Current Thoughts

Most of the time I post mainly about positives and happiness. This post has both happy and not so much at the same time kind of like what I tell my new hires at the Data Center "sometimes it's guts, glory and Uninteruptible Power Supplies and sometimes it's light bulbs and toilets."

My wife hates the crosdressing but loves me. I am having a hard time sorting this in my head. It feels to me like the religious tenet of "love the sinner, hate the sin," or what most churches offer for alomst all LGBT i.e. "It's okay to be, but do not do..." or it's equivalent in modern times of "don't hate the player, hate the game." My trouble is that the dresses and other assorted shit satisfy something in me I can't adequately explain beyond scratching an itch I can't otherwise reach and the lack of my ability to make the liquid heat of the hate stop at the dress and not soak through to the me underneath it.

It isn't that it's a secret that it's not her thing and she isn't wrong for not being able to accept it, she didn't sign on for this any more than I did not knowing how deep it runs. On one of the days we'd agreed on for me to be me and after we moved to separate rooms of the house I spent half an hour and went through at least 6 different dresses trying to find one that would be the least offensive until I realized that the best I was ever going to be able to achieve was "least offensive." What a soul crushing kick to the core of my existence that was. I imagine its similar to the despair she feels when she's forgotten it's my day, she wants to go out for dinner and I haven't realized she's forgotten it is until I have the audacity to put on a skirt or a dress not realizing she's completely forgotten it's my "day."

We don't want to break up 20+ years of workng together in a partnership and the success we've achieved together and financially divorce seems like shared poverty rather than the life we've built together. I like the ability to buy new dresses when I feel like it and she likes the ability to work becasue she wants to instead of because it's the only way she's going to eat. That said, she'll never be a fan and I don't see it hurting less when the visual of me shuts her down and I get the one word answers and shrugs intended to spare my feelings or save her the headache of telling me one more time that where we are sucks.

It feels to me to be an expression of something as completely inherent and important as the part of me that loves music, the range of a bass guitar and the need to breathe to sustain myself. About 3 minutes in to the second allegro of the 3rd Brandenburg Concerto whether it's played by a traditional orchestra, the bluegrass magic of Rob Moose and the Punch Brothers or my ultimate favorite and first foray into electronic classical music and the fact that boy and girl weren't as cemented and abritrary as I'd been told through Wendy Carlos and the Moog synthesizer there is music that touches at least a similar spot to the one that today's "Lemony Thicket" dress (If I were both quality and flambuoyant enough to be a drag queen that's who I'd be) along with the black laced edge, cherries and white lingerie set under it does.

Musically you can get to this space through Apollo 100's "Beethoven's 9" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFZumxLjOkE at the 1:37 minute mark or should you happen to find yourself in San Diego's Balboa Park at 2:00 PM on a Sunday walking up to the outdoor pipe organ as the first low note of the Fugue from Toccatta and Fugue in D minor hits your chest cavity as thoroughly as it does your ears you'll understand how I feel. I haven't found a happier noise than than the mix of modern and classic in Mozart and Drums/Bass here https://youtu.be/mU8amh06Mms?t=180 The entire song is worth a listen but the ending capture what I'm trying to convey.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcZDI63yO1c

I can definitely identify with the scratch that one can't seem to itch. The music side well? As far what reaction a dress will cause in our Society if it is perceived to be on the wrong gender boggles the mind. As a friend said" I think we were born fifty years to early".

Music has always been as important as any other factor in my life whether it was music I played or enjoyed someone else's performance of. I've never claimed to be right in the head and in fact have been able to best describe my internal soundtrack as "Classics on the fritz." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INW_stVgm7U I've built machines of this vintage as well as used the MOD player program to play the fritz among others. :D

This is a tough on to tackle, but I think one fresh perspective might be to loosen the schedule a little. Trust me, I 'get it' as far as working too hard, schedules being tight, and finding time to unwind, but maybe try not scheduling your dress time rigidly and being more open to spontaneity with your wife in your mutual down time. That may take a little communication between you and herself, but why not go out to dinner when you realize that she may want to instead of strictly adhering to it being 'your day'? On the flip side, if the urge to dress is heavy upon you, why not gently say to her that you need a little dress time to help relax and unwind? I gather if you and she are not otherwise engage she wouldn't object … especially if you're prioritizing her at other times.

Meanwhile, speaking of music, YES! That low bass not in Toccata and Fugue in Dm! When it comes to Bach, I love his fugues especially … like artistically working out a math problem with sublime elegance! If you're unwinding from stress, try this bit of music that's in a completely different direction … this is a ten minute excerpt of the Burundi drums, and I recommend it to be played with the volume set to 'eleven' on some chest rattling speakers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8wI49h-4qY

I agree with Macey in this with respect to both it being a tough difficulty to solve and suggesting you be more flexible. Perhaps do what she wants to do sometimes without sticking to a schedule. That said, scheduling a time is useful, but it should not be rigid. Back in 2012 when I was seeing a gender therapist I also went to a group therapy session on Saturday evenings. I stuck to that strictly and it provided a really big boost to me, but my wife really did not like me doing that EVERY Saturday night. I switched to going to group only when it was really needed and she understood that and the rest of the time staying home. Things improved immensely when I began to recognize and do my part in addressing her needs, even if it was watching TV or reading or whatever. I was there and that was important for her.

Keep in mind that her perception is probably that she is losing her husband and her male mate. That plays hugely in the nature of the relationship and when that is gone there is nothing left for her. It is terrifying for her. It is important to be really sensitive to her needs at this time when you are making adjustments in your life. She also needs to be sensitive to your needs, but following a rigid schedule is not the way to achieve that. It tends to be divisive and, as Macey says, being more spontaneous helps a great deal. It is no solution, but it can sure lower the blood pressure when there is this tension between you.

The behavior that is so important to you is produced by about a half dozen structures in your brain. You really can't stop that, but your brain is amazingly flexible in exactly how the needs your brain is producing are addressed. It is all in your thinking and exploring other types of expression besides just dressing fully may provide just as much fulfillment as dressing fully. And, like my wife, she might find that more acceptable. When you are out and about observe how women as a whole dress these days. Not many skirts and dresses; more pants and rather plain shirts. Try the very casual look and see if that works for you, but allow enough time for your brain to adjust to this new expression. It might not work, but try it. I tried going the transition route and it really didn't work out very well for me and it drove my wife nuts. Now I use men's wear from the waist down and women's T shirts or sweatshirts that are obviously designed for women, but not with distinctly feminine patterns. Works great for me. Might not for you, but try it. I have shifted my feminine expression from dressing to behavior - sensitive, empathic, compassionate. And I changed my communication from masculine "statement" style to feminine "questioning" style. The feminine style opens the door to communication and relationship; the masculine style is kind of like putting an exclamation point at the end of a sentence. That is not really helpful because women prefer to open communication rather than close the door.

Although I’m only semi-literate in musical terms, I totally get your metaphor. Blending of seemingly unrelated forms....Dixieland, Jazz, Swing, bebop, Texas swing, hill country music, gospel, R&B, folk, electronic, Rock and Roll... in my life fused into seemingly disparate combinations... I understand that Waylon Jennings grandson is now performing country-Rap.

im not sure what to say about spousal attitudes, but I totally agree that divorce is a costly alternative to acceptance. Any compromise that keeps you emotionally and economically whole is preferable.

I'm so sorry , I have been there in more ways than one.

I hope you can find a balance and are able to work it out with your wife.

You are way beyond me in music, and isn't that something. Everyone, as well as every situation is different. You picked each other, if you are both willing you can find a way.

Me, it just wasn't in the cards. OH and that is where I was born.

Ok gloves off here. When you mentioned the big D, your first, and only concern expressed was financial. If money is the only reason you’re staying together, then there is no reason for you to stay together.

Micki_Finn

I failed to convey that we love each other and are still great friends we just aren't the best of marriage partners. Both of us came from failed marriages before and even divorces that are the right thing to do still suck. If money would fix it she could have it. She's said herself she likes the stability and security along with being taken care of. Neither of us is looking to remarry and unless that changes we have to work with the practical aspects of a domestic partnership as well as some of the emotional/visual ones.

I'll see your Wendy Carlos and raise you a David, I mean...Dee Palmer. :)

I've always seen more similarities between us underneath the surface than differences. You have just confirmed that.

My wife is very cool with my dressing. And I'm an Old time rock& roll hippy. living in the memories of the 60's :hugs:
Angie

Living together after a divorce for security or financial reasons always baffled me.How people justify it makes no sense.
You are still going to be bound to each other and living in a miserable relationship.
To me it means you both aren't strong enough to live on your own.
I am a lover of most all kinds of music classical ,contemporary,big band, R&B,rock and roll, metal you name it.
Play guitar at least a few hours a day just to have the vibration for my soul.

Hi Jason,
I am so sorry to hear all this. My wife finally did admit at the therapist that her FEAR was about 6 different versions of shame from others discovering my predilection, AND that it ruined her sexual attraction, which in practice is something she keeps to herself so who knew? , and that she knows I love her and she loves me but I am not in her mind the one that loves her and that she loves. So it is a typical SNAFU - as a human being I have no problem being a male girl and she has no problem seeing double when she sees me and rejecting half of what she sees.

I have been trying to follow Gretchen's advice since for my wife my delight in wearing a dress, and simple comfort, is like SHOUTING at her that I AM A PARAKEET, or some other strange thing- and I do find that it takes the fun out of it. Like you, I do love her, and I actually felt really good seeing her come back to life after a few days of not seeing me in something feminine. Enough good that I happily dressed masculinely just to see her radiate happiness- it was like I had my old wife back.

I think, like your wife, that for my wife masculine partner also = safety provider, much as sometimes miss often says. She thinks men are boors, generally, but the right man [me- in my masculine form] is the balancing foil for her feminine weaknesses and insecurities. it is just too much for her to reconstruct generations of inherited social learning and find herself an equal partner. She invests me as a man with power and someone to protect her, but who needs to be kept in line, etc.

So I really struggle to ask what is driving me to my closet whenever she is out, since the cost is so high. The neural itch is clearly rooted in millions of impressions - seeing women in dresses of all kinds and hearing the comments and seeing the feelings and my mirror neurons firing away wanting to be in their shoes [actually their dress]. For me the critical reason seems to be that I need to affirm my feminine sexuality, and dresses are the highest impact symbolic item- I suspect the open circular cave form, the exaggeration of my waist and hips, etc, have a Freudian impact. If I am feeling sexy I can also wear feminine pants or shorts and top - but the message is not as feminine- I can pass as flamboyant gay male and that is not quite it.

My crossdressing impulses are a way of asserting my womanliness. I find that when I am simply feeling like a woman I am not particular about what I am wearing, because I am feeling like a woman wearing whatever I am wearing, and there is no question. It does put me in a peaceful space - so theoretically I could be like most women today and rarely wear a dress or anything specially feminine. Plenty of women wear clothes that could pass for men's, as a way to free themselves from the burdens of social expectations as the 'little woman'.

Back to Gretchen's advice, I find it is helpful to just be a woman who passes as a man in order to alarm people, and live the more emotional life bonding with my wife. I find it hard to stay woman when dressing in the role of man, but it is overall better than throwing ice water on my wife.

We mutually agreed to the rigid schedule as compromise working to preserve us. Whether it's the clothing, my weight, naturally low testosterone (working on this one with docs) or that my personality never has been dominant regardless of the rest of issues is hard to call. Neither of us can positively say whether losing weight would be a magic cure-all for the rest. We currently live in separate rooms and the schedule doesn't really exist anymore. It's taken me about a year longer than her to admit that us just isn't working out so well. None of this is intended to bash her in any way.

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Originally Posted by Macey

This is a tough on to tackle, but I think one fresh perspective might be to loosen the schedule a little. Trust me, I 'get it' as far as working too hard, schedules being tight, and finding time to unwind, but maybe try not scheduling your dress time rigidly and being more open to spontaneity with your wife in your mutual down time. That may take a little communication between you and herself, but why not go out to dinner when you realize that she may want to instead of strictly adhering to it being 'your day'? On the flip side, if the urge to dress is heavy upon you, why not gently say to her that you need a little dress time to help relax and unwind? I gather if you and she are not otherwise engage she wouldn't object … especially if you're prioritizing her at other times.

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Before we decided on separate rooms, when it came up that she wanted to go out and had forgotten our agreement hands down I changed and we went to dinner. Sometimes there would be another time for me and sometimes there wouldn't. Now that we do live in separate rooms knowing that we would interact at the least for the dinner I was going to cook and for her nightly massage with a percussion massager to help her shoulders I tried to find a dress that would be less offensive. After going through six of them I realized the best I was ever going to achieve was "less offensive." That realization hurt. It hurt I assume like it did for her on those days.

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Originally Posted by GretchenM

It is all in your thinking and exploring other types of expression besides just dressing fully may provide just as much fulfillment as dressing fully. And, like my wife, she might find that more acceptable. When you are out and about observe how women as a whole dress these days. Not many skirts and dresses; more pants and rather plain shirts. Try the very casual look and see if that works for you, but allow enough time for your brain to adjust to this new expression. It might not work, but try it. I tried going the transition route and it really didn't work out very well for me and it drove my wife nuts. Now I use men's wear from the waist down and women's T shirts or sweatshirts that are obviously designed for women, but not with distinctly feminine patterns.

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I asked her if say the lemon sun dress was 11 on the dial would what I had on today be 10.5? She didn't understand what I meant so I asked if the difference between the sun dress and a jean skirt with mens t-shirt and tennis shoes was like asking if she wanted someone to punch her 6 times or only 5. There isn't going to be a combination that wins her over on this one. The jean skirt was okay to park and level her RV after she got back today from her camping trip, it worked just fine for the weeding, laundry and fountain work but she's made it clear that so much as a skirts presence and I'll be dining alone at least out of the house. Not a complaint, just where we are. I know not to expect her to go anywhere out of the house with me but she still has an open invitation to. She was happy with the fountain being back in service, listening to it provides her with comfort.

At least where I am there doesn't seem to be a shortage of women in skirts or dresses. I don't like skirts and dresses because they are women's skirts and dresses I like them because they are skirts and dresses. If a company wants to follow on what Homme Mystere started in making things that fit men as men and make a pretty dress that truly fits me and doesn't cost $300 a pop I'll be onboard.

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

Living together after a divorce for security or financial reasons always baffled me.How people justify it makes no sense.
You are still going to be bound to each other and living in a miserable relationship.
To me it means you both aren't strong enough to live on your own.
I am a lover of most all kinds of music classical ,contemporary,big band, R&B,rock and roll, metal you name it.
Play guitar at least a few hours a day just to have the vibration for my soul.

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We aren't divorced and as far as we know won't be any time soon. The one thing I won't do is live miserably. Right now one of us leaving to live on our own doesn't make any sense. We'll see the further we get into the separate rooms not being a traditional marriage.

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Originally Posted by phili

So it is a typical SNAFU - as a human being I have no problem being a male girl and she has no problem seeing double when she sees me and rejecting half of what she sees.

So I really struggle to ask what is driving me to my closet whenever she is out, since the cost is so high.

Back to Gretchen's advice, I find it is helpful to just be a woman who passes as a man in order to alarm people, and live the more emotional life bonding with my wife. I find it hard to stay woman when dressing in the role of man, but it is overall better than throwing ice water on my wife.

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I'm having a hard time dealing with how much she hates a valuable part of me. She insists she doesn't hate part me of just hates the clothes. I can't as easily split them apart. I truly hope the new found way works out for you and your wife. What happens when she ultimately catches you in a dress again?

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

I'll see your Wendy Carlos and raise you a David, I mean...Dee Palmer. :)

I've always seen more similarities between us underneath the surface than differences. You have just confirmed that.

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I know who Dee Palmer is! I saw her in concert in Madison Square Garden in 1978 playing alongside John Evan, Martin Barre, Barriemore Barlow and the boys. And your wise men don't know, how it feeeeeeeels...Hugs, Michelle

HI Jason,
You said : "I'm having a hard time dealing with how much she hates a valuable part of me. She insists she doesn't hate part me of just hates the clothes. I can't as easily split them apart. I truly hope the new found way works out for you and your wife. What happens when she ultimately catches you in a dress again?"

To answer:
She puts up with my dressing because she knows I have a basic right to live, and she tries to influence me with nasty comments, but also manfully tries to ignore it. However, it is very destabilizing for her, as she is very emotional and logic is of no value for her. . She often just short circuits and shuts down.

I am having the same hard time as you for the same reason, and although my wife says it is just the clothes, I see that she also gets uncomfortable, recoils in fear, then gets angry, then cold and withdrawn when I feel and behave in a feminine way in regular men's clothing. I am sure your wife as well actually does fear the part of you that wants to wear the dress. I understand why, as I began to see from her point of view after I became a woman for all intents and purposes. It felt like this: we are trained to adopt and inhabit a masculine or feminine persona, and in that persona to be the active to someone else's passive, or to be the receiver to someone else's giving. It is the complementary dance of opposites, and it is a giant ball of mythmaking. But it works and keeps life interesting, on edge, and gives us a defined role to play. Most people feel quite satisfied and delighted to chase women, or to attract men's attention, to be a provider or a helpmeet, to fix things or to decorate, to be living a role that is half of a complementary pair.

Then, when our partner doesn't play their part, we feel lost- our identity has no opposite now. It is terrifying. We lose the sexual attraction that underlies and energizes the relationship. We become sexless. All this disorientation is immediate and devastating, and if we weren't married, we would immediately turn away and go find another complementary partner. Granted, the women I have know for whom being a woman was a mixed blessing have been relatively open to mixed gender relationship, but I did not understand that my wife was very much not one of them.

My wife specifically said, "I [her] am the one who gets to wear a dress" . She knows that modern liberalism doesn't support that, and she says she is fine with other men wearing dresses, but not 'my husband'. I was chosen by her to be a husband, not a girlfriend, and she committed to me with that in her mind. In my mind, as in yours, the hidden parts of me were the part that made me such a great husband, but I did not realize then how awful it is if you are fully immersed in the feminine persona as a female to lose your male.

So since I like a lot about being male, I am hoping to affirmatively enjoy it with her, and for her benefit. I think the key is getting enough time and intensity in the experience of being a girl. So I am full steam ahead whenever she leave the house, and in particular now shopping a lot and sewing my fantasy wear. A ray of light is that if I have really satisfying moments of growth and discovery as a girl, I am ok with coming back through the looking glass and passing as an undivided man for her benefit- and of course not just her, but the mass of people just find it easier when males don't intrude in the feminine world assigned to women.

Hi Philil,

It looks like I may have misunderstood and that your wife thought you were not dressing even while she was out. My wife wants me to be who I am whether we can find a way to move forward together that way or we have to move forward more as life partners than traditional husband and wife roles. Roles at our house have never exactly been super traditional. The neighbors in Charleston used to mean mugg me to no end through the kitchen window while I was washing dishes and doing the rest of the kitchen while my wife at her preference was out mowing the yard.

"...if we weren't married, we would immediately turn away and go find another complimentary partner." For us it's not just the marriage, it's 25+ years of working together to build something out of the pieces of other failed relationships who have done their best to be there for each other through thick and thin whether we liked all facets or not. It seems for us we may not be able to meet all of each others needs without the involvement of others and bits of overlap. I seem to have less of a "switch" from man to woman than the visual of the skirts and such but the visual is a key trigger for her. I can be more emotional, empathetic or any of the other stereotypically associated "feminine" traits but once she see the visual or touches my shoulder and feels the evidence of lingerie she hadn't seen that shuts her down too. It hurts to feel and watch the touch be promptly withdrawn and the associated shutdown for me and for what I watch it do to her.

My wife has expressed a similar sentiment, she gets to be the pretty one. Rationally she can accept but emotionally and visually she just can't and I can't fault her for it. Both your wife and mine have a case of NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard.) My wife did mention one of her trouble spots was that I never seem to come "all the way back" to male. I don't want to be her "girlfriend" in fact I'm perfectly happy to "kill the spiders" (Please note if I'm not here and a spider needs a killing she'll handle her business and take care of it.) "provide for the family" and most of the other things I would traditionally be expected to do. I can fill the "male" functions but sometimes it may be in a skirt or dress whether it's practical or not!

I don't hate being male I just can't accept the standard limits on what that means. I can be happily visually acceptable to hike with my wife and her friends as long as there is no illusion that's the only way I'll ever be. I'm done with the concept of X is allowed A and Y is allowed B and never the two shall mix.