner may have been an Olympian athlete, but today he is known more for being the father and step-father of a reality-tv-obsessed-family. Had he been known (and as famous) only as the former, as opposed to the latter, then it could have been a whole different ball-game in garnering more respect for us.

Of course the media now wants to hear from us - but I am rather cynical in that respect. We're being listened to, not because of what we have to say, but through our "association" with Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. The media don't want an insight into our minds. They want an insight into Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner's mind. We've become topical because of an individual who is associated to a family that garner column inches. It will be forgotten about by the media soon enough, and in the meantime, people's opinion despite all this media attention will not change.

[PaulaQ]

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do. We're a mere snigger (either behind our backs or to our faces) in the street to most people in comparison.

We don't hurt anyone. And yet the state where I live attempted to pass four different laws that would have imprisoned me for using a public restroom - effectively barring me from using public spaces at all.

[jenni_xx]

We don't hurt anyone. And yet the state where I live attempted to pass four different laws that would have imprisoned me for using a public restroom - effectively barring me from using public spaces at all.

That's a different discussion entirely.

By the way, we do hurt people. Just not in the physical sense. But again, that is an entirely different discussion.

[sometimes_miss]

You're wrong, and it is disturbing that there are some in our community that still believe that only a void between her legs defines a woman.

I believe that it comes from being raised as a boy, and believing that our penis is the center of everything. Its what we are told defines us as better than girls; we have something, they have nothing. Later in life, that concept of a penis being superior to a vulva is constantly reinforced by the rest of the males, in fact lots of females as well, whenever the term pu$$y or sissy is used to insult a boy. It never stops. Grown males continue to believe so strongly that their penis is the center of all female pleasure, despite the fact that over 2/3 of women cannot reach orgasm through vaginal stimulation alone. None of it matters in the penis central world of men. Even guys with small penises insist that they can make any woman come by intercourse. The desperate cling to ignorance out there is astounding. I think here, though, it's a reaction to how the world MIGHT perceive us. Homophobia is very deeply seated in us from childhood on. It's hard to get rid of it entirely, because of the effects it has on our life. We dress up in female clothing, even if we're heterosexual. That alone will make it almost impossible to find a female mate. When you add to that, the possibility that we are in denial about being gay which is suggested by so much of the world, it pretty much eliminates any chance that any woman would be attracted to us. So we insist loudly that we still have nice penises which get nice and hard and can sustain intercourse for great periods of time, all in the effort to convince even one woman that we are still straight. We're in a difficult situation; gay by association.

Keyword: ATTENTION. Is it good or bad though? How much of it is real?

I have to wonder though, I think she knew what she was doing. After all, she could have stayed in the background and avoided as much publicity as she could, and let the younger women of the family remain up front in the spotlight. During the interview, I got the impression that she knew what could happen, and decided that she'd 'let it all hang out' and let the world know exactly what a transsexual was, was not, and what we could be. It definitely started lots of conversations. I did find myself educating a lot of people at work about all the differences, whether they thought I was TS or not no one suggested.

I support Caitlyn because she's gotten the discussion started in so many areas where no one would ever think to mention it. Her decision to stay in the media spotlight will keep the topic current for quite a while. All we can do is hope more people will come to accept gender variations as normal, and accept us for who we really are, not what they used to think we are.

Next up,

It's just that we are already at the bottom of the societal hierarchy.

and then,

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do. We're a mere snigger (either behind our backs or to our faces) in the street to most people in comparison.

You forget. In lots of people's minds, they think that because we're sexual deviates (their opinion, not mine), we are likely to be pedophiles, and many women think that we dress up as women because we want to get into women's rest rooms to rape them. Absurd, from our point of view, yes. But that's how a lot of people think, perfectly exemplefied by:

We don't hurt anyone. And yet the state where I live attempted to pass four different laws that would have imprisoned me for using a public restroom - effectively barring me from using public spaces at all.

and

I really do think we're lower than that here in Texas. After all, there is no law that prevents pedophiles and rapists from using public restrooms, but they sure as hell tried to pass four different laws this year that would've made it illegal for me to use a public restroom, because it's assumed that I'm a rapist and / or a pedophile.

then

By the way, we do hurt people. Just not in the physical sense. But again, that is an entirely different discussion.

WE don't hurt them. They CHOOSE to feel hurt because they don't like what we do WITH OURSELVES.
There is a difference.

[flatlander_48]

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do.

Unfortunately, it doesn't make a lot of difference. Usually we transgender people (in the broad sense of the term) are much more identifiable. You would be hard pressed to tell a pedophile or rapist just by looking at them. No so with us. We are much easier targets.

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

Now I say "Awesome...we are above pedophiles and rapists" Thank you for putting us in a category compared to criminals.

I feel sorry if the people over the pond take Caitlyn less seriously because she is in a reality show family.

Being related to someone doesn't make you like them.

[lynda]

hi girls, I think steve tyler has done more good for crossdressers then Caitlyn, the guy mixes bracets , womens cloths sashays and the still is admired by both women and streath men , as a guitar player and crossdresser , him and jimi and david bowie were my brake thru to who I am and many other males from my generation and showed us it was all right to mix it up. hugs lynda