Sadly it's becoming increasingly common to teach and encourage young people, children in particular into believing that words do hurt. Instead of the classic and sound "words will never hurt me" attitude, everything is fast becoming a politically correct safe zone full of people who are highly unstable and easily offended. It's ridiculous.Originally Posted by Roberta Lynn
It's not becoming alexa,
I object to the word "privilege" being brought into this as it is WAY over used these days. I don't think anyone here feels they are privileged save maybe a certain few.
Last edited by Lorileah; 07-17-2016 at 01:17 PM. Reason: don't challenge or second guess why the moderators are letting this go on
Flip Flops were made for Beaches & Bath Houses, We have neither in 2017. Lose the flip flops!
I have to agree Joanne, and I'm with you on the whole privilege thing too. Just thinking about these societal trends or whatever they should be called drains me.
Well, include me in the 'certain few' because there is no question that I have experienced privilege as a white man and further privilege as a white woman in a society that seems to draw a hard line between trans women of color and the rest of us.
As a white man I progressed through the ranks of a construction career much quicker than I would have if I had been black. I know this because I left many black and hispanic friends behind in the field as I moved into management. Was I better than them? I'd like to think so, but I don't know that to be the case. There must have been non-white candidates that were at least equally as good right? In my current position there is ONE black Project Manager in a staff of about 30 of us. A few Asian, and about half women, but I don't expect to see a black female PM in my career here.
It's not blatant racism because we are an extremely liberal university with diversity street cred all over the world. It's a persistent and systemic racism that starts in school or in my case, the construction site where most of us got started. It ebbs and flows through generations, but it exists and there is no thinking person that would argue otherwise. The "white guilt" is useless, but we do need white people to recognize that the system is rigged in our favor. Like many things recognizing and acknowledging the problem is the first step towards a solution.
As a white man I was able to take advantage of career opportunities that eventually afforded me the resources necessary to fund my transition. It wasn't easy by any measure and it did almost cost me my career BUT my problems have been largely middle class problems. Fear of losing career, house, status, etc. I have to recognize that many of my sisters don't have those things to lose. The fear itself was couched in privilege because my fears weren't about going hungry, or living on the street. My fears were simply about being uncomfortable in a way that I was unaccustomed to being. That by itself is a rather privileged position to be in. A position that many of my sisters do not share, especially if they're not white.
We are all privileged in some way yes? Perhaps we should spend more time being grateful and less time being hateful. Or as my momma used to say, "count your blessings"
So who did this horrible thing? Was it the kids? Of course not; kids don't have the power to set societal standards. It was the people who grew up when hateful and demeaning speech was encouraged. Do you think it was the people who were NOT targets of -- let's call it "mean speech" -- who changed the societal standards? Probably not. So it must have been the people who were or cared about the victims of mean speech who started changing things to stop it. So tell me again -- why is this a problem? People who were or felt harmed by this speech got together with others and have made their lives better by "forcing" people to think when they talk. Yes, we can't be reflexively intolerant now and go unchallenged and you're thinking that's a bad thing?
So let me make sure I have this right, because you inserted yourself more at the job, worked harder at the job, and had the ambition to move up in the ranks within the company, you are privileged? The color of your skin or sex helped out how?
Flip Flops were made for Beaches & Bath Houses, We have neither in 2017. Lose the flip flops!
and you can add me to those who "knew" privilege. It amazes me that you don't see that words DO hurt. And it confirms that many here live is a world where words aren't really denigrating them.
It didn't take me long to learn just how lucky I was. White, male, educated, physically healthy. Worst I was called referred to my German ancestry and that was well after the two world wars. During those conflicts my family gave up the trappings of the German past to try and avoid the remarks. Easy enough. White. However, there were others during taht time whose appearance couldn't blend. And where did they go? Relocation camps. Lack of privilege. But those who don't learn from history...
If you all had been anything but upper middle class and white and male, there would have been "words that will never harm you" except when you couldn't get a job, or get into a school, or move into a neighborhood...have a partner...adopt children. Words carry a lot of power. Using a word as simple as "girl" in a professional office setting implies less mature. The same with using any word that has "boy" in it. Stock boy, mail boy..all imply that you don't have the skill or education to be above. Yes, you can earn that. And you may not hate that label...until you are still a stock boy at 50 years old with less and less chance of rising (and thus one privilege goes away, youth...try and get a job as an older person, even if you have the other criteria).
Maybe your perspective is different because where you reside almost everyone looks and acts the same. But stop and think. If an ethnic person walks into someplace you are at, watch to see how the body language of those around you changes. Purses get moved to the opposite side. Backs get turned but the glances over the shoulder increase. You can deny that words don't hurt but try and live the life of someone who is tagged with those words. This thread was about the use of the word "Genetic girl" and in the context of these forums we do use that to clarify things. In the real world that can hurt. Why? Because first the person being spoken about will wonder why you have to be sure to say "genetic"? is there something they present that would in any way make anyone nearby think that they were not born female? And then to add the word "girl". They could be 60 years old, well past the girl stage (often in western society marked by puberty) but the word itself, outside a circle of peers, would be diminutive. Have you noticed how many men call their female partners "My girl" but women take an opposite view and refer to the male partner as "my MAN"? If she called her male partner "My boy" he would take offense (yeah, yeah, I know it wouldn't bother you guys because after all, words don't hurt...until the situation changes...like being intimate and suddenly you have to prove you aren't a boy but a man..)
We don't allow certain words in this forum because they DO hurt and their sole purpose is to hurt. They have no other function. I am so happy so many here have never been in a situation where words could wound your pride or your feelings. I knew that world. And unintentionally I used one of those words in a context I thought was academic. The hurt and the anger in the woman's eyes, who wasn't even part of the conversation, will never leave my mind. What I said wasn't meant to hurt anyone...and yet.
Deny privilege all you want...but it is becoming more and more obvious everyday.
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
Spoken like somebody with a lot of privilege.
Having spent time on the receiving end of a lot of preferential treatment and then experiencing the other side... It's real. Deal with it.
I know too many incredibly smart women who have been passed over without an even borderline-rational explanation, have been talked over incessantly in meetings, and who have had the credit for their ideas taken away from them by men who are so confident in how important they are to the process that they don't even realize they did it. It's like they just assume they must have come up with the best idea...
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Topic drift.
So, is the use of GG banned on the forum because it's offensive? If so, what replaces it? How many people claiming a term is offensive to them does it take before nobody's allowed to use any more? Does the most sensitive person set the standard for civil speech for all?
No Nicole, it is part of the language in this forum. The OP was saying the objection was outside the forum. When used in context here it is a defining word. How many does it take? In the real world, I would say one, if the specific word is used to somehow demean that one person.
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
So natal women may rightfully get offended by the term "gg" or "genetic girl" according to some of the posters here. Fair enough.
What about the TERF's ("Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists") then, who are adamant in their view that in no way is a M-T-F transsexual individual anywhere close to being on a par with a biological female (Hello, Germaine Greer - talking about you here, among others...) because they haven't "done the time", so to speak.
Do they get a free pass for their polarizing, hurtful point of view on this matter because they are women and feel disadvantaged due to an alleged lack of privilege?
I've had perhaps the unique experience of having been on both ends as well. Growing up, I was a smaller kid; I had a big ugly birthmark on my face which made me an outcast, someone no one wanted anything to do with, I was seen as being diseased as if I was infectious or something. I saw repulsion in people's eyes whenever the hair that hung down and covered it would move away and suddenly they saw THIS THING on my face. So I spent my entire early life being looked at as less than a normal human. What I did know, later on, was that I was growing, and I knew that even if I had an ugly birthmark on my face, I was becoming large enough to inspire fear in other people, and I knew that I could use that to my advantage. I also learned that height and size gave a person a certain 'presence' among the rest, and I could use that to my advantage too. It didn't have to be fear, just being there had the effect. When I learned, too, how to speak in ways which inspired attention and confidence in others, it gradually turned my life around. Then, when I had my facial problem fixed, only then did I finally start to experience the privilege that everyone speaks of. And I was able to see how it worked; how people behaved and responded to the others around them, and importantly, how those in groups who traditionally felt that they were the victims of others' privilege, worked to manipulate their way around it. There are plenty of very successful women and racial minority individuals out there who have made it, in spite of what is perceived as white male privilege. Those who want to be as successful as them, would be wise to study them, and emulate what they learn, rather than just complain that they aren't being given what they think they deserve. Sure, the people who run the world have pre-conceived assumptions of what you are, based in initial appearances. It's up to the individual to make it clear of who and what they are, by presenting themselves properly instead of just wishing things would be different.
And yet, for some oddball reason that no one can explain, the terms girlfriend and boyfriend are used for all ages, and no one finds any offense to them. Anyone here able to explain that one? And how it relates to people continuing to use the words boy and girl in other ways? Hmmmm.Have you noticed how many men call their female partners "My girl" but women take an opposite view and refer to the male partner as "my MAN"? If she called her male partner "My boy" he would take offense (yeah, yeah, I know it wouldn't bother you guys because after all, words don't hurt...until the situation changes...like being intimate and suddenly you have to prove you aren't a boy but a man..)
Last edited by sometimes_miss; 07-17-2016 at 03:55 PM.
Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.
No, they don't.
I've listened to their arguments, and I've talked with a number of them. I understand their reasoning, and some of them have had deeply hurtful experiences at the hands of men. I get that. I obviously disagree with the conclusions they've drawn, however, and I tell them so.
Like most any highly polarized group, there are a lot of people attached to that group who are far more moderate but were attracted to some aspect of the philosophy. When I talk about people generally willing to accept people like me, but not CDs/autogynephiles/fetishists, there are a lot of women on the moderate end of the TERF/gender-critical groups who are in that bucket (along with a lot of women on the "but I do have reservations" end of the more accepting side).
Last edited by Zooey; 07-17-2016 at 04:34 PM.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
When I first became involved in the community, "GG" was in common use and was pretty much the preferred term for referring to a Genetic Woman in the community as a way to make it clear that she was not trans herself. I've got to be honest, I had NO idea that it was now considered rude, but after seeing some of the replies, it does make sense. Gonna have to scratch that one off my list . . .
In the the transgender community but did anyone ask them?
Hi Kelly, I stay as far away from facebook s I can...
...
Having my ears triple pierced is AWESOME, ~~...
I can explain it to you, But I can't comprehend it for you !
If at first you don't succeed, Then Skydiving isn't for you.
Be careful what you wish for, Once you ring a bell , you just can't Un-Ring it !! !!
Leslie, thank you for standing up for our youth. For those that aren't paying attention, we have a suicide attempt rate of 41% compared to 1.6% for the total population. if you don't think words are a big part of that, come forward and pay attention to what is happening more. It is an epidemic.
I will speak up on privilege too. I have white privilege. I have financial privilege. I no longer have male privilege. Maintaining those two carried me through my transition in a way that I can look at my fellow transexuals and see those who are people of color or under/unemployed and see the struggles they go through on their transition, showing mine was a cake walk in comparison. Generally, when someone poo-poos privilege, they are absolutely full of priviledge.
Going all word-nerd: my sense of it is that it's a bit self-deprecating. 'Way back in the early-to-mid-twentieth century there was a presumption that people would meet, mate and stay together for life. If one died there are a dim possibility they might remarry, but if a couple divorced they were immediately isolated from the herd (for fear divorce was catching) and were expected to live alone. As a result, the only real words for unmarried couples in a relationship reflected they expectation that they'd be youths -- boyfriend / girlfriend. Marriage conferred adulthood.
So along comes the 1960's and all of that goes splat. Divorce starts to become "normal" and people who are divorced are no longer ostracized and actually have another chance at happiness. But the only words for describing unmarried adult couples in a relationship were overtly sexual: lover, mistress, etc. Just as people started coopting "transgender" rather than saying "transsexual" (because of that horrifying s-e-x word in there) they were uncomfortable with lover because of the implied sexual connotation. "Manfriend" and "Womanfriend" made an attempt, but never caught on because, well, they're really, really awkward. I heard paramour make a run at being accepted but it also failed to take hold. So now you have people in their 60's talking about their boyfriends and girlfriends in a half-humorous way acknowledging that no better word has come along.
At least that's the etymology as I see it.
Last edited by Pat; 07-17-2016 at 10:27 PM. Reason: stinking auto-correct
- I don't know and think people answered your fish and brick question.
- The term GG may need to be stated so people know what it means off the bat instead of getting pissed reading the comments trying to figure out what it means so just say 'GG (genertic Girl)' so people know the first time they read it what it means. Past that if you need to go off into a tiny tanget just let the other folks know why you simply use GG from your perspective and to TOLERATE it if not respect where it is coming from, at least for the duration of commenting on your post.
- And again to carry on the conversation just announce in parentheses ( ) what each term means the first time and somewhere in your original post or comment please ask for understanding/TOLERATION/respect for the term and why you use it. Now if you were going out of your way to call a woman a GG to spite her (cause she hates the term).... you're just being a jerk.
EDIT
Oh and just for fun, out-of-towners got pissed off at a waitress here because she referred to the couple (husband and wife) as guys. "How you guys doing tonight and can I start you off with some drinks"? Wife was super upset, but that is just the way we talk here, it is again the respect for how people talk.You have a CD-accented typing personality, okay!
Last edited by Lorileah; 07-18-2016 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Really? You had to bring location and predjudice together?
Oh I don't know . . . why not have parents teach their children to be respectful of others in the first place and not name call or be disparaging . . . not required in daily life. Before you go off on a tangent about kids being kids and they should just grow a thick skin . . . as others have said, tell that to the parent of the children who committed suicide because the name calling was so bad it was all they could do to make the pain go away.
Marcelle
Marcelle name calling and disparaging comments among children is not something that anyone encourages, kids are not really taught to do this by parents. As far as I can see things have been set up in a way that actually teaches children to be respectful, rather than disrespectful.
However children need to learn how to take criticism and understand social dynamics, but also they need to learn how to be resilient and not allow what others think or say affect them negatively, hopefully they will develop strong characteristics of individuality and self worth on their own. These are important life skills and if one is to be successful and survive one needs to know how to stand up for themselves and of course others. Children need to eventually understand that other people think differently and have different opinions, and that the world isn't so idealistic that everyone has nice things to say and good intentions. People need thick skins, successful societies and successful people don't have thin skin, the thin skin comes along after the hard work is done and it can lead to downfall. Also kids will be kids, they'll learn bad words, they'll learn to lie, to notice differences among the people around them, they'll know shame and ridicule, they'll influence and be influenced.
I suppose you think telling people not to name call and bully will prevent suicide, perhaps we should tell people not to rape or commit violent crime.
Oh wow. Just wow. So...let's assume you make a racist comment in a chat area. Someone calls you out on it. You say "Hey, it's my perspective...tolerate it." And that makes it ok since after all you explained your rude comment was your perspective and not really meant as hurtful.
uh huh like the father who uses certain words on a sports field to deride another player on a team, or a player who makes a mistake on their own kid's team. Nope parents don't teach it. It in born into children. NOT. Children are taught to say things and do things. And the first teachers are parents and siblings
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
As mentioned in my prior post, not every woman objects to being referred to as "GG" and this also depends on the circumstances where the term is used. I know that in this forum, it has been customary to use this term to refer to natal females. I personally would have preferred something else (i.e. "NF" for natal female), but I've no inclination to spend time and energy trying to convince all 4,000 other members to stop using "GG" in favor of "NF". lol :p So because "GG" is the term that everyone understands here, it is the term I use and I don't mind using it.
But in real life, I would think it in poor taste if I was in a business meeting with other women and a man walked in greeting us as "Hello girls". I feel this would be disrespectful. When I greet a group of women, I usually use the term "ladies", as in "Good afternoon, ladies". If greeting a group of men, I say "Good afternoon, gentlemen". When addressing a group of mixed genders, I say, "Hello, everyone". I don't object to someone beginning a speech with "Ladies and gentlemen". It would be odd to begin a speech with "Girls and gentlemen". lol
I do understand why some women on the internet would object to being referred to as "girls" if they do not know the person using the term, especially if these women are sensitive to feminist issues.
I'm not the one splitting hairs. The OP asked why some women object to "GG". I merely explained why.Reine, you know I love you, but this splitting hairs seems so un-needed, as others have already said.
But here's another thought for Kelly DeWinter:
If, in the forum you went to, there are both natal and trans women, and the natal females support transwomens' need to not be seen as different, they might have objected to being singled out as being apart or different than transwomen? The term "GG" does this. And so maybe the natal females on that forum would like you to use a term that applies to all women alike, and instead simply refer to everyone as "women", as Arbon suggested on the first page of this tread?
Reine
Lorileah, this is what I meant by "are not really", generally children are not consciously taught to be abusive bullies or whatever, but they may learn and pick things up from other people, sure. No one, no normal adult at least, teaches a child to call other children names. Children are however born with the ability to recognise patterns and create concepts of what is and isn't normal, or different, no one teaches them these things, they simply absorb their surroundings. Children tend to pick on others who don't fit in or function within a group, they'll often pick on those that look, act, dress or sound different. No one really teaches a child these things, it's almost as if it is a primitive function or instinct, undesirable individuals for example are quickly identified and cast out of a group, or criticized until they conform.
It is ironic reading about learning to be resilient and not allowing what others think to or say to affect them negatively from a closeted person who avoids such consequences in terms of their gender variance. I hate to call anyone out, but this is a pretty classic example of "well it's not a problem for me, so why's it a problem for you?"
As for having a thick hide - I am, at this point, armor plated. I don't like the term "GG" for two simple reasons:
1. Technically it isn't very accurate. "Genetic Female" would be better, but genetics are only one of the things that makes someone male or female.
2. It's used here, all too often, to imply that transgender women are less than cisgender women, that we aren't real, that our experiences as women don't count. That angers me. Some examples:
- threads specifying "GG only replies", and then asking a question that could totally apply to a trans woman.
- threads making it clear many respondents would only date a GG, not a trans woman. It's the implication they'd only date "real women" that's the problem, that is, trans people aren't real.
- there is just this pervasive attitude of some here that GG's are the real deal, and trans women are a cheap substitute, that we are fake, that we are "less than."
I get all of this I can possibly stand in my everyday life, so it isn't pleasant reading it here.
3. 0As for why cisgender women might be offended, I believe for some of them, any designation other than "woman" is an affront, since they perceive themselves to be the "normal ones." That is, cis privilege.
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