The Public ?????????

[Julogden]

CD's try to look like females, and most females are sexually attracted to males, so dressing as a female results in most people assuming that you like men too.

In western culture, the most visible examples of males who dress as females are drag queens, and they are virtually all gay.

Generally, the public isn't willing to pay close enough attention to the difference between DQ's and CD's to see that many CD's are straight. :2c:

Most folks can't even figure out who goes first at a 4-way stop sign. And we expect them to know the finer points of a gender minority?

Exactly! I love that assessment of the situation.

[donnalee]

Mmmm!
What colour are CD glasses?

Pink, obviously.

[Vickie_CDTV]

There are practical reasons for men to wear skirts (if their job is all all done sitting, for example, as is the case for myself.) Heel might be a stretch though.

The Donahue show in question is on YouTube (or was, not sure if they took it down or not) and was from 1987.

[karen inside]

this brings to mind some of the clothes i was wearing in the 70's, bright colored hip hugger bell bottoms, fancy dress shirts, some with tropical floral patterns, sandals, short cut-off jeans, long blond hair past our shoulders- we weren't called gay or crossdressers...living in florida, we were surfers. we got high, listened to loud musik, partying every day, dated babes! Dressed the part. I used to pick on a guy who wore clear nail polish and plucked his eyebrows (guilty). I was on the swim team, wore a speedo...not gay (but didn't know about CD even though I had been trying on girls underthings in secret for several years before. The term "crossdressing" is a shallow description in my opinion-seems all things must have a label. After all, who tagged us with this name? Hollywood, or the Government? Our passion for all things feminine is much deeper, more complex than the public can ever understand.

[Sara Jessica]

Sara,
"And why do we care what the unwashed masses think??? " Because we still have to take extra care when being out and about to avoid the unwanted attentions of the neanderthals. Because we need law makers to have a better understanding of our why's and what's and because it improves the environment for those who will follow on behind us.

Sorry, lawmakers don't give a hoot about the part-timers. They'd just assume keep us out of the ladies rooms if there were a litmus test to distinguish us from the TS women (and many would keep them out as well).

There is no movement out there to protect the CD'er. And I dare to say a vast majority of part-timers don't have any interest in furthering the cause you describe.

This of course is the reason why I conduct myself with nothing but positivity when out & about, because who knows who might follow in my wake and what species of trans they might be. Am I doing anything for the part-timer "movement"? Not so much in a specific sense, because I am invisible to most of them as well. My forays into the real world mean little to those who stay behind closed doors.

As for the neanderthals, I seriously doubt their motivations would be any different if they "understood" that the average part-timer running around town in a dress is not necessarily gay. Like they would replace an internalized rage against us with "hey, nice dress, wanna have a beer???"

[mechamoose]

The only issue I will take with you gendermutt is the idea that gay men are effeminate. I know many bears & biker types who look like uber butch males. Cigars, grease & sweat. There is a huge (YUUGE) segment that is into that. The *idea* of a gay male is perhaps all 'faggy', but that isn't the reality.

I was going to just quote a line or two, but the whole song deserves space:

Real Men

Take your mind back, I don't know when
Sometime when it always seemed
To be just us and them
Girls that wore pink
And boys that wore blue
Boys that always grew up better men
Than me and you

What's a man now, what's a man mean
Is he rough or is he rugged
Is he cultural and clean
Now it's all change, it's got to change more
Cause we think it's getting better
But nobody's really sure

And so it goes, go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are

See the nice boys, dancing in pairs
Golden earring golden tan
Blow-wave in the hair
Sure they're all straight, straight as a line
All the gays are macho
Can't you see their leather shine

You don't want to sound dumb, don't want to offend
So don't call me a fagot
Not unless you are a friend
Then if you're tall and handsome and strong
You can wear the uniform and I could play along

And so it goes, go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are

Time to get scared, time to change plan
Don't know how to treat a lady
Don't know how to be a man
Time to admit, what you call defeat
Cause there's women running past you now
And you just drag your feet

Man makes a gun, man goes to war
Man can kill and man can drink
And man can take a wh*re
Kill all the blacks, kill all the reds
And if there's war between the sexes
Then there'll be no people left

And so it goes, go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are

Joe Jackson - 'Real Men'

[Diversity]

You are right in your reasoning and in your feelings, but the societal issues surrounding men in women's clothes is far behind the times. It is changing, but ever so slowly for people like us, who simply enjoy wearing women's clothes. It is unfortunate, but it is what it is at this time.
Di

[PattyT]

In western culture, the most visible examples of males who dress as females are drag queens, and they are virtually all gay.
Generally, the public isn't willing to pay close enough attention to the difference between DQ's and CD's to see that many CD's are straight.

Right on! So many view us as gay but it seems the vast majority of us are not. If the public could learn to make this distinction life would be much easier for us.
I like the following quote as well:

We are indeed a whole rainbow of people insides and out

People should look at us for what we are, and not what they imagine us to be.

[sometimes_miss]

People don't like complications. So, it's quite simple, really. To the outsider, most female clothing (especially the stuff we like to wear) is designed to make a woman sexually attractive to men. So, if we wear it, most people assume we are trying to attract men. And so they assume we are all gay.

[Krististeph]

It is hard to put one's self in the place of understanding how another person feels. All our different experiences make it hard to see things the way others do.

Personally, I think society in general is overwhelmed. Unless something directly affects the public- it is too easy to listen to the ridiculous portrayals of minority groups by media. And media has no desire to portray things accurately.

Fine detail escapes people unless they focus.

If it is hard to get students who are paying money to learn to pay attention details- it will be likely be much harder to get the public to pay attention to details about something they do not need or care about.

I'm not defending the public, just explaining. We have preconceptions and we generalize because it helps us organize and understand things faster, but it does this at the cost of understanding details.

Any guy who is not masculine = gay. Why? It's easy and fast. (And retarded. [In the clinical sense]) And most of the people in society do not care how anyone else feels or lives. IMO.

[mechamoose]

'Complications'

So we set off a traditional males radar. GOOD.

We are expressing our female side, so we confuse some XY people... fallout.

Just because we are pretty doesn't mean anything else. Those droogs need to learn that.

Yes means yes, no means no. We are not being coy.

For those of us fearing being predated upon, you have an honest fear. Just because you present a certain way doesn't mean you are 'looking for it'.

Be safe and realistic. I live in Massachusetts, super liberal and accepting. Texas? PFFT. I wouldn't dream of it unless I lived in Austin. I have relatives in Kentucky the lower Carolina. I couldn't be who I am there.

[Sara Jessica]

If the public could learn to make this distinction life would be much easier for us.

Please explain how life would be easier for us.

Would perfectly accurate public perception suddenly lead to all of the hetero-CD'ers in dresses and heels running out into the great wide open from behind closed doors?

Personally, it would have no effect on me at all if the magic perception pill were taken by the Muggles.

[Alice Torn]

Moose, very interesting poem. It says a lot.

[Tina_gm]

I mostly agree with you gendermutt ( and you do have the coolest avatar name on this forum!) for the most part, but I never see Gay men as more feminine. The have their own gay-male way of speaking and talking, and that's perfectly expected and fine, but their own gay uniqueness doesn't remind me of females in the least.

Thank you AnnieMac. I would agree that what many out gay males show or act is not precisely as women. WE can easily tell the difference, as we are emulating or just being naturally feminine. However, the feminine gay men, while not acting exactly like women, it is still feminine in its basic concept. They still act closer to women in many ways than to straight men. It is different, but to many who have little to no knowledge of how gender and sexuality do differ, they will not be able to differentiate between the two.

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The only issue I will take with you gendermutt is the idea that gay men are effeminate. I know many bears & biker types who look like uber butch males. Cigars, grease & sweat. There is a huge (YUUGE) segment that is into that. The *idea* of a gay male is perhaps all 'faggy', but that isn't the reality.

I do not disagree with you really moose. You do have more knowledge than I do, as it is a part of your life. However, most gay men who are out, loud and proud are the more effeminate ones. Rob Halford of Judas Priest is among those who you are speaking about. He is the exception of loud and proud yet also pretty macho.

We are talking not about what reality is, but why so many people do not have a good understanding of us or our realities. If someone is only presented with one side of a story, that is all they will understand the story to be. We cannot really blame the masses for their lack of information. 1st, our minority status... as in less than 5% are truly transgender. Of that small amount of people, a majority of those are not out, so people are only viewing 1 to 2% of the population being trans. Of those that are out, many are TS, and since they identify as women, a fair amount of them are attracted to men.

Almost all of what has been presented in the media by portrayals, or transition stories has been of MTF or FTM who are attracted to what would be their birth gender same sex attraction. Hard to say someone who identifies as TS is gay if they are MTF and dating a guy. People do not understand that though. That is why the two guestions are usually 1. are you gay 2. do you want to be a woman/have a sex change. Up to now, and mostly even now, this is what cisgender straight people generally see. They have no other side of the story.

I am not one who will be telling the other side, at least not in the forseeable future. I just say this so that we understand that it really isn't the fault of the majority. They are not being so willfully ignorant. (some will of course) some will hate because they hate. We are only breaking the 1st level of the epidermis when it comes to transgender knowledge.

[Helen_Highwater]

Sorry, lawmakers don't give a hoot about the part-timers. They'd just assume keep us out of the ladies rooms if there were a litmus test to distinguish us from the TS women (and many would keep them out as well).

There is no movement out there to protect the CD'er. And I dare to say a vast majority of part-timers don't have any interest in furthering the cause you describe.

It may be the case in the US that there's no movement to protect the CD'er but here in the UK a recent report by a select committee of MP's berated the government for failing to do more to bring gender issues and the equality those involved deserve more to mainstream politics. It wasn't that long ago that there wasn't any political support for gay rights but that certainly isn't the case now whichever side of the pond you're on. Things can and will change. It just needs gentle pressure on those who legislate to push the envelope a little at a time.

[Sara Jessica]

Helen, I appreciate your point but you are lumping CD'ers in with "gender issues". Legislation and public opinion is largely shaped by the TS experience, and rightly so.

Myself, as a part-timer who spends a decent amount of time out & about, I am at the mercy of how I am perceived by the outside world (TS, CD, straight, gay) but at the same time I benefit from an increased awareness when it comes to TS women and any protections they have fought for and earned. I may identify with the TS woman but I have not walked in her shoes so all I can do is what little I am able to help her cause.

The behind-closed-doors CD'er, a vast percentage I dare to say, already protests over being perceived as TG (well documented in these pages), let alone gay...heaven forbid. This is my point. That person doesn't give a hoot about the larger social issues aside from "boo hoo, why can't men wear dresses?", yet do little to change things. In turn, lawmakers care little about them.

Again, laws focus on the TS experience and because there is no litmus test to distinguish between every expression of TG (including CD), the broad effect of such laws has little choice but to sweep all of us into one pile.

[Krististeph]

'Complications'

So we set off a traditional males radar. GOOD.

We are expressing our female side, so we confuse some XY people... fallout.

Just because we are pretty doesn't mean anything else. Those droogs need to learn that.

THAT"S A BIG POINT! I think that many males get so freaked out that they responded to female signals instead of (what they call) an actual female- it attacks their self esteem. And contrary to what has recently been publicized- it is people with over inflated egos who are more likely to respond aggressively. People with low self esteem simply do not feel they are worth fighting for themselves. People with over-blown esteems are the ones eager to defend any perceived slight.

Male egos are rather untamed, I think we can generally agree with this.

I guess then what the general XY public (I love that term- by the way, Moose, "XY people") is saying is that they are mad because we are fooling them. I can definitely see how that could cause consternation...

But what gives "Joe XY public" the right to claim that we should not do something just because it impinges on his arena of girl watching? Damn, there's a better way of saying that, but I'm having trouble putting it into words...

[JeanTG]

[COLOR=#4b0082]
People with over-blown esteems are the ones eager to defend any perceived slight.

IMHO it's people with low self-esteem or self-confidence that have the over-blown egos. It's overcompensation. People who are at peace with themselves, and who have quiet confidence, generally don't feel threatened and thus don't feel the need to beat up on sexual/gender minorities.

We usually feel most threatened by what we fear in ourselves, and when that button is pushed, out comes the aggressive behavior.

[Tina_gm]

Agreed. We fear most what we don't understand.

[mechamoose]

But what gives "Joe XY public" the right to claim that we should not do something just because it impinges on his arena of girl watching? Damn, there's a better way of saying that, but I'm having trouble putting it into words...

Not all females are XX. It is really sad and tragic that traditional XY males feel like any hint of same-sex interest is a threat. If you like someone, you *like* them.

Threat on what, exactly? Are they going to somehow be a lesser person? Is it about submissiveness? I have had more than one woman in my life who was not the LEAST bit submissive. Don't guys LIKE aggressive females?

- Kitty / Moose

[CandyGirl]

In think that the public is a bit repulsive towards crossdressers is because it's off "the chart" for them.
but i think that if you're cute in a dress and a guy likes what he sees, he will get sexually confused and that leads to a repulsive behavior.