What is the problem with having a term that means you are living full time, name change, 24/7 etc. It does not invalidate anybody's experience. It not elitist. It just aids understanding. It should not have to become a big emotional issue. Unfortunately every time this is done people become offended and appropriate it.
exactly..
hey all, its in your heart...If its really important to you to call your weekend adventures,nightime dressing.. or your HRT regimen part time transition, go for it...we'll keep chatting about it..
but I feel for you.... that's your nature begging for validation that it won't get..
this is not an attack, its not a "differing opinion", its the way it actually is... and you are better off dealing with that rather than talking about words, labels studies or theories..
btw... ts women that transition for real don't always get validated either...one thing that makes our validation much harder is the tg umbrella and all the prevarication about tg/ts and transition...
Becky, what if the guy who walks over a little 200 ft. hill has severe physical limitations from birth. Inside, he dreams of scaling mt. Everest at 20 thousand or whatever ft. it is, but the reality of his physical condition is that it took him just as much effort training and devotion to scale a little hill. Not little to him, and the accomplishment is no less for him. In his head, he is a mountaineer, and he would have scaled mt. Everest had he not been physically limited. Why can we not consider him to be a mountaineer?
I am seeing quite a paradox here. On the one hand, those here who are identifying themselves as TS, or just women who are in the process of physically transitioning to be genetic women want and need full validation to be the gender they feel internally. Most who identify this way feel they were born with a disability- being in the wrong body. Not everyone will or can make the change physically. Maybe they have just had a horrible run with finances, or maybe their physical body is not strong enough to endure it. Does this make them any less female internally?
I really do not see what the problem is with the term transitioner whether they are partially or fully. They still are. partially or fully is descriptive of how they are, or to what level.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
This is beyond ridiculous. Do you really think he would call himself a mountaineer and do you think anyone else would.Originally Posted by gendermutt
You are using the same method so many part timers do when challenged. You use an example of someone who cannot do it to support those who choose not to for whatever reason
emma, there is no "method" I am using whatsoever to validate anyone. I am merely showing what I see as the paradox of TS women who are self identifying as women, even though physically/genetically they are not women. Life circumstances be damned right.... what if along the way of discovering they are women internally, but had a wife and kids.... and some horrific tragedy happened to a member of their family, and took all their resources, finances, time, everything dealing with it. So, for a purpose greater than their own, they opt not to transition. Something of greater importance than their being physically female for them, but internally they are still female.
TS women want validation for being women even though they may not be able to make a full transition. Or life circumstances are just so overwhelming for them that they cannot make a full transition in good conscience . How is this really so different? Oddly, for those in here who are saying anything short of full time or going as far as possible despite any circumstance = not being a woman. Isn't that sort of the same type of mentality used by so many in the vanilla world, once a man, born a man, always a man no matter what they do?
Wow, so the very thing that is opening doors and making transition not as difficult, and overall general acceptance is also the thing that is causing more difficulty with validation? I see quite the paradox with this....
Last edited by Rianna Humble; 08-31-2015 at 01:22 PM. Reason: Multiposts merged THIS time
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
Fine they identify as woman and TS. The difference is their life experience is living as a male. They would have little to no value giving their life experience to those that are needing to live as a female 24/7. Same with FTEW. They live part of their life as female and part as male. Again limited experience for those needing to fully transition and live 24/7.
That is the issue. It's not that hard. Ok you identify as female. Self identify as TS. Live as a male. I'm finding my second year full-time as more challenging than my first. This with 3 years HRT. 10 months post facial reconstruction. And 2 years full-time. Legal name & gender change. Out to all. Socially and professionally.
Regarding your comment to Kaitlyn's quote. We transition to live our lives as female. That would also include having that identity reflected back. Those that may not have the funds for surgeries or are genetically challenged may not be validated. The problem with the TG label is we are not regarded as woman. But gender fluid individuals.
Last edited by stefan37; 08-31-2015 at 10:22 AM.
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
Clarity, good luck with that.
This is the TS forum, that's people that are Transsexual or may think they are Transsexual.
And while I value the input of gender fluid, TG or non-TS identified part timers, I really wish they would have some respect.
Too often we have some TG members (not TS) pop in here because they are particularly 'in the zone' and wonder about their feelings, that's great come in and we will chat.
But instead they end up trying to redefine our necessary medical words (medical as in mental not surgery, gender therapists etc), because they need to validate their feelings, sure validate them but don't twist things.
Then those people stir up the natives, realise this TS/full-time stuff is serious, then disappear back to the CD forum.
It's constant and it's tiring, how long will it be before the TS members are so sick of their conversations being constantly aggravated that they just leave.
I'm fulltime, I'm on hormones, I have transitioned, I'm awaiting a consultation with a surgeon for SRS.
Someone that isn't full-time, May have tinkered with HRT, has no intention of transition and hasn't a clue about the surgery will on a weekly basis try tell me/us how it is and why I'm wrong, it's really disrespectful and pretty arrogant.
I go to a gender specialist that discusses my transition, an expert in the field, I come on here and someone not involved in the process attempts to correct me and what they are really saying is they know better that these gender specialists.
So many TS members have said what Transition is and its so very simple. It's the word the experts in the field use to describe the process from one gender to the other.
Male to female or female to male. That's it, it's not about surgery, it's not about hormones, it's just was one gender now another.
There is only Transition, there isn't a legal transition, social transition, medical transition etc.
Lets break those down.
Medical transition, is only surgery it's not a transition it's just surgery. We don't say someone that has had a BA has transitioned. If you want to convince me that a guy has surgery and is now a guy with a vagina and that's transition, then your nuts.
Social and legal transition are just parts of transition they mean nothing on their own, someone changes their name to Shirley but still lives as a man, how can any sane person think that is transition, it's just a name change.
Change your name and live full-time as the opposite gender to birth, congrats you have transitioned. HRT, surgery are just tools.
Before anyone starts to think I'm being exclusive then yes you are right I am. I'm suffering from a mental condition that has really screwed up my life, I couldn't take it anymore so I went to get help, I've been going through treatment for this condition and I've taken a huge gamble, put my house, work, family, friends on the line to treat my illness. How dare someone come and belittle my treatment plan by making up their own crap when they have absolutely no idea.
I think some are so wrapped up with themselves, they forget we transitioners are actually really suffering or have suffered mentally, it's not a game or some ideal and that's why it can get so heated on here.
Transition (or RLE) is not some fancy word you can manipulate to suit your needs, it has a very specific meaning to help guide seriously ill people, people that maybe in danger of suicide who may try here to find answers and instead find even more confusion.
Almost everyone that has or is transitioning agrees on its use, those who want to change the meaning are not transitioning. What does that tell you?
This is so exhausting, there are plenty of non-TS or part timers here who regularly contribute and their input is welcome, I PM part timers I have no issue with it and I certainly don't belittle what you they go through.
This is not about them and us, it's about people getting their facts wrong and then insisting they are right when they haven't done their homework.
Thats not what it is about though. There are people here who have not transitioned are not full time but still accepted as women by us here. At least speaking for myself anyway. But in the world outside are still encased by the male identity until they get further along. Like one person here I have skyped with and even though she was dressed in mens cloths and all I still only thought of her as "her". Some in the real world too who I know are going to get their lives right. We will accept and do accept what is on the inside - thats why they are driven to transition, that is why we try to help them along. But not everyone is really "her" on the inside either - I have met some form this forum who most definitely were not "hers" - one was downright creepy that I picked up in another town to take them to a support group in yet another town - 6 hours in my car with him and it really was just a bit of fantasy for him.
But even though they may really be women on the inside they are still working out how to be her to the rest of the world.
I should be clear about a couple things that came up in other posts after mine
i'm talking about validation that you have transitioned and live as a woman... i'm talking about the incoming external validation that syncs with the totally internal validation that makes for the most successful transitioned life..
as to Melissa's comment, I can see how it comes off but here is what I hear..
the PERMANENCE of transition is a key to making it what it is.... without permanence there is no transition....that commitment to your nature is what it is all about...my own experience is that transition was nothing like what I thought and I only found out because it became permanent...
the idea of part time transition means absolutely nothing... why can't we just say the person is considering transition? is presenting (as opposed to living) as a woman when possible to see how comfortable they are?
folks that don't live this cannot relate to this... why is it difficult to accept that I experienced transition and others have not??
why can people not take my word for it when I've done it and they haven't?? it does not invalidate their experience, it invalidates MINE
and then this..
ts people that don't transition ARE women...regardless of HRT, penis, etc......a ts woman is and was always a woman...
how many more times are we going to get "accused" of saying otherwise???
and then this..
Ts people that don't transition have not transitioned... seems like "duh!!!" but literally that's what we are getting caught up in..
in my own mind, I feel we all end up reverting to their nature... attempts to fight will get harder and harder...the older you get, the worse it gets...anybody have the opposite experience?? it gets easier??
and if the fight does not get hard, sorry but I have a hard time believing you are a woman...if dressing at night or a touch of HRT works for you, in that case I believe you are gender fluid and finding your own nature... it has NOTHING to do with transition in this case...and given how hard I fought to be me, I don't see why they wouldn't fight just as hard to be them...why even bring transsexuals into it at all??
the worst thing is I truly feel for people struggling with gender dysphoria... the answer is live your nature....fully and permanently... otherwise suffer...and suffer worse and worse over time
Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 08-31-2015 at 10:59 AM.
Makes perfect sense to me hence the reason why I would never claim to be transitioning or partial transitioning. I am still trying to figure things out by pushing boundaries to find my comfort zone and determine where I will land . . . consider me a work in progress.
Cheers
Isha
reine what you are hitting on is external vs internal.... and internal identity vs action and how that plays out
its very very difficult to talk about without crossing somebody's internal line..its not so hard to make distinctions related to action..
isha it will be interesting over time if you feel more or less validated... if people generally default to male or female for you...if your feelings about your gender shift
one thing i never understood about gender fluid is why is today vs tomorrow any different than morning vs afternoon??
can you wake up feeling female, get your mojo going and then by 130 start feeling male?? does gd kick in if that happens?? do other feelings kick in and you rush home to get all the womens clothes off before you burst into tears??
do you put energy and effort into presenting male at these times?
Hi Kaitlyn,
WRT to validation, it is an oddity right now. When I identify as a woman I will admit that people using proper gender pronouns feels good . . . indeed feels right. But I am a pragmatist as I know people see a male (one look at my avatar confirms that) so the validation if you can call it that is more likely people being kind. Hence the reason I don't get too upset when people stumble or address me as "he" vice "she" or "Sir" vice "Ma'am".
The gender fluid feeling . . . hmmm . . . good question and one I have to answer all the time and one I have spent quite a few therapy sessions trying to figure out. It is truly hard to explain as the GD I experience can be extreme to light . It is not transitory in the sense it rushes in at zero dark thirty then wanes around 4PM, sputters and fizzles out until the next week. It is more a build up until I cannot control the feeling at which point I find myself identifying as a woman.
By the GD being light I mean it is manageable in that to dress and present as a man in all aspects of life (work, socializing, and whatnot) is relatively easy to do. However, to answer your question, there is invested emotional effort to present male during these lull periods but it more a sense of "missing" and to some degree "waiting" for the next flip (sort to speak). Now when the GD is extreme I find myself emotionally drained and the thought of presenting as a man is difficult. Point in case, last Monday I was getting ready to go to work and when I went to put on my male street clothes (I never wear a uniform to and from work) I froze and had a panic attack . . . most likely the worst panic attack I have had since running down this gender fluid pathway . . . indeed given my age, I seriously thought I was having a heart attack. I could not bear the thought of going to work or living my day as a man because I did not feel like a man at that point. Now before anyone goes off on a "split personality" tangent I was fully cognizant of my personality at this time, no memory loss or black out periods so no dissociative identity disorder here. I just knew in my heart of hearts I was a woman and had to present as such. When I get like this there is no crossover in that I switch out to male for brief periods of time to deal with things, I am a woman in all aspects of my life and stay so until the next lull period. For example, I love to workout and do so at the end of the workday . . . this past week I did so as a woman which meant wearing women's workout gear and doing what I normally do as a guy in a gym full of mainly guys.
The above lasted the whole week and while I am currently presenting male and have been since Saturday, I can still feel "her" behind my eyes. Funny thing is when I am presenting as a woman, I do not feel "him" the same way. I am not sure if I have answered your question(s) well enough to understand but I can say when the GD is extreme to not act on it would be akin to not drinking water if I were dying of thirst. However on some days, I am only a little thirsty and can possibly go without water for longer periods of time, but I still need to drink.
Cheers
Isha
Last edited by Marcelle; 08-31-2015 at 09:32 PM.
I've been a fan of ReineD for a loooong time so I'm thrilled to see her weigh in, BUT (as you can see it's a big but) I have one tiny little exception to her excellent post.
RD, you're making a distinction between part-timers and full-timers that I don't think anyone else has made. It goes to motive, and I am personally not or never have questioned somebody's motives for transition. I'm on record as supporting TranSitioners even if they're doing it 'for the panties'. Now, granted I'm also on record as saying 'bless their hearts' if that is the case.
No the only distinction those who have transitioned are trying to make is between part-time and full-time. I fully understand that someone may feel exactly like me and yet not transition for reasons that are entirely up to them. The fact is that I am not one of those people that NEEDED to do it. I WANTED to do it. So I did it. If you'll remember, I used to catch some guff from some of the old guard because I was openly rejecting the old narrative. I've been called 'not real' and everything else so I don't think I have any stake in the 'real TS' argument. (no true TS, for the Fallacy geeks)
All I've ever wanted here is a culture of authenticity. This issue doesn't exist IRL (In Real Life) because it's self selecting. If you're FTEFW (Full Time Except For Work) then it will be obvious to me and anyone else. My tribe are all fully transitioned gals who don't have secret lives. I am not passing judgement on those who are closeted, I'm merely making a distinction. They are different. They may have excellent reasons for being different, but they have chosen to NOT be a part of our tribe, to not share our struggle, to not join us on the front lines in the push for acceptance. Most are too closeted to even hang out in public with us. I am four square in support of NOT transitioing, because it is a hell of a thing, but I am also here to support and advocate for those that decide to pull the pin and blow themselves into the daylight.
The part-timers don't have anything of value to add to a group of transitioners. There is nothing that the FTEFW crowd has experienced that we haven't also experienced. Transition is not about dressing up in secret. It is about living your whole life out loud and changing your legal presence. The TranSitioners have valuable experience with name changes, and coming out at work, and healthcare, and surgeries, and post transition marriages and dating, etc etc. Those looking for answers about real transitions can get hard earned information from people who have actually got skin in the game. For whatever reason, the TS gals have put it all on the line. We've committed and we've all learned hard lessons. Yes not everybody has the ability to come out and live the life that they want to live, but that doesn't change anything. I don't have the ability to be a model, but I feel really pretty so why don't they accept me?
Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?
I've obviously been doing it all wrong. I should have just put on makeup and gone out into the world and expected to be accepted as female. Oops it doesn't work that way.
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
Why not? Isn't the recent transgender movement all about acceptance? For someone who wishes accepted as they present? Go out in the world presenting as a woman and be accepted as one?
This is bold, but I think this is what is got some feathers ruffled here. Many here who are or have transitioned have gone through every hell imaginable. Like the suffragette movement to where now women go vote without giving it a second thought. For many in here it seems, you aren't real until you pull the pin, and unleash the transtutonium bomb and wipe out all existing life you had and cause a mad swath of destruction and hardship on yourself and all those around you. Only then are you to be considered real. Times are changing, and while that has been the case, it soon won't be. Someday, not all that long from now, someone will be able to go out in the world, present as they wish, and be accepted as such, and we will have you here who went through hell, to thank for it.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
Not on day one, or ten or one-hundred. But if you/we do this enough, it will cease to raise eyebrows.
It is a socialization exercise, really.
'We' as a species have a hard time with the strange and unknown. The only way past that is exposure. I taught my daughter how to deal with confrontations that way, and my son how to deal with wasps & bees. Most of it is fear of the unknown.
- MM
- Madame Moose - on my way to Anne
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"I yam what I yam and tha's all what I yam." -- Popeye the Sailor
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?" - Hillel the Elder
Reine, I think "transition" is a term that best refers to people who are both cross-sex identified ("transsexual," as generally used here), and go full-time (at a minimum). I don't mind any of the grammatical senses used, as long as they are coherent in meaning, i.e., they describe the same thing or intention. I use "I am transitioning" all the time, and with a few quizzical exceptions - here - everyone understands *exactly* what that means.
Without getting into the morass of the underlying discussion, I accept that not all cross-sex identified people transition. So your gender identity point is theoretically valid. This is a transsexual forum, however, and most of the noise, as I see it, is coming from gender variant people of various types and identities. These have their own needs and solutions. Maybe they do need their own term. These people are often a better fit here than to the CD forum, though the regularity of the conflict makes me wonder. Maybe their concerns would be better addressed in a gender-variant forum rather than splitting the transsexual forum along transitioner and non-transitioner lines.
Lea
Thanks for your thoughts, Lea (and everyone else).
Reine
Lea, I agree that a forum for gender variant individuals would give them a place for free flow of discussion that doesn't conflict with the needs of the binary transitioners. But when I look at the transmasculine forum, I see that it is mainly inactive. Would a gender variant forum stand a chance of regular discussion? It is a tough one as it obviously isn't a clean fit. There are similarities and there are definitely differences.
As a long time member and an out [for 11 years] "gender fluid" TG identifying person,I am curious as to who some of you feel is such a problem here on this forum....We all are on the same playground,just chose different friends to play with. I can tell you honestly that living an open,gender fluid life is far more challenging for the "masses" to accept. Those that get it are joined by those that learn from you. In the end ,we are a very effective "teaching tool"...
I understand what you're getting at, but the literal phrasing seems unnecessarily dismissive. The lived experience of someone presenting as female, even part time, in another part of the world may well be of interest. Or someone in another line of work where there are unique challenges to consider when contemplating transition. Any number of life experiences aren't necessarily universal.
This is the part that strikes me as completely reasonable. Reading the forum description it would seem that yesterday's thread derailment by part-timers was explicitly against the intent of the forum. I'm in complete agreement that some authenticity is a reasonable expectation, as is respect for the fact that this forum is about our lives, not our hobby. If I want to hear about a night on the town, or getting pulled over with mismatched identification, or any number of other experiences then I don't have to look far to find those threads on the site. I do want a place I can interact with my peers. That seems like a legitimate request.Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?
~ Kimberly
“To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard
I think this is a reasonable request. It could be limited to access by approval. The administrators and mods could certainly define the boundaries of the transsexual forum to include only those who are transitioners by their definition of the term.
Until then, the boundaries might be established informally, with a polite reminder to non transitioners who stray here, as mechamoose indicated, but responding to new posts.
O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
This concept is as straightforward as we want it to be. However, we tend to complicate the heck out of things because we're intellectuals.
Just take the concept of "woman" for example and look at how that has changed over the generations. There was a time when being a "woman" is associated with wearing dresses or looking like Marilyn Monroe. But that stereotype was later rebuked because many women like wearing something else and enjoy... well, not looking like Marilyn Monroe.
Now, the concept of "woman" is so diverse that you can hardly find any consensus within the same culture, let alone across different age groups and regions of the world.
This forum is populated with a group of intellectuals who are obsessed with definitions. And like the DSM-5, we are essentially trying to label a phenomena which is complex, multifactorial, and subjective.
At least DSM-5 is based partly on research and epidemiological data, what we have here on the forum are a group of people with unique experiences trying to exert their opinions based mainly on anecdotal experience.
In the end, it boils down the most vocal group of individuals to define what these terms mean, at least when the terms are being used in this forum.
Their theories and observations can neither be empirically proven nor disproved.
I'm not saying that definitions are not important because I believe they facilitate communication.
But to be pedantic about it only serves to invalidate others and disrupts communication.
I don't remember women arguing if "one is more 'woman' than the other", so why are we so bothered with who is more 'trans' than others?
There is a distinction between between 'not choosing' and 'not ready'. We all have our own battles to fight before we are 'ready' to take the plunge. Just like every soldier needs to be trained before they are ready for combat. A soldier in training could be just as eager to fight as the rest of their comrades and to say that they have 'chosen' not to participate in battle is insulting.
You can be and feel exclusive in that tribe of yours, but count me out.
Love,
S
Last edited by sarahcsc; 09-03-2015 at 06:53 AM.
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me" - Ayn Rand
i think there is a difference between not choosing and not ready as well
but as i've said many times, a woman is a woman....ts or not.......and in many other posts misty has been crystal clear that a big reason for being here is to communicate with the "not ready"
thats why i am here too
and frankly i am fiercely protective of those people...it is a brutal stark place to be a woman that cant or wont transition....its horrible..i have been there, and it sucks...
and i feel blessed to be able to share my experience with them and hopefully have a positive influence..
and when i see stuff that just aint the way it is, and i see people projecting their gender identities on to struggling ts women or men, or when i see fantasy/non constructive patterns in ts women,
i post my thoughts...
not transitioned ts people are not well served by "you go girl", cd's trying to redefine and assume their identities, and intellecual masturbation... and for those of us that transition, this forum is a small microcosm of how we are viewed..
lots of supporters, lots of disbelievers, lots of dreamers and lots of people that tell us about something they do not comprehend...
i would be shocked to find out 2+2=5...if it were really five, i would have no way to know this because of how i understand the world...
transition = 5
and last thing...
this doesnt mean GD is exclusive to ts women or men...its not UNsupportive of cd's to focus on ts people
all experience is valid but claiming false experience is not constructive, everyone is welcome to post but they must own their posts, and accept reasoned and informed responses even if they don't like them
transition is brutal but it can be managed and executed successfully most of the time..
and pls don't insult my intelligence...i'm aware some people have no $$, having crippling comorbid mental health issues, or they are buried in a religious family,etcetc and have a much tougher road than others...
alot of the conversations i get into are about people getting their feelings hurt over those things...the hurt feelings inject intellectually barren strawmen into many conversations here..
for example sarah...nobody says "i'm more trans than you...NOBODY"...and yet you repeat it over and over... you falsely conflate saying "im transsexual and here is what i did to transition" with i'm more trans than you... and frankly, some people are transsexual, everybody else is not.... what would have us say..
and you implicitly impugn the motives and thoughts of people you've basically accused of elitism, then you say there are way to many people obsessed with definitions, fair enough...but you are obsessed with imponderable ideas period..
Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 09-03-2015 at 12:14 PM.
I am real
LOL, well played.
Anyhoo, this isn't a place to talk about why we're NOT transitioning. In this little group, we prefer to discuss how each of us has faced and overcome those obstacles that seem insurmountable from the outside. Your advice may be to just avoid transition altogether, well hell that's my advice too.
Unfortunately some people will transition regardless of how crazy it is and those are the people who deserve our support. I am one of those gals that damned the torpedoes and have experienced the joy and pain of doing so. I come here to help those coming after me, not to sort through all the reasons I shouldn't have transitioned.
...and lets be honest here, those that aren't transitioning are loaded with excellent reasons to not do so. Are they really TS? Does it matter?
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