Believable theories on Cross-dressing

[Brenda_fish]

For me, knowing WHY won't make a big difference in my dressing but I am very curious nonetheless.

Scientifically, there is a lot we do know about gender issues and there are things we do not know. It is well known that many characteristics related to sex arise in response to spikes of hormone levels during particular windows of time during development. Relative levels of feminization or masculinization can result from genes (that encode hormone synthesizing enzymes and hormone receptors), or simply developmental accidents. It is reasonable to hypothesize that issues of sexual orientation, or even the tendency to CD, may also be affected by such factors. Enviromental (i.e. social) factors probably also play a role. Right now there is not a lot of compelling evidence to to explain these particular attributes one way or another.

However, we should not assume that science CANNOT explain these things, rather that the explanation is not YET known. It may never be known, but I don't think that justifies abandoning science altogether. I'll continue to be curious.

That's just me,
Love,
Brenda

[jete2_ballet]

What about this.!!!
There are 5 girls and 2 boys in my family.
The 3 first born were female then myself then my brother then 2 more girls.
Strangely but instinctively I often have thought my parents were struggling to have males then I came along (not quite fully male).
I, without wanting to sound full of ego, have a soft beautiful face that I am told belies its age by about 14 years. I haven't as yet made a full attempt at impersonating a female but feel I would be very convincing.

People seem to be very confused with me as to my sexuality and I dont 'let on'.

Some have said I am slightly androgenous(not sure about that).

The point to this is instinctively I have felt although born a boy there was hormonal influences that produced feminine traits.

Whatever hormone makes a male new born manly was lacking in my instance.
This is what I 'feeeeeel' is right for me.

xxxxxxxxx's

[Robin Leigh]

I lost my father when I was very young, too young to really remember him. My mother remarried within a few years, but my step-father often worked night shift. So I fit into the "absent father" category. And I had 3 sisters & no brothers, so I was often surrounded by females at home.

However, I don't believe that these things caused my TG tendencies. I believe that it's a combination of genes & the hormone interaction in the womb that creates the TG potential. The environment I grew up in certainly provided influences that shaped my gender identity, triggered my TG development and affected the form of my TG feelings & activities. But environmental influences cannot affect the core gender identity.

The main evidence for this view comes from the intersex community. For several decades, intersex births in the Western world were treated as a medical emergency, as if the baby had a life-threatening condition. Specialists would be rushed in, and often babies were subjected to immediate genital alteration. They could be put on a course of hormones for life, and possibly subjected to further surgical procedures. They would rarely be told that they were born intersex.

The most modern approach to intersex births is to wait & see, using surgery &/or hormones when and as necessary to help the individual develop in the direction they want to go. Unfortunately, in many places the old attitudes & methods still prevail.

Sometimes, a little surgery is all that's required to make ambiguous genitalia less ambiguous. But since a functional penis is a lot harder to construct than a vagina, in many cases these babies are made into girls. Sometimes this works, but there have been many cases where it has been a dismal failure. Even with hormonal assistance, you can't force a person into a gender which doesn't match their core gender identity.

There have also been cases of non-intersex & non-TG boys being turned into girls after bad penis accidents. The most famous case is Brenda/David Reimer, who I gave links about earlier in this thread. His parents tried their best to treat Brenda like a girl, but it never really worked. At his core he was always a boy. Even though he had no memory of having a boy's body, he never felt comfortable as a girl, and clearly had gender identification issues throughout childhood.

So environment can't make someone TG who wasn't born with the potential, or vice versa, but it will certainly affect how a TG person feels about gender. If we grow up in a supportive environment, then surely we will come to accept ourselves a lot faster than if we grow up in fear, shame & guilt.



Robin

[Chantelle CD]

For me, knowing WHY won't make a big difference in my dressing but I am very curious nonetheless.

Scientifically, there is a lot we do know about gender issues and there are things we do not know. It is well known that many characteristics related to sex arise in response to spikes of hormone levels during particular windows of time during development. Relative levels of feminization or masculinization can result from genes (that encode hormone synthesizing enzymes and hormone receptors), or simply developmental accidents. It is reasonable to hypothesize that issues of sexual orientation, or even the tendency to CD, may also be affected by such factors. Enviromental (i.e. social) factors probably also play a role. Right now there is not a lot of compelling evidence to to explain these particular attributes one way or another.

However, we should not assume that science CANNOT explain these things, rather that the explanation is not YET known. It may never be known, but I don't think that justifies abandoning science altogether. I'll continue to be curious.

That's just me,
Love,
Brenda

Why does one have a desire for a hobbie, and become very good at it, and yet others no matter how hard they try, can not come close to having there talent. What makes a singer voice so beautiful, yet i can not carry a tune, even if i tried and took lesions, we are born with gifts, and talents, cross dressing is such a talent and gift.

If there is any way that i could explain such talents, i would say that if one ever desires something, so strongly, really really wants it, dreams of it, thinks about it regularly, it will become a reality. I for one, remember as a young child, looking at pics of woman, my sisters and mother,ect, and desiring to be like them, as a small boy, i remember doing this, and look at me now!! The stronger you want it, desire it, the more powerful it becomes in you. I am a very strong believer in ....."Dream it to make it"

How many of us remember doing this, before they ever wore a stitch of clothing?

Chantelle

[sterling12]

Everyone that I talk to has a different story. Different ages of onset, different progressions, different destinations for each person.

No scientific data, but I believe we are all part of a very broad transgendered spectrum, probably all a part of the same group. This includes T-Women, TS, and perhaps effeminate males.

Although CD is not a disease, I can relate it to research done trying to find a cure for Cancer. We once thought Cancer was one disease, now we know that it is probably hundreds of diseases, with many different causes. Each Cancer different, but with the same result, uncontrolled cellular growth.

If they ever find the reason(s) for Crossdressing, will they ever find a "cure?" Seems very doubtful, as the proclivity to dress seems to be just about impossible to extinguish, unlike phobias and compulsions.

Current thinking for Professionals who actually work with the phenomenon is to help The Crossdresser find acceptance and learn coping skills for dealing with the problems. GENDER DYSPHORIA is no longer considered to be a psychiatric disease. In fact, wish they would drop the Dysphoria Moniker. DYS in medical parlance means "Bad", as in Dysrythmia.

Now go back to your research! But remember, "why" is often a conundrum!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Rita B]

Very much so Ashleigh, and I am a prime example. I don't know if I ever posted a pic of me at age 3. Check under pictures titled"My New Hairdo"


Rita

[Satrana]

Sometimes this works, but there have been many cases where it has been a dismal failure. Even with hormonal assistance, you can't force a person into a gender which doesn't match their core gender identity.

Robin, your two sentences contradict each other. If sometimes it does work then clearly it is possible to force gender identity.

In fact there are dozens of botched circumcisions on male babies all around the world that have resulted in baby boys being turned into girls and none of them ended up like the David Reimer case. They accepted their new gender without the issues that arose in the Reimer case. Indeed there was a boy who lived in an adjacent town to where Reimer lived who also had his penis removed as a baby and is now a happily married woman.

Furthermore there are several societies including most notably the Polynesian island societies where boys were chosen to be raised as girls, again the new gender was accepted by the boys.

So there is a tall stack of case studies in which boys were successfully turned into girls verses the David Reimer case. There are fairly obvious and simple ideas to explain the Remeir case by these cannot be examined since he killed himself.

All this strongly suggests that there is no such thing as a central core gender which cannot be altered.

Now we crossdressers rarely have such external factors play a role in our lives, we are the ones in control and we were the ones who "choose" to be what we are.

[Robin Leigh]

Robin, your two sentences contradict each other. If sometimes it does work then clearly it is possible to force gender identity.

I believe it sometimes works because some people (like us) are more flexible in their gender than others. David was obviously not born with TG potential.



Robin

[Marla S]

In fact there are dozens of botched circumcisions on male babies all around the world that have resulted in baby boys being turned into girls and none of them ended up like the David Reimer case. They accepted their new gender without the issues that arose in the Reimer case. Indeed there was a boy who lived in an adjacent town to where Reimer lived who also had his penis removed as a baby and is now a happily married woman.

I am not an expert here, but when I read the bold parts, I get mixed feelings.
Given that there is something like a core gender identity (flexibel or not), what do we know about the issues and happiness.
Not every TG is a potential suicide (survival instinct is probably the strongest instinct we have and it is likely that it covers other needs), happiness is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I thought I'd know what happiness is (actually I was a bit disappointed), but after I was able to accept myself another stage was ignited.

What do we know about all these people that are not happy with their life ?
Is it only the job, the money, trouble with wife/hubby and family ? Or might there be some that try desperately to adjust to the gender norms, but fail and don't even know why.
(We all here know that thinking about the own identity is a very difficult and exhausting subject which requires some intellectual potential not to get lost. Not everybody is gifted this way, and some that are might "find" other ways to deal with it.)

Does it need clothes to be TG ?

[battybattybats]

What do we know about all these people that are not happy with their life ?
Is it only the job, the money, trouble with wife/hubby and family ? Or might there be some that try desperately to adjust to the gender norms, but fail and don't even know why.
(We all here know that thinking about the own identity is a very difficult and exhausting subject which requires some intellectual potential not to get lost. Not everybody is gifted this way, and some that are might "find" other ways to deal with it.)

Does it need clothes to be TG ?

Some very good points that really bear thinking about.. and not just TG issues either but all the other socially unacceptable things that get repressed.

[Marla S]

Batty, thanks a lot for your nice words.

I just have seen a documentary about children and the development of their personality.
And there was a statement spoken that fits in a bit here.

"He shows classical feminine behavior.
Hopefully it will not become oppressed by the peer pressure when he joins a boys gang during his adolescence. He might become a new type of man"

(...... or a crossdresser :D)

Precisely they spoke about one of identical twins (7 years of age).
He and his twin brother were in a room with "typical" girls toys.
While his brother tried to make something "boyish" with the toys, the respective boy jumped right to the baby dolls and started to dress them in a very careful way.

Neither the parents nor the psychologists had an explanation for the different behavior (not only shown in this experiment, they said).
The parents said they bring them up identically, they see the same, they have same experiences.
The doctors said their testosterone level is identical too.
"They are just different, we don't know why"

It wasn't mentioned if there is some preference for clothes (he didn't look girlish), which is not necessary, because for me this would be an example for TG without clothes.

Hopefully this boy doesn't have to suffer in the future because he acts too girlish.

[Joni Beauman]

I'm reading a book called Brain Gender, written by a physiologist (she specializes in the complex physiology of gender), that provides some interesting insights for the miriad array of possibilities for variation along a gender gradient. Many can be attributed to developmental phases when gender is determined from gonads identical among XX and XY fetuses. Apparently we stay XX phenologically unless androgen hormones are not blocked by other hormones - and there are a great many variations in hormone balances that lead to variation in outward and interior expression of gender. Anyway, the data presented in the book, not written too technically for non-scientists, supports the notion of a gender gradient based on multiple pre- and post-natal hormonal experiences. As to theories, I think there is a biological basis. Whether this is genetic or physiological may be a chicken and egg sort of question and doesn't much matter except I doubt cding is a "condition" that can be shown to be trasmitted through genetic lines. I guess that leads to the hormone wash hypothesis, but with secular leanings. Joni

[Satrana]

Neither the parents nor the psychologists had an explanation for the different behavior (not only shown in this experiment, they said).
The parents said they bring them up identically, they see the same, they have same experiences.
The doctors said their testosterone level is identical too.
"They are just different, we don't know why"

I recall reading another case study on twins in which one became a crossdresser and the other not. Since both had the same genetics, the same hormonal experience in the womb and the same living conditions at home then the only sensible explanation is that transgenderness is based on nothing more than what type of personality you are born with, how this fits in with what society expects of you and whether you decide at some point during your childhood to stay true to yourself or whether you let gender conditioning castrate your feminine side.

Unfortunately for boys, the choice to stay true forces them into the dark closet where their transgendered personality gets corrupted and twisted by fantasies and new found sexuality, instead of being expressed as a normal personality trait in a welcoming social environment. The end result is a secretive shamed crossdresser who is not recognizable from his simple, humble beginnings as a healthy routine boy who just happens to like things which society, in its ignorant wisdom, has deemed taboo.

This tool we call crossdressing is based on nothing more than personality traits - our likes and dislikes - which become ingrained into our being as we grow up.

Imagine for a second you loved to eat strawberries as a child. But society said at age 10 you were now prohibited from eating them anymore. Is there not a likelihood that some people will find this rule silly? that everytime they see a strawberry the fact they are forbidden to eat it will grate against their consciousness? will some not eventually choose to ignore the rule and sneak into a strawberry field late at night when nobody can see them? And when they taste that strawberry, it will be amazing because of all the emotions that have been condensed into the thought of eating one.

I find it odder that people have to seek weird and wonderful theories to explain the fact that we desire a certain look for ourselves. This is just normal routine humanity folks! To me, this is like someone using hormone wash theory to explain why they like cars so much. Nobody needs theories to explain our love of cars so why do we need theories to explain our choice in clothes? This is just who we are, the only odd thing is why society is so intolerant of diversity among people.

[Marla S]

I recall reading another case study on twins in which one became a crossdresser and the other not. Since both had the same genetics, the same hormonal experience in the womb and the same living conditions at home then the only sensible explanation is that transgenderness is based on nothing more than what type of personality you are born with ...

I agree, but having a scientific background, folks like me will search for the cause of that personality we are born with. The womb wash hypothesis might be an option, if you assume that there is a non equal distribution of nutrition and probably hormones in the womb even for identical twins.
I. e. usually they are not born with identical size and weight. Hence their development is very similar but not identical in the womb. Why should the personality be ? And it is a fact that the personality is different for identical twins, it doesn't usually effect the gender identiy though.

Unfortunately for boys, the choice to stay true forces them into the dark closet where their transgendered personality gets corrupted and twisted by fantasies and new found sexuality, instead of being expressed as a normal personality trait in a welcoming social environment. The end result is a secretive shamed crossdresser who is not recognizable from his simple, humble beginnings as a healthy routine boy who just happens to like things which society, in its ignorant wisdom, has deemed taboo.

Exactly

This tool we call crossdressing is based on nothing more than personality traits - our likes and dislikes - which become ingrained into our being as we grow up.

Agreed. But I would go a step further. It's a corrupted tool and a tool of corruption. I don't think that we would see the split-personality approach or some fetishism like episodes, if we wouldn't have imbibeb the corruption from our infancy.

Imagine for a second you loved to eat strawberries as a child. But society said at age 10 you were now prohibited from eating them anymore. Is there not a likelihood that some people will find this rule silly? that everytime they see a strawberry the fact they are forbidden to eat it will grate against their consciousness? will some not eventually choose to ignore the rule and sneak into a strawberry field late at night when nobody can see them? And when they taste that strawberry, it will be amazing because of all the emotions that have been condensed into the thought of eating one.

I agree again.
My favorite example here are odors or parfumes.
I don't think that there is a gender specific preference for certain odors.
Nevertheless someone got the idea that odors have to be split in odors for men and odors for women.
Men got the one's of a rotten piece of leather, burned wood, chem Lab, a sharp cleanser or, if it is more a unisex odors, that of a citrus fresh dishwashing liquid. The more flowery and sweeter odors are for women.
Actually this is complete nonsens, and I know it, nevertheless my corrupted soul hasitates to buy the parfum I like because it is labeld "for women".
When I bought it I am overwhelmed because it's labeled "for women".
What a corrupted crap !!! :Angry3:

I find it odder that people have to seek weird and wonderful theories to explain the fact that we desire a certain look for ourselves. This is just normal routine humanity folks! To me, this is like someone using hormone wash theory to explain why they like cars so much. Nobody needs theories to explain our love of cars so why do we need theories to explain our choice in clothes? This is just who we are, the only odd thing is why society is so intolerant of diversity among people.

Well, searching for a theory for something that doesn't fit to the rules is normal routine humanity too. But because the human psyche and personality is a black box (for scientists and oneself) the causes of an effect might lie in the complete opposite direction.

But you are right, it becomes pointless, if the society and we start to accept personalities as they were born. The How is by far more imporant than the Why.

I am slightly optimistic that progress can be reached there (maybe not during our lifetime though)

[Satrana]

I agree, but having a scientific background, folks like me will search for the cause of that personality we are born with. The womb wash hypothesis might be an option, if you assume that there is a non equal
distribution of nutrition and probably hormones in the womb even for identical twins.
I. e. usually they are not born with identical size and weight. Hence their development is very similar but not identical in the womb. Why should the personality be ? And it is a fact that the personality is different for identical twins, it doesn't usually effect the gender identity though.

I grew up with identical twins as good friends. I never had any trouble telling them apart physically but everyone else did. Ok they are identical, I understand that part. What I did not get was their personalties were complete opposites. One is highly excitable, full of energy and enthusiasm, always asking questions, always talking. The other was quiet, laid back, and seemed disinterested in life. This made it very easy to tell them apart if people could get over their physical similarity.

How can identical twins end up with such differing personalities? Well I don't know how personalities are produced. I am happy to accept that when you put billions of cells into a brain and these have billions of connections between them, then the normal element of randomness that is part of the evolutionary process of species diversity will always produce unique brains which will exhibit unique personalities. Thats as far as I need to go.

All I know is I am a completely normal human being who just happened to be born with a personality matrix that conflicted with the artificial concept of social gender rules in the 20th century. What makes me different is that the gender conditioning did not fully take hold during my upbringing. I subconsciously rebelled against it in the same way teenagers subconsciously rebel against authority. It is a normal human condition to want to express yourself and not be told how to think and behave so the two mechanisms are the same.

Gender rebellion starts earlier in mid childhood when we are expected to begin mimicking adult behavior, many children go through a phase of doubts and issues most clearly observed in tomboyish behavior in girls.
Authority rebellion starts later when our minds and bodies have grown to the same level as adults and we feel ready to compete.

The important thing to remember is that teenager authority rebellion is a new development in our society. Prior to the 1950s teenager rebellion was not tolerated by society, teenagers already had adult responsibilities so they did not have the luxury of doing things their own way. The same was true of gender, you did not have a choice.

But recently with the growth of leisure, self-development and individualism, more and more people are demanding their rights not to conform and to have choices how they will live their lives. Our liberal society encourages the uniqueness of our personalties to be taken into account. Fortunately I am living at the right time to take advantage of this.

It's a corrupted tool and a tool of corruption.

Great quote! Hits the heart of the matter like a hot knife through butter.:drink:

[tiffianycd]

I heard these theories before and I think they dont work like what Ruth said about them. I am a man who dresses as a woman. I have an Identy issues or I am plan crazy I do not know anymore. I think in my head I am a woman and I feel like one but when I look at myself I am a man.
My mother told me along time a go she wish I was a girl and not a boy and she wished me dead. sad but true. some may say I dress to gain my mothers acceptance but I dressed long before then. I had gone to counsling and the only thing I was told is to go through with the uerges till they pass or fight them. I right now. I had already doing both.
tiffianycd

[phoenixgurl]

I started to dress when I was young. I don't know what caused me to but it seemed right and I just stuck with it. as for the theory behind crossdressing it seems possible that those could be possible reasons but I have a feeling the world may never know

[Sheri 4242]

Wow! This just goes on and on. Nevertheless, I find it all very fascinating.

It's fine to have an attitude that simply says "I am what I am" -- and it's fine to say one doesn't like labels. But, that shouldn't stop me -- or anyone else who is likeminded -- from reading, studying and researching.

To have meaningful discussions on what we read, study, research and learn, we need to be on the same page with regard to defintions, otherwise it would be too easy to talk at cross-purposes which would perpetuate gross misunderstandings.

Ashleigh, when I'm not in a dress, I'm a scientist, and I know a theory when I see one. I didn't see any in that link you posted. There's some techno jargon but no coherent mechanism proposed.

Both theories are interesting however there is little to validate either one. Sadly there is a lack of research in any topic related to human sexuality.

The links, however written, were a whole lot MORE than mere jargon!!!!!!! Personally, I am more familiar with the research on the hormone bath wash than any other. That said, there is some illogical jumping to conclusions going on. The hormone bath is discussed in leading medical books and scholarly journals, as well as leading psychology and psychiatric books, research reports, and professional journals!!! Pick up any survey-level textbook on psychology and you will find literally hundreds of scholarly cites, in re valid research on human sexuality.

I'd be willing to wager that one book in particular (which relates to diagnosis and therapy) can be found in every doctor's office in the States, it being considered that authoritative. (Thankfully, its suggestion on therapy regarding CDing is aimed at acceptance and accomodation and not at any cure. And this is backed up by dozens upon dozens of highly reputable scholarly publications in medicine and psychology. Marina and I may have some slight "technical" disagreements from time-to-time, but obviously we are both reading and assessing much of the same current research, its various interpretations and implications.)

The research on the developing brain (size comparisons of certain specific cell clusters within the brain) and crossdressing is cutting edge, yet associated with, and possibly linked to, the hormone wash. This is science!!! The research is real and highly documented -- validation is by ongoing degrees!!!

If it is genetic then shouldn't crossdressers have more crossdressing children?

No, Jennifer (to answer your specific question). Any study of genetics shows that some genetic characteristics often jump generations, while other traits pass to the next generation depending on the mix from the other influencing source. In genetics, you could have one dominating source influencing CDing, but the outcome has to consider the dominate and recessive traits provided by the other partner!

Likewise the "hormone wash theory" has the same problem. When twins are born--fraternal or identical--then they must have been exposed to the same womb and same mother's hormones. Yet you seldom find two crossdressers resulting from such births.

Fraternal twins develop independently -- but the identical twin question raises more of a perplexing situation. It is known that one fetus draws at different rates and degrees from the mother than the other . . . and what can and cannot pass the placental barrier also plays a role. Even position in the womb raises certain questions -- if one fetus is dominating and pushing the other, it can pinch off (slow down or otherwise effect) blood flow, oxygen, and even hormonal flow.

In the main, I guess we really aren't talking about theories -- we're talking about scientific medical phenomenon. IOW, it happens but we can only theorize about the hows and whys, which is to say reasonable hypotheticals; some of us, as Dixie said, find one assertion more believable and convincing than another. One thing that is known is that there is a clear distinction between core gender identity and gender role indentity and this requires us to distinguish between the subjective and the objective, or that which is congruus from the incongruous. A prenatal hormonal milieu DOES occur and determines, to some degree, gender identity. What is unknown is the formation of an unconflicted gender identity and gender role. There is ambiguity within the controlled scientific data . . . for example, most children with gender identity conflicts do not develop into transsexual adults.

Something that I haven't seen noted here is that diagnosis requires the presence of BOTH cross-gender identification (the desire to be, or the insistence that one is, the other sex) AND a concurrent demonstrated, substantial sense of discomfort about one's sex or gender role. This is where the various disciplines come into conflict -- for example, read the DSM-IV-TR, versus the latest edition of The Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy. There is some agreement, yet we are still dealing with the differences between medical professionals and mental health professionals, the latter including some medical professionals.

What does it all mean??? Usually, those who have a greater imbalance in core gender identity tend to be crossdressers; those who have a greater imbalance in gender role identity tend to be transsexual. This isn't just stabbing in the dark as someone suggested. It is presenting real science whose ends have not yet been reached.

Robin Leigh was correct in asserting that it is pointless to debate nature vs nurture. Certainly, nurture influences how & when one's gender diversity will manifest, but you can't make a girl out of a boy.

[Marla S]

How can identical twins end up with such differing personalities? Well I don't know how personalities are produced. I am happy to accept that when you put billions of cells into a brain and these have billions of connections between them, then the normal element of randomness that is part of the evolutionary process of species diversity will always produce unique brains which will exhibit unique personalities. Thats as far as I need to go.

I can live with the "normal element of radomness" as well.
The KISS-rule would apply.

But recently with the growth of leisure, self-development and individualism, more and more people are demanding their rights not to conform and to have choices how they will live their lives. Our liberal society encourages the uniqueness of our personalties to be taken into account. Fortunately I am living at the right time to take advantage of this.

Agreed. Besides all drawbacks we have or imagine to have due to the society's settings, we live in a time and society that is more tolerant than it used to be and than most others societies are.