The Honesty Conundrum

I think few would dispute that in an ideal circumstance a CD should be honest about their CDing early on.

Of course theres a lot of things that make a circumstance not ideal that many discuss here a lot already.. self-acceptance, the trust involved in coming out early, the risk of being outted publicly, fear of burdening the family etc.

But I think it's worth considering the broader issue.

If we say a CD should come out to their partner early, despite the dangers to the relationship, family, job, career etc...

Then shouldn't the CD also be honest to everyone? Shouldn't they be honest to Parents, children, siblings, cousins, workmates and on to cover everyone? Certainly some of these relationships are more important than others but shouldn't CDs be honest in all of them?

Shouldn't SO's? Shouldn't they risk their families, their friendships, their jobs even by being open about being in a rlationship with a CD (as well as any skeletons in their own closets)? Essentially if a SO thinks a CD should confess they are a CD despite the risk of others judgement should not the SO be willing to eqaullly share that burden?

But this drives me to a far stronger conclusion than simply avoiding hypocracy.

If an SO thinks that CDs should come out early, do they not have a responsibility to make it easier for all CDs to do so?

So if an SO thinks CDs should be out to them from the outset don't they have a responsibility for working towards transgender civil rights and social acceptance? The very things that would protect their partners job but also make it easier for future CDs to come out to their partners and at least make things easier on the next generation?

And then I consider the evidence that there is a genetic aspect to being transsexual and that the scientists behind many of these discoveries think this will be true for all forms of transgender. Which means that the children of CDs will have a greater chance of being CD/TS...

So then don't SOs have a responsibility to strive for TG rights and acceptance for their childrens or grandchildrens sakes?

This seems to me the consequences of concluding that CDs should be honest with their partners. What do you think?

Why do I have the feeling I'm entering a mine field? :nailbiting: :)


You mentioned valid reasons for a CD's reluctance to tell a potential partner: degree of self-acceptance, trust, fear of being outed or of burdening the family. But you did not mention the biggest fear of all, which is the fear of rejection and losing the partner.

We all know that the culture in which we live is homo/transphobic. Even though this is changing and people are becoming more open-minded today accepting gender and sexual variance, there are still many people who will not be able to embrace the lifestyle, including potential long-term partners. The point of telling her early on in the relationship would be to give her a chance to bow out if she feels this is something she cannot live with, rather than wait until they've fallen in love, or their lives are enmeshed financially and by becoming parents together. And if she has her own skeletons such as a history of physical and sexual abuse, addictions, compulsions, AIDS, etc, she needs to disclose this as well. If her potential CD partner feels he cannot live with her issues, he can bow out too.

I disagree that everyone can and should disclose everything to family, employers, friends, etc, unless the CD wants to live full time as a woman, in which case it becomes a necessity. If the person is a CD and not TS, and wants publicly to have the ability to switch back and forth, or to present always a non gender-binary appearance, and having disclosed this to his wife prior to marriage and having her support, and they both want to disclose to everyone all of her issues too, then by all means they should both share risking their jobs, family, friends, opportunities, etc. as well as taking risks that their children will have a difficult time with it while growing up. Chances are they will find their niche eventually and their lives will be happy, but they will have to prepare themselves for a tortuous road ahead. Some people will make the compromise by going out dressed not in their own backyards, by joining TG groups, by outing themselves to selected people, and contributing to the advancement of the cause that way.

On a different note, there IS a difference between being honest with a life-long partner and honesty with everyone else. We all know that an intimate, connected relationship cannot flourish without trust and honesty about the major issues or conditions. But it is also important ideally for the partners to share long-term goals and similar values, including spirituality or religious beliefs if they play an important part in their lives. If one partner plans to eventually become a missionary in a third world country and this does not fit in with the other partner's long range goals, their relationship will not last. Discussing these issues beforehand would certainly help towards preventing future irreconcilable differences once the flush or initial love has worn off.

As to telling others, maybe I am being idealistic, but there is a bond, a degree of connectedness between two people who choose to share their intimate lives that separates or elevates their relationship above other, more transient, arms-length relationships such as co-workers or friends. Bonds with parents, siblings, or children are deep, but the living arrangements are transient as well. After some 20 years, we do not share our intimate and daily lives with these loved ones. In many cases, people see parents, siblings, and grown children a few times per year. But, if a CD's relationships with family members are close and loving, I do agree it would be best to tell.

And last, considering the possibility of having a TG child, if both partners enter the relationship aware of the possibility I am sure they will be prepared to cross the bridge when they get there and help their child adjust by doing what they can to make the world a more comfortable place in which he or she may live. I would.

Isn't trust and the need for honesty and acceptance also in family relationships and friend relationships? While less intimate isn't the same principles in effect just in different degrees?

And for the next generation of CDs to be able to tell their partners don't GGs have a responsibility to risk their family and friend relationships too?

As for kids, is it good enough for CDs and GGs to just wait and see if their child shows signs of being TG? They could grow up totally closeted and never show those signs.

What if they are not aware of the possibility when entering the relationship and only learn of it reading this thread? Don't they have a responsibility to it starting now?

And what if it's not the direct child but a grandchild or a niece or nephew that ends up TG?

And what about the parents responsibility for the world the child grows up in? We each play a part in shaping the world however small, if we keep things quiet and private are we not betraying those children by negligently failing to act to make the world a little bit more pro-TG?

And what about the responsibility to the whole community? The odds of having a TG child seem greater for a CD but there will definately be TG kids at your kids school either way. So isn't their a responsibility to the other TG kids in the community? What about friends whose kids have maybe up to a 1 in 10 chance of being TG?

By being out to friends and family if those friends and family have a TG kid (whether 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 chances are at least one will!) that kid will likely grow up in a more accepting family, suffer far less and be able to be open to whoever they fall in love with from the start.

And in a related point on responsibility to the family shouldn't all the USA GGs be getting involved in this http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1742318 whether pro or anti CDing simply to protect their own family so that if their husband gets outted he won't get fired throwing the whole family into economic turmoil especially in this time of economic crisis?

No, while I can see that a romantic relationship is special and particularly intimate I don't see that the honesty responsibility ends only there, it's just less but it's still there.

And doesn't the responsibility to the family mean that CDs and GGs too have a responsibility to take these risks and to work on societies acceptance as well as their own?

WOW !

As Captain Barbossa said "There are a lot of long words in there, Miss; we're naught but humble pirates."

Its going to take time to digest both of your posts, but here is my first impression.

Batty: I agree with everthing you said, that would be the perfect way to go, but, we don't live in the perfect world.

Reine: I only dissagree with one thing in your post, "there IS a difference between being honest with a life-long partner and honesty with everyone else", Honesty is the same for ALL.

Here is what I am trying to say, When someone asks if I am a crossdresser, I do not hesitate saying Yes! There are people that know me well, that do not know I am a crossdresser, and I do not feel I am being dishonest with them, they just have not seen, or asked me.

To quote another movie "The Matrix"
Morpheus: There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.
Mouse: to deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human.
Oracle: Do you know what that means? It means know thy self.

The MOST important person you need to be honest with, Your Self !

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Originally Posted by Intertwined

Batty: I agree with everthing you said, that would be the perfect way to go, but, we don't live in the perfect world.

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Yes but I'm suggesting that every CD and their GG SO's too really are obliged to do this.

For the sake of their children grandchildren and other peoples children.

Now that may need to be done gradually and carefully to be most effective, but I cannot find any other conclusion. That a CD and GG owe their family, their children and future descendants and all of society to be involved in making CDing accepted.

That morally and ethically every CD and GG is obligated to push for an Inclusive ENDA ad to make their own community more TG-friendly or they are being negligent and failing their family.

That not doing so is being selfish. Putting ones own comfort ahead of the needs of chidren and grandchildren and the rest of the community.

Certainly everyone can't just come out now without risking their job... hence why inclusive ENDA is a matter of protecting the family! So that accidental or intentional outting doesn't harm the family.

I see no other rational or emotional conclusion.

How many people have you been honest with, Batty? Aren't you in the closet?

Want to know what I really think? I think that's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever read, and I'm sick of reading your goddamn preaching bullshit. What exactly have you done? You don't have kids, you do NOT know the impact it could have telling them. And as for your crap about telling people, well you were literally FORCED to tell your mother, because of the girlfriend you had/have? So don't preach to us about what we should be bloody doing!!! :Angry3: when the only thing you've done is because you had NO CHOICE!!!

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=68929

Batty isn't out? I am pretty sure she has said she has been out and about in previous posts. But I am getting old so maybe I don't remember.

And why is bringing a concept to the boards BS? I would venture that a majority don't read what Batty posts mostly because it does not fit into their closeted lifestyle. I refer back to the poem from WWII about there was no one left to stand up for me.

All that said, about the question at hand. This world would never function under total honesty. Our society has set up boundaries that discourage total honesty. We all know it. The used car guy lies about stuff, we know it. The mechanic fudges on what is needed to fix something, we know it. Politicians promise the moon, we know they are lying.

It would be ideal if we could disclose everything to everyone close to us but we have to analyze how that news will be taken and the repercussions it will cause. People my parents age "know" that any male who wears a dress is homosexual. Truth says just the opposite. What is it 95%+ here are straight or bi (sort of a weasel there tho because bi could be considered homosexual in a way). I kind of like having my parents talk to me but I am certain that my father would not speak to me very often and would limit his visits severely if he knew. He would get over it mostly as long as I didn't shove it in his face every time I saw him but at 78 years old, time is precious. So he doesn't know and probably won't. Ok I am a liar, never said I wasn't (I play poker frequently).

But total honesty to the whole world is difficult if not impossible. All the circumstances have to be weighed. I agree that most CD's over analyze these circumstances and 90% of what we worry about never occurs. But that the way it is. We all have our own reality. Not everything in that reality is real. But the suggestion or thought of losing loved ones over this is a strong motivator to keep quiet. You can always find a new lover (human nature takes care of that) but you will never find new birth parents or brothers and sisters.

So Batty, yes, in a perfect world honesty extending beyond our cloister would be ideal. It would also cause a collapse in the society.

Quoting Garth Brooks ( the great American philosopher that he is)

"Our lives are better left to chance, I could have missed the pain but I would have to miss the dance." So without much detail I will say that my wife kept a huge secret through our life together. Did I need to know, no our marriage functioned fine. Would it have changed things? yes, but I would have still loved her. But the dynamics of the relationship would have been vastly different.

Telling your lover, wife, SO is the ideal. But know things can and probably will change and not always for the better

Oooh Tamara! You really call a spade a spade. I wish I had b***s as big. I bet you're really soft and sweet inside though but whatever you'll get my vote for president

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Originally Posted by Sharon

How many people have you been honest with, Batty? Aren't you in the closet?

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I'm utterly out (as in i've said 'I'm a crossdresser') as a crossdresser to:

Parents, not-lost siblings (we're still searching for one), other relatives I have reasonable contact with except my aunt but she's worked it out already, all good friends (except for 1 who thought i was joking.. he's very transphobic and has big issues.. but I'm working on him slowly), the parents and families of most of my friends, the local member of parliament and several other politicians, the human rights and equal opportunity comission, the local human rights comittee including two professors at the local university, the entire cast of the Womens Comedy Fesitival, all the people who recognised me in the audience of the womens comedy festival or saw me there and have since recognised me or the same walking to a friends place and back full femme, my neighbours, many many shopkeepers.

I am recognisable Transgender/gender-non-conformist to:

Everyone else.

Including I expect everyone reading my posts at the Human Rights Consultation forum http://www.openforum.com.au/NHROC where I'm using my birth name and discussing TG rights issues including my own (hmm though did i explicitly say i was transgender there? I think I did but I could be mistaken. I might just make a point of saying so explicitly tomorrow perhaps) and I was quoted with my birth-name in an online media article about that forum http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.ph...u=_W0DA&ref=mf and also my (false and true) rumuor spreading aunt who has stopped telling people i'm a drug dealer/user (i'm not for the record) as she considers gender variance more juicy gossip. So lots of people have heard by now from millionaires (rich cousins she keeps in contact with), QCs (more cousins she keeps in contact with), judges (more cousins) to the people at the local fish and chip shop. She might even have told an international media magnate if she's still in contact with him... despite her lying she's often believed. Oh and then there's anyone in earshot (she's loud) when she talks to me in town.

Also all the people who attended the local art competition where a combined self-portrait photography/poetry piece of mine about transphobic and other difference-phobic violence where I'm wearing makeup, bleeding and with pink writing all over it mentioning my femininity in the words.

My daily 'male' presentation is now strongly 'genderqueer' and progressively moreso every week. Such as doing my shopping in this http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=108334 and often carry the larger of the bags in this thread on my shoulder http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=94702

Believe me, people notice. Shopkeepers suggest womens things to me and sometimes discuss CDing. I've tried things on in several shops, one only sells womens clothes. One lesbian friend of a friend who I hadn't yet overtly come out to asked me if I'd like something she'd bought for her partner which didn't fit, while she was serving me at the supermarket i might ad. People I pass by occassionally ask one another 'was that a guy or a girl'.

And steadily I'm increasing the people i'm utterly and clearly statedly out to. I'm going slowly partly from my own self-confidance and partly because i live in a rural town with some existing homophobic violence problems and I have no car, it's feet taxi's and buses as my only transport. And being disabled that makes me more vulnerable than average.

Oh and Tamara, while i came out to my parents through fear that my ex was going to tell them out of spite since then i have been continuing because the conclusions i've been reaching have driven me to recognise it's what i should do. And I've been working on my own internalised transphobia in order to do so. I never said the right thing to do was easy.

I'm gradually moving out of the closet. I have lots of old connections still to cover of course. Especially old haunts online i haven't visited much since splitting with my ex that i really should get back to. Hmmm Charles Keller the 3rd of the H.G. Wells Society of the Americas who published my open letter in their journal and used some of my art for it's cover and who I used to debate with all the time. I should get around to getting back in contact with and coming out to him for example.

Thanks, Batty, I stand corrected. I must have missed some of your posts.

You still didn't answer me about telling children? you don't have children do you, you can't tell people to tell theirs, when you have none and have no clue what the impact could be. You can't tell people that they should be telling everyone, because they expect their SO to tell them... it's ridiculous and you know it! So, because Tam told me, I should now go and tell all my family? and if so I could lose them all? are you serious? You're saying I should tell my mum and hope to God I don't lose her? yeah... ok... and then we all went off to lala land and did a happy dance.... do you have any clue what you write? you're seriously so far in cuckoo land with this thread, it's unbelievable!

Hi, I think if we lived in a perfect world then you may have a point Batty but we don't thank god (or whoever). Most people are still afraid of TG/CD because they don't understand it. Even the TG/CD's themselves don't understand whats going on with them. It's a taboo subject in most households and will probably stay that way until people understand it won't harm them.

It's easy for us to critisize, we know about it. If we want it to change then it's up to US to change it not some SO who had it forced upon her. S/he don't understand so will want to keep it secret. I mean, even most TG/CDs wan't to keep it secret from their SO because they're afraid of how they will react. If you really want to change attitudes then this is the wrong place to try and do it, everyone here is biased. Try facebook, my space and that ilk or even a soap box in the local park. Preach to those who don't know about it, educate them, show them there's nothing to fear.

As for me, to be honest I just can't be bothered by it all. I'm accepted where I want to be. Why should I fight for people who don't want helping? people who are 'Just fine thanks in my closet'. If that's their choice then who am I or you to argue.
Stick at it girl (or whatever) you may indeed change the world after all Hitler did.

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Originally Posted by Samantha Kelsey

Stick at it girl (or whatever) you may indeed change the world after all Hitler did.

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LOL.. I'm sorry, but, (and this is offtopic, so I apologise in advance batty)... but Hitler did not change anything, he tried to take over the world and got his ass kicked... and this is off topic, so no more hitler talk... :doh:

What happens in a marriage/relationship, stays in said marriage/relationship.

I see no need to broadcast one's CDing to the world.

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Originally Posted by clayfish

What happens in a marriage/relationship, stays in said marriage/relationship.

I see no need to broadcast one's CDing to the world.

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Well this would be a happy middle of the road thing , being honest to your SO and if possible your family but forgetting about the rest , i could live with that

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Originally Posted by Tamara Croft

You still didn't answer me about telling children? you don't have children do you,

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Nope. The strangulated Hernia of the Testes that almost killed me as a child may have left me infertile. I never have got that tested.

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you can't tell people to tell theirs, when you have none and have no clue what the impact could be.

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Ah but I have lots of friends who do have children and lots of friends have parents. I have one transsexual offline friend who'se been in and out of mental institutions over the last few years solely because after her mother died she realised she never ever would get the acceptance from her mother. Her father raped her and threw her out of the house when she came out. another friend is a psychologist and social worker who deals with children and has also dealth with TG people. The cousin whose a judge?.. family law court, though my conversations with her were on other issues. Another friend is a psychologist who has been involved in several studies on sexuality and the legal sex-work industry in this state as well as the effects of emotionally distant parents on childhood development and they invited me to a party en femme with their entire family and their childrens friends too where issues like coming outas TG or Gay or Goth were discussed. I've also seen the impact of parents hiding their bisexuality from their kids (the sense of betrayel led to an eating disorder), affairs, hiding that the love had gone from the relationship and more.

So I've seen the impact of a lot of things on kids. And perhaps an external viewpoint is useful on such things.

But I was discussing the Moral and Ethical Obligations to TG kids and to the whole community. Your worried about the Psychological Impact on the kids if they are Cis? Maybe the social one too? Those are really good questions!

We know what the impact is on the kids who are TG of Not Telling... Internalised Transphobia, high risk of suicide etc. Just as Gay parents hiding being Gay from their Gay kids has been in the past.

For Cis kids while I doubt any specific TG parenting studies have been done we could look to the effects of gay parents coming out on their straight kids, on gay parent raising kids openly from the outset (of the latter the results are about equal with straight couples but lesbians actually do better) and the age of coming out may well have a big impact as well as degress of local acceptance.

You could of course ask the kids from the Kids Of Trans program from Colage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxBP5Y0vwZQ
http://www.colage.org/

I'd say they'd know better than either of us!

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You can't tell people that they should be telling everyone, because they expect their SO to tell them... it's ridiculous and you know it!

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Why? I said the moral and ethical obligation is the same, though lesser in degree. In essence the expectation of the SO is that no matter how hard it is to overcome the ITP in order to do so the SO deserves to know before becoming too comitted in order to make an informed decision about the relationship. Why is that not the case for all other relationships? CDing isn't entirely sexual or romantic in nature so why should disclosure be exclusive to sexual/romantic relationships?

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So, because Tam told me, I should now go and tell all my family? and if so I could lose them all? are you serious? You're saying I should tell my mum and hope to God I don't lose her?

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One of the most basic principles of ethics and morals is you cannot judge others for not doing what you would not be willing to do yourself (it's part of the ethics of reciprocity). If your not willing to risk your relationships with honesty then you cannot judge others for not having done so with you.

On top of that as the internalised transphobia that causes the closeting in the first place is social in origin those not actuvely involved in undoing it who know of it's existence and therfore have an opportunity to choose to or not become responsible in part for it. If you look for example at the Trolley Dilemma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem which is a central thought-excercise for examining moral/ethical reasoning you'll see that a choice of inaction is still a choice with consequences.

And crucially while no-one disputes both parents have obligations to their family I'm pointing out their family heritage may be trans. It could be said then to be just like hiding that you carry a gene that causes deafness, blindness, epilepsy or schizophrenia from your children even though they or their grandchildren will have a higher chance than normal of having that condition.

And beyond that I'm suggesting we all have an additional obligation to the whole community. The same obligation a soldier has who risks widowing their partner and orphaning their children because the obligation to protect them and their whole country is greater. Same with a police oficer or firefighter. Same as was faced by black men who faced lynching for speaking out for equality. Same that was faced by the Suffragettes (and some of them wrote about this dilemma) who had to chose between risking being imprisoned and denying their daughters a mother or failing to try to have the world those daughters grew up in be better for them.

So in those crucial points it can be argued that protecting the family is the motive.

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yeah... ok... and then we all went off to lala land and did a happy dance.... do you have any clue what you write?

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Yes i do. Moral and Ethical reasoning was my favourite topic since early childhood. My main specialty.

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you're seriously so far in cuckoo land with this thread, it's unbelievable!

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It's entirely possible that I'm wrong. Or only partially correct. But crucially important is where and why i am wrong if I am. Like most ideas in higher-thinking and science etc a person needs to state an idea and then everyone tries and shows how and why it is wrong. If it cannot be shown to be wrong then you have to consider it is not wrong untill someone can find how and why it is wrong.

so I'm entirely willing to accept i could well be wrong. But it's important to know the why and how so as to progress onto discovering what is actually right.

As for Hitler... well H.G. Wells work on Human Rights which led to Roosevelts four-freedoms speech and the worlds reaction to the horror of the holocaust that resulted in the reasonably stable and stabalising UN and all the modern human rights causes which I'm involved in (and better get some sleep for if I'm going to read all these papers before tomorrows meeting) was all a reaction in oposition.. he changed the world by not just failing but by rallying much of the world against his irrational and harmful ideas (remember his Eugenics policy of forced sterilisation was modelled on the American one! and much of the world including Australia and Germany only recognise a TS as their affirmed sex once sterile so that relates it back to TG issues! Especially a parents concerns for the fate of descendants carrying a TG gene!). Though what I am saying has much more in common with Wells than Hitler.

Now Wells.. that's a person whose ides really have changed the world, far more than most people have any clue about.

Edit: I forgot one other important point. I also know what it's like to consider the responsibilities of having genetic conditions that can be passed on as there are two in my family that have been discussed whenever anyone in the family has kids.

The first is a condition where people in my family can fall into a death-like state and be diagnosed by doctors as dead. My aunt woke up twice on the way to the morgue and a cousin had an attack of this in the playground in the last 12 months.

The second is a degenerative eysight condition that my mother has that could effect any daughters I might have if I got the gene where they could have poor degenerating eyesight or, if the mother carries the gene also, be born blind.

My family also lost Gypsy relatives in the holocaust to the Genocide policies of the Nazis.

So you see through my whole life the arguments and ideas about responsibility of genetic heritage both good and bad have been part of active debate and discussion.

Clayfish, isn't that just suppressing things? The more I read things in this forum the more I see that many people "want" to be heard and be respected but they "don't want" to put anything out there for it. Life is risk and reward. If you want to be taken seriously as someone who believes that "we" are an integral part of society then you need to be out there. So many complain on here that no one understands us, but they hide away from the world. I would not understand us either if I wasn't part of this community. But I am, so I want people to know I am a good person. I try and do the right things, I try and add to my community and make the world a little better where I can. If broadcasting this is part of it, so be it.

I don't have children either Tamara, but seems like having your children be exposed to different things and being more open minded can't be bad. Hiding things from them on the other hand reinforces that something is evil or wrong. Young minds tend to see things in a more open manner. They want to know and they want to learn.


But then again, I didn't see any good reason to bring children into a world of hate and repression. That's me

Heard and be respected ...YES BUT CONSTANTLY being preached at :Angry3::Angry3::Angry3::Angry3::Angry3::Angry3:

I tried my best to not post in this thread but their are a few things I want to say.

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I'm suggesting that every CD and their GG SO's too really are obliged to do this.
That morally and ethically every CD and GG is obligated to push for an Inclusive ENDA ad to make their own community more TG-friendly or they are being negligent and failing their family.
That not doing so is being selfish. Putting ones own comfort ahead of the needs of chidren and grandchildren and the rest of the community.

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Batty how do you not know that we do not work in the community/ plus with our familys for acceptance and some gg's have to work hard for their cd partner to even accept themselves........WE DO
Maybe you should look within and preach to yourself I find this revolting, displeasing, upsetting or simply uncalled for!!
MAYBE LOOK TO YOURSELF WHAT YOU CAN DO AND STOP
'Dictating' your rhetoric ......YOU HAVE not a clue what we do in real life. I am sure we are much further out than you are
( family friends ect plus work in the community) BUT your life is your life.....in the closet ..thats your choice........BUT stop with the preaching.........we all do what we need to do....:doh:

And do not even answer me as I will not be looking back to
feed your ego even more.
GET OFF the pulpit !!:Angry3::Angry3:

I don't care if you know people with children, you don't have children of your own, it's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!! what part of that are you simply not understanding? You cannot preach to us to tell our kids, when you have NONE of your own. It's all very well you saying this, it's easy... but until you have children you created, you cannot. And I for one do not like being lectured on what I should or should not do, because you've seen what not telling kids can do... whatever... I'm done with this thread, you're right, everyone else is wrong... keep telling yourself that :brolleyes:

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

So then don't SOs have a responsibility to strive for TG rights and acceptance for their childrens or grandchildrens sakes?

This seems to me the consequences of concluding that CDs should be honest with their partners. What do you think?

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No. the consequence of CDs being honest with their partners is they risk losing her if she cannot embrace the lifestyle. Which is a good thing IMO, since the CD and the prospective SO will free themselves up to find more compatible relationships with others. Then and only then, can the CD and her new partner decide on their degree of comfort with regards to public education, of course depending their inclination to do so, where the CD sits along the gender spectrum and their current life circumstances.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Isn't trust and the need for honesty and acceptance also in family relationships and friend relationships? While less intimate isn't the same principles in effect just in different degrees?

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No. I can't imagine any reason to disclose medical conditions, sexual practices, a history of physical or sexual abuse or incest to anyone other than a partner, unless someone wants to disclose this. It is not an obligation.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

And for the next generation of CDs to be able to tell their partners don't GGs have a responsibility to risk their family and friend relationships too?

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Why? First they must be true to themselves and their own comfort levels. When an airplane is forced to land, the oxygen mask is always put on the adult first, so s/he can better help the child.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

As for kids, is it good enough for CDs and GGs to just wait and see if their child shows signs of being TG? They could grow up totally closeted and never show those signs.

And what about the parents responsibility for the world the child grows up in? We each play a part in shaping the world however small, if we keep things quiet and private are we not betraying those children by negligently failing to act to make the world a little bit more pro-TG?

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This is pure conjecture. How do you know that parents are not doing all they can, even if it doesn't involve political activity?

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

And in a related point on responsibility to the family shouldn't all the USA GGs be getting involved in this http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1742318

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Might it be preferable if they feel so inclined? Yes. Must they? No. Everyone does what they can and they SHOULD NOT be made to feel remiss if they do not live up to the ideal.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

And doesn't the responsibility to the family mean that CDs and GGs too have a responsibility to take these risks and to work on societies acceptance as well as their own?

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First, let's work on helping SOs to accept and support their partners' transness. THEN we can work on ways they can become active, according to their comfort zones. Not everyone is ready to be public about this. One baby step at a time. Nor is everyone inclined to make this a priority in their busy lives. What if their spare time is taken up with fighting world hunger? Or campaigning for cancer research? Or the couple has a Down's Syndrome child?

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Now that may need to be done gradually and carefully to be most effective, but I cannot find any other conclusion.

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You do agree that coming out may be done gradually then, even it it means going out publicly in the next town over? Or regularly attending a TG support group? Or telling selected people and not everyone at once? And it may take years to come out to all and sundry, perhaps after the children are grown or the CD is retired? What about a CD's choice to not come out at all since she may not have a great need to do so? What if she is content living a large part of her life as a guy and her decision to live this way has nothing to do with ITP? It all boils down to personal choice.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

That not doing so is being selfish. Putting ones own comfort ahead of the needs of chidren and grandchildren and the rest of the community.

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You said in the subsequent post to this one that "One of the most basic principles of ethics and morals is you cannot judge others for not doing what you would not be willing to do yourself (it's part of the ethics of reciprocity)". What about not judging others for not sharing your conviction, or having vastly different life circumstances as you?

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Certainly everyone can't just come out now without risking their job... hence why inclusive ENDA is a matter of protecting the family! So that accidental or intentional outting doesn't harm the family.

I see no other rational or emotional conclusion.

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Good point. See below the line at the bottom of this post.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

But I was discussing the Moral and Ethical Obligations to TG kids and to the whole community.

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This is a concern for all of us. But it is idealistic to believe that everyone is in the same measure to be proactive to the same degree.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

In essence the expectation of the SO is that no matter how hard it is to overcome the ITP in order to do so the SO deserves to know before becoming too comitted in order to make an informed decision about the relationship. Why is that not the case for all other relationships? CDing isn't entirely sexual or romantic in nature so why should disclosure be exclusive to sexual/romantic relationships?

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Because not everyone is prepared to risk losing their livelihood or potentially losing family members, friendships, etc. But again, put it in context. If it is a matter of emotional or spiritual death to stay closeted, then by all means a CD and certainly a TS must live as their true gender and the rest of society will have to adjust. And I am sure those who are so inclined already do what they can to further the cause. But, I wonder how many TSs never transition because their life circumstances would guarantee a loss of livelihood if they did? So how many feel forced to stay silent? I do not wish to begin a discussion on whether the chicken or the egg came first.



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Originally Posted by battybattybats

It's entirely possible that I'm wrong. Or only partially correct. But crucially important is where and why i am wrong if I am. Like most ideas in higher-thinking and science etc a person needs to state an idea and then everyone tries and shows how and why it is wrong. If it cannot be shown to be wrong then you have to consider it is not wrong untill someone can find how and why it is wrong.

so I'm entirely willing to accept i could well be wrong. But it's important to know the why and how so as to progress onto discovering what is actually right.

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In principle, Batty, I do not think anyone would disagree that it is necessary to take proactive actions in order to increase public awareness and education.

I cannot speak for others, but I have an issue when I am told that I MUST behave a certain way and if I do not, then I am failing the TG community, the community as a whole, and all future generations of TGs. Although I may not be willing to march, or take it upon myself to educate our local schools, I do feel I do my part by supporting my SO and going out frequently with her, as well as encouraging other TGs to express themselves more openly, to name a few. I am involved in prolonged divorce proceedings right now and it would be disastrous at this point if my ex were to find out about my SO's CDing, both legally (even though Courts should not consider gender or sexuality when making decisions, Judges are not always impartial and personal bias can negatively affect their decisions) and in my ex's ability to manipulate my sons' attitudes towards their future relationship with my SO.

It would be best if rather than try to convince us of our moral and ethical obligations to stand up and speak out (and I do not believe anyone disagrees with you), you would simply keep it simple and post simple, concrete ways people may involve themselves, IF THEY WISH to do so. And let people decide for themselves.

The ENDA suggestion was good, but it was buried under so many lengthy posts, many links, and quotations, it was hard to isolate a very simple thing anyone can do to help. And I quote from: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=187035380507

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***Here is what we are asking you to do***

Please contact your US Representative by calling the U.S. Capitol at 202-224-3121. Give the operator your zip code and ask for your Representative. Ask your Rep's office whether he or she has a position on an inclusive Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and explain that means both sexual orientation and gender identity. Ask whether the position is definitely yes, probably yes, undecided, probably no or definitely no. Then, post it on the Wall and it will be placed on the spreadsheets listed below in the links section.

Next, do the same for your Senators by calling the same telephone number.

Our next steps after this will be to contact those in the undecided columns and help to educate them about the importance of an inclusive ENDA (The Employment Non-Discrimination Act).

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Di

as with most threads in this forum which are designed to stimulate thought and debate (not fluff and smoke), sometimes things come off as being referred to as "all" or "none" I don't think that was the intent here. Batty tries to get people to look around and see that they should be part of the solution and not hide. We all realize that this community is a vast spectrum. I appreciate the people here who do push to forward our being out and about. If that comes off as preaching, I think in your case it is preaching to the choir. Thanks for doing what you can to get our community seen and heard.

Now on the honesty part...I seem to remember not too long ago someone called the people on this forum liars. So telling one's children, if I had some, would be more honest than the average poster here. Just a thought

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Now on the honesty part...I seem to remember not too long ago someone called the people on this forum liars. So telling one's children, if I had some, would be more honest than the average poster here. Just a thought

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If you're referring to me, then maybe you should ask whether my children actually know? My eldest does know, she's actually a member here. My youngest is well aware of transgendered people, there is a 17 yr old MTF TS in her dance school and she is fully supportive of her, will not hear a bad word against her and really supported her in their dance show. She has seen her dad dressed as Tam, thought it was funny, and it didn't phase her in the slightest. She also is well aware I have many TG friends and has seen me on this board many times and never questioned it... and might I say, she is only 14! I raised my children not to judge, they are open minded and very supportive of everyone... so I really do hope you were not referring to me!

[SIZE="2"]"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out"[/SIZE]

For you Brit's, Rodney King was a black man beaten up by the LAPD in Los Angelos CA years ago.. This was his plea after the event when riots broke out afterwards, his plea to help restore the peace..

Although Batty can easily take care of this, I can't let it go...

Batty's several recent threads, including this one, indicate (to me) her motivations for posting interesting questions is done with the best intentions... for the common good.

IMO, among them are her desire to clarify and solidify her own thinking on complex issues and to present various ideas/"ideals" others can consider to evaluate/re-evaluate one's personal stance on a topic.

In general, what may be ideal and what is possible, practical or desirable for anyone in the real world is of course an individual call, but I believe if one has not thought through an issue completely, and only has a vague idea of what a clearly defined ideal/goal may be, an ethical "big picture" how can one honesty determine if one's personal level of activism/involvement/participation in it/anything, is all it could or should be? What's wrong with food for thought?

To restate: Batty often suggests "frames of reference" one can use in considering one's options and whether or not more can be done without detriment to one's immediate circumstances.

Unlike some of the "preachers" elsewhere on the forum with other favorite agendas that I find particularly tiresome, she has the ability to alter her POV if someone makes a good/logical/ethical case contrary to a conclusion she has made. When that occurs, she incorporates the new data into the equation quickly. She has never said that dealing with complex issues would be easy, comfortable or convenient...

I think she is too often misunderstood and wrongly accused with considerable unjustified animosity directed toward her. Who will deny that she is a good person, has considerable intellectual gifts and her motivations are honorable? Nobody is ever forced to agree with her. OTOH, if one disagrees, she asks for a clarification. That is a fair and reasonable request... negative emotional commentary is counterproductive.

I consider her presence here, her knowledge and advocacy to be a tremendous asset to the forum and the TG community at large, despite my having to wade through the mountain of data she has made available.

dd