What are your thoughts on male privilege?

[Robin414]

I've never even though it existed until somewhat recently but now it's all I think about (when I stop to think about it, yikes, infinite loooooop)😐 It certainly DID exist, women weren't allowed to vote, have a job, or drive a car not 'that' long ago but obviously things have changed significantly. That said though the fact remains female CEOs make significantly less than their male counterparts and I think that still does trickle down. Interesting fact though, the highest paid female CEO in the US is actually TG😃

[Krisi]

Male privilege?

Are you talking about the male privilege where as a child you are expected to excel at sports while females sit and look pretty?
Are you talking about the male privilege where you are expected to ask the female out on a date and pay for everything?
Are you talking about the male privilege where (in my time) you could be drafted and sent to war and return in a box or with body parts missing?

Perhaps you talking about the male privilege where you are expected to be the breadwinner of the family?
Or are you talking about the male privilege where you are forced to pay alimony and child support and have them taken directly out of your paycheck before you even see it but still pay taxes on it?
Are you talking about the male privilege where your ex wife and children remain in the home you are still paying for while you live in a one room efficiency apartment down by the railroad tracks?

Or could it be the male privilege where your lifespan is ten years less than a female?

All in all, the grass is the same degree of green on both sides of the fence. In some ways, the males may have it better, in other ways, the females have it better. In reality, all of us here are "privileged". World wide, the majority of folks are scrounging for food and shelter every day and don't have the time or resources to join and post on Internet forums.

[Ezekiel]

Krisi, all you are talking about is MACHISM, not privilege, thats why I am pointing out the two must be differentiated, even if they are related in some instances. Its a kind of machism that backfires many times on males. Its sexism if you want to call it that way, that puts pressure on people to meet certain stupid criteria.

Thats why I'm stressing that if you want this to change, you should support feminism, and feminism does not mean to step over males, it means equality in every sense. Even if the word "feminism" sounds like stepping over males, it is not used to describe that, it is used to describe a movement of equality.

[Krisi]

You can call it what you want, that doesn't change anything.

[Ezekiel]

You can call it what you want, that doesn't change anything.

You don't get it, do you?

You keep thinking the privilege we are talking about here means males are entitled to do everything, and females not. No... this is not what we are talking about here.

Women experience machism everyday in their lifes, to how they are supossed to look, to what they are being paid, to how they are supossed to behave... and a long very long etcetera.

Men experience machism everyday too, but since they are men, they are taken seriously, respected and being given higher standards on everything just because they are males.

But of course as long as they meet what society demands a man to be. And here is where they experience machism / sexism aswell.

You get the point now? You see why the term male privilege and machism / sexism are related but are not the same? You see why the term "privilege" is misleading here in some points?

[Krisi]

Or is it you who doesn't get it?

Just because you believe something doesn't make your opinion right and other opinions wrong (except in your own mind). As adults, we have to understand that not everyone agrees with us and that's OK.

[Ezekiel]

Or is it you who doesn't get it?

Just because you believe something doesn't make your opinion right and other opinions wrong (except in your own mind). As adults, we have to understand that not everyone agrees with us and that's OK.

I explained something. You didn't get it, in my opinion, so I explained again. So yes, we are both exercising what you just said. Am I wrong?

[Abby Kae]

The existence of male privilege isn't an opinion. It's a fact.

Krisi, you're allowed to not believe in it, just like you're allowed to believe the sun revolves around the earth. Your belief doesn't change anything.

[Greenie]

Male privilege?

Are you talking about the male privilege where as a child you are expected to excel at sports while females sit and look pretty?
Are you talking about the male privilege where you are expected to ask the female out on a date and pay for everything?
Are you talking about the male privilege where (in my time) you could be drafted and sent to war and return in a box or with body parts missing?

You can take the opposite and ask questions about women... The point I think is to look at the bigger picture. Everyone can make an argument against something in culture.

I feel like what you are saying is: We have a black president so racism is over. Is the same to me as Men pay for dates so there is no male privilege.

Some brief examples I can think of to the contrary, that have been notable recently:

Women gamers are threatened that they will be raped and killed daily. Are male gamers?
Women youtubers have people comment on their music videos that they should do kill them selves. That they should be raped and murdered. Are Male youtubers treated the same?
Women have sex with multiple partners they are ****s and *****s, men do the same and they are given fist bumps and high fives.
Men don't get harassed at work or told that they are distracting in the work place to the opposite sex. (Personal example. I was wearing slacks and a turtleneck and high heels.)
Men don't get called things like "Hun, Babe, Sweet cakes, Little lady, Little girl, Etc At work" (Also a personal Experience)

For all your examples of how male privilege doesn't exist, I can come up with hundreds for how it does. I think its time we knowledge that it does. And that female privilege also happens in instances related to child care, child custody battles, etc and that the world is never gong to be perfectly in the middle all the time. For every time you can think of example that women have the upper hand, the same can be done for men.

I do agree that we are socioeconomically privileged to be sitting here on our smart phones and computers arguing about whether or not "privilege exists" and if its more skewed towards males and females.

Each of us brings our own life experience to the table. So that makes it so that our opinions are naturally going to be different. Its meeting in the middle and discussing them in an educated and thought out manner that is what is needed for our society to move forwards.

We all have our own biases. And I think its time we own that. As a female, my major oppression has been sexism. I have viewed it in a different way then you have, naturally. My lens is coated by the sexual harassment I receive daily while walking on the streets of Seattle. The fear that I have when needing to walk from the building to my car when its dark outside. The constant reminder in my head in the voice of my mother to "not get raped." Because being raped is still teh womans fault, instead of the fault of the rapist. When the first question people ask is, what was she wearing? If a man is raped, that question will never be asked.

This is my world and these are my truths. Meanwhile your lens is how you have experienced the world as a Male? (I don't recall if you are CD or TG). And your examples must be rooted in experience. Dating, the war, sports. Etc. (Side note, women actually don't think its a privilege to be able to just "sit there and look pretty", we also want to be accepted for our skills and ability, to excel and be taken seriously, looks and beauty of often something women don't feel "privileged by) I am wondering if there is also an age gap between you and myself. That ideal of women is very much not true anymore for my generation.

Can you acknowledge that my life experience, and those of many women, can lead to a world where many women see males as privilege? Because I can acknowledge that your life experience makes it so that you do not feel like male privilege exists.

Bigger picture, when a collective body (women) feel that they are a marginalized minority, would it not make sense to look at the collective of those women s experiences and say, "You know what, this many people feel this way, whether I agree with the terminology or not, there has got to be something happening here?" If a bunch of people say X, Maybe X might be a possibility to consider"

[ReineD]

Honestly, I wonder if it is mostly males who fantasize about being women, that think they don't have male privilege?

I bet if we asked men who've never had a thought about wearing women's things, looking like a woman, or adopting the weaker of womens' roles, they'd acknowledge the existence of male privilege?

[Marcelle]

Honestly, I wonder if it is mostly males who fantasize about being women, that think they don't have male privilege?

I bet if we asked men who've never had a thought about wearing women's things, looking like a woman, or adopting the weaker of womens' roles, they'd acknowledge the existence of male privilege?

Hi Reine,

I would bet you are wrong. A predominant portion of men (macho/mucho Alpha types) I know would never admit to "male privilege". Oh I am sure they know it exists on some level but in their mind it does not. However, I have also met men who admit it does exist and take steps to help it disappear. But then again I am sure there are many here who also understand what male privilege is just as there are those who will never admit to it . . . we are after all still a representative portion of society with all our biases and judgments.

I think what happens is that some cannot see the big picture and make it more personal . . . "I never got everything handed to me because I am a male and had to work darn hard" . . . on that I can agree. Yes, being born male has provided me with certain advantages which was not afforded to my female counterparts in the military . . . especially the combat arms profession . . . instant tactical credibility because I am a man comes to mind. Does that negate my own hard work in my career? No, however I would be narrow minded to not admit "male privilege" exists. It is not about me or what I have achieved, it is endemic to society and truth be told it needs to be stomped out by both genders.

As a man, just sit back and observe a meeting or interaction in the work place. Yes, there are women who have risen to become "Alpha" and carry that well, just there are plenty of men who shrink to the back of the meeting room. However, statistically, it is still very much an Alpha male world (depending the on occupation). Again, don't misquote me . . . it is not about you. We all can get some rather crappy cards dealt to us in life which may make us think we personally have not benefited from privilege but if you think long an hard . . . it has happened. Does that mean you didn't work hard or suffered your share of indignities, strife or just all around crap? No, but again it is not about you, it is about society in general.

Cheers

Isha

[ReineD]

Hi Reine,

I would bet you are wrong. A predominant portion of men (macho/mucho Alpha types) I know would never admit to "male privilege". Oh I am sure they know it exists on some level but in their mind it does not. However, I have also met men who admit it does exist and take steps to help it disappear. But then again I am sure there are many here who also understand what male privilege is just as there are those who will never admit to it . . . we are after all still a representative portion of society with all our biases and judgments.

This makes sense.


On another tack, and somewhat related, on facebook tonight I was directed to a research site at Harvard that tests for prejudice or bias. There are a few tests that relate to gender. I thought you might be interested in this Isha (and anyone else). They're among the best online tests I've seen. They only take 10 minutes each, the method is objective, and they are careful to explain why the results might be skewed at the end of it. These are not the "fun" tests on popular media with predictable answers that tell people their gender. lol. And you can compare your results to a sizable cohort at the end.

Have a go! The two gender tests relate to whether we associate the Liberal Arts or the Sciences predominately with men or women, and family or career lives with men or women. There are also tests on whether we have a bias for or against a particular religion, various races, sexual orientation, age, weight.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/selectatest.html

[Ezekiel]

I think most of us all grew up in a situation where as children, we were treated as second class citizens, unless of course you were one of the spoiled brats that threw tantrums and your parents gave you whatever you wanted to calm down; that's pretty much a new phenomenon.

You are mixing apples with oranges. But now that you talk about it, imagine the same but being female. Probably worse, more restricted expectations.

I work with all women, who have seniority over me, and as the managers are also women, believe me, being male is of no advantage. So no, I haven't experienced that at all. You live in a bubble. might be way bigger than mine, but it's still a bubble, for what you see is not the universal experience. And just because MINE is different than most, does not mean that there aren't a lot of other situations where women don't have an advantage, either.

First, I don't live in a bubble. No I do not. I am in a situation where I'm constantly seeking for a job, far from my family, living on the verge of poverty being paid less than 950 euros.

I'm not a White middle class US citizen. Sure Caucasian (a word not synonym for White), but Spanish afterall, and I don't qualify for White and I can tell you I notice it everyday in Germany that I am not White, like for example when they always keep asking me to show my bag after paying whenever I go buy food, and I see that it is ONLY me who is always asked this. I guess its enough explanation...

But theres people in worse situation than me, atleast I can pay for my internet.

Second...

Women have always had it harder, they always have been restricted and treated as less than equal, even today, thats why its still an issue. Even if its not in your personal experience, trust me they do have it harder. Its on a planetary scale, worse on some places than others, but still an issue everywhere on Earth.

Its not like I'm saying you, or anyone else here, hadn't had it hard. Its not what I'm saying, its not what anyone else is saying. We are talking about sexism, where women are less respected than men on a comparative scale.

Im not even saying that women don't have the advantage on some very specific things, which is also obvious and they have it that way because they fought hard for it in the past, like when they fought hard for being permited to wear trousers.
But those very scarce things where they actually have an advantage are not really all that noticeable in the everyday life, and of course it does not balance out like some say here using the phrase "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". Its not true in this case.

Patriarchy is still the established order, there is still sexism. Why you deny it?

Its easy for me to see this and I'm male, yes I'm TG, but male, why is it you don't acknowledge that there is still terrible sexism that damages both, males and females, in their everyday life?

Forgot to add... many complain here about the issue that women are permitted wearing trousers, whereas men are not permitted to wear dresses.

Let me ask you this question...

Why do you think women can wear "all" they want (which is not entirely the case, but for simplicity), and men are restricted to some things and are looked down upon if they wear clothes such as skirts, dresses, make up (on most cases) and a long list?

Tell me why? I'll tell you why men can't wear dresses without it being accepted. Men can't do this because of men. Yes... It is men who are not letting men this freedom. Its machism, its sexism, because they think it makes you less of a man, which in their minds is many times less of a person, and less respectable because it is associated that anything that they relate to being "feminine" is inferior.

In the end, thats why I keep saying, this established sexism is bad for both genders.

[gailbridges]

This is a fascinating topic. (I will apologize up front here for not including all the various gendertypes in the following)

Look... I don't think I'm going out on a limb here saying that this site is predominantly populated with accounts owned by CLOSETED (in one way or another) males.
What I don't get is those who even 'QUESTION' the very existence of male privilege. (and, of course there is female privilege, but let's stay on-topic)

But here's my argument.....
"IF" there is no male privilege, then we have equality. Equality in all things, right?
Then why are there closeted Tgirls?
WE (yes, I am closeted) are closeted for fear of being ostracized as being seen as anything less than male. Sure, the wife might also be worth hiding from because we are encroaching on her territory too. But judging from how many DADT-type relationships I see mentioned here in the forum, it's a valid point.

The other part I don't get is.....
Well, the way I see it..... after years of CDing, and reading and discussing and observing how women work the fashion, makeup, deportment aspects of life and how WE can find a way to "PASS".... well, it sure seems like we guys would be much more attuned to the tiny details of the female experience as a whole AND take on more feminine traits beyond how we look. Not the least of which is compassion, caring, listening... and trying to walk (figuratively speaking) in the shoes of another.

I get that there is a strong sexual component for we CDers (et al) involved with this "hobby", but it's such a narrow avenue to only display/consider that aspect of women.
I think if we gendernauts want to get more of the female experience, we must TRY to have empathy for women of every stripe.

(I'd like to know if there are any transmen following this thread and what they have to say about the subject.)
Oh, and I'd like to thank Greenie, and Reine for their strong and clear posts.

[Katey888]

Fascinating as this all is... not sure how this is now relating to crossdressing and/or crossdressers..?

Let's steer clear of the general politics of sexism please and keep it relevant to the impact on our community or our activities.... per the OP...

Ta very much...

Katey
Moderator

[flatlander_48]

I propose a small experiment...

Guys, put these questions to adult women that you know:

1. Does sexism exist? (Use SEXISM specifically and NOT Privilege)
2. If #1 was yes, have you experienced this personally, witnessed a sexist act or both?
3. If #1 was yes, how do you deal with it?
4. If #2 was yes, describe the situation.

Please post your findings here when you have them.

Thanks,

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Here's a bit of news to show that things are indeed becoming more equal!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0138b0bf44b98

[flatlander_48]

You know, the fact that no one commented on this tells me that there is no interest in trying to actually understand what women experience. Sad to say, that speaks volumes...

DeeAnn

I propose a small experiment...

Guys, put these questions to adult women that you know:

1. Does sexism exist? (Use SEXISM specifically and NOT Privilege)
2. If #1 was yes, have you experienced this personally, witnessed a sexist act or both?
3. If #1 was yes, how do you deal with it?
4. If #2 was yes, describe the situation.

Please post your findings here when you have them.

Thanks,

DeeAnn

[Greenie]

I will answer. But as a female. Well., yeah. You all know that by now.

1. Yes.
2. Yes. Daily.
3. I try to call it out when I see it at work. I did correct my boss when he called me "little lady" and told me that he couldn't be honest with most women because they all "cry and get over emotional.
4. What time? The time I was told that the clothing I was wearing was distracting and it was a turtleneck, but the guy can wear a velvet sweatsuit to the office and nothing is said. My boss telling me that my other female coworker was a "silly girl" for asking about ethical treatment in the workplace.

My favorite. I am required to have a college degree for my job. And the guy who cleans toilets makes 4.00 an hour more than me. When asked about the wage disparity, I was told that "historically maintence makes more" However, all this guy does it clean toilets, sweep and mop. While I manage the board of commissioners and our legal procurement contracts?