Believable theories on Cross-dressing

[Marla S]

I recall reading another case study on twins in which one became a crossdresser and the other not. Since both had the same genetics, the same hormonal experience in the womb and the same living conditions at home then the only sensible explanation is that transgenderness is based on nothing more than what type of personality you are born with ...

I agree, but having a scientific background, folks like me will search for the cause of that personality we are born with. The womb wash hypothesis might be an option, if you assume that there is a non equal distribution of nutrition and probably hormones in the womb even for identical twins.
I. e. usually they are not born with identical size and weight. Hence their development is very similar but not identical in the womb. Why should the personality be ? And it is a fact that the personality is different for identical twins, it doesn't usually effect the gender identiy though.

Unfortunately for boys, the choice to stay true forces them into the dark closet where their transgendered personality gets corrupted and twisted by fantasies and new found sexuality, instead of being expressed as a normal personality trait in a welcoming social environment. The end result is a secretive shamed crossdresser who is not recognizable from his simple, humble beginnings as a healthy routine boy who just happens to like things which society, in its ignorant wisdom, has deemed taboo.

Exactly

This tool we call crossdressing is based on nothing more than personality traits - our likes and dislikes - which become ingrained into our being as we grow up.

Agreed. But I would go a step further. It's a corrupted tool and a tool of corruption. I don't think that we would see the split-personality approach or some fetishism like episodes, if we wouldn't have imbibeb the corruption from our infancy.

Imagine for a second you loved to eat strawberries as a child. But society said at age 10 you were now prohibited from eating them anymore. Is there not a likelihood that some people will find this rule silly? that everytime they see a strawberry the fact they are forbidden to eat it will grate against their consciousness? will some not eventually choose to ignore the rule and sneak into a strawberry field late at night when nobody can see them? And when they taste that strawberry, it will be amazing because of all the emotions that have been condensed into the thought of eating one.

I agree again.
My favorite example here are odors or parfumes.
I don't think that there is a gender specific preference for certain odors.
Nevertheless someone got the idea that odors have to be split in odors for men and odors for women.
Men got the one's of a rotten piece of leather, burned wood, chem Lab, a sharp cleanser or, if it is more a unisex odors, that of a citrus fresh dishwashing liquid. The more flowery and sweeter odors are for women.
Actually this is complete nonsens, and I know it, nevertheless my corrupted soul hasitates to buy the parfum I like because it is labeld "for women".
When I bought it I am overwhelmed because it's labeled "for women".
What a corrupted crap !!! :Angry3:

I find it odder that people have to seek weird and wonderful theories to explain the fact that we desire a certain look for ourselves. This is just normal routine humanity folks! To me, this is like someone using hormone wash theory to explain why they like cars so much. Nobody needs theories to explain our love of cars so why do we need theories to explain our choice in clothes? This is just who we are, the only odd thing is why society is so intolerant of diversity among people.

Well, searching for a theory for something that doesn't fit to the rules is normal routine humanity too. But because the human psyche and personality is a black box (for scientists and oneself) the causes of an effect might lie in the complete opposite direction.

But you are right, it becomes pointless, if the society and we start to accept personalities as they were born. The How is by far more imporant than the Why.

I am slightly optimistic that progress can be reached there (maybe not during our lifetime though)

[Satrana]

I agree, but having a scientific background, folks like me will search for the cause of that personality we are born with. The womb wash hypothesis might be an option, if you assume that there is a non equal
distribution of nutrition and probably hormones in the womb even for identical twins.
I. e. usually they are not born with identical size and weight. Hence their development is very similar but not identical in the womb. Why should the personality be ? And it is a fact that the personality is different for identical twins, it doesn't usually effect the gender identity though.

I grew up with identical twins as good friends. I never had any trouble telling them apart physically but everyone else did. Ok they are identical, I understand that part. What I did not get was their personalties were complete opposites. One is highly excitable, full of energy and enthusiasm, always asking questions, always talking. The other was quiet, laid back, and seemed disinterested in life. This made it very easy to tell them apart if people could get over their physical similarity.

How can identical twins end up with such differing personalities? Well I don't know how personalities are produced. I am happy to accept that when you put billions of cells into a brain and these have billions of connections between them, then the normal element of randomness that is part of the evolutionary process of species diversity will always produce unique brains which will exhibit unique personalities. Thats as far as I need to go.

All I know is I am a completely normal human being who just happened to be born with a personality matrix that conflicted with the artificial concept of social gender rules in the 20th century. What makes me different is that the gender conditioning did not fully take hold during my upbringing. I subconsciously rebelled against it in the same way teenagers subconsciously rebel against authority. It is a normal human condition to want to express yourself and not be told how to think and behave so the two mechanisms are the same.

Gender rebellion starts earlier in mid childhood when we are expected to begin mimicking adult behavior, many children go through a phase of doubts and issues most clearly observed in tomboyish behavior in girls.
Authority rebellion starts later when our minds and bodies have grown to the same level as adults and we feel ready to compete.

The important thing to remember is that teenager authority rebellion is a new development in our society. Prior to the 1950s teenager rebellion was not tolerated by society, teenagers already had adult responsibilities so they did not have the luxury of doing things their own way. The same was true of gender, you did not have a choice.

But recently with the growth of leisure, self-development and individualism, more and more people are demanding their rights not to conform and to have choices how they will live their lives. Our liberal society encourages the uniqueness of our personalties to be taken into account. Fortunately I am living at the right time to take advantage of this.

It's a corrupted tool and a tool of corruption.

Great quote! Hits the heart of the matter like a hot knife through butter.:drink:

[Sheri 4242]

Wow! This just goes on and on. Nevertheless, I find it all very fascinating.

It's fine to have an attitude that simply says "I am what I am" -- and it's fine to say one doesn't like labels. But, that shouldn't stop me -- or anyone else who is likeminded -- from reading, studying and researching.

To have meaningful discussions on what we read, study, research and learn, we need to be on the same page with regard to defintions, otherwise it would be too easy to talk at cross-purposes which would perpetuate gross misunderstandings.

Ashleigh, when I'm not in a dress, I'm a scientist, and I know a theory when I see one. I didn't see any in that link you posted. There's some techno jargon but no coherent mechanism proposed.

Both theories are interesting however there is little to validate either one. Sadly there is a lack of research in any topic related to human sexuality.

The links, however written, were a whole lot MORE than mere jargon!!!!!!! Personally, I am more familiar with the research on the hormone bath wash than any other. That said, there is some illogical jumping to conclusions going on. The hormone bath is discussed in leading medical books and scholarly journals, as well as leading psychology and psychiatric books, research reports, and professional journals!!! Pick up any survey-level textbook on psychology and you will find literally hundreds of scholarly cites, in re valid research on human sexuality.

I'd be willing to wager that one book in particular (which relates to diagnosis and therapy) can be found in every doctor's office in the States, it being considered that authoritative. (Thankfully, its suggestion on therapy regarding CDing is aimed at acceptance and accomodation and not at any cure. And this is backed up by dozens upon dozens of highly reputable scholarly publications in medicine and psychology. Marina and I may have some slight "technical" disagreements from time-to-time, but obviously we are both reading and assessing much of the same current research, its various interpretations and implications.)

The research on the developing brain (size comparisons of certain specific cell clusters within the brain) and crossdressing is cutting edge, yet associated with, and possibly linked to, the hormone wash. This is science!!! The research is real and highly documented -- validation is by ongoing degrees!!!

If it is genetic then shouldn't crossdressers have more crossdressing children?

No, Jennifer (to answer your specific question). Any study of genetics shows that some genetic characteristics often jump generations, while other traits pass to the next generation depending on the mix from the other influencing source. In genetics, you could have one dominating source influencing CDing, but the outcome has to consider the dominate and recessive traits provided by the other partner!

Likewise the "hormone wash theory" has the same problem. When twins are born--fraternal or identical--then they must have been exposed to the same womb and same mother's hormones. Yet you seldom find two crossdressers resulting from such births.

Fraternal twins develop independently -- but the identical twin question raises more of a perplexing situation. It is known that one fetus draws at different rates and degrees from the mother than the other . . . and what can and cannot pass the placental barrier also plays a role. Even position in the womb raises certain questions -- if one fetus is dominating and pushing the other, it can pinch off (slow down or otherwise effect) blood flow, oxygen, and even hormonal flow.

In the main, I guess we really aren't talking about theories -- we're talking about scientific medical phenomenon. IOW, it happens but we can only theorize about the hows and whys, which is to say reasonable hypotheticals; some of us, as Dixie said, find one assertion more believable and convincing than another. One thing that is known is that there is a clear distinction between core gender identity and gender role indentity and this requires us to distinguish between the subjective and the objective, or that which is congruus from the incongruous. A prenatal hormonal milieu DOES occur and determines, to some degree, gender identity. What is unknown is the formation of an unconflicted gender identity and gender role. There is ambiguity within the controlled scientific data . . . for example, most children with gender identity conflicts do not develop into transsexual adults.

Something that I haven't seen noted here is that diagnosis requires the presence of BOTH cross-gender identification (the desire to be, or the insistence that one is, the other sex) AND a concurrent demonstrated, substantial sense of discomfort about one's sex or gender role. This is where the various disciplines come into conflict -- for example, read the DSM-IV-TR, versus the latest edition of The Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy. There is some agreement, yet we are still dealing with the differences between medical professionals and mental health professionals, the latter including some medical professionals.

What does it all mean??? Usually, those who have a greater imbalance in core gender identity tend to be crossdressers; those who have a greater imbalance in gender role identity tend to be transsexual. This isn't just stabbing in the dark as someone suggested. It is presenting real science whose ends have not yet been reached.

Robin Leigh was correct in asserting that it is pointless to debate nature vs nurture. Certainly, nurture influences how & when one's gender diversity will manifest, but you can't make a girl out of a boy.

[Marla S]

How can identical twins end up with such differing personalities? Well I don't know how personalities are produced. I am happy to accept that when you put billions of cells into a brain and these have billions of connections between them, then the normal element of randomness that is part of the evolutionary process of species diversity will always produce unique brains which will exhibit unique personalities. Thats as far as I need to go.

I can live with the "normal element of radomness" as well.
The KISS-rule would apply.

But recently with the growth of leisure, self-development and individualism, more and more people are demanding their rights not to conform and to have choices how they will live their lives. Our liberal society encourages the uniqueness of our personalties to be taken into account. Fortunately I am living at the right time to take advantage of this.

Agreed. Besides all drawbacks we have or imagine to have due to the society's settings, we live in a time and society that is more tolerant than it used to be and than most others societies are.