The Mostly False Perception that Crossdressers are Gay

[BettyMorgan]

Some of the quotes here are so interesting....

"Things are indeed changing in society today and there is a slow but growing acceptance of homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle. "
OK, let me stop you here. Being gay is NOT a lifestyle. Full-time RVing is a lifestyle, but sexual orientation (gay or otherwise) is not. Please people, if you find someone stuck in the 70s, tell them that sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression are different and separate. And if you are heterosexual, has anyone ever said to, "I see you have a fondness for women. How's that heterosexual lifestyle working for you?" Probably not.


"Why would lesbians wear pretty clothes?"
Seriously? Lesbians, like anyone else, can wear whatever they want. In fact, if a trans man decides to wear sexy nightgown to bed one night, or a trans woman decides to wear a flannel shirt and pants to work one day, it does not change how trans they are. Gender expression does NOT change or impact your sexual orientation. This goes back to the response some people give when they hear you are a cross dresser - "Hey, are you gay now?" There is no uniform for a sexual orientation despite stereotypes you may hear of.


"Yes, it's changing, but by bit, but Caitlyn Jenner and Ru Paul have a lot more work to do before a real understanding of TG people is common."
No, despite their entertainment value, please don't point to these people as two who in any way represent, speak for, or educate about the trans community. Please. Don't. They ooze with privilege that the majority of trans women don't benefit from.


Even the title of the this thread. "The Mostly False Perception that Crossdressers are Gay" is odd.
Crossdressers can be gay. They can also be hetero, bi-sexual, and even asexual. People who jump to the conclusion that crossdressers are gay have a lack of a basic understanding of sexual orientation, gender identity and expression. It would be great if they learned some science.

[Robertacd]

Why would lesbians wear pretty clothes?

Why wouldn't they?

[ReineD]

The human species survives fundamentally because of sex. We may not talk about it a lot in our day-to-day lives and some pockets of our societies are downright puritanical. Of course as we age it becomes less important, but still sex is at the core of who we are. It has to be. And it drives the beauty and fashion industry. Why do you think that women want to look pretty and men want to look virile. Why do they use all those gorgeous female or virile male models to sell us all kinds of stuff.

And so when a man puts on the things that women put on in order to attract men, the assumption is that he wants what she wants - men. Women don't put that stuff on when they're just hanging out together.

Quick story: a friend transitioned about 7 years ago. She takes hormones but I don't know if she has had SRS. She recently posted a pic on facebook about her weekend getaway at a remote cabin (in the woods by a lake) with 6-7 GGs. Everyone was in grubby T-shirts, jeans, no makeup, etc. My friend was the only one all made up, with jewelry, a plunging neckline showing her cleavage, and shorts. Why. All the comments (there were lots from all the tagged GG's friends) had to do with what fun they must all be having, except my friend's 2 male friends. They commented on her appearance. The GGs in the pic and those commenting didn't give two hoots about makeup and cleavage, out in the middle of nowhere with no males around. lol. Why did my friend feel she needed to look sexually appealing. I don't get it, honestly.

Do you see why many people think that CDs/TGs/TSs are attracted to men? That said, I should hope that most people aren't as prejudiced against gay men as 30-40 years ago. But even if they think homosexuality is no big deal, they may still think that it is the fundamental motive for a birth-male who presents as a female.

[Teresa]

Reine,
I know the feeling , for TGs it's much harder to tone it down , personally it's removing all traces of the man , women don't have shaving shadow so don't need makeup in the same way . Women know they have breasts so don't need to show it , a TG again is trying to prove something , the bottom line is learning not to overdo it , to TGs being natural means reverting to the male mode .

[GaleWarning]

I just enjoy wearing the clothes.
Can't be bothered with the introspection.

[Stephanie47]

Women Who Sport a Close (Butch) Hair Style are Lesbians

Isn't it somewhat similar. I know many women who have had to listen to that crap because their hair was short. My wife, when she was recovering from chemotherapy, had short hair as it was growing in. She did over hear some rude comment coming from another woman shopper about it. My wife tore her an new arsehole.

Too many people are ignorant. Too many people do not want to be educated. They enjoy their blissful ignorance. They would also flunk Logic 101 in college. When I was a teenager back in the 1960's men who wore women's clothing were labeled homosexuals. Nobody thought otherwise with the exception of those cross dressers who weren't. To most it was a logical conclusion, if a man wore women's clothing he wanted to go the distance and have sex with a man. Men and women are wired to have sex. It is a natural act. It is procreation. Natural women use visual enhancements to attract men. It's plumage as in the animal world. Society has a vested interest in having men and women interacting and producing little people to replenish the herd.

Yes, just about every women is going to ask the question of her man, "Are you gay?" because the plumage a cross dresser wears is actually geared to attract men. I cannot fault a woman to ask that question. My wife one time said if a woman were to come after me and try to woo me away from her, she would know how to fight. But, if a man were to try to do the same, she would not know what to do. How does a woman compete for her husband, when her husband turns out to be a closeted homosexual? She can't. And, why would she? It's tough to convince a woman that wearing women's clothing does not automatically equate to homosexuality.

Of course the society input does not help the situation either. Many times it affirms the perception.

What of men who seek out cross dressing men and transwomen for sexual encounters? What is their perception? And, what is the perception of society?

[Ressie]

These are just assumptions. Everyone makes assumptions - often that are completely wrong. Just assume that a lot of people will think you're gay when you're en femme. It's not like it's their fault that they think this.

[LilSissyStevie]

Aw, come on, admit it. It's pretty gay. Actually, I've struggled with my sexuality more than with gender. My first orgasm was to a fantasy of having gay sex while crossdressed. So, excuse me for thinking there might be a connection between the two. My problem is that I'm just not attracted to men outside of fantasy. Even in the fantasy the men are faceless abstractions rather than actual people to whom I would be attracted. The focus isn't on them, it's on myself as a fairy. Everything would have been so much easier if I really was attracted to men but I can't even force myself to like them. So, I'm kind of stuck in a sexual no man's land (is that a pun?)

It cracks me up how many CDs will vehemently deny being gay (heaven forbid!) but will readily admit to bisexuality. Yet bisexuality just means you are gay sometimes and straight sometimes or maybe even at the same time if you can get a little group action going. I will admit that I'm not really straight but I'm not really gay either. I'm queer which is just a category for all the misfit toys.

[Marianne S]

Hi Lacy,

There are some good comments on your thread, but when it comes to answering your fundamental question, it seems to me that everyone so far has missed the obvious. Why do people assume that any man who crossdresses is gay? Yes, I'm sure there's more than one reason, but the main reason of all has to be that people form their opinions based on what is visible to them!

Take the matter of gay men themselves as an example. Why do people assume that gay men are "effeminate"? Many gay men--probably a majority for all I know--appear just like any straight man, and I'm sure many are downright macho, possibly taking a kind of autoerotic pleasure in their own hypermasculinity. But ordinary people would never identify them as "gay." The only gay men people notice are those who are visibly effeminate in some way--hence their misguided assumption that "gay men are effeminate," and their identification of male gayness with "femininity."

The same is true of male-to-female crossdressers. A large majority of us, including me, are heterosexual--I'm told it's seventy percent at least (if anyone has any different information I'll be interested to hear it)--but how visible are we to the public? Many of us are hidden in the closet, so they never see us! What's more, if we do go out in public en femme, most of us do our best to "pass" as women! That's something we yearn to achieve! And as far as we succeed in that endeavor, we're not noticed by the public as "crossdressing men." In their minds we might as well not exist!

Who are the crossdressers they do notice? Well, it's the drag queens! It's the flamboyant, "in-your-face" crossdressers who "put on a show" for the public, who want to be noticed! It's "Hey, look at us, we're Here and we're Queer!" It's men like Ru Paul, who was mentioned by Micki Finn. And they, like Ru Paul, typically are gay! So when the only crossdressers that the public are chiefly exposed to are in fact gay, we can hardly blame people for making the assumptions they do.

I wish there were a fix for this, but I can't think of one offhand. I suppose we need more education and more "obvious" crossdressers out on the streets, with T-shirts and placards reading "I am straight, just like you." But who wants to volunteer for that job?

[Tracii G]

I would say 70% of the gay men I know are quite manly.
One is a policeman several are firefighters, two are high schools sports coaches.
The other 30% well a few are doctors, one is a financial advisor.another is a Delta airline pilot for example.
None of them are effeminate at all.
Of course some are but not the pushy in your face type effeminate like you speak of.Those kind are aggravating sometimes.
In my group I think only 3 of us are actually trans and only one or two have even CD'd before.
CDing has nothing to do with being gay we all know that but the public no matter how much you tell them it just doesn't compute in their head.
I keep my self toned down but its pretty obvious I am gay.

[Jodie_Lynn]

Straight. Gay. Bisexual. Pansexual. Asexual. Non-binary, genderfluid, genderqueer. White. Black. Yellow. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Atheist.


These are all just convenient labels that people can stick onto other people, so that they can classify them in their head.

The labels allow people to put others into a preconceived, presupposed category so that they don't have to think about that person as a person.

Oh, he's gay? That means he... ( insert perceptions about gays here )

Oh, she's black? That means... ( insert perceptions about blacks here )

Most people have perceptions about other groups, not based on real life experience, but rather on what they have been told, or taught to think about those groups.

Even within this thread, I see sweeping generalizations about groups, when everyone here should realize that no two members of this forum share the exact same path, motivations, drives, or experiences. Yes, we have lots of similarities, but overall, we are all clumped under the CD/TG umbrella.

So it is highly amusing to see some of the members here exhibit the same sort of myopic stereotyping of other groups.

[Tracii G]

I see that a lot here too Jodi and when you actually say it they all fly out of the wood work and demonize the one that said it. Tolerant huh?

[Jodie_Lynn]

Tracii, I'm all set for the demonizing.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm with u on this one Teresa!

I've met so many T's in the last 10 years! Too many to count. I can't recall many, (or any), confessing to being gay. But, quite a few say they r bi. And, many of those bi's only r interested in trans MtoF males!

I've read a number of posts here saying the % of gay trans is about the same as in regular male population.

But, what about bi trans? And, those that only "date" other T's? I'm guessing it's a very high % compared to % of T's who r gay!?

[Rogina B]

I've met so many T's in the last 10 years! Too many to count. I can't recall many, (or any), confessing to being gay. But, quite a few say they r bi. And, many of those bi's only r interested in trans MtoF males

Ever been with a "bear" ??? Perhaps Tracii knows where I am going with this.. Gay males run from the over masculine to the feminine for sure.....Some are so masculine that they see no need to take care of them selves in many ways. Trans people are a lot better group to play with as they do take care of themselves....

[MonicaPVD]

No.
One.
Cares.

[Alice Torn]

Marrianne, I agree very much with your post

[LilSissyStevie]

I've met so many T's in the last 10 years! Too many to count. I can't recall many, (or any), confessing to being gay. But, quite a few say they r bi. And, many of those bi's only r interested in trans MtoF males!

I suspect that people say they are bi because somehow they think it means not gay. Yet bi just mean gay but not exclusively so or it can mean not exclusively straight. Six of one or half dozen of the other. The writer Gore Vidal used to say that there are no homosexual people only homosexual acts. Looking at it that way there is a lot more gay going on than there are people that identify as gay. Dr. Ray Blanchard, the guy that coined the term "autogynephilia" (AGP) also came up with the ten dollar term "gynandromorphophilia" (GAMP) to describe those who are attracted to MTFs. That would include both "chasers" and MTFs who are attracted to other MTFs. GAMPs, by his reckoning, are outside the bi/gay/straight paradigm. Like AGP, it's it's own sexual orientation. Personally, I could only be attracted to MTFs under two conditions: They were totally convincing as GGs with the addition of one part and they were tops. I've never met anyone like that in real life and the closest thing in fantasy would be what the Japanese call Futanari. GGs with detachable parts are just as good and they exist. Maybe that's just a variation on GAMP. I don't really know or care to tell the truth. The muggles just divide the world into people who are straight like them and everyone else is gay. That puts me in the gay camp by their reasoning. They don't care about our little distinctions and why should they?

[jacques]

hello Lacy,
you are correct that it is a false perception and that bigotry is on the decline in society.
But, I think that crossdressing is the last taboo. Society can understand if some people are attracted to their own sex. Society can understand if some people wish to change their sex. But wearing the clothes of the other sex - if you read many of the threads in this group you will see that most of us do not know why we do it - so how can we explain it to others?
luv J

[Teresa]

Jodi/Tracii,
I feel much of what we live with in the West is the product of media presentation , they love stereotypes . As soon as censorship allowed it , it started to happen , an effeminate man had to be gay , the first Cders featured had to be gay and so on . OK this gave rise to clubs and bars catering for this emerging freedom , maybe it's why the US has more gay bars , the movies had a greater influence in the US .

We may criticise the media but it has also opened up the whole scene for the LGBTQ community , in the UK I do feel it's now working in our favour now some of the old sterotypes are being dropped . Factual programs are showing the TG commuity as a separate enitity from the LG community , personally I feel it needed to happen , being trans does not mean being gay .

Jacques,
I'm wondering if the act and label of crossdressing is taboo but not being TG .

To some people being told the husband / male partner wears their female partners clothes is creepy and weird . To be told he's been to counselling and has been diagnosed as TG isn't considerd in the same light even though he still wears his partners clothes .

[Tracii G]

Rogina funny you mentioned the "bears" and yes I know of a few.
None personally tho'.
There are just so many variations in the gay world just as there is in the regular world.

[Jodie_Lynn]

No.
One.
Cares.

So insightful! We can just shut this thread down, Monica has spoken!

So sad if this distracts from the current "My favorite panty" thread, but this is a valid and appropriate subject regarding how the non-CD/TG world see the community.

It is a somewhat logical assumption to think that a male who dresses in feminine attire is doing so to attract another male. especially since males are still in the catbird seat for the most part. Why else would a man choose or desire, to represent as, what many people think, is the 'second class' sex? Hell, in some parts of the world, the family goat has a higher social standing than a woman!

I am NOT stating that all crossdressers are gay, have gay tendencies, or are even bisexual. But the majority of the muggle world see it a little differently.

And it is something that needs to be discussed. Both amongst ourselves, and the uninitiated world at large.

[Ressie]

I suspect that people say they are bi because somehow they think it means not gay. Yet bi just mean gay but not exclusively so or it can mean not exclusively straight. Six of one or half dozen of the other. The writer Gore Vidal used to say that there are no homosexual people only homosexual acts. Looking at it that way there is a lot more gay going on than there are people that identify as gay.

I'm seeing a lot of men on other websites identifying as "Straight" but they're looking for action with CDs or with other men. It seems they're just in search of getting their rocks off with whoever. Maybe they're in denial that they're really bisexual or...

So how many crossdressers out there say they're straight but have either engaged in homosexual activity - or at least fantasized about it?

[sometimes_miss]

Why would lesbians wear pretty clothes?

Perhaps they like feeling pretty. But you'd have to ask the particular one, who does go through all the trouble to look great. Then again, if you're a woman, trying to attract someone who is attracted to women, what better way than to emphasize everything beautiful about yourself?

And so when a man puts on the things that women put on in order to attract men, the assumption is that he wants what she wants - men.

^this seems to be forgotten, no matter how many times it is said.

Why did my friend feel she needed to look sexually appealing. I don't get it, honestly.

She wore what she wore, to feel good about herself. We each may interpret what feels comfy to wear, in a different way. Some prefer physical comfort, some prefer the psychological comfort of wearing what we think we should be wearing, along with all the tactile, visual, auditory, and perhaps even olfactory clues we desire.

Everything would have been so much easier if I really was attracted to men but I can't even force myself to like them.

Same here.

So, I'm kind of stuck in a sexual no man's land (is that a pun?)

Seems to be a pretty big 'land'.

[Leelou]

Lacy,
I'm inclined to agree with Micki , it is a dated assumption . All the time I've been out in the RW not one person has asked the question or made the obvious camp gestures . As far a I can see the non-tolerant camp are in the minority .

While I accept we all crossdress , I've never used that label and again no one has said , " Oh you're a crossdresser !" Being TG has become a more common way of life and lets not forget the number of F/M is a catching the M/F community up very rapidly , some clinics now have a 50-50 split , the point being M/F are possibly more obvious .

Most people are intelligent enough to segregate the TG needs from homosexual needs , I thought it would pose me a problem when being out in the RW with other members of the TG community but the public just hasn't responded the way I feared . Personally I'm not gay but some of my TG friends are BI , I have light hearted banter with them but they know it's not my scene . ( As Mararet Thatcher famously said , " The lady is not for turning !" OK it was said with a totally different meaning but quite a relevant quote for me .)

I also agree with Micki, this is a dated assumption. I've brought up Ann Landers before, but I knew in the 70's that most crossdressers were straight and many were married with kids. There is nothing new under the sun.