This is interesting and I think is highlighting the difference between some deeper thinking and more stereotypical ideas. It is complex and is more difficult for any of us to be objective as we are all so intimately involved with the feelings that we believe we are expressing and observing.

Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
I don't believe that physical differences are the only true differences between men and women. I'm saying they are the strongest observable differences, since there are similarities and overlaps in everything else.

I agree, and I haven't seen any studies either. Even if studies did show that some traits are more feminine or masculine, how could we ever determine whether the cause is social or biological? Also, how could the sample sizes be large enough and could the studies be replicated with the same results in different parts of the world? So I have relied instead on personal observation based on conventional wisdom. I'm not saying that men and women are the same. Again I'm saying that the strongest observable differences in this very complex world of ours are related to the physical (women have softer voice, smaller size, softer skin, finer features, they walk and sit differently, etc, on top of the basic biological functions of both sexes).
This should be qualified to make clear that these physical differences are based on averages of men and women for western society and of generic caucasian ethnicity. Even within this I believe that there are cultural divisions (between, for example, the USA and UK) that are strong enough to impact how culture defines the societal aspects of behaviour and our individual interpretation of femininity and the male/female roles in society. I think some of these beliefs are highly individual, but that some can be demonstrated to be more widespread. I would expect that everyone agrees the physical differences on average, are obvious and demonstrable?

It's the more intangible aspects that are difficult to pin down, but I do think, Reine, you're missing something here:

Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
These are the sentiments I don't agree with, that are often written here: women are interested in different things than men; women enjoy shopping more than men; women are more capable of empathy and nurturing than men; women bond more among themselves than men do, (and other statements that don't immediately come to mind). We cannot put all women and men in a box like that. These statements may be true for some people, but they are not for others. And the conclusion drawn by the CDers who say these things is that if they are interested in knitting, like to shop for dresses, get along with kids, and enjoy talking to women, it must then mean they are feminine.
These may be stereotypes but they are stereotypes for a reason: the behaviour of large numbers of normal people support these things for me - they are not absolutes, but they are trends that are supported by society. One could go further and suggest that these differences are actually strongly promoted by some aspects of society (media and publishing, for example) but reality supports this too, even though much of the behaviour may well be based on cultural or societal constructs. Take one of your examples: women enjoy shopping more than men - in general, I see this as being true (I hate shopping personally; my wife could do it 24/7; but clearly that does not apply to 100% of women or men) - but if you start to dissect why more women do shop compared with men (I think this could be proven statistically), then I think there are societal reasons behind this - conforming; fashion; business; attracting; competing; opportunity... all play a part in just one aspect of our differences but they are culturally and societally driven.

When CDers express their need to reflect those aspects, I think all many folk are doing is reflecting their perception of how society would apply a label of femininity to affirm their own expression and feelings. I don't think that's wrong - and it's probably not calculated a lot of the time; it's subconscious. We want to be associated with the aspects that society as a whole accepts as definably feminine, whether that is appearance, behaviour, mannerisms, or feelings.

I think I can understand why cisgender folk and TS folk have difficulty in understanding how anyone could feel two 'genders' within one identity - I know I have difficulty understanding the feelings myself. But perhaps try to think of it another way...
Even cisgender folk have difficulty in describing what they feel as being masculine or feminine - but if you were able to suspend disbelief for a while and just accept that some people have these competing aspects within themselves - imagine how confusing and disorientating it would be to try to rationalise or describe the feelings when those aspects manifest themselves. That is why I think most people defer to what appears to be a simplistic view of how society accepts femininity and the behaviour and roles that are stereotypical, but you have to accept the validity of that view first.

It is complex, but most people will distill the description down to something very simplistic.

Katey x