Discussion regarding Caitlyn Jenner

[PaulaQ]

More so, you seem to be offended that it is a part-time CD who has said this to you. You are pulling rank in the transgendered community by saying your problems and experiences are worse than mine.

No, I'm not.

My entire point has been that we share many common problems, and that someone who discriminates against us doesn't care about whether we are CD or TS.

What bothered me is that I get the impression that you and some other CDs don't really understand the privilege you have in being able to pass for cisgender - i.e. go out in drab.

Please don't misunderstand me. I have great sympathy for the misery many CDs express while leading a double life. That is not a privilege. A life lived in the closet, hiding from loved ones and friends is terrible. I know - I did it for 50 years.

However, I presume you can pick and choose your battles, avoiding situations such as:
- Your job
- Courtroom appearances
- Routine traffic stops (unless you are out en femme a lot)
- Many other public settings other than carefully chosen outings
- explaining to family why you wear a dress

The ability to avoid these situations by appearing cis means you don't really have to experience what those of us who transition have experienced. Your ability to be dismissive of our problems because you don't experience them yourself is the essence of privilege.

Now perhaps I've misjudged you or txcrossdress. Perhaps you are like Isha, and out everywhere a lot. I doubt this, because Isha experiences some of the same issues I'm discussing, transphobic prejudice, and reports them. I've not seen similar things from either of you, but if I have misunderstood or mischaracterized your situation, then I sincerely apologize.

I'll also allow that where you live may be a LOT different than where I live. Texas is a hell-hole for trans people.

But I very definitely object to the dismissive seeming comments. I lost every close friend I had when I came out as trans. Friends I'd had for thirty years. I'm lucky, because I kept my job (so far) and my immediate family. I lost my marriage of 18 years. I told you other really horrible stories that either happened to me, or that I got firsthand from a friend to whom they happened.

And yet y'all really want to quibble over whether those of us who transition are viewed better or worse than sex offenders? Who cares? (And again, I'd point out that a lot of the dialog about trans women in the U.S. directly comparesus to sex offenders. That is what we are in the opinion of a great many people in America.) My point is that what I see in our community (I lead one of the largest trans outreach groups in my state) are often dire cases of discrimination and socially ostracized trans people. We are not treated kindly, in general.

One of the biggest problems I see in the community I deal with are people who have NO ONE in their lives. No friends. No family. No friendly coworkers. No one. I certainly hope your life isn't like that, but if it isn't, I think you'd have to allow that you probably don't really know what living that way, month in, month out, would be like.

I have no idea what social pressures are faced by pedophiles or sex offenders. My point is that what many of us experience is terrible, and unlike them, we've committed no crime! I think this is a significant point. We are ostracized, but we aren't hurting anyone!

I'm very sorry you thought I was pulling rank. There is no rank. I have direct experiences I suspect you don't have both personally, and because of the organization I lead. I felt offended because you seemed to be offering opinions on matters that you have the opportunity to avoid. There has been a lot of that going on here in the CD forum lately.

If I have misjudged or mischaracterized your situation, please set me straight and I'll apologize.

I hope that I've given you my perspective on why I don't think public opinion of trans people in my country could be much worse than it is. I've seen direct improvements here because of Jenner's story.

[jenni_xx]

My entire point has been that we share many common problems, and that someone who discriminates against us doesn't care about whether we are CD or TS.

I completely agree.

What bothered me is that I get the impression that you and some other CDs don't really understand the privilege you have in being able to pass for cisgender - i.e. go out in drab.

I am not privileged because I am able to present myself, and be happy with myself, while dressed in attire that society deems appropriate for my birth gender. I presume men don't feel privileged whenever they wear a pair of jeans and a t-shirt, nor do I presume that women feel privileged when they wear a dress. Such a thought process most probably doesn't even enter their consciousness. Is it a privilege to wear a certain item of clothing, or to present oneself in a certain way? I would say that a better way of phrasing your point here would be to not to talk about "understanding a privilege", but rather to talk about NOT understanding the difficulty that people such as yourself face in just wanting to be accepted for who you actually are. privilege is the wrong word in my opinion. I can relate to that, but only to a small degree - a degree that is more understanding and empathetic than non-transgendered people, but is nonetheless a degree that is a lot smaller than what you have had to go through.

Please don't misunderstand me. I have great sympathy for the misery many CDs express while leading a double life. That is not a privilege. A life lived in the closet, hiding from loved ones and friends is terrible. I know - I did it for 50 years.

Before I come out as gay, I had girlfriends. I told all of them. Some were accepting. Others it become a primary factor in the relationship ending. After coming out as gay, I met a man who I entered into a civil partnership. I told him the first time I met him that I am CD. He accepted it. The relationship ended last year when our civil partnership was dissolved. He walked out on me, and to this day I don't know why. I am now dating a man who I told, but who doesn't accept it. My reaction to that has been to accept that he doesn't accept it. That is something for me to deal with. When I come out as gay, I lost friends, and lost the respect of several family members. Yet I found it easier to come out to these people than I ever did to come out as a crossdresser. To the point that everyone knows that I'm gay, but not everyone knows I crossdress. That is just my personal experience, but it is one that I feel enables me to emphasise with people who struggle for acceptance from others. That is, I believe, something that is common to us all, irrespective of where we fall on the "transgender spectrum". My point, in simply terms, while I haven't experienced what you have, I can and do understand and emphasise with you. That is why I would never be dismissive or belittle anything that you have gone through. When I'm met with replies on this forum that criticise me, in my opinion, unfairly, it hurts. The replies I've had to my comments on this thread have upset me. And frustrated me, because I feel that people have misconstrued my intent on this thread.

However, I presume you can pick and choose your battles, avoiding situations such as:
- Your job
- Courtroom appearances
- Routine traffic stops (unless you are out en femme a lot)
- Many other public settings other than carefully chosen outings
- explaining to family why you wear a dress

Externally, yes I can pick and choose. But internally I am not ever able to pick and choose my battles. I live my battles every single day. As have you. You've taken a very brave and positive step towards being the person who you actually are, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for you for that. My battles are my own, and I deal with them the best I can. My point is, empathy can only ever go so far. What is more important to me is that I am happy. Just as what is more important to you than my happiness is your own happiness.

The ability to avoid these situations by appearing cis means you don't really have to experience what those of us who transition have experienced. Your ability to be dismissive of our problems because you don't experience them yourself is the essence of privilege.

Only externally. Internally, I am able to avoid no situations. Just because I am wearing a suit one day, doesn't mean that on that day I am not transgendered. I am, and have been transgendered every single day of my life. Of course, people react to me as though I'm not transgendered when I wear a suit, and thus on such occasions I don't challenge their own perceptions of what are regarded to be societal norms, but internally the battle still rages on for me. Irrespective of what I wear. There is no such thing as a part-time CD. A person is either a CD or not.

Now perhaps I've misjudged you or txcrossdress. Perhaps you are like Isha, and out everywhere a lot. I doubt this, because Isha experiences some of the same issues I'm discussing, transphobic prejudice, and reports them. I've not seen similar things from either of you, but if I have misunderstood or mischaracterized your situation, then I sincerely apologize.

I'm not like Isha. Isha is a person who I have the utmost respect for, and Isha has gone to lengths with her crossdressing that I know I will never attain at any point in my life. I simply do not have the courage to do what Isha has done. I wish I did have that courage. That I do not will be something that I regret to my dying day.

I'll also allow that where you live may be a LOT different than where I live. Texas is a hell-hole for trans people.

I can't say for certain that it is different, because I haven't experienced both where I live and where you live. My first post in this thread was simply to state how people where I live have reacted to Caitlyn, and it's because of this reaction (from people where I live) that has made me feel that Caitlyn's exposure isn't having the positive reaction that I hoped it would have. It may be different in other parts of the world, but I can't, nor ever will, speak for these other parts of the world. Simpy because I can not do so.

But I very definitely object to the dismissive seeming comments. I lost every close friend I had when I came out as trans. Friends I'd had for thirty years. I'm lucky, because I kept my job (so far) and my immediate family. I lost my marriage of 18 years. I told you other really horrible stories that either happened to me, or that I got firsthand from a friend to whom they happened.

You said it yourself - the dismissive SEEMING comments. They are not dismissive, even if they seem that way to you.

And yet y'all really want to quibble over whether those of us who transition are viewed better or worse than sex offenders? Who cares? My point is that what I see in our community (I lead one of the largest trans outreach groups in my state) are often dire cases of discrimination and socially ostracized trans people. We are not treated kindly, in general.

I didn't want to quibble about that. I just disagreed with your comments. The quibbles after that resulted from people taking objection to my disagreement of your comment. Lorileah set the ball rolling in that respect, with her own abrupt, flippant and unnecessary comment that I had put us "in a category compared to criminals". I hadn't. I had actually distinguished us from such a category.

One of the biggest problems I see in the community I deal with are people who have NO ONE in their lives. No friends. No family. No friendly coworkers. No one. I certainly hope your life isn't like that, but if it isn't, I think you'd have to allow that you probably don't really know what living that way, month in, month out, would be like.

I do have people in my life, so I can't relate to those people who don't. So no, I don't know what living that way is like. Nor would I want to. I am thankful for that.

I have no idea what social pressures are faced by pedophiles or sex offenders. My point is that what many of us experience is terrible, and unlike them, we've committed no crime! I think this is a significant point. We are ostracized, but we aren't hurting anyone!

I agree, we haven't committed a crime. You're right, it is a significant point. We are ostracised. And for no good reason.

I'm very sorry you thought I was pulling rank. There is no rank. I have direct experiences I suspect you don't have both personally, and because of the organization I lead. I felt offended because you seemed to be offering opinions on matters that you have the opportunity to avoid. There has been a lot of that going on here in the CD forum lately.

You did pull rank. You said that you were offended that a part-time CD would "lecture you" about how easy it is to be transgender, when no one, certainly not me, never ever intended to state that we have it easy. Nonetheless, your post that I've replied to extensively here and your previous post had an underlying message that I, a part time CD, do not have it as bad as you, and that I, as a part time CD can not possibly have experienced the extents that you have experienced. In my last post, I agreed with this. I would be foolish and misguided not to. This all come about because I had the audacity to name some groups who society regards as lower than us. Your response in light of that was to cement your view. No one on this thread has questioned you for this. Plenty of people have questioned my comment however, despite them, when push comes to shove, actually agreeing with me.

If I have misjudged or mischaracterized your situation, please set me straight and I'll apologize.

See my comment earlier in my post about the conflict that we all face in terms of our external presentation and internal thought process.

I hope that I've given you my perspective on why I don't think public opinion of trans people in my country could be much worse than it is.

You have. And I appreciate it.

I've seen direct improvements here because of Jenner's story.

I, personally, have yet to see any.

[Katey888]

I think we've had enough semantics ping-pong to satisfy a Chinese politburo after-hours entertainment show...

A lot of this all sounds like violent agreement if we step back a little and take deep, calming breaths...



Now isn't that better..?

Back to the OP please, and in a friendly way, or this thread will be done...



Katey
Moderator

[JayeLefaye]

What Katey said:-)

I had to take a deep breath before even opening this thread. After seeing what Katey said, I decided to simply keep on with my deep breaths and not even read what has gone on here.

And yeap, I do feel better with my breathing.

I didn't mean to reactivate this thread, and I haven't read anything except Katey's post, but I suspect that there is a lot of good information involved and look forward to catching up on the "useful" parts.

The bottom line for me, is that we finally have a "celebrity" who has opened a lot of doors for discussion, and for that, we should all be thankful. Personally, I wish the "celebrity" had been Vladimir Putin or George Clooney, but hey, we have what we have, and this is a very good time to focus on the "positive", in a "lemons to lemonade" kind of way.

Jaye

P.S...I'm thinking about changing my signature line to:

Just because I dress like a girl, doesn't give me permission to act like a b..tch:-)

[JessicaJHall]

Well one thing is for sure, this certainly has our forum all abuzz!

[TrishaLake]

I had no intention to offend especially Paula but the pedofile thing got me...hit home they say! I do take a stand n things and not on others....that said good conversation overall.

[MonctonGirl]

I wonder if I'm outing myself on my 'male' FB page....

My wife didn't want me to continue further with the discussion.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
Hamlet - William Shakespeare

Additionally, I pointed out that at least Jenner's children are supportive, apparently, since they have yet to voice any displeasure at Caitlyn's transition.

That may be a stretch. Declining commentary about the matter is not the same thing as being supportive.
Rather, it would be a fatal PR move to speak out against it - and of course, they can't do anything to stop it anyway - so, why?
It is for sure they have had a difficult time "dealing with it". (Not the same as "accepting" it - which would indicate true acceptance.
Their silence may more be a matter of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".

[Greenie]

To your claim that as a CD you dont fit under the LGBT umbrella, I have to disagree. The one thing that unites all of these individuals is that they behave in a way that is atypical for a person of their biological sex be it who they sleep with or how they choose to appear, and are discriminated against by many for trying to be themselves. You proudly assert "I put on women's clothes, I do women's makeup, I full body shave, I LOVE shopping, I take on women's mannerisms when I am dressed " These are not the behaviors of your typical man. Apparantly you missed the huge argument we had here over the last month regarding terminology, but there is a growing consensus, especially by the psychological community, that the term Transgender should be used to describe anyone who gender identity or form of gender expression does not match one's assigned sex. Now you may not wish to accept such a definition, but to a lot of folks you are TG just not TS.

I haven't posted in a while, But I have been reading this thread, and this got me.

ITS A BASIC HUMAN RIGHT, that each person has in this world is to IDENTIFY THEMSELVES.

You cannot push your labels onto Joanne. If joanne wants to identify in a way that doesn't make sense to you, you have no right to disagree. Its Joanne's right to Identify as Joanne sees fit. Putting another person into a box, only does so for your own comfort.

I never thought I would see the day someone who identifies as LGBT umbrella would use "the growing consensus and psychological community", to force a label onto someone who doesn't want it. That is absurd.

[flatlander_48]

No, what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

Right now, there is a lot of B/S swirling about Bathroom Bills. As a group, we need to kill this stuff right now. And before those among us would say that it doesn't effect me, this hysteria that is going around is what led to this situation in Detroit.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/06/...d-in-restroom/

The thing is, how would we feel if this person was a wife, sister, mother or daughter to one of us? This crap has got to STOP; NOW.

And yes, I have every right to disagree and point out things that serve No One.

[JoanAz]

KRISTIN BECK
Long listen but well worth it
Navy Seal transgender person
warrior princess navy seal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-PT2cZr4aA

[ReineD]

No, what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

I think it makes a difference to the health care community and health insurance. There needs to be a distinction between individuals who want surgery for cosmetic reasons (i.e. they want boobs with no other surgery and they do not experience significant distress and impairment over presenting male), vs. those who need the surgery because without it, they would experience significant distress and impairment over being, presenting, and living male ... which is the DSM definition of Gender Dysphoria. So should these two groups of people be identified the same way for the purpose of health insurance?

Also, spouses and partners need to know if their other half identifies as a man, woman, sometimes one and sometimes another, both, or neither. I agree that to the general populace, anyone who is not cis fits under the transgender umbrella (see my note below), but you do need more precise definitions when communicating to healthcare professionals, spouses/partners, and even among ourselves if you want others to gain an appreciation of who you are, exactly.

-----------------------------

Note about being classified under the "Transgender" Umbrella:

When my SO dresses and goes out, people don't stop to ask if my SO is a CDer, TG, TS, Drag Queen, Androgynous, or whether my SO has had her penis removed, or whether my SO lives like this all the time. lol. It is likely they classify my SO a number of different ways based on their personal knowledge, which likely is limited to what they read in the news. Since the media insists of calling transitioning TSs "Transgender" and transitioning TSs are more in the news than CDers, it is likely the people we run across believe my SO to have transitioned, like Jenner, which means they likely see her as they see Jenner: someone who used to be a male and who now lives as a female, vs. someone who was born female. Also, my SO is not about to hang a sign around her necks proclaiming to strangers that she is attracted to women and lives as a male most of the time, and so really, anyone who is in my SO's shoes just needs to allow strangers to come to the conclusions they will come to which is, the person they are looking at is "transgender", whatever their definition of that term is.

That said, if a CDer who identifies as a straight male is out to friends and family, he is perfectly free to tell these people he is not TG like Jenner, he does not plan on living full time and he is not asexual like Jenner (I heard her say this in a video), nor is he male-attracted, etc. Anyone can control the message they give about their identity to the people they know. It may take 10 words instead of one, but it's doable.

Likewise, a person who identifies as gender-fluid and who does not intend on fully transitioning is perfectly free to communicate this to family and friends, and to correct their impression of what "Transgender" means if these family and friends take it that it means eventual legal and physical transition and living full time.

[JayeLefaye]

...what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

This!!!!

I am a simple dudette, but years ago, someone explained to me about fulcum points, and this, right now, with Caitlyn, methinks is one of them.

Copy and pasting here:

The definition of a fulcrum is a pivot point around which a lever turns, or something that plays a central role in or is in the center of a situation or activity. A pivot point around which a lever turns is an example of a fulcrum.

There have been untold many others who paid higher prices than Caitlyn, but that's not her fault!!! But she has now brought everything into more mainstream conversations than anything else that I've been aware of in my Journey.

I avoided this thread on purpose, and so, came in to it la te. But will try to leave it now, by quoting 48 again, and trusting that her words of wisdom will touch more than my heart.: At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

There are a ton of other concerns that we should all be working toward, but we can't begin to work towards them unless we stop nit-picking among ourselves over definitions.

I know that they are important, but the old cartoon Pogo keeps coming to mind: "We've met the enemy, and he is us"...Or something like that.

Jaye

[ReineD]

The definition of a fulcrum is a pivot point around which a lever turns, or something that plays a central role in or is in the center of a situation or activity.

I just want to say that as a member of this community, it is understandable that you hope Caitlyn Jenner's will have a fundamental role in helping the cis-world to gain an understanding of transitioners or even people who are not transitioning but who are gender-fluid. I'm guessing there is a great deal more discussion and speculation about Caitlyn in forums such as this one, than there is in non-trans related forums.

But, I think that to most people Caitlyn is far away, meaning they are aware there is a famous person who is transitioning, but I don't think they will be able to translate this to a deeper understanding, for example should their husbands, sons, or perhaps employees should follow Jenner's path.

[flatlander_48]

I think it makes a difference to the health care community and health insurance. There needs to be a distinction between individuals who want surgery for cosmetic reasons (i.e. they want boobs with no other surgery and they do not experience significant distress and impairment over presenting male), vs. those who need the surgery because without it, they would experience significant distress and impairment over being, presenting, and living male ... which is the DSM definition of Gender Dysphoria. So should these two groups of people be identified the same way for the purpose of health insurance?

Also, spouses and partners need to know if their other half identifies as a man, woman, sometimes one and sometimes another, both, or neither. I agree that to the general populace, anyone who is not cis fits under the transgender umbrella (see my note below), but you do need more precise definitions when communicating to healthcare professionals, spouses/partners, and even among ourselves if you want others to gain an appreciation of who you are, exactly.

The point is that NONE of this has anything to do with discussions HERE. What you're talking about is between a person and the medical professionals they are dealing with or between a person and their family. But, those discussions are not taking place HERE and they don't take place in public.

Since the media insists of calling transitioning TSs "Transgender" and transitioning TSs are more in the news than CDers, it is likely the people we run across believe my SO to have transitioned, like Jenner, which means they likely see her as they see Jenner: someone who used to be a male and who now lives as a female, vs. someone who was born female.

Yes, and my point it this largely exists because we lost the high ground. Instead of a straightforward and clear message, we have fractious and overly complicated B/S. We keep making this hard for ourselves for no good reason. And the problem is that once it is in the public domain, it is very hard to contradict.

DeeAnn

[ReluctantDebutant]

No, what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

Well what is also absurd is the assertion that those who not feel that the label of transgender describes them are now unable to feel or show compassion for those that do feel comfortable under the TG label.

I am a man. I can still feel outrage towards injustices against women. I am straight. I can still believe that homosexuals should be treated equitably. I am of one race. I can still desire liberty for all races minority or majority. Just because some one doesn't want to identify with any TG label doesn't mean that they cannot care for the various TG causes. Besides if you just rely on those that identify as TG you would never have any politically significant numbers.

Yes, and my point it this largely exists because we lost the high ground. Instead of a straightforward and clear message, we have fractious and overly complicated B/S. We keep making this hard for ourselves for no good reason. And the problem is that once it is in the public domain, it is very hard to contradict.

Telling people that transgender are everyone from Caitlyn Jenner to you average underdresser isn't going to clear up the confusion. Separating and clearly defining the differences between a TS, CD and the various groups will do more to clarify the public misunderstandings. But If we separate ourselves we lose that one clear voice. And if they only here one TG voice they think all TG are the same. I am sure a TS doesn't want me speaking as a TG to legislators that I don't need to use the a woman's restroom. I rather speak as just a human citizen and say denying a TS the use of the correct facility is unjust.

[sometimes_miss]

Bruce Jenner's transition to Caitlyn is threatening to a lot of men for many reasons.

No, I think it all comes down to the same reason our wives and girlfriends are so upset with us when they find out.
THEY FEEL THAT HE DECEIVED THEM, THAT THEY WERE FOOLED.
And nobody wants to be a fool. It makes them angry. And they turn that anger around towards the person that they feel betrayed them. They you add to the fact of why they are upset that he 'turned out to actually be a woman', and you have fury.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

You cannot push your labels onto Joanne. If joanne wants to identify in a way that doesn't make sense to you, you have no right to disagree. Its Joanne's right to Identify as Joanne sees fit. Putting another person into a box, only does so for your own comfort.

I never thought I would see the day someone who identifies as LGBT umbrella would use "the growing consensus and psychological community", to force a label onto someone who doesn't want it. That is absurd.

I was not pushing my label on Joanne. I was trying to point out that there is a good reason for her to see herself as falling under the T portion of LGBT.I specifically said she could not accept that definition. That is not pushing.This forum exists to exchange ideas, so it is my right to disagree with someone just as you are exercising your right to disagree with me.

As far as my reference to the psychological community, I think that is an important consideration because it is that community that influences lawmakes and judges. It was the erronius conclusions of psychologists in the past that led to the forced incarceration or hospitalization of anyone who identifed as LGBT. Now that psychology is getting it right we have been able to get the rights and privileges we now enjoy or can soon hope to enjoy.

[Greenie]

No, what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

Someones Gender and their expression of it, is for themselves. So its up to them what they decide to identify as. I don't think most people struggling with gender take the time to think about how they fit into the political machine. Not everyone goes into this with the idea of becoming an activist. Sometimes its just for survival. There are factions to separate people, because people create those factions for themselves. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone fits neatly into a mold, and not everyone who isn't cis-gender feels comfortable with the idea of being under the transgender umbrella. Some people just need to find something to make themselves feel safe. Thats why there are so many definitions. Whether someone is by definition a "tg" or not in a psychological context, I still purely believe that is for no one else to decide but the person themselves. Everyone else's opinions don't matter. Its each persons own right to decide to call themselves what they feel comfortable.

You all are putting others in boxes. Which is so sad to see. We should all be in the position here to love one another and the differences we all bring. How can a group of ostracized individuals feel comfortable taking people and trying to talk them into boxes they don't feel comfortable in. I will re affirm that I believe this is very absurd. Which is one of the reasons I haven't been around as much. I would hope to experience a board that is a lot more open. But instead this place feels like a place where people talk about cross dressing in regards to whether or people are "trans enough".

[PaulaQ]

Someones Gender and their expression of it, is for themselves. So its up to them what they decide to identify as. I don't think most people struggling with gender take the time to think about how they fit into the political machine. Not everyone goes into this with the idea of becoming an activist. Sometimes its just for survival.

I don't believe anyone here is constraining anyone's self definition of their gender or expression. The term "transgender" is extremely broad, covering everything from stone butches, to crossdressers, to gender queer, to trans persons.

In the end, I'd hope people could see the benefits of grouping with people who have some common problems, even if not all of the problems, nor anything else about them is precisely the same. That has been my argument and my point the entire time.

I didn't transition to become an activist. I became an activist because a gang of men attacked my friend, and the police could do nothing to protect her. Sometimes the fight comes to us, and since that is happening now, it just makes sense to me to band with others. I try to look beyond my own narrow interests, and include those who seem to have similar interests.

I'm not trying to force anyone to do this - I have no power to do that. But my hope is that people will help according to their talents and opportunities.

[ReineD]

The point is that NONE of this has anything to do with discussions HERE. What you're talking about is between a person and the medical professionals they are dealing with or between a person and their family. But, those discussions are not taking place HERE and they don't take place in public.

Well, it's between community members and the medical profession AND the people that members are married to and the others they have come out to, AND their friends in this forum. A wide variety of people simply cannot all use the same word to identify themselves, when each person attaches a different meaning to it. It's just all too confusing for the masses who hear the term. Granted, to the public everyone who crosses culturally defined categories of gender is "transgender", no matter how they identify and I don't think this is about to change. Most people do not intimately know others who cross gender norms and I honestly think the only way that non-community members will gain an appreciation of all the nuances in this community is to actually have personal experiences with the people who are in it. Unfortunately, the percentage of people who cross gender norms is small ... maybe that's why they make such a splash in the news.

But in here, I think it best for people to be a bit more precise than "transgender" if they want others to know who they are and what they want, and instead of everyone saying that the same term defines their own particular brand of gender expression, they should give that up and say what they do, how they feel, how they present and how often. And if they are out to family and friends, they can explain what they do and how they wish to live to them as well.

Yes, and my point it this largely exists because we lost the high ground. Instead of a straightforward and clear message, we have fractious and overly complicated B/S. We keep making this hard for ourselves for no good reason. And the problem is that once it is in the public domain, it is very hard to contradict.

What does this mean, and what is your solution. The conversation in here is going all over the place with pedophiles, criminals and what not.

[Julogden]

My hypothesis regarding high levels of intolerance from some straight males is that they react the strongest towards transgendered women who they perceive (at least subconsciously) as being attractive women after transition, and I'd include Caitlyn in this category. They're freaking out because they're feeling sexual attraction at some level for someone that they still perceive as being a man, and in Caitlyn's case, a very masculine man who was a role model of masculinity for millions of people.

[flatlander_48]

Granted, to the public everyone who crosses culturally defined categories of gender is "transgender", no matter how they identify and I don't think this is about to change.

This is precisely what I've been saying all along. It is the exact definition of the word. There is no adjustment due to frequency, privacy, motivations, if it is one way or if it is back and forth. Yet, people want to try to redefine the word. Silly...

What does this mean, and what is your solution. The conversation in here is going all over the place with pedophiles, criminals and what not.

This is very simple. As a community, we should quit trying to insert 37 different categories between crossdresser and transsexual. All that does is confuse everyone, serves no one and is a complete waste of time and effort. Yet, people continually try to do this because they don't want to be included with "those" people. B/S...

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

As a community, we should quit trying to insert 37 different categories between crossdresser and transsexual. All that does is confuse everyone, serves no one and is a complete waste of time and effort. Yet, people continually try to do this because they don't want to be included with "those" people. B/S...

Well, there are two different scenarios here and each should be handled differently:

1. The people you don't know: the people who serve you in restaurants and in stores and the millions of people that you don't run across but who are exposed to TV shows or articles about people who transition.

For the most part, these people are not interested in nuances, they don't really care what your motives are or how you live your life, and they do lump everyone together under "transgender". But, if they become interested, for example if they find out that someone in their lives experiences a desire to cross the culturally defined gender norms, then they are perfectly free to look up information online or read research articles in libraries that WILL explain the various motives and levels of crossing the gender norms.

2. The people you are connected to intimately: health care professionals, friends and family, your acquaintances that you are out to and may wish to explain things to, some of your coworkers, your friends in this forum and in support groups.

These people do want to know where exactly you fit within the spectrum. And depending on the depth of their connection to you, these are some of the questions they will want answered: Do you want to transition? Do you want to live full time? How often do you want to dress and do you want to go out? Do you want to come out to everyone you know or is going out to the next town over sufficient? How do you identify? Are you same-sex or opposite-sex attracted? Etc. So a "shorthand" for some of these answers, provided everyone has the same definitions of the words, might be, "transitioning TS", "non-transitioning TS", "part-time CDer", "full-time CDer", but even then these labels do not answer everything and more words are needed to answer all the questions these people are asking.

[flatlander_48]

And that's basically how I have treated it in my conversations. When I came out to my affinity group at work recently, I just stated that I identify as transgender and I dress. In some 1/1 discussions with a few members earlier, I stated that plus pointed out that I don't do drag and I'm not looking to transition. They already knew that I also identify as bisexual and actually I reiterated that as the entre to the coming out discussion. Those 5 pieces of information basically tell the whole story. That I do go out dressed a few times a month or often, neck down, at home or underdress nearly 100% of the time is irrelevant to those 5 pieces of information. Yet, people want to include that peripheral information in their spin on the definitions. That's where it doesn't make sense.

Anyway, information is meted out as needed, but it should stop short of creating confusion. Unfortunately, as a community, we don't seem to realize this.

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

These people do want to know where exactly you fit within the spectrum. And depending on the depth of their connection to you, these are some of the questions they will want answered: Do you want to transition? Do you want to live full time? How often do you want to dress and do you want to go out? Do you want to come out to everyone you know or is going out to the next town over sufficient? How do you identify? Are you same-sex or opposite-sex attracted? Etc. So a "shorthand" for some of these answers, provided everyone has the same definitions of the words, might be, "transitioning TS", "non-transitioning TS", "part-time CDer", "full-time CDer", but even then these labels do not answer everything and more words are needed to answer all the questions these people are asking.

No, the correct answer for most of the people you listed is "it's none of your business." Your wife, or partner, deserve all the answers you have, with the exception of the forward looking ones. No one knows the future with certainty. A medical doctor, the medical related questions. Everyone else? It really isn't their concern.

This is my primary problem with the way trans people are treated - we aren't accorded basic human dignity. When I tell people I'm trans, I am asked questions they'd likely never DARE ask another person. Why do they ask me? It's really simple - I'm not a person to them. It's obvious - you can read it in their body language. It is NONE of my friend's or coworkers business who I sleep with, or what we do when we are together. (I get graphic questions about both of those things.) I don't owe anyone prognostications about my future. People have no right to ask me "do you think you'll regret it and switch back?"

I'm asked these things, and objectified as a collection of body parts and medical procedures, because most people simply don't see me as a fellow human being. There are exceptions, but for the most part my experience has been that as soon as I reveal that I'm trans, I cross over from being seen as a woman, to being seen as some sort of a thing - a guy who's done such bizarre things that he's no longer recognizable as a person, but is rather a thing.

People don't need to psychoanalyze me, to figure out which kind of a "thing" I am. They need to treat me as they would any other human being, and take me at my word that I am who I say I am. My motivations for doing whatever it is I've done are none of their business. I might share those things with some people, and not others, at my discretion.

I'm very sorry to see these same attitudes persist here, but they are prevalent in society as a whole, so it shouldn't surprise me.

What people do need to know about someone like me is perhaps that I have lived every day of my life in fear. For the first 50 years, it was fear of discovery, rejection, ostracism, and physical violence should it be discovered who I really was. Now that I am open about who I am, I experience all of those things - rejection and ostracism, and I know that physical violence may await me at any time, simply because of who I am.