Enforcement

[ReineD]

The one that I had in mind when I mentioned this happened in a restaurant in downtown Detroit. As I remember, the woman didn't look particularly masculine, ..

You be the judge. I found the article: http://www.advocate.com/business/201...oking-man-sues

She wasn't arrested after all. She was thrown out of the restaurant.

There is a lawsuit, according to the article, and Michigan does have LGBT protection:
https://www.equalitymi.org/resources...gal-protection

How many GGs have had to use the men's room at some stage or other

I have but only a few times, when the lines were so long for the ladies rooms, there wouldn't have been enough time during intermission. I peeked in the door first and saw no one in the men's, and so I went. Other women followed me.

I don't think that any man walking in behind us would have felt threatened though. Just as I don't think that the majority of GGs would feel threatened by someone who is transitioning. Of course I don't know everyone who is transitioning, but the people that I do know and the pictures that I do see do not look like the mind's eye image that a lot of people have, when they think of "predators wearing dresses".

[Robin414]

Great point, reminds me of a Family Guy episode where Peter punches a pregnant woman who happens to look like a guy!

[scarlett]

No idea, but if you have a sticker in your bag that declares it an ALL GENDER bathroom, and you stick it over the normal sign when no one was watching, surely that would make it okay?

Attachment 260362

Where do we get such stickers? I'm all in.

[PaulaQ]

Unfounded fears and treats of vigilantism and bathroom attacks promote more fear. Lack of toilet paper and cleanlines

Unfortunately, something like 70% of trans people are verbally or physically abused (9%) in public restrooms. I can tell you annecdotally - but I believe the anecdotes because some of them are from people I know personally, that the climate that anti-Trans propaganda creates more harassment and assault. We will probably break last years record number of trans people who are murdered, and we are dealing with a LOT of suicidal trans people locally - I've already been to one such person's funeral this year.

I'm not trying to be contrary or alarmist. And I wish I didn't have these types of things to report, because I am really worried that someone else in my area will end up dead.

I believe the hostility created towards us are an intended consequence of these laws.

[heatherdress]

You be the judge. I found the article: http://www.advocate.com/business/201...oking-man-sues

She wasn't arrested after all. She was thrown out of the restaurant.
There is a lawsuit, according to the article, and Michigan does have LGBT protection:
https://www.equalitymi.org/resources...gal-protection

Reine - This is not an example of a transgender bathroom incident. The woman was a GG female. And there is no prohibitive bathroom law in Detroit, or Michigan. In fact, this unfortunate incident happened in spite of a well-publicized gender protection Detroit law. A GG woman was thrown out of the ladies room and the restaurant because she mistakenly looked like a man. Ridiculous and unfortunate. So even in a place which has gender protective laws, there is no guarantee that it will be effective. And a bathroom incident occurred even though there was no prohibitive bathroom law.

[flatlander_48]

Reine - This is not an example of a transgender bathroom incident.

No, in effect it is. Anti-discrimination statutes of this type protect the stated constituency, and by extension, also those who are perceived to be of that constituency. In this case, a genetic woman was perceived to be transgender.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Reine - This is not an example of a transgender bathroom incident.

Are you familiar with the TG website, Susans.org/Susan's Place? They had an article on her and they think she is TG. They could be wrong. I suppose no one knows for sure. I'm using "she" pronouns because I don't know either. But it doesn't matter whether she is or not, what matters is they threw her out of the restaurant because they thought she was a man using the women's bathrooms.

[heatherdress]

No, in effect it is. Anti-discrimination statutes of this type protect the stated constituency, and by extension, also those who are perceived to be of that constituency. In this case, a genetic woman was perceived to be transgender.

DeeAnn

DeeAnn - You miss the point. Most significant is the fact that Detroit has a very strong gender-related anti-discrimination law - and this happened anyway. And Detroit does not have a bathroom restriction law - and this happened anyway.

Seems to represent an answer to bot enforcement and effect of these laws, both protective and descriptive.

Also, it is another example of misinformation. This unfortunate woman is a GG female, not a transgender person. And she was not arrested.

Manipulation of information on both "sides" promotes unnecessary fear and unfortunate ill-will.

[NicoleScott]

Past incidents have nothing to do with the question: how will recent bathroom bills (assignment by birth sex) be enforced?

[sometimes_miss]

Well it's not meant to be enforced ... It's just there so when someone decides to make a stink, that the mall police have a reason to call the real police, and that the real police now have a justifiable reason to take you into custody.

Had this discussion on numerous other forums of late. Basically what it comes down to, is 1. The fear that some drunken cis male will post himself in the ladies room and harass the young females in there, using the excuse as posing as a transgender person as his right to be there, and 2. the right winger parents don't want to have to talk to their kids about real transgender people that their kids might see. Because when pressed to provide an example of a true transgender person assaulting someone, they can't even come up with one example. Beyond that, it's a simple case of people feeling uncomfortable about having a transgender person in the vicinity of themselves, and we addressed that problem back when we went through the segregation laws in the last century; you can't remove people from a public space just because you don't like the idea of sharing a space with them.

[flatlander_48]

Past incidents have nothing to do with the question: how will recent bathroom bills (assignment by birth sex) be enforced?

It does and it doesn't.

In the Detroit case, the woman offered documentation that was labeled F. Ultimately, it seems that this is the only real defense a person can have. However, that will not protect you from being challenged. If one is attempting to fly under the radar, it can be a very telling question.

At present, there are 4 states where the gender marker on your birth certificate cannot be changed. With that as a reference, you may not be able to change other personal documents. The net effect is that you're just screwed.

It could be that you have a letter from a medical professional attesting to your transition status, but I don't know if that has any legal standing. Someone could always say that a signature was faked on stolen letterhead.

Anyway, it is a very odd situation if there is no statement of what one would need to prove innocence and what the penalty is if one cannot prove innocence.

DeeAnn

[tbryant2k16]

How will these laws work with FtoM? Now your going to have very male looking women using the women's room because that's what they were born as?

[Launa]

In the area I live in they are enforced by the local police. However they are not out watching for us but they become involved when someone wants to file a complaint. Currently if someone complains then you can be charged for being a nuisance. Apparently the investigating officer will make a decision whether or not it is worth laying charges.

[tbryant2k16]

If all your doing is going in and doing your business and not causing any problems. Then there is no reason for any nuisance charges. Quite frankly if your causing a nuisance in any restroom or anywhere, you deserve the charges. And a GG could also get the nuisance charge if she's the one causing the nuisance.

[ReineD]

Most significant is the fact that Detroit has a very strong gender-related anti-discrimination law - and this happened anyway. And Detroit does not have a bathroom restriction law - and this happened anyway.

She is suing for $25,000 and the case is still open. I just find it exceedingly strange that they would refuse to even look at her ID when she offered to show it to them ... AFTER they had heard her voice, especially as you say, in a large city that has gender anti-discrimination laws. The restaurant, Fishbone's, is a chain with 2 other restaurants so it is a fairly large operation. They would be aware of laws and they'd have policies in place, more so I think than a small Mom&Pop type restaurant in the middle of nowhere. So I wonder if there was another disagreement/dispute than the bathroom issue that is not coming out in the news. The restaurant is not commenting.

So Cortney Bogorad is suing three entities: A male individual (I'm guessing the security guard in question), the security company, and the restaurant. There's a date set next fall for a settlement discussion.

[Zooey]

...and Michigan does have LGBT protection:
https://www.equalitymi.org/resources...gal-protection

Reine, it can be a bit obtuse but you need to read pages like this pretty carefully. According to this page...

• There is no STATEWIDE protection in Michigan (definitely true)
• Of the cities listed there
  
  • Some have protections based on sexual orientation, but not gender identity/expression
  • Most only cover one or two areas (typically housing and employment)
  • The only city with a public accommodations clause is Flint, but their ordinance does not cover gender identity/expression

So basically, according to that site, there are no cities in Michigan where a non-discrimination ordinance comprehensively covers the rights of transgender or gender non-conforming individuals to use bathrooms in accordance to their gender identity or expression. Like many places, those with female ID markers are likely to be "okay", but Michigan only recently allowed those who have not had GRS to do so (by updating their passports first).

It's not clear that this site is 100% accurate or up to date though, as e.g. Bay City has recently passed a non-discrimination ordinance which appears to cover discrimination in public accommodation. So does Ann Arbor's, Detroit's, East Lansing's, Traverse City's, and I'm sure others. I really wish that there were better comprehensive roundups for this stuff.

[tbryant2k16]

Hope she gets the full amount and the security guard fired.

And with these laws being passed, situations like this could come up far more frequently. Anyone who doesn't look like the typical female will be scrutinized even when they they are biologically female.

[Launa]

If all your doing is going in and doing your business and not causing any problems. Then there is no reason for any nuisance charges. Quite frankly if your causing a nuisance in any restroom or anywhere, you deserve the charges. And a GG could also get the nuisance charge if she's the one causing the nuisance.

Right but the accuser calling the police complains that a person male or female is in the wrong bathroom. So then you are now guilty and have to prove your innocence and your right to be there. From what I have discussed with long time Trans folk in my area is that the cop has a big bearing on whether or not to help the accuser lay charges. So if you get a cop like the 1 from Texas then you will get charged and apparently beaten.

[xNicolex]

I don't think it is enforceable because how many people will actually check your birth sex. ''excuse me sir/mam could I see your birth certificate before entering this rest room?'' lol there are so many women out there that look like men, I'm not being mean but there are. It's just not realistic, If it were the restroom police would join forces with the fashion police and say we couldn't pee sitting down or dress either

[heatherdress]

Right but the accuser calling the police complains that a person male or female is in the wrong bathroom. So then you are now guilty and have to prove your innocence and your right to be there. From what I have discussed with long time Trans folk in my area is that the cop has a big bearing on whether or not to help the accuser lay charges. So if you get a cop like the 1 from Texas then you will get charged and apparently beaten.

Reality - If a person calls the police to complain, and if the police respond to investigate a person in the wrong gender bathroom, and if the police arrive before the bathroom violator leaves the wrong bathroom, there might be some investigation. The legal principal in the US is there has to be some proof that a crime has been committed for a person to be arrested. Accusers do no lay charges with the cop and there is no data to suggest that you then get charged and beaten.

[tbryant2k16]

Maybe in some of those places. But the odds of you even being around by time the police arrive on a non-high priority call is likely very remote. But in reality, how often does that actually occur? Extremely rare.

[Launa]

Reality - If a person calls the police to complain, and if the police respond to investigate a person in the wrong gender bathroom, and if the police arrive before the bathroom violator leaves the wrong bathroom, there might be some investigation. The legal principal in the US is there has to be some proof that a crime has been committed for a person to be arrested. Accusers do no lay charges with the cop and there is no data to suggest that you then get charged and beaten.

Reality is I'm saying it can happen and has happened to an acquaintance of mine in one of our big cities. It happened at a large hotel where a GG complained about a TS and asked to see her ID as the GG said she was in the wrong washroom. The Trans girl refused to do it and the GG turned it into a big stink. It was diffused because when everybody came to investigate the transgirl had all her gender markers changed so they told the GG she was making a scene. Now I was being sarcastic when I was talking about getting charged and beaten but reality is the investigating officer does have some clout on whether or not to help diffuse things or impose their will. Imagine if a cop like this one comes to do the investigation. Do you think he will have an influence? Maybe add in a lie or two?

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/texa...h-my-daughter/



Sorry but I'm not always good at attaching links hopefully you can open it.

[ReineD]

Reality is I'm saying it can happen

Launa, anything "can" happen. I could get shot at the grocery store. There was a shooting just down my street a few weeks ago. I could get run over when I cross the street. Someone might break into my house. A drunk driver might plough into my car on the freeway. My plane could crash.

Do most people have these things happen? No. It's unfortunate when they do happen, in fact it's tragic in the event of severe injury or death, but we have Court systems for redress. So the likelihood of TGs getting arrested when they use the bathroom of choice is very small. Think of it. You go pee, you wash your hands, and you're gone long before any police officer can get there.

The person in the article above - is she the only person of questionable gender (to onlookers) in the country to have used a bathroom that people didn't think she should use? No. There likely have been tens of thousands. But how many instances have there been like hers. Twenty five? Fifty? In a country of 7 billion people.

What I find intriguing is the level of panic that some people are spreading, as if these headlines describe the situation and the fate of all TGs all the time, even in the states that are passing these bills (which, BTW, will be proven unconstitutional eventually). The reality is that tens of thousands of TGs do go out without issues even in those states. Do some TGs get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup. Do other people get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup, that happens too.

So sure, it's not perfect and the TG bill situation is especially dysfunctional right now (as long as we have political groups funding these wedge issues for the purpose of diverting votes during this election process), but then the situation as a whole is immensely better than it was 30 or 40 years ago when the cross-gender expression was considered a mental illness. And didn't people get arrested for indecency for dressing in public?

So where is everyone's perspective!

[summerbunny]

With Trespassing laws

Here is someone who was arrested for standing up and using it in the women's restroom causing a disturbance. Their using trespassing laws against the transsexual.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...troom-use?lite

Past incidents have nothing to do with the question: how will recent bathroom bills (assignment by birth sex) be enforced?

[PaulaQ]

Once again, enforcement will RARELY be by the police unless you are astoundingly unlucky. It will be by private citizens in the form of harassment or assault. And trying to make it sound like assaults and harassment are rarities for trans people is really dishonest. Unfortunately, a great many of us have encountered such situations. I certainly have, and I know many others who have as well.

Of course, there have been a couple of law enforcement officials who've threatened violence upon trans people they find in the women's room. One of them is in my area.