To say that we crossdress because we can't find color in men's clothes is not accurate, in my case at least. I just really like wearing women's clothes! It touches a side of me that any clothing made for a man can't. I agree that in most everyday situations, men don't have the choices that women have. But there is a lot of color and opportunity for self expression in men's clothing nowadays.
Diane, don't forget that Flugel wrote his book only about 20 years after Freud came up with "penis-envy". Great strides have been made in psychology since then.Originally Posted by DianeT
As to emasculation, pay attention to the fantasies expressed by many CDers here, if they can find a way to express their fantasies without being too graphic. If you read between the lines you will find that the concept of emasculation is rather appealing to many of our members.
Reine
WOW! And to think that all these years I thought I just liked wearing female clothing.
I may need to get some over the knee boots.
It's getting a bit deep for me.
[QUOTE=ReineD;4694966]But why would you want to dress in a way that shows more of your body and makes you look vulnerable as a sexual object. Most women are wanting to move away from that ... unless of course they want to look sexy.
Are you saying that if a woman wears women's clothes it makes her look vulnerable as a sexual object?
No, but there's a time and place for everything. There's a difference between the clothes I might choose to attract a man vs what I wear on a day-to-day basis.
My comment was based on your description of the clothes you enjoy. Almost everything you mentioned shows off the female form. And not all women's clothing show off their body parts.
I see short shorts at the gym or beach, but not so much around town unless it is on a little girl. I seldom see Tshirts with a too low neckline, as you mentioned. The women I see around town seldom show any cleavage. Spaghetti straps also show more of the body than regular tank tops. High heels do enhance the look of legs and I seldom see women wearing them any more. They're not comfortable and they're not very good for your back. As to obvious bras, really I can't see the bras on most women that I come across. Most people I know don't wear sheer tops or tops so tight that you can see everything underneath.
So if you like to wear short shorts, plunging necklines, high heels with skirts or dresses (are they short too?), and if you like it when your bra is visible, then it reads as if you want to show your body.
I'm sorry if my comment offended you.
Reine
This has become way more serious than I had intended just meant it as a fun little thought to think about. I know they are women?s but who can blame us 😉 😁
I won't comment on the whole of this because most of it would just come down to the two of us having different viewpoints. But I find the comment about dresses and skirts "signaling accessibility" to be very problematic. It seems to disrespect both men and women.Gosh I knew this would devolve into "women can wear pants and so why can't men wear skirts" again.
I agree with the other GGs. CDers wear women's clothes because they want to, not because there isn't variety and color available in men's clothing ... because there is.
Except that women have hips bigger than their waists, which men don't, making men's pants unsuitable for women's bodies. And if dresses for men were a part of the western clothing culture and widely available, women still couldn't wear them. There would not be enough room in the chest area, and the hip area would be way too tight. Dresses purchased in men's stores simply would not fit.
... and most CDers would still want to purchases their dresses from women's and not men's stores, even if the colors and the fabrics were the same. :D
No. It was rather like, "Screw it! (No pun intended) I will wear clothes that DO NOT signal accessibility ... because I am independent and strong, just like you. I can vote now. I am not chattel.
That interpretation just begs too many questions...
- After claiming or being given the option of wearing pants, why would any woman publicly signal accessibility by wearing a dress?
- Why would any self respecting man stand by while his wife "signals accessibility" to the world?
- Why would any parent allow a daughter to be put in a dress?
I have never looked at a woman in a dress and felt like she was accessible to me and I have never seen my wife and daughter as having signaled accessibility by wearing a dress.
I fully understand the superior functionality of pants for anyone for day to day living. And I would also add that a dress causes a certain vulnerability that pants do not cause. But, to attribute that vulnerability as a "signal" just doesn't seem to pan out in any practical way.
Last edited by Bea_; 05-22-2024 at 10:30 AM.
To be loved but not known is comforting but superficial. To be known and not loved is our greatest fear. But to be fully known and truly loved is, well, a lot like being loved by God. It is what we need more than anything. ~ Timothy Keller
The idea of dresses and skirts signaling accessibility actually came from my SO. A few years ago we went out to dinner. I was wearing a blue-jean skirt just above the knee and a not-tight Tshirt, with sandals that had a 2" chunk heel. I noticed that men were turning their heads as I walked by. I asked my SO why men would notice me more when I had bare legs. He said it was because I was wearing a skirt, which in their imagination signaled accessibility. I always knew that men looked at women who either showed their legs, cleavage, or wore tight clothes to emphasize the female form, but it had never occurred to me that skirts removed a barrier in a man's imagination.
So I suppose your argument is with another CDer and not me. And to be clear, of course men are different ages and also have different levels of libido, and so not all men would look at a woman that way. But a significant number of them do.
EDIT
I can understand why this knowledge would not be intuitive for a CDer, since CDers when dressed like men have not experienced, from teenage-years on, being looked at appreciatively by guys.
But I've noticed that many CDers dress as if they WANT to be looked at appreciatively by guys and this has always puzzled me, since they profess to be hetero.
... hence my question in this thread that started this facet of the discussion
Last edited by ReineD; 05-22-2024 at 01:24 PM.
Reine
I think you are talking of different things. Bea of dresses, any dress, Reine of short and tight-fitting skirts and shorts. I remember some literature from the seventies that I read as a child where the author would rant about pantyhose replacing stockings in women's attire. It spoke about gams in stockings being so much more beautiful as a view than the dreaded sausage skin (as Char here would put it), but quickly enough it boiled down in fact to pantyhose making it more complicated to have sex. So, accessibility? Definitely a thing in men's eyes. Maybe in the back of their mind, but there all right. So I don't think it is disrespectful for men and women to talk about it. And like Reine said, you haven't been raised a girl, and wearing a skirt when raised as a girl is a whole universe of rules and commands and fears boys haven't any clue about, CDer or not. Char often mentions the frustration of not being able to climb trees while the boys could, my wife would tell you about little boys trying to lift little girls' skirts because they very well understood what accessibility meant. We may wear dresses but that won't make us girls, and we'll still view the world with boys' eyes and ignore or dismiss the feelings of grown up genetic girls telling us their side of the story.
Back to the OP, in this type of debate I fully agree with my wife when she says that we just want to chose from the women's aisle because we are crossdressers. All the rest is just rationalization. A good example in my case, my wife offered me to buy skirts designed for men. I declined because I need the skirts to be designed for women or they won't appeal to me. I am not into the clothes. I am into the essence of femininity that I perceive in the clothes. For this reason, heels, pantyhose and tight-fitting tops and skirts or dresses will appeal to me. Because they are the opposite of what I'd typically wear as a man. Because they're sexy? No, I feel I can be sexy too as a man in men's clothes. Because they make me look fragile? Ding, yes that one rings a bell. Women dressed in form-revealing clothes look more like sexual objects than their more casually dressed sisters. They seem more "accessible" to my man's preying instincts, or education has told me this was exciting, I don't know. But it does something to me, like it does to most men as far as I can tell. So, do I want to reproduce this and be a sexual object when I dress? No. I just want to immerse myself in a sea of female cues that are definitely, unmistakably out of the common male experience. Do I want to dress as a fragile, a submissive thing? I suppose this can be a kick for some members given some testimonies I read here. But for me, the attraction a woman dressed like this can exert on me isn't fragility but power. And her attire isn't a weak shell exposing her forms but a battle suit. And that is what I feel when dressing, I want power and I want style. I want to walk in the shoes of these women who impressed me and get some of the vibes I imagined they could feel when I contemplated them. It's much in my head, though. I have a photo of my wife getting dressed and putting on her boots for a party and she's splendid to look at. But she didn't feel it at the time, she was just getting dressed, you see. Me, I see a goddess ruling the world of men, and certainly not a fragile thing offered to males' desire. But again, that's me, and what was in my wife's head at that point was probably just how to get the damn zipper up without pinching the leather.
For the same reason, when I do MIAD (man in a dress) sessions with my wife, I tone down the dressing, wear sometimes a male top, but the most rewarding experience is when I wear female clothes from top to bottom. Because I am a crossdresser, and I get good vibes when dressing in women's wear, whatever the cuts, colors and fabrics.
Last edited by DianeT; 05-22-2024 at 06:27 PM.
oh yass girl, women have way better clothing choices than men
Ladies & Gentlemen, HER. 💋🌸💗
men don't really have clothes that are off limits to women. If a woman wanted to wear a male Jock strap, there would be no reason for it. It would kind of be like a man wanting to wear a bra. There would be no reason for it, so I think that could be an apples to apple's comparison beyond that I can't really think of anything else that would be so exclusively male It would be Way out of place on a woman. If she wore it. I mean, maybe underwear with the slot in it. Maybe that's something else. I'm focusing in that area because those are parts She doesn't have so she wouldn't have a need for something that benefits what she doesn't have. It's he same way if one of us wears a bra we have nothing to fill it. (Naturally). What's the point? Why would we wear something we don't need. I think more women's clothes are seen in that way. That there's no reason a man would need to wear them.
Last edited by Genifer Teal; 05-22-2024 at 08:05 PM.
Um, I'm a man who wears a bra with a cup size of DD with no forms or filler. So I wear one for the same reasons as do women.
But I'm careful not to allow my bra straps to show as I'm a man.
John
Last edited by JohnH; 05-22-2024 at 11:30 PM.
John (Legal name)
Whoa, really! That one sure touched a nerve! Do we, collectively, actually believe men in general think like that? That a women in a skirt or a dress are worth looking at because she is accessible? I assume that is supposed to mean that a man can easily get a quick little "roll in the hay" because it is faster to just pull up a skirt than having to negotiate a jeans zipper, and that the woman by wearing a skirt or a dress is signaling that she is available for that!Reine: I asked my SO why men would notice me more when I had bare legs. He said it was because I was wearing a skirt, which in their imagination signaled accessibility.
That is terrible!
I sure don't think like that, and having been part of my fair share of "locker room banter", where supposedly anything goes, I have _never_ heard another male say or suggest that to be the case.
I have to also ask, Reine, did that new knowledge make you not wear skirts or dresses in public again? Or are you ok with that just being a thing about men, so keep a safe distance and don't turn your back to any of them?
And a comment on this one:
I will be the first to admit that this is difficult to get your head around, and I think it is the cause of a lot of misunderstanding about CD'ers motives for their choice of dress.Reine: But I've noticed that many CDers dress as if they WANT to be looked at appreciatively by guys and this has always puzzled me, since they profess to be hetero.
Convention would definitely suggest that since a woman may dress sexy to attract a male mate, the reason a male CD'er dress as a sexy female would also be to attract a male mate. Of course, there is some percentage of CD'ers where this is in fact the case, those would be gay or bisexual CD'ers. However, there are also a lot of us, me included, who have no interest in attracting a male. So why do we emulate a sexy female then? Good question and I don't have a great answer, other than it is to be seen as a good looking sexy female, but not for the purpose of attracting a male.
I suspect a lot of females dressing up for a girls night out, also dress up to look their best, but not for the purpose of attracting a male suitor! They may be already in a relationship but not really having any desire to cover up or hide themselves. They dress up because they like to look good, which happens to also be attractive to a male on the prowl. Unfortunate side effect, and the cause of many dismissals.
I believe many CD'ers are in the same category. We like to be admired for our looks, but the desire is really for anybody to think we look good, cute, pretty, not specifically men. The fact that it might get a man excited is an unfortunate side effect, which for at least some of us, would rather be avoided.
In fact, many uncommitted CD'ers have the somewhat hopeless dream of being attractive to a female in the crowd.
Quite simply why I wear dresses is I'm sick and tired of seeing so many people wearing trousers.
John
Last edited by JohnH; 05-23-2024 at 07:46 AM.
Now try to do this in a public toilet wearing pantyhose and a hand bag, no hook to hang the latter, all this without sitting nor touching the filthy seat and bowl. At that moment I guess the sheer variety of colors and cuts in women's fashion will be the least of your concerns... (maybe you'll have teeth marks on the hem, too).
Last edited by DianeT; 05-23-2024 at 12:23 AM.
Absolutely! All my life, I have worn conservative (see note) clothes if I wanted to be taken seriously by men, meaning if I wanted him to pay attention to what I was saying more that having his mind wander, or dismiss me as a "lesser-than" female: at work, or if I was negotiating for a car or any other type of financial negotiation. Caveat, this surely is not the case for the generation that came after me, but when I was in my 30s and 40s there weren't as many women in responsible positions at work as there are now and I did notice a difference in how I was treated by men. Not that they were rude or anything, but I wasn't dismissed so easily. So I kept the skirts and dresses for evenings out. Over the years as the style of dressing became ever more casual, I wore fewer and fewer skirts, as do the majority of women that I know. And now that I'm past middle age, I've become invisible no matter what I wear.
Note: by conservative clothing, for lack of a better adjective, I mean clothes that don't distract. Not-tight slacks, loose fitting blouses, jackets, neutral colors. I did wear heels (pumps with chunky heels, not the sexy type of shoe) under my slacks though. In heels I'm almost 6 feet tall and towering over most men also helped to gain respect, in my opinion.
Last edited by ReineD; 05-23-2024 at 12:34 AM.
Reine
Suzie do you mean that when men like what they see, there is nothing sexual in it?
Yes, I agree. I've done it myself, many times. Although I didn't want to send those signals at work or at other times when I wanted the guy to see me as his equal and negotiate with me seriously (as mentioned above), honestly I think it's hard wired in us to feel good when a man looks at us. It's as if it's a confirmation of our ultimate purpose in life, which is to attract a male so we can procreate. Basic instincts of survival of the species, right? I say this in VERY general terms. And I've never thought ill of a man who thought me attractive, in fact I've always felt flattered. It's an affirmation of being a woman (and I love being a woman), in much the same way that a man feels flattered when a woman finds HIM attractive.
This is why I still think it weird that hetero CDers want to dress in a way that men find attractive. Surely they don't dress that way to please women? Because I don't know of any woman who is attracted to skirts, legs, boobs, derrieres, etc, unless of course she is lesbian.
Reine
There is a word that describes perfectly why some men enjoy wearing women's things that don't have any function for them like panties and bras. And, women don't wear men's things for the same reason.
FETISHES!
Rene, that's the same reason I like dressing as a realistic, sexy female. It excites me to see her in my mirror and photos and know she's me!
That I'm occcasionally hit on by men who I'm not interested in can be annoying but sometimes flattering!
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
What I've learned from this thread:
It's stupid of me to wish I could wear a pretty, soft, floral print tank top in public when there's a pink button-down uncomfortable dress shirt in the men's section for me to wear.
All men, when seeing a woman (or a man) in a skirt or dress fantasize about having sex with said person.
If a woman wears something more revealing than what the standard man wears, she's asking for it.
Good to know. Thanks for the education. (<-- dripping with sarcasm.)
I have worked with many women over the years who were in middle or upper management positions, and I have definitely heard that said before. And to be honest, I have also seen it happen and seen how women sometimes had to work harder for recognition. On the flip side, I have also worked with women who were more sensitive to this than they should have been, getting a lot more respect than they perceived they were, and who were expressing grave concerns about it, which actually worked against them. So a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy.Reine: Absolutely! All my life, I have worn conservative (see note) clothes if I wanted to be taken seriously by men, meaning if I wanted him to pay attention to what I was saying more that having his mind wander, or dismiss me as a "lesser-than" female
I was brought up to believe that everybody are equal regardless of their gender, race and so on, but I am of course not blind to the fact that this is not yet how the world works.
I do agree that things are shifting and that generations younger than us are doing better at "leveling the playing field", for lack of a better term. I am hopeful that this will continue, and have no reason to think it won't.
But my question to you was if that specific moment when your SO at the restaurant told you that men consider a woman to be "accessible" if she wears a dress or a skirt, if that statement from your SO changed how you dressed from then on in similar situations? Have you heard this from any other men?
What I am troubled by here is the thought of a woman being considered accessible because of certain clothing. Is she more attractive if in a dress or skirt, is she more attractive if showing her body more, yes that might be the case to some (probably most) men, but is she more accessible, that's what I struggle with.
My personal opinion is that this is not what goes through most men's minds.
I hope this makes sense, and I would love to hear from some of the other GG's here to understand if there is a common belief that "accessible" is a thing.
This is really separate to the reason I chose to comment on this thread, and we have had this conversation many times, and will again, but let me offer a comment.Reine: This is why I still think it weird that hetero CDers want to dress in a way that men find attractive. Surely they don't dress that way to please women? Because I don't know of any woman who is attracted to skirts, legs, boobs, derrieres, etc, unless of course she is lesbian.
This is the million dollar question, why would a hetero male dress in a way that is known to attract a man, if not for exactly that reason. Why do we dress as we do? I completely agree that it is weird.
I can not explain it, and I haven't heard a good explanation to this yet. Personally I dress up to look as much like a woman as I can. I do not, as some others do, wear a dress because the fabric is softer, I wear it with all the other things I put on to emulate a woman's figure, her posture, I change my mannerisms, the way I walk, sit, talk, everything. All to best possible show myself to others as if I was in fact a woman. But, I have absolutely no interest in attracting a man. It does not make sense to me, but I feel driven to do this.
I have said many times that it would be a lot easier to understand, both for myself and for others who see me, if I was gay and that attracting a male partner was the goal of this, but it is simply not the case.
Being recognized and paid a compliment by anybody, male or female, young or old, is very desirable, but it doesn't go beyond that.
I do think part of it, for me, has to do with a desiring to be "one of the girls". This may be totally false, but I perceive there to be a very different closeness between women than there is between men. The male side of me is constantly in a competition with other men about .. everything! I dislike that. I feel women have more of a genuine camaraderie and personal friendship that goes beyond what men do. I want to be part of that! I can not call up any of my male friends and say "I feel really sad today, I need to just talk to you about this for a little while", but I feel I could do that with a girl friend, except as a man I can't do it, I would have to first be accepted as one of the girls.
And as for relationships, I do think a lot of hetero CD'ers actually hope that a woman in the crowd will find him attractive when he is dressed as a woman! We know there are women like that, they are rare, but they do exist. Odd's are low, but there is a chance.
No that is not the point I am trying to make, Diane. My point is that men, in general, are not looking at two women walking in to the restaurant, one in jeans and one in a skirt, thinking "If I get a chance, I will grab the one in the skirt because her choice of clothes signals to me that she is "accessible". I do not believe that to be true.Diane: Suzie do you mean that when men like what they see, there is nothing sexual in it?
Last edited by Suzie Petersen; 05-23-2024 at 08:40 AM.
CDers: Wear what you like for whatever reason that you like. I don't care. If you like soft clothing, cute things, short skirts, heels, ... go for it. If you like men or women commenting on how you "look", good for you. If you think to yourself, "who can blame us", that's your prerogative.
However, when young teen women were/are socialized, they are put in an uncomfortable position of being gawked at, through no fault of their own. We were forced to wear dresses to school - back then - and no matter how conservative we dressed, we were subjected to cat calls, rude sexual innuendos, and the like. It was extremely uncomfortable. (This is my take on Reine's comment of being "accessible" or vulnerable, basically in the eyes of those calling out to a poor young girl just trying to get to school.) Sometimes, that feeling never leaves us.
Grown men and women in dresses most likely choose to dress that way. They have the maturity to handle being called out, the sexual innuendos, and maybe expect or even want that attention.
Last edited by char GG; 05-23-2024 at 01:20 PM.
I had quite a response earlier this morning to this thread, which I deleted when I realized it might have come off a little too strong. Still I've been totally triggered by some of the semantics of this thread.
My wife is a good barometer/mirror. If I'm having pink fog and can't do anything but think about crossdressing, she tells me to stop what I'm doing and put on what I'm feeling the need to wear. She then engages with me normally. When I get stuff in the mail, she is excited for ME. In discussion she says she doesn't see me as a female, or trying to "seduce men" or "dress for men's attention, she just like the look of obvious delight and pleasure I'm radiating when I try on a new skirt, or show off a new outfit I just bought. She could care less, but indulges me in every flavor when I need it the most.
She doesn't "understand" it, but totally accepts that part of me without question or judgement.
I guess I just got triggered by whet felt like judgement. If you don't understand us, fine. But saying if we dress "a certain" way, we're trying to attract men and why would we do that if we're not gay?
That's really not fair or accurate. It's important for us men in relationships to have our wives/partners at LEAST accept us. I see many posts from some where that is not the case and I also see many posts from women here who don't understand our feelings at all.
Which makes sense, because sometimes I don't understand what I'm feeling. I'll just say this.
When I'm dressed in my male clothing I feel "normal"...when I crossdress I feel "divine" aware of every stitch, every pull, every rustle. Two completely different realities.
I crossdress for MY pleasure and happiness.
It's OK for you to not understand, culturally many GG's have had to deal with "men" around their sexuality and what they wear their whole lives.
Last edited by SylphDevine; 05-23-2024 at 12:33 PM.
I don't think there is anything shocking or offending in Reine's observations. My wife made very similar ones when I came out to her and explained to her how I dressed, i.e. like women archetypes I had in mind. Like
many wives she questioned my sexual orientation for dressing like an attractive and stereotyped girl (heels, wig, makeup...). These are legitimate observations and questions, and they stem from very rational lines of reasoning. GGs don't say these things to offend anyone. They are simply trying to understand something that we can't understand ourselves, they project themselves in our situation and try to walk in our shoes, imagine our motivations for doing what we do. They do this based on their background as genetic girls raised as such, and I believe that they sometimes get it right, and sometimes wrong... simply because they are not crossdressers. I dress like an attractive woman (to some extent). I do it in my privacy, and don't fantasize on seducing males or anyone. It is just for me, it makes feel good. I don't think I'll ever be able to explain it fully (but nothing wrong in trying), but that doesn't really matter, as long as I know why I do it, in the sense of what I want to achieve, and like SylphDevine, I just do it because it makes me happy. And my wife and most GGs I suppose will never get it because they're are not crossdressers or fetishists. But they can accept it even if they don't comprehend it, and that's well enough as a gift for me. That doesn't prevent my wife and I to keep trying to crack the mystery. I'm always interested in what GGs have to say about it, because it brings me (us) new ways of analyzing this proclivity, and it is a riddle that is interesting to try to solve, with a principal subject always available for scrutiny. We should welcome their observations and questions. It enriches our quest for answers, at least for those interested in pursuing it.
Diane,
I agree with you that it is perfectly understandable that GG's and our individual wives in particular, would question our motives when we express a desire to dress and act as an attractive female, or however close we can get to that goal.
But again, that really was not the point of my reaction a few posts back. It was specifically the use of the word "accessible" in connection with certain items of clothing that I found to be troubling, because it, in my mind at least, suggest that it was more a practical consideration of "ease" and also the thought that the person wearing such clothing, dresses and skirts specifically, was presenting themselves as available for an advance.
It triggered memories of hearing the terrible "What was she wearing? Well she was asking for it" which is just horrible nonmatter how you cut it, and I hope we as a society are moving away from that thought as fast as possible. That should never be an acceptable defense.
It is important to remember that this was not Reine suggesting this, this was her SO explaining how this was a typical reaction from men watching her wearing a skirt. That is what is concerning to me. Is this really true? Do men in general believe this?
I have not heard other men say that and I hope that is not the way men generally think.
So that is what I am curious about, do men actually think like this, or was this a little bit of an over interpretation of men just being men and thinking that a woman wearing a dress or a skirt is a little more exciting to look at, than one in slacks or jeans.
You are in a very fortunate situation, Diane, in that you have the opportunity to discuss this with your wife and get immediate and personal feedback. I understand that it is not quite as simple as it sounds, but you do have a good communications channel, and I am a little envious of that to be honest.
The rest of us benefit from your interactions, and I am certainly thankful for that, since it does provide a lot of insight.
I too am always interested in what GG's have to say about this, and the fact that we have several GG's here on the forum is an amazing thing which I hope nobody is taking for granted. They each have their reasons for being here, some of which I am aware, and some I am not, but the fact that they are willing to provide feedback is invaluable to many of us.
I do at times feel that if we are not able to explain ourselves to these women who are willing to listen, how are we ever going to be able to explain our needs and desires to our own SO's, who may be much less willing to listen.
Anyway, main point from me in this debate is about the use of the specific word "accessible", and I hope we can get maybe a little more clarification on that.
Suzie
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