Maybe crossdressing isn't exactly so harmless....

[sometimes_miss]

Is crossdressing really harmless behavior? We all really want to believe so. I had an interesting point made to me this morning, when I again crossed messages with a woman on plentyoffish.com. I post on their forums pretty regularly, and she had read a comment by me on one of the dating threads. As my profile no longer includes any mention of crossdressing, the discussion eventually came around to why I'm not 'with girlfriend'. Of course, I said I'm dating, but haven't found anyone I would want anything serious with. And of course she accused me of the 'afraid to commit' thing that women always do. So I came out and told her that I crossdress. She responded with a 'I have to think about that', and I didn't hear from her for couple of days. I just assumed that she was just another woman that finds it a turn off, and that she didn't see any reason to continue the discussion. I was wrong, sort of; she did get back to me. No, I was partially right; she DID find it a huge turn off. But she made an important point. It's not exactly harmless. We just refuse to acknowledge who it's harming. It's harming US. If it gets in the way of the love we want, the woman we want in our lives, then it's harming US. We can deny it, and we'll justify it until we're blue in the face. But it eventually comes down to this, and I quote: "Do you want the woman, or do you want the dress? Because that's your choice. It may not seem like a fair choice, but life usually isn't fair, it certainly hasn't been to me. So it's really up to you. You're the one who's deciding that you want to spend the rest of your life in limbo like this. It's not us. It's you. You're only hurting yourself." So, harmless behavior? Maybe not.

[Amy Fakley]

Oh horse pucky.
Let me rephrase that "do you want this specific woman or the dress?"

So you are harming yourself (according to her) because you are being yourself and she finds that a turnoff, and you'd just be sooo mch better off with her. Lack of her in your life (on account of her not liking you) == self harm, in other words?

Yeah. I'd take a pass on that. That's some stunning level of conceit right there.

[MissVirginia-Mae]

Lexi,
I would rather take the dress than someone who couldnt understand or deal with it.
I dont think you lost out on anything there at least

Virginia

[Sarah Louise]

In some cases this is obviously true. Many find it gets in the way of building a relationship. Not always of course. Fortunately, I have the woman and the dress. The two don't meet, but they know and acknowledge each other and so far, it works for me. I'm happy with this arrangement and think I'm lucky.

(Ok, the dress doesn't acknowledge my wife or indeed know her, but you know what I mean.)

[Liz57]

My question to you is, "would you consider it harmless to yourself if you stopped crossdressering?"

[Tracii G]

Just one persons opinion here but she sounds conceited.

[AllieSF]

Interesting point of view. Yes, our selection process for many things may in the end bring some negative side effects. I want to play golf on Saturday morning. Well, it is more expensive on the weekend than during the week. It is more crowded meaning that those 18 holes may take close to 5 hours, plus driving to and from plus maybe lunch or a quick drink after. It also takes 5 plus hours away from our weekend home time with family if we are in a relationship. It may also cause us to be tired and maybe not the life of the party for some special event planned after the golf.

Take it to dating. I am a visual person so what someone looks like, height, weight, length of hair, posture, face, figure and smile all come into play initially. Then I need to get to know the person inside and see if we click somehow by complimenting each other and also bringing interesting differences to the game. So, by being visual in my initial screening, I may actually screen out a lot of wonderful people too early from the selection process. However, just like food, music, art and women's looks and personalities we are attracted to what we are attracted to, so maybe our selection process may seem flawed to some, but to us it is not. Yes, it may take longer to find "the" one for us and for them, but that is what we need to understand and accept, or change our selection process.

So, in summary, a lot of our decisions major and minor can harm us by precluding better results based on a different filtering process. We accept and/or modify that process over our lives and live with the consequences of our decisions. If we crossdress we should know that that in itself automatically limits our attractiveness to potential partners. It does not make it impossible, it just makes it harder. I do not think that it harms us. More like it handicaps us in certain situations and that is different. Also, as has been pointed out by many here, and I agree, that crossdressing is not something that is easy to stop permanently with no negative repercussions to ourselves, like continual desires to dress, frustrations when we can't, irritable personality, and so on. That harms us and also potentially those around us.

Whether we will be in limbo the rest of our lives depends on many things, some under our control and others that are not. If society in general, including the lady who responded to you, would grow up and realize that what we do is not bad, then maybe we would not have to enter into that limbo. Maybe, the harm is being done to us because of our need to crossdress by those who refuse to try to understand, tolerate and accept it as something that happens in life and that can be successfully incorporated into others' lives too. All food for thought!

[amy1989]

Personaly, I think I'd be better off with a dress than with someone who'd ask that. Maybe that will change one day maybe it won't.

[PaulaQ]

But she made an important point. It's not exactly harmless. We just refuse to acknowledge who it's harming. It's harming US. If it gets in the way of the love we want, the woman we want in our lives, then it's harming US. We can deny it, and we'll justify it until we're blue in the face. But it eventually comes down to this, and I quote: "Do you want the woman, or do you want the dress? Because that's your choice. It may not seem like a fair choice, but life usually isn't fair, it certainly hasn't been to me. So it's really up to you. You're the one who's deciding that you want to spend the rest of your life in limbo like this. It's not us. It's you. You're only hurting yourself." So, harmless behavior? Maybe not.

What she said is said from the perspective of a victim of an abusive society. "I get kicked around and abused, so why should you expect better?" That's what she is basically saying. The real question for her is "why does she simply accept, as a given, the abusive things that happen to her in her life?" Victims of abuse often go on to perpetrate it against others. And mark my words - what she told you was abusive. She invalidated you by telling you "there is something WRONG with you!"

There are a lot of cisgender people who will tell you that your CDing harms them in some way. The thing is - it doesn't - or if it does, it is harm from OTHER people reacting negatively to it. The problem is that gender variant people are different, and we live in a society that declares people who are different to be a "problem." "Oh, you're one of THOSE."

The thing is: there is nothing wrong with you! The problem is people like her! There is something terribly wrong with her!

The only thing wrong or harmful about crossdressing and other gender variant behavior is that society freaks out over it, and mistreats us because of it. THEY are the ones causing the problem, not us.

There is nothing wrong with any of you. They are the ones with the problem, not us. There's just a lot more of them than us. Nevertheless, they are enormously cruel, self-centered, and ultimately, helping perpetuate abuses that harm them as well. They want you to stop being who you are because it makes them "uncomfortable." Never mind how miserable it makes you - they don't care! They don't. Indeed, they assume being who you are is a choice. Most of us here will attest that if we had a choice, we sure as hell wouldn't have picked "trans!"

I hope that everyone here can get past shame that people like the woman in this thread dump on you. It is not your fault for being who you are, and doing what you do. It's their fault, for mistreating you because of it.

[Jaylyn]

Many good points thrown out here. Here's my take on the cross dressing. I know I can stop at anytime. Yes I would miss it. I love my wife and she accepts Jaylyn, she accepts Jay the man she married also. She knows now that sometimes I need Jaylyn to come visit. I know I also need to be most of the time the man she married. My CD became easier after all the kids were gone and my wife lets Jaylyn come see her more. We agreed it didn't hurt our relationship. I agreed to fulfill my vows to the person I love and adore, the one I want to spend the rest of my life with, the one I found that completed my male half for me and the one that i wanted to be the mother of my kids. I give and take in our marriage. She gives and takes in our marriage. We talk and have heart to heart conversations regularly as we have had from the start. Is she my slave or puppet on a string? No Am I her king and she obeys all the time? No we give and take. We do have one thing though in that we love each other. Love is just what we do which is we see the best and worst in each other but we always talk about what is bothering us.
The woman you talked to that was so rude I bet is a very disturbed, lonely person that may or may not have had a bad experience with males. What she said shows more about why I wouldn't want to date her if I were in the market. I know there are lots of fish in the sea and one just has to keep fishing, being yourself, and you'll eventually find that keeper. You'll know it almost when you meet. Love is unconditional and love happens when we don't expect it. Keep looking, keep being yourself, doing what your doing and being honest with those you meet. You be the one upfront and let them see what they are getting and love will come your way one day. I know because I was pretty hard to tame, but love brought me to my knees. I wouldn't trade what I got for a million dollars or a million dresses.

[mikayla1964]

hmmm pof has forums . I have never seen them and I have 2 profiles on there a male one and a female one..

[grace7777]

The thing that is most harmful is to deny who one is. I would never want anything to do with that women. No person is worth having to change who you truly are.

[Yoshisaur]

Well that argument can be made about anything though, my sister tells me all the time it's harmful that I spend too much time on my computer . If you ask me I think that if a partner you just met is forcing you to decide between them or changing who you are then that might not be the right person for you. I've seen plenty of stories on here about girls who have found partners who are accepting or even encouraging of their CDing or are in DADT situations, so I think it doesn't need to be a choice you can have both.

[Ressie]

Crossdressing doesn't keep one from finding love; It just makes it more of a challenge. But nothing is totally harmless IMO. I've hurt my feet from wearing heels for example…and be careful not to over-tighten that corset!

and this website is called plenty of fish? That girl is only one out of many schools

[Amy Lynn3]

I'll take the dress over her.

[Teresa]

Lexi,
It doesn't harm all women, some don't have a problem with CDing, some love their partners enough to see beyond it , the problem comes if there's a need to transition, then some real soul searching must be done.
My CDing has harmed me more than anyone else before I came to terms with it, living most of my life in solitary confinement with it, and almost ending my life through lack of acceptance .
Women who have that attitude need to open their minds , very few of us do it simply because we want to be pretty little things with a cute bow in our hair, and to hell with what anyone else thinks.
I've said this before but women will never fully understand because they don't have the dual trait in their brains, they can only realise how difficult it is for most men to overcome the stigma, shame and guilt that society inflicts on us because it's not normal behaviour for a man. The truth is it's normal behaviour if you happened to be wired that way !

I came very close to choosing the dress over my wife, put in those terms it just makes me look selfish, I only wish it was as easy as that ! Life is just a series of compromises which we all have to accept to get through it .

[SabrinaEmily]

"Do you want the woman, or do you want the dress?"

Do you want to be who you are, or do you want to be with someone who hates who you are?

[LelaK]

So we can make a bargain: If they'll never wear pants, we'll never wear a dress [except in private].

[Pat]

I decline to "justify it 'til I'm blue in the face" -- it's just not a good look for me. People will believe what they want to believe, but my experience is that crossdressing has brought me peace, solace and comfort. I (personally) don't believe that crossdressing harms me. I do believe that social unacceptance (OK, not really a word) of crossdressing has demonstrably caused harm in anxiety, suicide rates, divorces, etc.

If you want to believe what she said, go ahead. It can be a personal truth for you. I don't buy it.

[sherri]

Given the society and culture in which most of us live, there absolutely is a trade-off, or several, in crossdressing. For those of us who keep it relatively private I think it's pretty much just that, a trade-off or two rather than actual harm as I think of the term. Sure, we'd all like to have everything, a good career, a loving companion, accepting friends AND CDing all tied up in a neat little pink bow, but the reality is we have to make choices, having one thing at the cost of another. Does that inflict harm? Maybe some frustration, etc., but no real harm. It's when we succumb to the pink fog and try to break down the barriers and have it all that harm enters the equation. OBVIOUSLY I'M PAINTING WITH A BROAD BRUSH here and there are gurls who manage to pull it off, I guess, but they're rare as hen's teeth.

[Dee Baker]

What she said is said from the perspective of a victim of an abusive society. "I get kicked around and abused, so why should you expect better?" That's what she is basically saying. The real question for her is "why does she simply accept, as a given, the abusive things that happen to her in her life?" Victims of abuse often go on to perpetrate it against others. And mark my words - what she told you was abusive. She invalidated you by telling you "there is something WRONG with you!"

There are a lot of cisgender people who will tell you that your CDing harms them in some way. The thing is - it doesn't - or if it does, it is harm from OTHER people reacting negatively to it. The problem is that gender variant people are different, and we live in a society that declares people who are different to be a "problem." "Oh, you're one of THOSE."

The thing is: there is nothing wrong with you! The problem is people like her! There is something terribly wrong with her!

The only thing wrong or harmful about crossdressing and other gender variant behavior is that society freaks out over it, and mistreats us because of it. THEY are the ones causing the problem, not us.

There is nothing wrong with any of you. They are the ones with the problem, not us. There's just a lot more of them than us. Nevertheless, they are enormously cruel, self-centered, and ultimately, helping perpetuate abuses that harm them as well. They want you to stop being who you are because it makes them "uncomfortable." Never mind how miserable it makes you - they don't care! They don't. Indeed, they assume being who you are is a choice. Most of us here will attest that if we had a choice, we sure as hell wouldn't have picked "trans!"

I hope that everyone here can get past shame that people like the woman in this thread dump on you. It is not your fault for being who you are, and doing what you do. It's their fault, for mistreating you because of it.

(Like) Really like your response Paula!

[Tracii G]

I would have politely said well you sound like a bitch so I don't need your opinion LOL

[Alice Torn]

SM, I have been on POF off and on, when it was free. but i had no successes, never met anyone. At 62 this May, I have had only one real date in six years, and it went no where. The woman answered my last phone call, with, no hello, but just this, "do not call me when i am watching Criminal Minds! Click." I am at the point, where i may just forget about ever dating again. I can't handle the stress. I know of some guys who find mates from the Philippines, and I have heard that they are less prone to condemn Cding. I don't know. Jaylyn, You are fortunate to have found love , and a wife who will compromise. I have found that GG's have a hard time respecting non dressing men, but a very, very hard time respecting CD men. Maybe it is wisest to be alone. It does get lonely doing so much alone, but, may be better than tons of strife, arguing, and stress. I am older, and know that older GGs have a real problem with CDing in a man.

[Leslie Langford]

I agree with the others here. This woman is a master manipulator, and is using guilt and shame to try to get you to see the light and become "normal" so as to "fit in". Sure, and the urge to crossdress is a just choice that we can simply turn on and off at will - as if.

The "choice" she is recommending here is for you to supress an innate (and harmless) need just to please the rest of society and make you more attractive to her and other women, irregardless of the personal cost to you. Those of us here with unaccepting wives or SO's or who are in DADT relationships have tried exactly the same thing for the sake of everyone else's well-being and peace of mind, but at what personal cost in terms of our own mental health? If it were that easy, and if we were able to either supress or seamlessly integrate our need to crossdress into our "normal" lives without the expected repercussions, then for starters, there wouldn't even be a need for an anonymous forum such as this where we can find solace, support, and vindication for the way we are wired.

This woman falls into the classic pattern - and provides the fodder for stand-up comedians from time immemorial - of the old saw that men marry women in the hope that they will never change, whereas women marry men in the hope that they can mold them into their own image of the perfect man. Run - don't walk - away from this woman, and let her find some other "bad boy" whom she can reform to her liking.

Being a female, she likely has the inborn biological need to nurture. Why not ask her how she would respond if someone were to demand that she supress those primal urges just because they unilaterally found that to be detrimental to their relationship. I call it "equivalency", and I'm pretty sure I know the answer, so what gives her the right to expect anything different from you?

Some things are deal-breakers, and if some women simply can't get past the thought of their partner crossdressing, then better to let them move on and find happiness elsewhere. There is a reason why this website is called Plenty of Fish...you just need to keep on fishing and forget about "the one that got away".

[docrobbysherry]

As far as I'm concerned, anyway.

I tried dating in my 60's. The attractive women were so wrapped up in baggage I just couldn't fite thru it! Those that weren't attractive? Without sex, I'm just not interested. After all, I had my avatar waiting for me at home.

In fact, my last effort was visiting a Russian woman about 8 years ago to see if it could work between us. I couldn't. I made my choice rite after I came home!

Came out of the closet online here and Sherry was born!:brolleyes: