Why so many fights here?

[flatlander_48]

You're focusing on the wrong parts of the problem, and arguably proving my point for me. This obsession with "being challenged" is pointless, and so not the problem.

Then you missed the point. We are perceived as one group by society at large, yet we continue to resist that notion. Certainly we are not interchangeable and many of our interests are different. But, because we do not have a unified voice, I think at best we're holding station and may even be losing a touch here and there. Sadly, that is the price of incoherence.

When a CD gets challenged too much and gets uncomfortable, they get to go home, wash up, and go do their business as a man. Maybe they decide not to go out again. Maybe they decide that they'll only go to the "easy places" when "dressed". Maybe they only go out at night where the harsh light of the sun doesn't reveal all of their flaws.

They have the luxury of hiding, and yes, it is a luxury. CDs can go back to a privileged male identity any time they want. CDs have the luxury of getting to have fun "as a woman" (or so they think), but never have to deal with the actual reality of living as one.

Careful, that's perilously close to this idea of Heirarchy. Further, remember that in many cases, Crossdressers are attempting to juggle at least 2 lives. SS-DD.

Subtly explains why there are fights here...we make distinctions.

No, look at it this way. We allow ourselves to use difference as a wedge instead of appreciating it, embracing it and letting it bring us together. Movements go forward on the collective resolve of the participants. As long as we are fractured, there will be no collective resolve. That's the simple truth of it.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

Then you missed the point. We are perceived as one group by society at large, yet we continue to resist that notion. Certainly we are not interchangeable and many of our interests are different. But, because we do not have a unified voice, I think at best we're holding station and may even be losing a touch here and there. Sadly, that is the price of incoherence.

I don't care how we're perceived right now, because fixing any of this require reshaping the public perception, one way or another. That said, I'm perfectly willing to participate in a unified voice. I will scream at the top my lungs with all of you that all trans people, regardless of their particular gender identity, deserve more respect and understanding, and should be protected from discrimination in employment, housing, public accommodations, etc.

However, giving males who identify as Men access to the women's room is not preventing discrimination. It's entitling men to yet another space occupied by women. As much as I hate to agree with TERFs ever, it is the height of male privilege to demand access to the women's room while simultaneously declaring, defending, and realizing all the benefits of your manhood. I personally believe that the women's room should be for women, but my minimum requirement for being able to advocate for someone having a right to be in the women's restroom is that they are not a man.

As I've said elsewhere, if crossdressers want me to advocate for them having the RIGHT to be in there, then they will need to explain to me (and their wives, doctors, etc.) that they aren't men.

Careful, that's perilously close to this idea of Heirarchy. Further, remember that in many cases, Crossdressers are attempting to juggle at least 2 lives. SS-DD.

Okay? So do pre-full-time transitioning women. They also deal with the added hurdles of dealing with the feminizing effects of hormones in public before going full-time, and the fact that they are generally (somewhat by definition) dealing with what is often much worse internal conflict when having to present as male (often getting substantially worse in the lead-up to full-time). Ultimately though, they're women, while the CDs are generally (by their own self-identification) men.

It's not a hierarchical thing. I'm not trying to compare suffering. I feel terrible for anybody who's suffering. I'm talking about significant differences in lived experience that make it silly to treat them as the same.

[Georgette_USA]

However, giving males who identify as Men access to the women's room is not preventing discrimination. It's entitling men to yet another space occupied by women. As much as I hate to agree with TERFs ever, it is the height of male privilege to demand access to the women's room while simultaneously declaring, defending, and realizing all the benefits of your manhood. I personally believe that the women's room should be for women, but my minimum requirement for being able to advocate for someone having a right to be in the women's restroom is that they are not a man.

As I've said elsewhere, if crossdressers want me to advocate for them having the RIGHT to be in there, then they will need to explain to me (and their wives, doctors, etc.) that they aren't men.

Okay? So do pre-full-time transitioning women. They also deal with the added hurdles of dealing with the feminizing effects of hormones in public before going full-time, and the fact that they are generally (somewhat by definition) dealing with what is often much worse internal conflict when having to present as male (often getting substantially worse in the lead-up to full-time). Ultimately though, they're women, while the CDs are generally (by their own self-identification) men.

Not to promote any warfare here.

I come from an age where there was NO legal right to identify as a female/woman without SRS. After my name change, I changed my work ID and security ID, no gender marking on those, and needed them for work to transition. Everything else had to wait for my surgery at least 10 months. I had to fight with HR on the legal right to transition and work as a female, even accepted their suggestion of using the ladies rooms on upper parts of the building where I was not as well known until after SRS. Felt lucky that I didn't lose my job. Because of all this I may have held onto the belief of that requirement, but have come to accept changes.

We have come a long way from that. Many TG/TS can now change many legal documents for gender identifiers. Some states still do not allow that. It does help the many with documentation while transitioning. It is not a requirement to even have SRS at any time. Legal name change was never a problem, but would look weird to authorities without the gender change.

I think what you are saying is for the non-transition (CD or other types) of people to actually get some kind of documentation of GID/GD.

[Amanda M]

There are fights on here because some members are so convinced of their superiority to poor cds. When I am dressed as identify as female, and it is my choice to do so.

Would those of who object to that please read - and re-read - the title of this forum?

[flatlander_48]

However, giving males who identify as Men access to the women's room is not preventing discrimination. It's entitling men to yet another space occupied by women. As much as I hate to agree with TERFs ever, it is the height of male privilege to demand access to the women's room while simultaneously declaring, defending, and realizing all the benefits of your manhood. I personally believe that the women's room should be for women, but my minimum requirement for being able to advocate for someone having a right to be in the women's restroom is that they are not a man.

Obviously we spend a lot of time with this issue as it was basically thrust upon us. However, there are other things going on such as being able to deal with gender-related issues within employer medical coverage, GENDA legislation, violence, severe unemployment/underemployment, etc. Restroom wars has the effect of causing us to be defocused, and that isn't good.

As I've said elsewhere, if crossdressers want me to advocate for them having the RIGHT to be in there, then they will need to explain to me (and their wives, doctors, etc.) that they aren't men.

Remember that there are really 3 groups, but you haven't mentioned the 3rd. What do you think about people in the middle who are not transitioning? How do you perceive their needs? How do they fit into all of this?

It's not a hierarchical thing. I'm not trying to compare suffering. I feel terrible for anybody who's suffering. I'm talking about significant differences in lived experience that make it silly to treat them as the same.

It's not about treating everyone the same. It is about allowing difference to exist. If we were to attempt to treat everyone the same, it says that we are unwilling to put effort into understanding those differences. In effect, it is the ultimate form of insult because it says I don't value you enough to want to understand. So, when someone says "I treat everyone the same.", it is a cop out and indicates a very lazy and insensitive way of existence.

DeeAnn

[AllisonS]

The last few posts make me wonder if part of the fighting isn't about the gender binary system. Some people seem to be very invested in that. Others of us believe that dichotomy is artificial and oppressive. Its a fundamental difference in worldview that will inevitably lead to differing opinions about social and moral issues, including things as simple as going to the bathroom. A difference in views that deep is probably not going to be resolved in a medium as sterile as an online forum. The best you could hope for is to prevent that difference from interfering with other matters people would like to discuss, including matters that fundamentally conflict with the gender binary system.

[BillieAnneJean]

The nastiness may be a general trend in the USA for the population to be less kind and civilized than years ago. Yes I know we are no longer doing heinous things we used to do. But the general civility isn't as nice as it used to be. You'd a thunk that on a mutual interest forum like this that we would see a bit more compassion but apparently not. I do know some people, myself included, tend to post less because we get tired of the nastiness. I have received PMs from some who became disenchanted with the nastiness on this forum, ALTHOUGH it is really NOT a symptom of this forum but of society in general.

[JeanetteX]

Thanks Billie, its good to read that you and I share the exact same opinion and have the same experiences

[BillieAnneJean]

And I want to make it perfectly clear that I feel VERY FORTUNATE that this forum is operating. I feel that the admins do a great job, not perfect, but who is. Well maybe one of them.

[JeanetteX]

Totally agreed!!!

[mykell]

after being in and reading lots of threads of that nature i recently started a thread about being a trans ally, it was with hope that we could all see the positive that we ALL can contribute for the greater good.

not all can be card carrying flag waving supporters but little things add up, someone who admits that a purchase is indeed for themselves, those who go out and answer questions as they are fielded, simple little things that are done daily by thy group....they add up....it was a short lived thread, 4 maybe five reply's, wasnt expecting it to be viral but thought it would garner interest......the negativity pulls interest :facepalm: passion, look at the stuff on online news stories, the ones with the most comments are not rainbows and lollypops......... bitterness, contention :argue:, hate , sells ....... just easier to be that way behind the keyboards

[Nadine Spirit]

The nastiness may be a general trend in the USA for the population to be less kind and civilized than years ago.

A not so short internet search turns up lots of sites that support this thought. But they are all opinion based boards, like this one. It's actually kind of tough to find one that has some references to articles and studies instead of just opinions; here is one of them:

http://thecabbagechronicle.com/opini...t-think-it-is/

I do think this one is interesting also:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._peaceful.html


It is not true that the world today is a worse place. Do some research. The facts are there if you are looking for them. If all you want are other's opinions that will help support your own, those are there as well. But opinions are not facts.

How about this idea folks - humanity is a spectrum, and because we are not all the same, we will disagree on occasion.

[DanielleLee]

Disagreement is natural. The issue however is that for whatever reason there are some on this forum (to say nothing of society) who think that civility, manners or couth is something that is old fashioned and can be ignored... E.g. "call it like they see it". It's very possible to be polite and think someone is full of s**t. For example:

newandpurtyluvstoCD: I think we have too much infighting amongst ourselves. Can't we be friendlier?
oldhatgetoffmyvanitycd response 1: What kinda nonsense is this rainbows and unicorn friends bulls**t? Get your head out of your a** !
oldhatgetoffmyvanitycd response 2: That's an interesting train of thought... but the Mods are on top of any infighting.
Lorileah response: So help me... if anyone steps a half inch out of line on this thread... I swear by God and sonny Jesus you will all visit the infirmary

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Zooey]

Remember that there are really 3 groups, but you haven't mentioned the 3rd. What do you think about people in the middle who are not transitioning? How do you perceive their needs? How do they fit into all of this?

Currently bathrooms recognize two genders, which feels limiting to you, and I can understand why. I believe in a shift towards gender neutral bathroom availability, because IMO if you are not a man and not a woman, then what we're highlighting is a problem with recognition. You need a bathroom that recognizes your identity - you do not need access to women's spaces. I don't think we can build infinite bathrooms to account for all the possible genders, so I support moves towards the eventual elimination of gender segregated bathrooms. That's very different from advocating that men and non-women should necessarily have access to women's spaces.

It's not about treating everyone the same. It is about allowing difference to exist. If we were to attempt to treat everyone the same, it says that we are unwilling to put effort into understanding those differences. In effect, it is the ultimate form of insult because it says I don't value you enough to want to understand. So, when someone says "I treat everyone the same.", it is a cop out and indicates a very lazy and insensitive way of existence.

Emphasis added. I have 2 questions...

1) In what way am I not allowing difference to exist? I've been suggesting that we acknowledge our differences, rather than try to paper over them.
2) I'm very confused by this passage, because I feel like you're agreeing with me here and yet clearly you deeply disagree with me.

[Lorileah]

Yeah, we're done here. it has become redundant