Today it’s not uncommon for most high schools to have at least one or two transgender students. More parents are accepting and supportive. Do you think young cross dressers today will be incorrectly encouraged to transition? When I was this age the idea of becoming a girl was appealing to me. I could have been easily led in that direction.
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Nope. TS teens know they are TS, and will (eventually) seek help. Crossdressing teens will stay in the closet. NOBODY can encourage someone to transition. Yes, the fantasy of being a girl was appealing, but you could not have been forced, coerced, or persuaded unless you were TS. It is time for people to realize that transition is not the evolution of crossdressing.
I am not sure. But transitioning often comes with some serious medical interventions (and most physicians will not offer them with some serious thought).
I think that a lot of them will have access to better mental health professionals that we did. 40 years ago, there were virtually zero psychologists with any experience in gender issues outside of a few major city's universities, and CD, TG/TS was still considered so rare that they didn't even discuss the problems connected with it in texts, if at all.
What I think will happen, is that as it becomes more commonly seen by the mental health community, you will have more therapists who are less specialized in it treating patients, and some will eventually be incorrectly steered into the wrong path, perhaps due to the current practice of treating everything with pills because actually talking to the patients takes too much time which costs the insurance companies too much. They'd rather just dispence HRT than pay for years of discussion sessions.
I agree with Paula. I hate to generalize too much from my own experience, since there are many differences between us all. But still, when I think back to my teen years of crossdressing, I remember vivid fantasies (okay, I admit it, I still have those fantasies) of having a genuine female body, and enjoying that femininity. But it was always totally clear to me that those were just fantasies. I never would have been receptive to any suggestion that I really was inherently a girl, or that I should change my body. And my male parts gave me way too much enjoyment for me to seriously consider giving them up. While there are some unprofessional "professionals" out there (doctors, therapists, etc), and some kids are genuinely confused about their sexual identities, I think there are enough safeguards in the system to make it unlikely that more openness and acceptance (which is a good thing) would result in erroneous transitions (which, of course, would be a terrible thing).
First, I think you are grossly exaggerating the number of trans kids. "...not uncommon for most high schools to have at least one or two transgender students..." is WAY off. It would be extraordinary if "one or two" kids in the >36K US high schools (public and private) were out.
Secondly, about getting pushed in the wrong direction, not a chance. Cross dressers cross dress, they don't transition. Transpeople sometimes transition.
I"m with Paula on this, I think it's a flat-out "nope." I'm kind of assuming you're talking "transition" in terms of getting to SRS because pretty much at any point up to that, you can back away. There are too many in-between steps to inadvertently get to SRS (at least at present.) What I do think will happen is more and more people will be exposed to the concept of being transgender and the idea of being non-binary and there might well be a few people who stumble into it looking for themselves but come away with a better understanding which can only be beneficial to society as a whole.
Some interesting thoughts here. As far as the thought of having 1 or 2 transgender kids in a school, I can see that, but it is very dependent on school size. I am working with mothers and GSA/QSAs (Gay/Queer Straight Alliances) and see many transgender kids in my area. One or two per school is hard to say without a specific count per school, but I do feel kids are out more than lets say those over the age of 50. If we are 0.6% of the population (I think this is understated), then it takes a school size of about 333 to have two. Now how many are out is quite debatable. I do know that there are plenty of transgender high school youth in my area to where we have to have appropriate discussions. Just the participation in GSAs/QSAs and other organized youth groups show that the numbers do exist in some significant quantity.
Anyway, if handled under current thinking, the risk is low. A young person who states they are transgender should be placed on puberty blockers after appropriate therapy. As they reach adulthood, they should then go on cross sex hormones if nothing has changed, or if they realize they are a cross dresser, the blockers are stopped and puberty moves forward as normal. I would suspect someone who is a crossdresser that is placed on blockers will feel out of place quickly as their classmates realize secondary sexual characteristics while they themselves are still undergoing no changes. A transexual will be glad they aren't changing. So the process could be vetting by itself.
One or two? I know one that has 60, they're all being encouraged to transition. They get them together in a group, imagine the peer pressure. There's a huge push for it, which is horrible really, many people I'm aware of through the internet have chosen to detransition or simply halt what they're doing for a variety of obvious reasons. This is what happens when adults, forms of media and essentially the internet almost in general begin to influence the minds of children and young people. Children are becoming aware that they'll be hailed as brave and special people for transitioning, for taking hormones and undergoing surgery, the impression is it's a heroic and pioneering feat to either be transgender, or gay or whatever. The whole glorification and propagation of the LGBT movement is literally psychotic, it's poisonous to society.
When I was younger especially I fully wanted to be a girl too. I am this so called transgender. Thankfully no one got their hands on my mushy little mind back then.
I believe it depends on the counselor at the school. From what I have read the majority of younger children seem to go through a phase and 'out grow' desires to be a child of the opposite sex. Don't jump on me if I have not chosen the right words. First you have to figure out why the child wanted to be the opposite sex. What was the allure? What was the biological, spiritual or nurturing cause. Past elementary school it appears there is going to be some children who are transgender or homosexual who need counseling.
I have a friend whose grandson is totally confused to his sexual identity. Within the past two years he has come out as transgender. Or gay. He is in flux. He cannot figure it out. At least in the high school he attended there seemed to be an air of affirming his transgender tendency to at least act if not transition to becoming a woman. Among the student population he has lost his male friends. Males shun him like the plague. Many of the girls think he is a cool novelty. For someone who maybe lacks maturity, does it means if you like to wear women's clothing, you must be gay. I know society thinks it has made a lot of strides toward helping kids figure all this out, but, the truth seems to be the kids are still as confused as when I was a teen in the 1960's. I thought I must be gay because I liked to wear women's clothing. That's what society said. Now? It seems the kids are for the most part still uneducated. When a person is truly confused and uneducated it is totally possible to lead someone in one direction over another. This is not limited to the question on this thread.
I don't think so.For the most part Crossdressers will alway be just crossdressers.:hugs:
Angie
Paula,
The younger generation have more information available and the choices are easier to make because there is usually someone prepared to help and advise . In my day CDing and the implications were taboo subjects, it's something a school boy might sneak off and do in his bedroom with his mother's or sister's clothes. Now we know there's far more to it than that, finding out it's for life the modern generation will have better informed choices.
That may also be a problem , being over saturated with information can also cause confusion, we only have to look at the labels used on the forum to see how confusing it can be at times.
Recent press reports in the UK show a two or three fold increase in attendances at gender clinics, one reported having 150 under tens waiting for counselling.
I still find that very hard to believe or understand, how many of us would have understood gender and sexual issues below the age of ten, I certainly didn't, so why is there an almost alarming increase, are they being misdirected by parents , teachers or society ?
I hope the current system isn't changed too much , I know to some it's a long hard road but with it comes safeguards, in the UK the NHS has limited funds they have to know people who do want to transition are genuine, it's not something that is going to happen overnight on a whim.
Personally testosterone kicked in early so it was interest in girls from an early age, the whole thing became confused when dressing , girls and sex became intertwined leaving me with GD and being bi-gender.
There are a lot more then you think. Even in Idaho I know of quite a few kids who have transitioned in their schools. Boise, hailey, Idaho falls, twin falls all have them. Just kept quiet for everyone's sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
:eek: I don't know if this is real or pure sarcasm I'm leaning toward sarcasm. Why? Because most everything in that post is either conjecture or straight misinformation. Otherwise known as BS and really not helpful. I strongly suggest that whoever reads that post do some REAL research and vetting. (like the number of people who have "detransitioned"...it is a VERY very small number)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
To the OP, there are so many checks and gates that no one is encouraged to transition. However, with today's ability to counsel and help, there will be less suicides and feeling like you are alone in the world. This cannot be a bad thing.
Jennifer at home- every teenager I know, knows at least one trans person. One or two per highschool sounds dead on.
The OT, and my post were about crossdressing kids being pushed into transition, not about number of TS kids.
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That's a really nasty, untrue, and ( mods, are we allowed to say 'full of crap'?) post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
You don't believe me about the numbers Lorileah? I can't prove them to you but I heard it from a parent whose children attend the high school. How are you going to research the number of people who have detransitioned, I highly doubt there are proper statistics. Rather than doubt the thought that people have second thoughts or change their minds you would rather deny it like you want to convince anyone reading. There are just as many suicides too, it's wishful thinking to believe otherwise, transitioning and sexual reassignment aren't miracle cures.
No one is encouraged to transition? Do you actually believe that, they're certainly not discouraged you know. Checks and gates as well, how many do they turn away, we know the numbers have at least doubled and tripled.
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How is it untrue Paula, maybe what you think is nasty and untrue BS? Ever considered that?
There may be more than you think. My daughter is under 10 and her basketball team has a child born as a girl presenting as a boy, and another who girl who has a brother that was born a girl. I could see the possibility that a child that young could get pushed in a direction before they have truly formed opinions of gender and sexuality. I would hope they don't get pushed in any direction and find their own way in an accepting environment, but I think the possibility exists.
@Alexa CD - there is no possible way to coerce gender variant kids into transition. The bullying and stigma they face in schools *all* schools, pretty well insures only the most desperate come out. Your claim of 60 out kids is *really* hard to believe. The largest high school in America is the Brooklyn Technical High School in NY, with 8076 students. My fiancé is a police sergeant here in Dallas, and one of his schools is Skyline #12 in the nation, with 4697 students. I don't know what it's like in the Brooklyn Technical High School, but I can tell you at Skyline there are only a handful of trans kids. And for good reason - being in Skyline is a risky proposition, even if you aren't transgender. So for a school to have that many trans kids, well, it would need to be a pretty huge school. Using the BATHROOM is a hardship for trans students in many places. I can't speak for other places, but I am actively involved with this here in Texas, and I can tell you we don't have a school with 60 out trans kids - no freaking way. And I can also tell you that even with the more tolerant attitudes of many youth, there are enough hateful bigoted little troglodytes who'll make sure the trans kids get the crap kicked out of them.
So I apologize, but based on firsthand knowledge and experience as an activist in this area, your claims seem specious to me.
As for people who detransition, yeah that happens. It's relatively small, and it generally happens early on, either because:
- they lack resources and fail to launch
- they are on HRT for a while, and realize this isn't the right path for them
The first one is pretty sad, but usually they end up trying again later. I see a fair number of these, I don't see this as "it was wrong for them", just that the barrier to entry is still too high. The second group is what most people think of when they think of detransition, and out of the VERY LARGE number of trans people I know, I know four who've detransitioned, two MtF, two FtM. One of the MtF's, it just wasn't right for them. The other MtF dropped out for a woman. She'll be back. Both of the FtM's tried to transition, and realized they simply weren't transgender. It's a really low percentage though, I can tell you that. Nobody had surgery. (LOL, people who desperately need surgery can't get it here - it's not like they perform them at the Minute Clinic!)
As for gatekeeping, the only medical trans youth program in Texas is quite gatekeepery, and looks for kids who are persistent, insistent, and clearly binary before putting them on blockers - which are reversible. It's probably TOO gatekeepery, really. Because at a young age, I knew who I was. And look, here I am now. The kids who transition face enormous obstacles. They generally know what they are doing. The transtrenders are unlikely to come out, and sure as hell are unlikely to transition. They may talk about it, but talk is cheap.
The number of us have increased because the barrier to entry has lowered - there is still massive pressure to not come out, to not transition. I can't believe I am even having this discussion with a faceless, closeted CD, but here I am. Hey - if the barriers to entry are so low, why aren't you showing your face in your profile picture, sweetie? Oh right, the adults who'd make your life a living hell don't exist for kids. Oh puh-lease!
I'm sorry that you are trying to talk yourself out of whatever it is you are trying to talk yourself out of with all this stuff you are saying. Or rather that you are pretty obviously trying to talk yourself INTO staying closeted. And it's fine for you to do whatever it is you are doing with your life. It's your life and you should live it as you see fit. But I'm telling you that the figures you quote on desistence, post transition suicide, etc. are wrong, and the issues trans people face who DO end their lives well into transition are social in nature. Transition, at least for binary trans people, generally works GREAT. If only society didn't treat us like we were sub-human.
BTW, I believe a large number of older trans people who regret their decisions (and there aren't many of these) are likely non-binary and were shoe-horned into a binary gender by a system that only allowed for "male" and "female."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
Arg . . . I heard from a friend of a friend who's brothers' dog said . . . blah, blah, blah. :facepalm: Yes . . . the media is chock o block full of rampant forced transitions of minors stories. Seriously?????
This BS just panders to transphobia . . . very nice.
But yet you are here as a CD still trying /dressing up somehow trying to be / look like girl after all these years later........Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
Amazing to me that you feel so bitter towards those that were brave enough to forge ahead and become themselves.
Your rather hurtful comments about the LGBT sicken me........why the hate ? You must have some legacy issues that you did not mention to carry this kind of hatred towards a group of people who have been discriminated against for years.
Arguing with someone with so much hatred for trans people is rather pointless. Alexa CD will always hate, and keep dreaming up fantasies of children being duped into something they don't want to justify her hate. Remember when Anita Bryant had fantasies that homosexuals were recruiting children? Same thing.
Alexa, as someone who works in the community almost daily and works with youth when possible (GSAs/QSAs/Youth Counseling/Mama Dragons (a group of fiercely protective mothers)), I will agree with everything Paula has stated. I think things are better for our youth then they were for us because of other youth that accept them is in greater quantities (notice I am not saying all youth). It makes things safer than what we had, but not near totally safe. And to say you know 60 that are being encouraged to transition, then going "well I heard it from this other person..." takes any validity away. I get you may have thought you were a girl when you were young and you know better now. Good for you! I hope everyone gets to figure it out. As everyone has stated above, there is plenty of gatekeeping and social aspects that prevent false transitions. I only know of two in my community and they were both adults. One has mental health issues and disappeared right after detransitioning, so I haven't been able to talk to her. The other detransitioned because of all the judgment and then took her life shortly after. It just doesn't happen often.
I like seeing someone else say this. Non-binary, older trans individuals aren't very common. I have always thought that it was three parts. One being Paula's comment. Another being awareness as a lot of us just didn't hear of non-binary and may shoot for what we know (think of not knowing about transgender identities until the internet). The last being that I can see someone bottling it up for so long that you jump to the other side thinking the other binary must be it because you have denied yourself for so long, you want to fill in the gap by experiencing it 100%. Basically an effort to fill the huge void.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
First, we need a definition of "transition". Are we talking about living as the other sex or are we talking about having the surgery to become the other sex? Up until the point of surgery, it's possible to revert to one's original sex.
I'm not sure "encouraged" is the correct word, but it's easier and more acceptable for boys to live as girls and vice versa than it was many years ago. It's also a way for children (and their parents) to get attention. Or even money as in filing lawsuits against school districts.
I know of one (there are probably others) major state university that offers sex change surgery with their student health insurance. This means that for the cost od a college degree, a student can get a degree and go in as a boy and come out as a girl (or vice versa).
So, in general, I agree with Paula_56
If there is anything poisonous to society on this planet, its the ongoing 'glorification and propagation' of the heterosexual 'only the family values between men and women' and 'men are men and women are women' lifestyle thats been happening for as long as the media exists. And it doesnt even matter if its based on what someone is thought or believes for other reasons, that ongoing 'glorification and propagation' is whats used as an excuse for violence against LGBTQ people and to deny them basic human rights. Why? Because that narrative doesnt allow for anyone to be 'different'. And before you start on a rant about how i'm wrong....look at the tv, read a paper, whatever...its everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
I'm serious Marcelle these people aren't gossiping, one is a nurse, the other is a dentist. This is the reality, in my city there are now at least 3000 school age transgender children. There was a story about how they made a special bathroom for a 6 year old. It really isn't an over exaggeration, why can nobody wrap their heads around this. If you tell every kid that's depressed, doesn't fit in or feels like they want to be the opposite sex that they're transgender, they're all going to believe it.
Lauri, what I'm saying is I would have been labelled and boxed as a child, if I had come out at 8 years old or whenever, that would have been it for me. I, my parents and whoever else would have known I was transgender and I would have fully believed it, I would have been told what I was. Instead I got over it (for the most part) and accepted myself, I can be my actual self and go on as a relatively normal, functioning male without any near crippling social or physical issues. Why be brave and amazing when I can be logical, I can do whatever I like as I am, I can have children for example. As far as the nauseating LGBT community goes I think I can dislike it all I like, it doesn't represent everyone and people should be allowed to disagree with it. I'm interested in a healthy productive society, I'm not selfish.
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Believe it or not Marissa but as far as I'm aware LGBTQ people have human rights, and nobody in any proper position of influence in the first world has called for, or excused violence against these people, or against us. I don't see any mainstream media outlets or TV shows ridiculing or putting transgender people for example in a bad light, the narrative is the opposite. The propagation and glorification of healthy, normal families values is not an issue, mothers and fathers is how it has to be. That's the way it has been and always should be. I don't think heterosexuals are poisonous to society.
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I appreciate the disdain PaulaQ. I disagree on a number of things and I think you've left out parts of your book which may be, for the most part, why. Something I find quite interesting is the language you use, and some of the things you say.
I'll give examples: "LOL, people who desperately need surgery can't get it here", implying what? "She'll be back", essentially insisting people belong somewhere. "barrier to entry", "gatekeeper", "closeted", making it a place, a separate thing, is part of the problem, you talk about it like opening a door instead of removing it, by recognising transgender as separate from everyone else makes it separate. Gays, with the exception of LGBT parades for example removed the door, and it worked, do you understand what I'm saying?
Also "sweetie", really?
Wow! Cue music to Twilight Zone.
3000 huh? 'Well gee golly'.
I call this discussion all bunk, you're comment about as far as you are aware LGBT people have Human Rights. I wish that were the case, you need to do a little research before you start telling LGBT folks that they have all rights equal to heterosexual folks.
There is also a conservative party of people railing against us every single day now and introducing bills trying to take away our rights.........
I don't see any bill being introduced to take away rights of hetrosexual folks though, that would be fun to see for a change though......
I am done, I don't see this thread ending on a good note.
People who roughly share your opinion may be the majority here, but if you look outside your window Paula you'll see where you're the minority. The Twilight Zone is right here, you're in it.
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Human rights and equal rights in general are two different things Laurie. When you make the sacrifice for your own good to determine your own gender you have to accept what you're getting yourself into, did you not know how you would be treated? Were you not aware of something?
Taking away rights of transgender people (I thought they didn't have rights) is bad. But taking away the rights of heterosexual people for no reason, that would be fun.
This is actually true if any of you actually cared to do some research, it took me all of what.... 10 seconds...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11639240
So, just read it and then form your opinions instead of posting the usual crap slamming a member when you've done nothing to find out if this is true... so annoying!!
Quote:
A recent youth survey revealed 1.2 per cent of New Zealand school-aged children identified as transgender - more than 3000 in Auckland and more than 9000 nationwide.
So Alexa .... not debating your numbers. However your original post implied that these children are being coerced into being trans. Is that your contention? If so, l can't find anything regarding forced transition factual or anecdotal.
My concern is that anecdotal stories which paint this like a Trans conspiracy ... let's indoctrinate your children ... helps nobody. It doesn't help those children who are truly trans, it doesn't help the Trans community nor does it help society writ large
Society tends to be a pendulum going way far one, way, then way far another way. We all have a right to differing opinions, and understandings , and things are changing so fast now, in society, that it will take some time to see, if all trends were really healthy and good or not. History or herstory books in the future, will tell the truth.
Well, unfortunately, the statistics in that brief article (and would it have killed Alexa to say "Auckland"?) don't really tell the whole story. Here's the report they were derived from - found with 10 seconds of googling:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
http://www.jahonline.org/article/S10...ltext#sec1.1.2
So according to those statistics, sure, 3000 kids in Auckland answered on the survey that they were transgender. However, only 32% reported having disclosed this information to anyone other than the survey. So the number of kids who are out as trans in some way is much, much smaller than was reported. Further, as you continue to read the survey, the trans kids report experiencing elevated levels of depression, suicidal ideation, bullying, violence, and alcohol use - in other words, the same things the kids here in the states report. This is a HUGE difference in reality from what Alexa presented - that is that thousands of kids in (apparently) Auckland NZ were being encouraged to transition? Encouraged by who? The bullies that beat them up?
So I apologize if I came off as harsh, but the abuse of statistics that I saw, and that are borne out by reading the actual source material, is *exactly* the type of thing that anti-trans concern (edit:people) do here in the states. So I came down on it pretty hard. Given the damage those people do over here, I feel this was justified - believe me, I spend *a lot* of time fighting such people as they try to get laws passed here to make transition effectively impossible, especially for young people.
Probably the most interesting thing to my mind that I read in that paper, btw, was that 2.5% of the respondents didn't understand the term transgender - and yet in many ways mirrored some of the same negative results as the transgender kids. Which makes one go hmmm.... (Or at least me.)
TLDR: There aren't 3000 out trans kids in Auckland - those numbers really are absurd. Use the source, Luke!
I feel that the decision to transition should be deferred until adulthood, primarily because it is a life-changing event, and it requires a certain amount of maturity. You need to think about things like marriage, having children, career, and young people just don't think about those things.
On the other hand, if I'd been given the choice when I was young (grade school or even younger) I'm sure I'd have jumped at the chance to transition. I'm not sure though, because it was so out-of-the-question back then that it wasn't even worth thinking about.
I'm handicapped. I was born with a congenital birth defect in my legs. They never thought I would walk - but after many surgeries, I did. I can walk, but my feet are pigeon toed in the extreme - I can turn them inwards in ways that are basically physically impossible for most other people to do. This has a very pronounced affect on my gait. So when I was 10, the doctors who worked on me presented my mom with a choice - really a potentially life altering choice. They wanted to saw through the bones in my legs above the knee, rotate them, reset them, and in so doing, straighten them. So they'd still turn in at my hips - that is my problem, my hips allow too much rotation of my legs, but they'd LOOK normal when I walked or stood upright.
My mother left this decision to me. I was 10. Keep in mind, this affected me EVERY DAY of my life, and still does today.
Should she have left the decision to me? Because I opted not to have the surgery. It was purely cosmetic. And I worried it could've gone horribly wrong. I have not regretted my decision a single day in my life since making it. Not once. And sure, it's had profound social consequences for me - largely negative. I'm viewed as a cripple, people stare at me. I'm stared at every time I'm out. It's so frequent that I really no longer notice it unless I let myself. I don't care about that anymore. Being perceived as handicapped in school meant I was bullied.
So did she make the wrong choice letting me make the decision?
BTW, if you want to claim this isn't the same - it's not as life changing, potentially, as gender transition, then try going for a week without using your legs, and get back to me how much that affected your life - because losing the use of them was absolutely a possibility. Not a large possibility, but we all knew I was a guinea pig, and I'd had plenty of that.
I mention this because I feel it directly relates to the notion of giving children no autonomy over their bodies. The surgery would've made me conform to society's expectations better. Should my parent have given me such a decision as a child, yes or no? And if you answer "yes", then why shouldn't a trans kid have a say in what happens to them. And if you answer "no", I'd like you to answer why MY feelings about the matter, which are EXACTLY what they were 43 years ago don't matter.
Now-a-days, it is not uncommon for some young ones who think they are the wrong sex to have medications, with parents consent, to delay the on-set of puberty (if they are of that fortunate age). This gives them time to better come to terms with their challenges and to then ultimately make a decision.
Would it have killed you to ask her where she was from, or just you generally assume everyone is from the USA? Contrary to belief, there are actually other countries you know... and omg... they have.... drumroll please.... transgender people... (hows that for condescending... good no?)Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Got facts to prove that have you?Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
It's all very well people posting stuff they think is true, but what pisses me off is people respond with their version of facts with no evidence to back it up!
The point is this, you all jumped on her regarding her statistics and then off on a tangent regarding other stuff I have yet to see any of you back up.
Bottom line is, unless you can prove something yourself, don't jump on others, it pisses me off and you really don't want to piss me off... not a good idea generally...
I did ask her. I PM'd her, in fact, and believe I asked in thread. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
I linked the study that was the source of the news article, Tamara - the things I said are very clearly stated there. Would you like me to quote them back for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
http://www.jahonline.org/article/S10...ltext#sec1.1.2
From the study:
Have you disclosed being transgender?
Yes 32 (34.8)
No 60 (65.2)
So only 34.8% of the respondents had disclosed being transgender. That's 1000 trans kids who are out, not 3000 - a pretty big difference.
Another snippet:
These things back my assertions, not Alexa's. I am sorry for my tone - but not for what I said.Quote:
Students who were transgender, not sure, or did not understand the question were at increased risk of violence and had compromised personal safety. In particular, transgender students appeared especially vulnerable to mistreatment. For example, more than half were afraid someone at school would hurt or bother them, and nearly one in five transgender students reported experiencing bullying at school on a weekly (or more frequent) basis
I agree with Cynthia. We are making experiments and guinea pigs out of little children. Let kids wait until they are 18 and more capable of making huge decisions. Sorry. Just my opinion.
I was on a a local NPR program 2 weeks ago with the doctor who heads the children's trans program at UCSF. She spent a large amount of time explaining the safeguards against parents or children making mistakes in these matters. They are doing great work there and I am confident they are helping children make good decisions every step of the way!
Suzanne
FWIW
I found it very interesting that this same exact thread is up and running over on another web forum that is very popular for trans folks...........but I did not find any mention of NZ cities being hailed as the basis for the thread nor any numbers / statistics.........
To be honest . . . not super concerned about the statistics stated as statistics are just that, a number . . . heck you can statistically prove a high probability of a elephant hanging suspended over cliff with only it's tail tied to a daisy :).
My biggest concern was Alexa's statement about children being coerced into transitioning. There have been plenty of alarmist articles written by people who are ringing the bell of "danger, danger" where there is none. I believe a doctoral candidate on sexual neuroscience wrote an article published in the Wall Street Journal (now there is a top tier psych journal) about kids being encouraged by parents to socially transition. I believe the author's last name was Soo or Soh (can't remember . . . getting old). Any way her contention was transgender children are being coerced. However, the one issue with her research was she did not differentiate between "gender non-conforming" and true transsexual children. Specifically, much the behavior being supported by parents was "gender non-conforming" . . . it is okay to play with dolls if you are a boy and paint your nails or it is okay to cut your hair short and play soldier if you are a girl. Yes, some used the other gender pronoun and different names but in most case they identified as their birth gender. Specifically very few of these children were transsexual. I suspect a lot of alarmist thought comes from similar observations by other people . . . Goodness do you know the Smiths let their 10 year old son wear nail polish like a girl . . . what's next hormones and GRS? In contrast the Trans Youth Project followed a few hundred families and found that very few gender non-conforming children ever transition later in life. However, those children who are transsexual who don't have support are more likely to suffer bullying, intolerance and depression (high rate of suicide). Contrarily, the ability of these children to begin social transitioning early in life and eventually transitioning as an adult ensures a healthy emotional state.
Now does this equate to some conspiracy theory? No. Goodness if your child was ill would you deny them help to get better? Alexa's contention seems to be confusing gender non-conforming with true transsexual children. If you can't see a need to ensure that transsexual children grow up with healthy emotional state then I have to ask where is your empathy? Look at all the transsexual folk on this forum who suffer years of a closeted existence, self-loathing and depression because there was no help for them when they were young.
Now if there are parents out there allowing "whomever . . . perhaps the smoking man" talk them in to transitioning their child who is not truly transsexual, then I have to ask the question . . . What kind of parent does that? Are they that naïve (read stupid) that anyone with a good story will convince them to put their children in harms way? Seriously . . . if parents are not sure and are feeling pressure, I'm sorry time to grow a backbone and say no or seek a second opinion because that is what parents do. However, don't drum up a boogey man or conspiracy theory where none exists because that IMHO only panders to the fear mongering and intolerance surrounding those of us who live this every day.
"Blockers buy time"..In this time a young person has the tine to feel out their path. Serious stuff for serious kids given with lots of counseling and medical help and parental discussion...Everyone involved..The person becomes educated to make their own choice well before 18.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice Torn
Given comments like "Let children be children", lets do some defining. First I will leave Non-Binary/Non-conforming out of this and just talk transsexuals as the main part of the discussion I am addressing is about transitioning and NB/NC don't transition the same way if at all.
Transsexual individuals are those that transition. The definition in the TS Forum (sticky with definitions):
Transsexual (TS) - An individual who is changing their assigned birth gender permanently to that of the opposite.
So a child or teen goes to their parents and tells them that they got their gender wrong. For those that say that you should let kids be kids and not transition them, you child is now either homeless or dead. That is what happens. They don't go and push their trucks and play with their dolls because they are dysphoric, scared, and sinking fast. You either react or you lose them. So what does transition mean to a child? It mostly means being called by the right name and addressed with the appropriate gender, and then changes to outward appearance. At the age of puberty setting in, it means going on hormone blockers. It doesn't mean HRT and it doesn't mean surgery. Everything is fully reversible. It basically stops the clock so that they can mature to an age that we can say we gate kept them enough that we trust their decision (whether this is right or not, I won't argue in this message).
So it is not an experiment. These are tried and true methods that have been fully studied by experts. Hormone blockers are actually considered extremely safe.
Most of what I just said can also be found here:
http://www.livescience.com/50755-tra...r-puberty.html
I think hormone blockers are a good idea for transsexual children. As far as HRT or sexual reassignment surgery, I think the minimum age should be 21. This is a very important decision and I think the 3 additional years will allow them to gain more maturity, and will enable them to make a better informed decision.
My opinion is that this does not happen, and is not a real concern. Just because more parents are accepting and supportive does not mean all are. I run a support group, and am part of a support organization. I will be meeting with a trans kid this week whose parents are NOT supportive. There is substantially greater support for trans kids here in the DFW area than I experienced growing up here- until you get out into the less populous parts of the state. But "substantially more" is still not great. The trans kids I know of tend to have a lot of problems with other kids. So there is plenty of social pressure to not transition, in addition to pressure from family members. For example, an oft stated objection to transition is "who will love you if you do this." I've heard this a number of times in my group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paula_56
The process here locally goes something like this:
1. Find a gender therapist - talk about gender stuff with the child and their parents. A LOT.
2. Recommend them to the Genecis program at children's medical.
3. Go through a bunch more evaluations
4. If the kid makes it through all that - they get blockers
The administrations in individual schools are also sometimes problems. Both Dallas and Fort Worth have trans supportive school boards. Many of the outlying and rural cities DO NOT, and so for kids in those schools, it is not uncommon for trans kids to discover they can't use the bathroom at school all day. This is because:
1. They are sometimes forced to use the unisex faculty bathroom, but they lack sufficient time between classes to get to it
2. They are forced to use the bathroom that matches their birth certificate. Many would rather avoid this, even if that means not eating or drinking all day to avoid using the restroom. (BTW, I did this too - I wasn't out, but using the boys restroom was always really uncomfortable for me as a kid.)
Aside from all of that, EVERY family of a trans kid I've spoken with has talked to me about problems with bullying their child has encountered in public schools.
It really isn't the case, at least not here in Texas, that a kid can simply declare "I feel like a girl today" and get hormones or surgery.
BTW, getting GCS is quite a process anyway. The top end surgeons, like Marci Bowers (I met with her last week), have multi-year waiting lists at this point. You could approve a trans kid for genital surgery, and there's a decent chance it won't happen until they are over 18 anyway, just because of this. There *are* some surgeons with shorter waiting lists. They tend to not have near the reputations of the surgeons with long waiting lists.
When I was a kid, heck, even when I was 18 and thinking about transition, it seemed like suicide. Now? It's possible for kids to transition. It isn't easy, and in my experience it isn't something anyone pushes, but it's possible. By the way, the kids that do this tend to have, again, in my experience, much better lives than I did. I wasn't able to transition back then. So I was suicidal, and quickly succumbed to alcoholism and drug abuse. I am VERY surprised I didn't die in my late 20's - I certainly wanted to.
If I might ask - how do you know that you won't, one day, transition? I mean, do any of us know our future? At what point do you know for sure someone isn't "just a crossdresser?" Especially if you've decided "their judgement can't be trusted?"
By the way, wouldn't it be a kind of social transition to live openly as a crossdresser? I assume you are talking about "medical transition", but psssh - that's the easy part of this! Why wouldn't you want a young crossdresser to be encouraged to come out, express their gender as they felt appropriate, even if they never wanted to transition medically or legally? Why wouldn't that be a valid outcome? I can assure you that dealing with the comments and pressure from showing up to class looking like a boy one day, and a girl the next, would require really serious effort on the part of the CD kid. Transition is really not, at it's heart, a medical process. Oh, HRT and surgery help a lot of us, but the defining thing about transition - ask any of us who've done it - is the social side of it. I think an open CD kid in many schools would have a very difficult time of it. Would they really allow them to use whichever restroom they felt matched their gender identity that day? Indeed, many of the arguments against trans kids in schools make about ZERO sense when applied to transsexuals, but exactly match the behavior or CDs.
So if you really think about it, if CD kids are being encouraged incorrectly to transition, it's not the affirming people who are primarily responsible, but the ones who are not affirming, because they try to block behavior that's typical for CDs.
Food for thought, anyway.
So, you get 1000 kids from that percentage? That doesn't even make sense. The total kids surveyed was 8500, 34.8% of that is exactly 2958. Lookup Duncan Matthews LGBT Activist, he goes in depth how the figure was calculated. And I'm not arguing the facts with you anymore!Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Tamara - the survey only claims 1.2% of the kids are transgender. 34.8% of the kids surveyed being transgender would make no sense whatsoever... I mean, I'll go back and re-read the paper - but it would be pretty incredible if 34.8% of the kids surveyed identified as transgender and were out. I believe the entire survey sample was 8500. The numbers (32 and 60) in front of the percentages (34.8 and 65.2) were the numbers of kids who identified as transgender, and who answered either "yes, I have disclosed being transgender" or "no, I have not disclosed being transgender". I mean no disrespect, but 2958 transgender kids out of a survey of 8500 would mean that 34.8% of the kids in Auckland were transgender. That would simply be an incredible thing if true! I mean no disrespect, but I simply don't understand how you reach your conclusions... Are we looking at the same paper?
There are roughly 260,000 school age kids in Auckland, if I remember correctly. 1.2% of that - what the survey claimed, would be roughly 3000 kids - what was claimed in the article and by others in this thread. If 34.8% of the 1.2% of kids are out - as listed in the survey data I quoted - that would be roughly 1000 kids who are out as transgender in Auckland. I hope this clarifies what I assume the survey is saying. These numbers make significantly more sense to me than the notion that 34.8% of the children in Auckland are transgender - which is what the numbers you posted seem to suggest to me. Please pardon me if I am misunderstanding you.
edit 2 - I looked for Duncan Matthews, LGBT activist, and really could only find two references, both essentially to the same brief article you linked. My search engine fu is not the best, but I feel pretty sure the survey data they reference is the one I linked from the Journal of Adolescent Health from July 2014 - The Health and Well-Being of Transgender High School Students: Results From the New Zealand Adolescent Health Survey (Youth'12).
Re-read the survey data - the tables make this very clear.
The survey questions regarding disclosure were only counted for students who responded that they identify as transgender, which represented 1.2% of the total kids surveyed. Of that 1.2%, 34.8% had disclosed. So approximately 0.4% of the total survey group are out as trans, aka 32 students out of 8166 surveyed.
That's certainly my reading of it Zooey, and 0.4% being out as trans is in the ballpark of estimates here in the states. This is why I asserted that 3000 out trans students seemed specious. I mean, the ones who aren't out can't exactly be seeking attention, since they haven't told anyone yet, other than an anonymous survey, right?
I am posting a link where you can download a pdf which gives information on the survey.
https://www.fmhs.auckland.ac.nz/asse...2-overview.pdf