WIFEY and NIMBY

[DianeT]

My wife doesn't like the idea of her husband crossdressing (late coming out on my part). As she considers herself a tolerant person in gender matters, she wonders if the fact that she dislikes my crossdressing invalidates that.
This is something that I sometimes read in these forums: women are very accepting of crossdressers, until, until (drum roll...) it lands in their backyard with their husband/SO presenting as a woman on occasions. Then here goes tolerance!
Well. Maybe not. We had a very interesting discussion about that with my wife, and starting with this topic of crossdressing and trying to draw analogies with other situations proved more tricky than it first seemed.
The problem:

1. As a woman you say that you are tolerant with crossdressers, you acknowledge their existence and consider that everyone can live their life the way they want.
2. Your husband/SO, present or future, happens to be one of them.
3. You don't accept it (or struggle with it).
4. Ergo, you are not tolerant, please go back and scratch that point 1.

Actually there's a logical flaw in this point 4.

Trying another analogy:

1. As an individual, you have no objection about people eating fish.
2. Ergo you should be eating fish.

Wrong? And yet, the above example is just a condensed version of the previous one .

We tried various other analogies that I will spare you with, but at the end of the discussion we came to the conclusion that my wife was a tolerant person. She doesn't mind people crossdressing. She just doesn't want to be in a relationship with a crossdresser herself, and that is totally her right. Just like I don't like eating fish, but am very tolerant with people who do (except when they microwave it at the office. There should be laws against this).
The flaw in point 4 was to confuse the tolerance for a practice with a personal involvement in the said practice. Like, a heterosexual GG may perfectly be comfortable with lesbian couples without wanting to engage in such a relationship.
In my opinion the NIMBY qualifier doesn't apply to unaccepting or moderately accepting wives that consider themselves tolerant to crossdressers. It would apply only if they said that having a crossdressing husband should not be a problem, before they had a chance of being confronted to the situation in their own couple. Otherwise, they are just being tolerant with other people's' practices without wanting to personally engage in them.
Which I think is a good start to building an accepting society for crossdressers.

[Micki_Finn]

I understand your point and I believe many of us have already reached the same conclusion. Those that haven’t are unlikely to be swayed.

[char GG]

I don't care how other people want to live their lives. It's their business.

I do care when the person that I live with and that I thought I knew everything about, throws something unknown such as CDing, GD, or even sexual orientation in the relationship. A spouse is usually chosen based on the complete package with all of the pertinent information about them shared prior to marriage. Everyone has a life story. I would hope that both people, before marriage, knows each other's life story. When the story changes, then the questions start: How much did I really know this person? So, maybe it's a matter of timing. In your case, Diane, do you think your wife would have been ok with your CDing if she had known prior to committing to the marriage? Is it really the "act" of CDing or the secret that was hidden for so long. Only she would know that answer.

So about the NIMBY part. Again, timing and/or the degree of CDing may play a big part in that.

About your fish analogy:

1. I have no objection to people eating fish.
2. I don't like the taste fish.

[Tracii G]

This has been discussed in great detail on this and other CD forums all across the internet but will you ever get an solid concrete answer ? I doubt it.
Usually the people that claim they are tolerant really aren't.NIMBY proves this in spades.

[Rhonda Jean]

You can be very tolerant and accepting of a lot of things, but not want to be married to them.

I took me a long time to understand and accept that my wife could have a totally different viewpoint on something and she was no more wrong or right than me. Example; I've always liked shaved legs (and everything else). I mean, who on earth wouldn't prefer shaved to hairy? Clearly, shaved is far superior, right? Wrong, of course. Doesn't mean she won't tolerate it, but if she prefers hairy, that's not wrong. (I still think you ought to be able to shave, BTW). Take makeup for example. Isn't it blatantly obvious that everybody on the planet looks better in makeup? How could it be that someone who is attracted to you wouldn't be even more attracted to you when you enhance your appearance with makeup?

I'm sure in France you're not familiar with the movie Joe Dirt. You kind of need to be from the southern U.S. to appreciate this kind of wisdom, but a quote from the movie addresses the mysteries of life.

"How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does."

There's wisdom in there for both sides of this subject.

[alwayshave]

Dianne, This is true about so much more than crossdressing. It's OK if someone id Bi, as long as I'm not married to them. It's OK if someone smokes as long as I'm not married to them, etc.....

[DianeT]

I do care when the person that I live with and that I thought I knew everything about, throws something unknown such as CDing, GD, or even sexual orientation in the relationship. A spouse is usually chosen based on the complete package with all of the pertinent information about them shared prior to marriage. Everyone has a life story. I would hope that both people, before marriage, knows each other's life story. When the story changes, then the questions start: How much did I really know this person? So, maybe it's a matter of timing. In your case, Diane, do you think your wife would have been ok with your CDing if she had known prior to committing to the marriage? Is it really the "act" of CDing or the secret that was hidden for so long. Only she would know that answer.

It only makes sense that accepting others people's fancies and having them introduced in your couple can't be put on the same level. I hope that I didn't offend anyone with the "here goes tolerance" bit (I slightly edited that part to avoid ambiguity), it was tongue in cheek
I don't think my wife would have been very enthusiastic about CDing before marriage, but we discussed it and as it stands we'll never know. The lack of trust, the lying however seems the bigger problem. She's asking herself the questions you say.
So, you too don't like fish? We should make a club. And put padlocks on microwaves.

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You can be very tolerant and accepting of a lot of things, but not want to be married to them.

The purpose of my post was to explain why I thought that NIMBY couldn't apply to my wife (and to many other GGs in her situation). I think you just summarized it in one line, so I should quote you in a TLDR; section

I'm sure in France you're not familiar with the movie Joe Dirt. You kind of need to be from the southern U.S. to appreciate this kind of wisdom, but a quote from the movie addresses the mysteries of life.

"How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does."

There's wisdom in there for both sides of this subject.

We saw David Spade in Father of the year, but did not see Joe Dirt. From the quote I take it that southern US wisdom is of the practical, down to earth kind. We have an equivalent in an old sketch from the sixties (Fernand Raynaud), where a middle-class, uneducated father gets bombed with complicated questions from his young prodigy son, such as "how do nuclear submarines work in water since they have no diesel or electric engine?" or "why do cows have horns and horses don't?", and the father answers "c'est etudie pour" ("it's been designed for it"). "C'est etudie pour" entered common French language and is a way to humorously evade answering to a complicated question.

[AllieSF]

I get the reference. My daughter is that way and still not over the shock of me coming out to her over 3 years ago. She is an adult who left home many years ago, has adult children of her own and is divorced. She is true adult by age and experience. We were always very close, and then we were NOT! The sad thing was is that she has never found words to be able to discuss her feelings, angers and frustrations. I have encouraged her so many times that it finally ended in an argument that left us not communicating for over 8 months. We see each other now and she sounds the same as before, but she never reciprocates in calling me to see how I am, or to invite me over, which she always did, or to watch a movie. Maybe someday?? I hope!!??

[Devi SM]

Diane,
Yours is the typical rationalist macho analysis to excuse a man dressing as a woman but you forget something basic in every human being.

We're made, built of experiences and information from our environment and one of the strongest info are the stereotypes. Nobody is free of them, less the emotional person. Women are emotional, their feelings can change for night to morning so you can't understand them because their can not understand themselves.
It's impossible you can understand this concept because you're applying rational analysis to feeling that most of the time are not rational.

I won't get deeper in this because you will try to rationally analice it and is not possible, just a woman, under the women's hormones can understand what I'm saying.

I'll give you homework to think about it

Devi

[Maid_Marion]

An accepting wife is willing to talk about it and set ground rules that are mutually acceptable to the both of you.

Marion

[Kelly DeWinter]

The head and the heart may be only inches apart, but they are light years distant from one another.

[Stephanie47]

My wife is allergic to fish!!!

[DianeT]

Yours is the typical rationalist macho analysis to excuse a man dressing as a woman but you forget something basic in every human being.

Devi, I am afraid that you didn't understand my post. Was I that unclear? The purpose of the post is to deny the NIMBY qualifier for wives who consider themselves tolerant to crossdressing but nonetheless struggle with their husband's crossdressing. It explains that you can be tolerant and still struggle with things. Is that macho?

[Miel GG]

@Devi,
I am happy that you wanted to report macho comments but I totally disagree with you here. As a GG I found your post mysogynist. Your vision of women is outdated. Women are not all emotion and men are not all reason ! (Sorry I don't change my mind during the night more often than any human being) Patriarchy assigned Culture to men to ensure their power and assigned Nature to women (poor ones, they are not able to think by themselves, they are fragile and fickle...) to ensure control of them. In reality, women AND men are under hormones control. By the way do you know that scientists demonstrated that testosterone isn't correlated to violent behavior ?

@Kelly,
Heart, but I shall say Love is the argument used by patriarchal society to manipulate women. In this society, women are traditionally in charge of care, of the well-being of their family, and the name of Love is always used to force them to sacrifice themselves, i.e. don't divorce : you will hurt your children, don't leave your man : endure the behavior of your husband, he has had an affair because men have more sexual needs (wtf !)... With this argument, you only lead women to act to the benefit of the husband and you deny them the right to preserve themselves too.
I am quite sure that when you have an important decision to make you try to be rational and don't let emotions guide your choice.

In this forum I often read severe comments about non accepting or moderately accepting women who claimed to be tolerant. Some jeer and disqualify them with the NIMBY label. Even though I know these kinds of comments came from people feeling hurt, I personally feel offended. I don't just claim I am tolerant, I act for the defense of LGBTQ rights. In my backyard, you can find for example gay friends, some of them are CD (but not in front of me, their choices). In my backyard, as I am an hetero women, I didn't plan to let a CD boyfriend enter but he entered without my knowledge... I didn't choose this situation (and I don't really know what could have been my reaction if he has confessed he was CDing before we committed, but at least I wouldn't feel betrayed) and I struggle with the CDing of hubby. Should I be shamed by NIMBY label and called intolerant ? I don't think so. Many CDs here claim they are tolerant but some don't want to commit with a woman who smokes for example... Making choices for our personal and intimate life doesn't imply we are intolerant if we stand for the right of being different and have the same rights as those who are not labelled as different. Should I be lesbian because if not I am so intolerant, even if I am not attracted to women ?

[Michellebej]

Technically toleration is something you acknowledge without acceptance.

So she probably is tolerant. She acknowledges that it exist and she does not care unless it occures in her life. But she does not accept it.

A point I hear from many GGs who are in relationships with CDs is that "there was a secret", that you didn't tell her about. My social circle is composed almost entirely of GGs. From my personal experience almost all of them have things they have hidden from their husbands/SOs.

A few years ago one of my GG friends was complaining to the girls about her husband coming out as a CD. She was very bitter about it. Which surprised us. When asked why, her answer was that he had hid a secret from her and therefore she could not trust him. When I asked her if her husband knew that in College he had been in a ltr with a woman for 2 years, and had been a very promiscous stripper for 3 years; she said "No, what does that have to do with anything?". I told her it was the same thing, she was keeping secrets from her husband. The response was interesting. She said "No, completely different. That was in the past and he has no business knowing about it. This is NOW and I have every right to now about it. " I said that the point was she was still keeping secrets from him.

This started a very long discussion with the girls. Eventually everyone agreed that she was keeping secrets from him, but about half took her side that it was "OK" to keep things from the past secret. The other half agreeing that if she trusted him then she needed to tell him about her past, which she resolutely refused to do. The final consensus was that she needed to stop focusing on the "secret" aspect, as long as she was keeping secrets from him, and just admit that she had an acceptance issue.

Eventually they went to couples therapy which didn't work because she just would not accept that part of him.They got divorced, she met a "real man" who eventually abused her. It was just a mess. The point is most women I know have some sort of secret they keep from their SOs. I know more about my friends than their SO's do. It is amazing to me that I casually discuss things with my friends that they would never ever tell their SO.

But I do have to take the wifes side on one thing. This is pretty major and should have been brought up before marriage. Because she is forming her opinion of the man she is marrying based on what she knows. Dont' think, though, that this is exclusive to CDs. For instance my ex wife told me recently that her current hubby of 20 years has no idea who she really is or of her wild teen/early 20s. She has no plans to talk to him about that as she does not want to be divorced again. It is more common than you might think for SOs to have secrets.

[Paulie Birmingham]

I think there is another aspect to it. The wife doesn't know where it ends. If it is just a little cding at home it's one thing. But the wife thinks husband is going full transition it's quite another thing. And There are those on here who think that path is inevitable.

[NancySue]

I guess I?m out of the loop, but what does WIFEY and NIMBY mean? Thanks, someone. I agree with Paulie. Who knows where it?s going? In review, some responses have been from various orientations....straight, gay, bi...I know...who cares, but they are different when it come to cding. One public bane...assumption....all cders are gay....no we?re not! Some have full support...some DADT...some none. My wife supports me dressing...with one provision...I tell her immediately, if my orientation changes....which I suppose could happen, but, so far, nothing, other than dressing is my world.

[Dutchess]

I agree with Paulie and Roberta here .. 100%

I don't care what anyone does at this stage of my life as long as it doesn't hurt anyone , that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to hang out with you though . That goes for many things . Some behaviors in this world are like what the heck !?!?!?! but hey as long as it doesn't injure anyone ..
In my case it's because I am not a very straight person , I never have been so I cannot judge .. at all .. sometimes MY behavior has been outlandish also .

Everyone has hard limits , they just do. As far as CDing I cannot tolerate extremes ( except for Docs pict o stories , I LOVE Docs pict o stories) . If you are being authentic fine but I am not into caricatures of women with alt personalities and fake voices .



As for fish , I was raised on an island in Texas and I love to deep sea fish and will eat anything that swims .

[DianeT]

I guess I?m out of the loop, but what does WIFEY and NIMBY mean?

Hi Nancy Sue, NIMBY means Not In My BackYard, meaning you can be tolerant to something when it affects others, and less when it affects you, such as the installation of a mobile telephony antenna in the neighborhood. E.g. you like it in others' backyard but don't want it in yours. When used in a pejorative way it equates to saying that someone is a hypocrite (others can get the burden, but not you), so it can be offensive.
I have seen this acronym used for wives that consider themselves accepting of crossdressing as a practice but do not want an husband who does it. In my opinion that doesn't qualify as NIMBY because these women probably never pretended that crossdressing was good for any couple but theirs. They are just saying that they have no problems with guys crossdressing in general, and that doesn't mean they have to accept it in their own couple. Rhonda Jean summarized it well in the first line of his post in that thread.
WIFEY is just Wifey (the Wife character in a couple, the other one being Hubby). I just found it funny to "uppercase" it to balance NIMBY.

[confused_cathreen]

Technically toleration is something you acknowledge without acceptance.

A few years ago one of my GG friends was complaining to the girls about her husband coming out as a CD. She was very bitter about it. Which surprised us. When asked why, her answer was that he had hid a secret from her and therefore she could not trust him. When I asked her if her husband knew that in College he had been in a ltr with a woman for 2 years, and had been a very promiscous stripper for 3 years; she said "No, what does that have to do with anything?". I told her it was the same thing, she was keeping secrets from her husband. The response was interesting. She said "No, completely different. That was in the past and he has no business knowing about it. This is NOW and I have every right to now about it. " I said that the point was she was still keeping secrets from him.

Secrets are never helpful but I can see how someone might not want to go through the extend of what they DID in the PAST. Crossdressing is/will be PRESENT and FUTURE. And although trying to get your head around what your partner might have done once or multiple times in the past can be tough, especially if it clashes to who you know your partner to be now, it is a thousand times harder when you are taking about something that your partner was doing yesterday/wants to do today and every day/year/decade. You are trying to compare apples and seaweed here. It's not the word "secret". It's the concept of (from your side) secretive behaviour, of hiding, of lying, of avoiding family trips so you can "get your girl on", of possible sexual incompatibility, of biting your tongue when your wife is openly going clothes shopping and she asks you if that looks good on her, with a healthy dose of (from your wife's side) "wtf" when she discovers it/ you tell her, after years of thinking she knew everything about you. "Everyone has secrets" is poor rationalisation from those doing the secreting.

@Devi,
I am happy that you wanted to report macho comments but I totally disagree with you here. As a GG I found your post mysogynist. Your vision of women is outdated. Women are not all emotion and men are not all reason ! (Sorry I don't change my mind during the night more often than any human being) Patriarchy assigned Culture to men to ensure their power and assigned Nature to women (poor ones, they are not able to think by themselves, they are fragile and versatile...) to ensure control of them. In reality, women AND men are under hormones control. By the way do you know that scientists demonstrated that testosterone isn't correlated to violent behavior ?

Totally agree with Miel, Devi, nothing Diane said was misogynistic or macho. I think your view of women is skewed and slightly fairytale-ish. The balance between emotion and logic is something we all employ when trying to make decisions, men and women alike. If you think you are being only logical in every decision you ever made, I think you need to look harder. Crossdressing is not a logical act. With the whole subtext attached to it (I don't agree with it, btw), the consequences to life and family, with the self-loathing I have seen many here struggle with, it's not logical. It's a highly emotional act, littered with emotional mental reactions. That's why it's impossible to answer the question of "why you do it?" Every answer I saw here started with "because it makes me feel..." There are many I have seen trying rationalisation (makes me more empathetic, easier to talk to, calms me down when stressed etc) but to a purely logical mind, all of these things can be counteracted by alternative methods. I have met exactly 0 women who need clothes to experience any of the above mental states. It exclusively happens to crossdressers. So, to a non-crossdresser male or a GG, it is impossible to empathise. I invite you to stop trying to assign logic and emotion to men and women. They both happen by humans.

[Gillian Gigs]

The expression I grew up with was, "I like Smoky the Bear, but I wouldn't want my sister to marry him"! Acceptance is your sister marrying Smoky and you move on with everything being ok. Tolerance is your sister marrying Smoky, you don't go out of your way to see them, but you will be nice to them when they come over to visit. DADT, is never seeing your sister and her husband, you never talk about them, you didn't go to the wedding either.

It is amazing how people can move from acceptance, to tolerance, to prejudice, depending how close to home the situation becomes. CD'ing is one of those things that can stir up a lot of emotions, so I think it is unfair to look at your wife reaction based on outside evidence. That is not to say that she may change her mind after time of getting used to this new reality. Fear is a major driving force in this world, your wife needs time to process all of this information, and rebuild her trust level with you.

[DianeT]

My wife is allergic to fish!!!

I totally support your wife Stephanie. She can join the forum, we can create a special section for it and at least CharGG and myself will empathize with her and give her advices about how to handle these tricky situations when the SO wants to microwave seafood, which padlocks work best to prevent this, etc.

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Acceptance is your sister marrying Smoky and you move on with everything being ok. Tolerance is your sister marrying Smoky, you don't go out of your way to see them, but you will be nice to them when they come over to visit. DADT, is never seeing your sister and her husband, you never talk about them, you didn't go to the wedding either.

Nicely put. And may I add, NIMBY is going around telling that having a sister married to Smoky is cool, and the day your sister marries Smoky refusing to see her and her furry hubby.

your wife needs time to process all of this information, and rebuild her trust level with you.

I guess she does. I hope she will.

[BLUE ORCHID]

I guess that I am in the middle, MyWife knows about everything, She just don't want
to see me while I am dressed.

We have a great working DA/DT I stay with in my boundaries and life is great. >Orchid .oOOo.

[DianeT]

We see each other now and she sounds the same as before, but she never reciprocates in calling me to see how I am, or to invite me over, which she always did, or to watch a movie. Maybe someday?? I hope!!??

Allie I hope you get a chance to talk with her and let her tell her feelings towards you. And for you to explain that crossdressing doesn't change your love for her.

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I guess that I am in the middle, MyWife knows about everything, She just don't want
to see me while I am dressed.

We have a great working DA/DT I stay with in my boundaries and life is great. >Orchid .oOOo.

That is more or less what I am aiming at with my wife. But it is still a big pill to swallow for her.

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Usually the people that claim they are tolerant really aren't.NIMBY proves this in spades.

Tracii, tolerance and acceptation have of course varying levels. But my point was that not wanting a crossdresser husband/SO doesn't invalidate the fact that a woman can be tolerant about crossdressing. She just doesn't want to engage in it with her own couple. To me, NIMBY doesn't equate intolerance.

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Totally agree with Miel, Devi, nothing Diane said was misogynistic or macho.

Pheeewww

[AllieSF]

Thanks Dianne.

For the record, I started out as a CD and loved every moment of it, and I did it because I liked it. I just took each step along my path and eventually got to the point where I knew what I was and needed to inform those that needed to know, family, friends, neighbors and acquaintances all over the place. When I came out to my kids, and later everyone else, I came out as Transgender and Trans, because even though those words mean the umbrella term for all of us and does not specifically narrow it down to Transsexual, which I am, these words are easier to digest by the general public. I did that about five years ago and have been full time for about 3 years now. Also, when I came out I came out verbally and only went full time much later. I wanted them to have time to digest it all before presenting fully as a woman, the woman that I am.

So, when I use NIMBY I also sometimes use "head buried in the sand." My daughter accepts gays, lesbians and trans people as existing and having every right to be themselves. However, now that it is in here yard, her Dad that is a woman, she has refused to talk about it no matter how much I tried. We have lost that close connection that I loved and now miss so much.

Also, I am a very late starter at everything, just getting interested in crossdressing at age 60 in 2007. So, I really had no long past secrets about this. I was and still am, single, retired, living alone, so my secrets were about what I did in my own free time, and was nobody's business because it in no way affected them, until it could because of my new identity and intended full time presentation.

I have been on this site since 2007 and have seen so many of these conversations over the years. They are good to have because they help a lot of people understand the situation from many different points of view. This thread is a very good one because we have some GG points of view, which were generally lacking in the past. My main concern when I read these threads is that we tend to focus on the reaction of the spouse and get opinions both ways stating one is lying and the other is being intolerant and unreasonable. I always wonder why that after the initial shock, a couple of weeks or months, the uninformed SO then refuses to talk with his/her partner to discuss what needs to be done, what is the path forward, do we need professional and qualified third party support and so on.

So, based on my 13 years on this site I always wonder why not! I would guess that there are more DADT or worse situations than those where both parties work for a successful future for both whether together or not. So, in the case of the MtF spouse refusing to talk about it all, at that point who is not working to make things better and why not? That is my daughter. If we can't discuss her feelings, and me mine, we can be together but not be at the same time.

Since the divorce rate in the USA is around 50%, I would guess that percent of good versus not so good marriages for members of this site is similar. I also believe that communication is the key for any successful relationship and maybe these figures also indicate the about 50% of the members here who are in a relationship are either good or not so good communicators. To communicate in a relationship means that both parties talk about a lot of things including issues in their lives, together or when away at work, etc. If one cannot talk about the small issues they probably cannot deal with larger ones. That was basically one of the major issues in my failed marriage of 21 years, way before I started CDing.

So, if it is NIMBY, Head in the Sand, or something else, what happens if you cannot talk about the issues involved and reach some sort of plan for the future because one party refuses? Who is the guilty, uncooperative paty? I think that is what a lot of these threads are trying to say, I am trying but not getting any cooperation and what can I do.