Why tons of M-to-F's and so few F-to-Ms?

[Kieron Andrew]

Sorry to jump in so late on this thread but this comments sparked a few thoughts for me. I work with a couple lesbians at my work ( though I think one may really be a FTM). I think because they all dress down, ( don't wear makeup, hair is scraggely..etc) they are automatically thought of as lesbians, though I know the one girl talks about having a penis once in a while.
I think for her it might be easier to just accept being a 'lesbian' than being a FTM, because everyone is ok with that. It's much easier to be in a territory that everyone has accepted for a while, than to try and branch out and announce I'm a FTM. I may be wrong about that but it's just my :2c:

Thats exactly what i did for years, everyone saw me as a lesbian........until one day, i found a support forum purely by accident 2 years ago, which was predominantly an mtf forum, at that time i didn't know any existed and up until recently didn't know ftm boards were out there until i came across this one

[CaptLex]

Sorry to jump in so late on this thread but this comments sparked a few thoughts for me. I work with a couple lesbians at my work . . . they are automatically thought of as lesbians, though I know the one girl talks about having a penis once in a while.

I think for her it might be easier to just accept being a 'lesbian' than being a FTM, because everyone is ok with that. It's much easier to be in a territory that everyone has accepted for a while, than to try and branch out and announce I'm a FTM. I may be wrong about that but it's just my :2c:

Never too late to jump in, Stacy. You're right that most people automatically assume all masculine women are butch lesbians (even they do sometimes), which also makes it harder for those of us who don't identify as lesbians to be visible. And I think many FtMs who are or have been part of the lesbian community find it harder to transition (if they're so inclined) because of the negative feedback some get from that community, so your comment: "it might be easier to just accept being a 'lesbian' than being a FtM" is very true.

[Marla S]

Start a new thread for it, Marla - and pray that people keep it clean so we can discuss it without it getting locked. :p

Here it is and I hope it will stay clean. But maybe it is less dramatic and spectacular than I thought.

[melissaK]

On the subject of reporting differences between mtf and ftm, and the suspected under-reporting of the ftm's, I came across this article courtesy another MTF board about reporting differences between gg and gm on depression. Traditionally gg's report depression much much more often than gmen. Now, they think its really about the same. Social role differences distort the identification of the problem.

http://www.rd.com/content/openConten...ontentId=31861

So, 'Lissa what exactly is the belabored oxymoronic point you are trying to make?

My point, oh impatient one, is this:

"We are still learning about the many differences between F's and M's that hide their similarities."

[Maggie Kay]

Consider that when women dress to be attractive we all know what that means. Attract men. Women are the embodiment of sexuality. Sexy attire shows off their features to the male who is programmed visually to respond. Does a male know how to dress to attract women? Most don't know what women are attracted to at all. What can he wear to get the female to notice? I'm certain that there is something. It is said that military uniforms did it in the past. If males dress in ways that signal other males in ways that women do, we notice. It just doesn't happen the other way around. This is the one way street of crossdressing. If, for example, a male dresses in women's clothes that are basically women's cuts of male styles, is he crossdressing?

[Angela E.]

Maybe it is because we are chemically altered females anyway , but I do agree that the choice of clothes shoe's etc is so much greater , and the female has a much greater level of self expression .

Maybe without knowing it.We all start out as female in the womb.I think testosterone doesn`t imprint as it should, to varying degrees,in people like us, hence transgenderism.-Angela. :be:

[Casey Morgan]

I must be missing something, but I don't get the argument that women already wear traditionally men's clothes so it isn't considered crossdressing.

The only thing you're missing is the failure to get the point that you understand. In other words, you aren't missing anything. Intent is king (or in our [MTF] case, queen).

[SlenderGurl]

I thought I'd get an education when I posed my question, and I did. But it's clear that even really well thought out MTFs here don't all concur about [U]why[U] there are so many more MTFs than FTMs.

I have a couple more thoughts of my own:

• Our GG poster is absolutely right when she says that a woman who gets into jeans all the time is NOT a FTM crossdresser, because most are NOT intent on feeling like a man. In fact, just look at the incredible array of jeans fashions, all directed at women. And of course many want to wear their jeans very, very tight -- to highlight their feminine shapes.

• The sexual gratification aspect is definitely a driver for many if not most MTFs, particularly when they're younger -- and the testosterone level is highest, not coincidentally. But are FTMs getting direct sexual gratification of some kind from wearing mens' clothes? Certainly ordinary women who get up and go to school or work wearing traditionally male clothes (e.g. pants, T shirt) aren't!

BTW, I have a brand new burning question that I can't wait to pose for this distinguished and wonderfully articulate panel!

[CaptLex]

The sexual gratification aspect is definitely a driver for many if not most MTFs, particularly when they're younger -- and the testosterone level is highest, not coincidentally. But are FTMs getting direct sexual gratification of some kind from wearing mens' clothes? Certainly ordinary women who get up and go to school or work wearing traditionally male clothes (e.g. pants, T shirt) aren't

I think we covered this (posts #38 and #49), which led to Marla starting a new post about the differences between male and female sexuality.

[CaptLex]

We agree I think. My post was poorly worded. What I don't understand is people using the fact that women wear traditionally men's clothes already as a reason for there being fewer F-M's.

If I understand your question correctly . . . the reason is that many women wear the clothes because they like the clothes and are comfortable in them (same reason why some men crossdress), not because of gender issues, which makes those of us who wear male-styled clothing because of gender issues more invisible.

Men who wear women's clothes for non-gender reasons still stand out, however, and are not invisible like some of us. Does that make sense?

[Billie2day]

There have been many answers to the lack of numbers in the f to m members.
One of the reasons I cd is stress relief my job now and when I was in the corp world involved making desisions all the time. Traditionally men were the decision makers and woman were guided through life by her husband, father ect. Men were also in control, the higher the position the more people they controled. Hence stress is much higher in men. Results, higher rate of heart attacts, high blood press. alcoholism ect. It is no wonder that large numbers of them bounced to the other end of the scale for stress relief. This is reflected in the comments by the f to m members in the theads. The number of influential men who are submissives in the B & D and cross dressing areas is very high.. (I am having a time trying to explain this but I will push on.) Today there is a much higher portion of gg in positions of power and influence. where will they go for stress relief?
the bar, drugs. poor things they do not have the harmless activity of cding.
I suspect they too will take the avenue of less stress go home and let the husband make the desitions, get dressed up and have a girls night out, go shopping, worry they becoming to much like the men they work with or boss.
or go to a beauty outlet and be pampered. We are both alike in this way and in a roundabout way that is why there is more M to F members than F to M. Billie

[Casey Morgan]

We agree I think.

Sorry, that read better in my head. We do agree. No, the "problem" is that you get that it's about intent, which is why you don't get that arguement.

Ooof, it's too late at night for me to keep thinking. Brain. Shutting. Down.

[Robin Leigh]

Oooh this thread's picking up with some great stuff now! Liking it...

Maybe the real question is... why so many crossdressers and so few transexual?

Maybe. If we follow the "hormonal wash" theory, that could be explained if a little bit of feminization will result in a boy being TG enough to CD, but it takes higher levels of estrogen at the right times to create the full "woman in a man's body" syndrome that most MTF TS people have.

Maybe it's not that FTMs and MTF's are so different... perhaps it's that crossdressers and transexual are different (although naturally they overlap). Perhaps we shouldn't be "divided" by our mtf/ftmness but by our particular transgender status.

Yes, adding all the "garden-variety" MTF CDers to the TS numbers skews the statistics.

But whatever, I think that all of us transgender folk (whether a mild crossdresser, a crossdresser, genderqueer, transexual etc etc, any one of the many things throughout that huge and amazing spectrum,) are comrades, and should be united by a respect for each other and people's individual transgenderism.

Definitely, Pocoyo!

Oops, almost forgot I wanted to address this too . . .

You're absolutely right, Robin. There's a lot less of a sexual connection to crossdresing for FtMs than there is for MtFs (not that there's anything wrong with that). I won't say it doesn't exist at all, but I think it's very rare. It's almost always about gender identity and expression.

Thanks for the confirmation, Captain!

Would be interesting to discuss this a bit more in detail, because a recent report on male and female sexuality made me think that this might not only be due to the hormones, but also due to the physical function.

I tend to agree, Marla, and will expand on this in your new thread.



Robin

[Jere Oneil]

I must be missing something, but I don't get the argument that women already wear traditionally men's clothes so it isn't considered crossdressing.

Of course it isn't. Otherwise, every woman I know would be CD.

From my perspective as a MTF CD (and I would guess many others) it goes far beyond the clothing. The clothing is only an outward expression of trying to be feminine. That's why most of us adopt feminine names. If women traditionally wore pants and men skirts, I'd want to wear pants I'm sure.

I guess that what I was trying to say is that since women now wear men's things as a matter of course, it would be difficult for a woman to ever be perceived by others as a crossdresser, unless,she told them or something. I actually think it takes away from the overall experience for them. I would think that MTFs wouldn't enjoy it as much if skirts and dresses became part of a man's everyday wardrobe either. Maybe, this would make a good topic for discussion.

[Marla S]

I must be missing something, but I don't get the argument that women already wear traditionally men's clothes so it isn't considered crossdressing.

The point you missed is "traditionally".

Tradition and history doesn't count. Something is CDing if it is CDing now, here, today. The actual connotation of clothes is what counts and not the connotation of the past.
Pants are today accepted as women's wear and are labeld as such (before that, it has been crossdressing).

If tomorrow seamed stockings become acceptable for men, I am sorry to say, you are not a crossdresser anymore. You have to watch out for something else that is not accepted for men yet, if you still want to be one, you have to buy the clothes by the label "women's wear".

[CaptLex]

It doesn't explain why there are so few FTM's on this board. Or to take it a step further, why many more men undergo sex changes than women.

Well, some of the reasons for less FtMs on this board is that it's a one-in-a-million site, whereas MtF sites are closer to a dime-a-dozen. In other words, hard to find . . . hard to believe it exists. Another reason is because when I (just using me for an example) told anyone that I was more comfortable in pants, short hair, flat shoes (and love ties) and very uncomfortable in skirts, heels and long hair, people would say stuff like, "That's okay, honey, that doesn't make you different. Just wear what you like." So, I didn't realize just how different I really was for a while. I know that may sound like the ideal comment to those of you who get flak for crossdressing, but it really does hinder awareness of TG issues.

As for your comment that "more men undergo sex changes than women". If you're referring to SRS, the reason for that is that medical science is nowhere near giving us what we really need. If you're referring to lesser changes, I'd say the numbers are a lot higher than you may think.

[CaptLex]

I guess that what I was trying to say is that since women now wear men's things as a matter of course, it would be difficult for a woman to ever be perceived by others as a crossdresser, unless,she told them or something. I actually think it takes away from the overall experience for them.

Yup, I agree.

I would think that MTFs wouldn't enjoy it as much if skirts and dresses became part of a man's everyday wardrobe either. Maybe, this would make a good topic for discussion.

Give it a shot - start a new thread about whether men would still wear skirts if it was no longer considered crossdressing. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but we have new members and new info everyday.

[janedoe311]

We are all HALF female, Men XY and woman XX. Once the ovaries develop in the first few months after conception, it depended on the hormones they make and how much that determines the brain “sex”. Too much testosterone or other male hormones) in a XX , and you can masculinize a girl. Too much growth hormones can masculinize also.

Not enough testosterone or too much female hormones in a XY baby and you will feminize the brain and or body.

(In lab test if they remove the testicles in a baby rats it behaves like a female its life, without female hormones! So it seems that we are by default female! It takes male hormones at the right time to make a boy brain.)

It is now believed that without the “burst” of male hormones at the right time the brain and some of the body will “Stay” female.

Then there is the XXY, XXXY and varations. It is probally alot more common in transexuals than thought because it is expensive to have the test. Tula is XXY and had to fight in UK court to be excepted (papers changed legally) as a woman despite the proven intersexed "birth defect".

(I seem to remember she said when she got SRS they found partially developed ovaries in her! Despite this the religious and the Pope, still say that it is wrong to have a sex change and it is just a mental problem!

Next the social reasons. It was mentioned that women cross-dress all the time, they are more passable, a false beard will cover up that female face. They can have male jobs as managers and be aggressive, (get out their male side).

No one gives a butch dike in short hair and male clothes a second look on the street. But a man in a skirt (with taste) or even a kilt will get looks and giggles, threats and hostility and even be turned down for service in restaurants.

Not to say FTM do not have their problems but they can pass easier and that is half of the battle to be accepted and to get that release that we need.

Also what the mother does to herself will change it. Pregnant women were given hormones during pregnancy to "help it". Also alcohol,drugs, coffee, smoking was not the taboo it is today. My mother no doubt smoked, drank wine and coffee and no doubt took aspirin during her pregnancy, so we are all messed up.

So it seems that a male could be seen as a birth defect since things have to be perfect to get a male!

[Robin Leigh]

Anyone interested in the genetic factors of intersex conditions and gender variance should take a look at the TS Roadmap site. This article, by paediatric endocrinologist, Dr. Charmian Quigley, is a good place to start. She is both a clinician & a scientist working in the forefront of the field.

Robin