"Are you a woman!"

[Jenniferathome]

...Maybe I should have carried my letter...you know just in case I needed to prove it.

I was advocating for a tattoo on the back to the neck, but that never got any traction...

...Until recently, I and most other women, would have assumed any male presenting as a female was transsexual. Obviously, I would have been wrong, but that would have been my assumption. ...

I think this is really important. I suspect that this is widely true across the planet. Cross dressing is really not top of mind for most people. And this gets back to the issue of who should be allowed to use what facility. ID's and pee police are ridiculous notions. Like it or not, the trans community is in the same boat as the cross dressing community on this issue.

[ReineD]

I don't think you can judge the frequency of fetish by the frequency of masturbation. Just because you didn't masturbate, doesn't mean that you didn't extract a sexual thrill from something. I think there are a number of stories related in the CD forum here that are describing exactly that. Whether masturbation occurred at some point or not, it's still a sexual experience.

Yes, I agree. There are degrees to fetish. Actually, a term I prefer to use is "sexual preference", or maybe just plain "preference". The word "fetish" has all kinds of negativity associated with it. Anyway, you see it, I see it, but some people have a stricter definition: "must masturbate each time else I do not consider myself a fetishist". No one can convince them that they dress for reasons other than gender dysphoria. They think that if they don't masturbate each time, then they must be gender dysphoric. But then they'll participate in threads about wanting to date a man or any number of other fantasy threads that pop up here regularly. Another brand of fantasy thread is enjoying stereotypical female behaviors while dressed, like cooking or cleaning, or wanting to be submissive or otherwise "typically" feminine in some way. :p

Getting back to the topic though, I also believe that transitioners should use the women's rooms and that male-identified and gender-variant/neutral-identified (this includes people who only feel they are women when dressed) should do their best to use single-user spaces, or do like my SO, use the women's bathrooms judiciously when there is no one else in them.

... and hopefully in the long run our society will stop thinking of bathrooms as gendered spaces and we will find ways for everyone to use the same space.

I just got back from Morocco which you all know is a country inhabited by mostly Muslim people, who do segregate the sexes far more than we do. But, guess what THEY do in bathrooms (the bathrooms that are not the more primitive hole-in-the-ground single user spaces). In the larger restaurants, they have a wide hallway with a row of rather large stalls on each side, each stall has a toilet and a small sink. There is an attendant on the premise to make sure that only one person goes into a stall at a time, and who goes in afterwards for a quick look and clean up if need be. Both men and women use the stalls as needed. Fancy that!

The places where the tour buses stop do tend to have "women" and "men" spaces, but my impression was they do this mostly for tourists.

[Lana Mae]

ChristianK,
Do not feel bad! A gg here in nc was accosted for being in the ladies' room. I am sure she passed!lol Hugs, Lana Mae

[Robin414]

I've been watching way too many hate videos on you tube lately and they're starting to have a real negative impact (yah, I'm sticking to Robot Chicken exclusively now). I've never experienced any negative response and have no reason to expect to based on my personal experience. Sure, I'll fight ya, but I'd much rather avoid ya or just smile politely and walk away from ya ☺

[susan54]

I feel the need again to put the case for the few on this site who do not identify as women or get a sexual kick out of it. I get a buzz out of it in the same way someone hitting a good golf shot would. I do not wear make up (OK, sometimes lipstick) or a wig at home and go out less than I used to. Going out is like going on stage - there is a thrill but it is not a sexual one and it is refreshingly different to feel the breeze on your legs. These clothes thrill many women but not in a sexual way - why not some men? I look in the mirror and think "damn I look good" and a few women have said I look better in a dress than I do in male clothes. I agree that some CDs seem to get some kick out of going to the Ladies. Getting a thrill out of going to a toilet seems a bit weird to me. I have used a ladies, but only when I had to and just a handful of times in hundreds of trips out. Give us mere crossdressers a break. Some of us really are not trans or fetishistic.

[ReineD]

I've been watching way too many hate videos on you tube lately and they're starting to have a real negative impact

Haven't you noticed that people feel much more motivated to express negative reactions than neutral ones?

The millions of people who are neutral about TGs aren't going to post long rants about being neutral. :p But the small percentage who object strongly do feel motivated to do so because of their outrage and so the rest of us get the impression these videos reflect society's overall reactions.

They do not.

there is a thrill but it is not a sexual one and it is refreshingly different to feel the breeze on your legs.

Yes, a lot of members here feel like you do. It is thrilling, but not in a sexual way. But still, it is still a thrill.

These clothes thrill many women but not in a sexual way

Do we get a thrill out of wearing nice clothes? I wouldn't put it that way at all. We may dress-up for a variety of reasons ... in some circumstances it is to attract a mate (sexy clothes), in others to impress a boss (showing how professional we are), in others it might be to show our economic status (expensive designer fashions), and many times it is simply to conform to the media's benchmark for beauty, based on all the ads, catalogs, and other media we see. I suppose a lot of people (men and women) want to show themselves in the best light possible, appropriate to whichever situation they might be in. And certainly when we're alone or just going to the grocery store, we don't dress up. But do we feel a thrill when we put on a new outfit for whatever purpose? I don't think so. We may look in the mirror and feel good about looking nice for the event we are about to attend (just like my son recently ... he went to a wedding and was wearing a great suit that made him look so dapper and he felt good about the way he looked) ... but a thrill? No.

I'm wondering if the thrill you feel is more about the fact that you're wearing female clothes? Do you feel the same thrill when you're dressed nicely as a man?

[JulieC]

It can happen at any time even if we've had much success in the past. I feel very fortunate that the event did not turn into a huge confrontation, even though we're supposed to be protected in California. The question is, if the public is not aware of that, are we really protected?

Indeed it can happen. We must all realize that laws or no laws, there is NO protection. Hate based violence can happen anywhere, and laws will not protect you.

[susan54]

In reply to ReineD I think there ARE women who get a thrill out of clothes and shoes and the extreme ones overlap with the shopaholics. There are none of these women in my life but I read fashion columns and overhear conversations when shopping or sales assistants say things. I get no buzz from even the most feminine of women's trousers. Yes, I feel good when i am in a smart suit but this feel good is inferior to a knockout dress outfit. I compare this to the buzz an actor gets on stage playing Napoleon - great outfit and character but almost none of these actors think they ARE Napoleon. Skirts and dresses and putting outfits together based on these is FUN for some women and some men. Some men get fun playing with toy trains and spend a fortune on a new locomotive they have drooled over for weeks. I really don't see why there is a reluctance to accept the absence of arousal with cross dressing. Fun, comfortable and looking good - what's not to like? If the bra and heels (indoors) are uncomfortable you are wearing the wrong ones. I concede that heels are uncomfortable outside all day but even there, there are women who choose to wear nothing but heels. Time after time women say they dress for themselves and they spend a LOT more on their outfits than men. Maybe they are having fun too.

[Zooey]

I think the feelings that you are trying to equate here are rather different.

I can understand why you would want to try to make them out as equivalent, but I can assure you... They're not.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I am very saddened by this thread.

Ben Franklin purportedly said, "We all need to hang together, or surely we will all hang separately.

This thread is marking a line in the sand (or maybe several lines) separating CDs from TS.

If you really want to split hairs on the "bathroom bills", may we should divide the pre-op TS from the post-op TS from the middle way from the CD from the fetishist CD. If we choose to divide ourselves into so many small pieces, none of use will get any bathroom freedom, except maybe the post-op TS who "pass". I think that this is an important fight, and a fight that we can and should win. However if I start to think that the TSs want to win this fight without including all the other sub-groups, I'll stop my support of TSs in women's bathrooms.

So, think about making some compromises for unity, the same way that many of us make compromises within our marriages.

Division and infighting on this issue may get some of us what we want and what we need, but may leave many of us behind.

I think that even in NC, TS can use women's bathrooms provided the gender marker is changed on the birth certificate. Is that really enough for us?

[Zooey]

This thread is marking a line in the sand (or maybe several lines) separating CDs from TS.

Umm, yes. Yes it is. At least for me, the only division I'm interested in (for the purposes of gendered spaces) is between women and not women, and most importantly men. Anybody whose legal identity is "F" needs to have consistent legal treatment as a woman. Anybody who doesn't, well, doesn't.

The debate over bathrooms should be over whether they should be gendered at all, not over whether men should be allowed into the ladies room.

[flatlander_48]

The very notion of a protected class is to give special protections to an otherwise embattled minority group.

No, it was to insure that the groups involved received the SAME rights and privileges as everyone else. Problem being that if your group was not mentioned in the constitution, there was no automatic assumption that those rights and privileges applied.

The debate over bathrooms

Only there was no debate until someone saw the possibility for political gain in it.

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

If you really want to split hairs on the "bathroom bills", may we should divide the pre-op TS from the post-op TS from the middle way from the CD from the fetishist CD. If we choose to divide ourselves into so many small pieces, none of use will get any bathroom freedom, except maybe the post-op TS who "pass". I think that this is an important fight, and a fight that we can and should win. However if I start to think that the TSs want to win this fight without including all the other sub-groups, I'll stop my support of TSs in women's bathrooms.

Not all of us feel that way Steffi. The goal of the people who don't like us is our eradication. They won't succeed - they are too dumb to understand we're born this way. But they'll certainly try if given the chance in ways nightmarish for us all.

[ReineD]

If you really want to split hairs on the "bathroom bills", may we should divide the pre-op TS from the post-op TS from the middle way from the CD from the fetishist CD.

The issue of pre-op vs post-op shouldn't even come up in gendered spaces (except for the less-essential spaces where everyone is naked ... but see the note below).

Only about 25%-30% of MtFs and 5% of FtM transitioners (people who live full time in their target genders) get SRS.

The issue is rather, if a MtF is living full time in her target gender and she wishes to be perceived by everyone as her target gender. In other words, if her female gender identity is unchanging and she has backed that up by having transitioned (living full time), then she should be allowed in the same places as natal females, who also are full time and who also wish to be perceived by everyone all the time as women.

Note: The only exception to that are facilities where people get naked (changing rooms, saunas, etc) where a TS has not had SRS. I don't know how to resolve this other than provide a privacy area for the TS? I don't think that MtF TSs who have not had surgery would expect there would be no issues among the natal females, if they were naked among other naked women? But, saunas aren't essential to living, and neither are public changing rooms. So they can be avoided ... or, arrangements can be made with the facility in question to provide a private space if, for example, a transwoman wishes to swim on a regular basis at her local public pool and she still has male genitalia. However, the question of spaces where everyone is naked may be a discussion for a separate thread?

[flatlander_48]

Unfortunately the way it is usually discussed, all situations are mentioned together. However, the reality is, as you mention, quite different.

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

Reine, very true. Places where one may expect to be seen, at least in "this" society (the Victorian based type) and which are not essential for normal living are far more difficult to say "Hey everyone should get to use this". However, this essentially has been addressed in the US 50 years ago. No separate but equal facilities are allowed. Title IX states that if there aren't equal opportunities for both genders, then the gender can participate in the opposite gender's activity. (using Title IX in the sports connotation which is where I am familiar). We had this in college. There was a gap between levels of competition between women's volleyball. We had (two different times) GGs on our men's team (and amazingly we won the school championship both years). Now in a twist here, both times we were challenged by fraternities as to being able to have a woman (obviously, having a woman gave us the advantage). Both times Title IX was invoked. No man tried to make the women's intercollegiate team then but IF they had, they would have had to have been allowed to play.

Now the herring in all this. IF a TS has not transitioned surgically, technically they have done any other requirement, it would be a big kerfuffle but technically, tat person would be allowed to use PUBLIC facilities (i.e. changing rooms in community lockers that are state or county and especially Federal). Of course there would be police and media and a big blow up, which very few TSs would want, so we stay away. Personally I am looking forward to steam rooms (there are towels) and athletic activities and yes swimming pools (or springs) now. But I still have a huge "tell". I need to keep a wig or some head cover at all times for those. I expect somewhere along the line to be called out. Thus I have delayed. I think, honestly, a pre-op would have trouble. Even this post-op expects it

[Zooey]

The only exception to that are facilities where people get naked (changing rooms, saunas, etc) where a TS has not had SRS. I don't know how to resolve this other than provide a privacy area for the TS? I don't think that MtF TSs who have not had surgery would expect there would be no issues among the natal females, if they were naked among other naked women?

I don't know any actually transitioned trans women who are terribly interested in having other people see genitals they don't feel very good about. On the rare occasions where I use the gym at work, I change in a bathroom stall. We have private showers, but I tend to avoid them anyway, because I'M not comfortable with showing my body to people in its current state. When covered with a towel, I'm more or less indistinguishable from any other mid-30's kinda out of shape women in there. :|

[ReineD]

Zooey, this makes perfect sense to me.

(but you forgot to put a "don't" between "they" and "feel" in your first sentence) fixed.

[Pat]

Note: The only exception to that are facilities where people get naked (changing rooms, saunas, etc) where a TS has not had SRS. I don't know how to resolve this other than provide a privacy area for the TS?

It seems like the best result would come from providing a privacy area for everyone. If everyone uses little cabana-style changing closets then nobody feels singled out.

BUT this is one of those issues where I think we're (foolishly) taking the bait from the haters. If I was in a woman's changing room with male genitals I wouldn't want to be showing them. I'd take all kinds of evasive action to never be seen with my bottoms off and the people I know are pretty much all the same way. I'm guessing FtM folks would feel the same way in a male changing room. It's great to make contingency plans for some theoretical case, but my sense is real trans people have some inbuilt desire to avoid the scenario that's being painted.

[ChristinaK]

You ladies have taken this so.far it's funny.

It will never be possible to establish a man's motive for visiting the Ladies Room.

Carry a card, rediculous. To me, if a dude is dressed as a woman, he goes unisex if available.

If not, they don't really have a choice but to use the Ladies Room.

What does the law need to say? Nothing. We've been doing this for a long time and it just hasn't been an issue. Too bad it's been made an issue. I feel very confident that 5he woman that addressed me only did so because it's been made an issue.

The law is not going to change people's minds. That will take generations, if at all. The issue is much different than racial issues, it gets down to a person's basic beliefs about safety and maintaining gender differences.

[ReineD]

In reply to ReineD I think there ARE women who get a thrill out of clothes and shoes and the extreme ones overlap with the shopaholics. There are none of these women in my life but I read fashion columns and overhear conversations when shopping or sales assistants say things.

I beg to disagree. I'm not sure how you identify (TG, CD, or male), but you are speaking from one of those points of view. And you have put your own spin on the things you have read or heard, or you've read something designed as click-bait and taken it to be the norm.

Natal women most definitely do not get thrills out of clothing and shoes in the same way as a CDer who says s/he feels a thrill by dressing up in a pretty dress but not in a dashing man's suit. One, we are not dressing in a gender different than who we are. Two, yes there are shopaholics who get thrills out of accumulating stuff, and there are most definitely women who get a thrill from having scored a great bargain whether this is clothing, shoes, household goods, or a gift for someone (I am one of these ) but this has nothing to do with the very special thrill that comes from wearing a dress or presenting as a woman for CDers.

You may not define the benefit you derive from the CDing as a thrill and this is perfectly OK. You may instead define it as relaxing, or contributing to your overall sense of well-being somehow and it may even be necessary for you to dress occasionally for your mental health. There are lots of ways to define that special feeling that CDers experience, that natal females do not experience, when a CDer is wearing cross-gender clothing. But it is not the same.

If I was in a woman's changing room with male genitals I wouldn't want to be showing them. I'd take all kinds of evasive action to never be seen with my bottoms off and the people I know are pretty much all the same way.

Exactly. I just mentioned it in passing to be thorough and instead suggested a different thread if anyone wanted to debate the issue.

[ChristinaK]

Also, it seems that there is a debate about who is a fetishist and who is TG. Seems to me that both are CDers and the motivation is irrelevant. Both flavors should be welcomed here.

If a guy gets a thrill in the Ladies Room, big deal, unless he bothers the women there. It's not me, but I'm just saying.

If he does present a problem there, he's probably breaking a law.

[Zooey]

...and yet, for many women who deal with (and have been dealing with) inappropriate kinds of attention from men far too often (and far more often than you probably think), it's not simply "no big deal". When you've been semi-routinely made to feel uncomfortable and objectified through inappropriate attention and objectification from men on the damn sidewalk on a sunny afternoon with tons of people around, let me know and we can talk about whether or not I should suck it up and be more comfortable with being made to feel that way in the bathroom.

[Dana44]

I don't know why the bathroom issues are so out of wack on this site. The trans folks and us TG and CD people need to be on the same page. As crazy as it is, why do some of the trans people focus on us as we are fetish or something. There is not much difference between us and although our driver license say we are male does not mean that we are mean men. I am TG and it would be quite an issue for me not to go how I am presenting. The male bathroom is not typically for women and if you walk in as one that's how they will see it and may not end well. I would say wise up and lets get on the same page because we are all in this together.

[Zooey]

As crazy as it is, why do some of the trans people focus on us as we are fetish or something.

Oh, I dunnoooooo...

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...241280-Are-You
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...n-when-dressed
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...r-kissed-a-man
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...r-would-you-go
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...sing-in-summer
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...uot-do-you-get

To be fair, I only went back through threads that were active in the last week... Ahem. Should I keep looking? :rolleyes:

I don't think every CD here is a "perverted sex freak", but I absolutely think that there is an erotic/sexual undercurrent running beneath a very large percentage (feels like a majority, but I haven't counted) of the people and content here. It's certainly a large enough percentage to make me be unable to ignore it or advocate for it to my cis friends. That's especially true when some of the same people are the ones saying I should have no concerns.

Edited to add:

I am TG and it would be quite an issue for me not to go how I am presenting. The male bathroom is not typically for women and if you walk in as one that's how they will see it and may not end well. I would say wise up and lets get on the same page because we are all in this together.

I'm going to speak generally, because I know you say you're gender fluid, which is another can of worms. You have a bathroom safety issue, not a being a woman issue. Those are two VERY different issues.

IMO, the best path forward for addressing the safety issue for you (and many others here) is to de-gender bathrooms - which I support - not to declare a free-for-all on the ladies room as it currently exists.