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i didnt say support groupQuote:
Originally Posted by NathalieX66
perhaps i shouldnt have said crossdresser clubs, i meant clubs that cater to crossdressing and trans folks, sometimes even having events...
i have never been to the raven...is there something wrong about it that i don't know?
I have tried it, it was a wonderful, fullfilling experiance. I guess I would do it again in th right situatuion.:o
Reine I find that statement to be heart wrenching, for someone who has given (and no doubt received) so much support from the community to feel this way is awful ................ please remember, as we tell all the newer GG's "NOT EVERYTHING YOU READ IS PERTINENT TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP", while many/some/a few feel this way, not all will, and like in any other relationship where there is another serious focus in our partners lives other than us, we need to talk to them and hear their voices & hearts speaking and not our own fears :hugs:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
i second thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Laura_Stephens
My original fantasy was to have my wife be cool with my little voyage of personal discovery, alas, I should not have been so self-delusional.
"CD's are damaged goods".........I actually agree....from a GGs' perspective.
Yes, there is a lot going on inside the head of a CD, and also, inside the minds of everyone else. Why is it impossible for some of us to share who we really are with someone we have committed everything to? Back to the question....dating guys,..me....no...I can understand it though...someone to appreciate the girl side, showing interest, and just being nice.
I am a GG, and that is not my perspective, nor is it the perspective of some other GG's some of whom who are not involved in a "relationship" with a TG person ............ however I do see that said from many CDER's themselves that they view themselves as "damaged" or something similar :sad:Quote:
Originally Posted by shannonFL
I agree with what a couple people have said - maybe at first this thread was something people were looking at out of sexual interest itself (rather than interest in engaging with issues of sexuality), but I think now a lot of the views must be from people who are learning from all the complex arguments being presented. I have learned a lot myself.
I don't know that "damaged goods" is an accurate description. It implies having more issues than others. I prefer to think of it as having some baggage, which we all have, GGs included.
And thanks, Sheila but it is natural to waiver. Even Marla, whose stickies are all over the place here, mentions it. This thread opened my eyes in a huge way and I do need to take the time so absorb it all. I did believe in the Tri-ess party line. It was the link my SO sent me when he first told me about the CDing.
Yesterday I read the online intro (first 3 chapters) to Alice in Genderland. I'd been to his site before, but I'd thought of him as "not the norm" if there is such a thing. Now I just don't know. After this thread, I'm now wondering if Novik's experiences (which seem to mirror everything that's been written here) are perhaps the reason why it is do difficult to talk about certain things in my own relationship.
I generally think of most the CDers, etc. that I run into as "uncertain" goods, "questionable" goods, or, "expensive" goods. Quality (integrity) varies, cost (time) doesn't.
I was, years ago, lucky in that I lived a big city and my first out encounters with the CD/TG/TS community were, in every case, obviously stratified groups of CDers, etc. that could be clearly seen as, "Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced," "over-excited/clueless/naive," "self-gratifying/experimenting/predator."
None of this shocked me, since I tend to pay attention to rankings of people and things anyway. But, it was disturbing to see so many people put themselves (parents/wives/kids/jobs/friendships) at risk, be taken advantage of, and, wasting time and opportunity in pursuits they were generally not very good at and usually weren't sure they wanted to be good at.
Novic's book, as well as Helen Boyd's two books, both eventually end with the male being discussed moving towards being "a woman" and desiring and/or having sex with men. Since that is the case, I very often wonder why these are offered to SOs as things to read about "their" crossdresser, etc, unless the notion is that "If you're going to break the ice, break all of it." On the other hand, it's very possible that very few people recommending these books have actually read them all the way through. It wouldn't be the first time that happened with a topic or issue...
At any rate, over thirty years I've watched one of two things happen: either the CD gets stuck at some early stage of what seems to be an "evolution" - something of an infantile stage of ""Panties and bras, lipstick and hose, Honeys and Darlings and Gals - Oh, my!" or they move on down the path, or, down the slippery slope to to being who they ARE working on being which is a person more aligned with living and working as women and accepting that thoughts or actual sex with men is a given. "Well, you gotta live." CDing, etc. is not just "for fun" and most women realize this instinctively. Some, I have noted, get used to it and make a life with it, others cut themselves loose and live the life they've already created for themselves in THEIR minds and hearts. Good for them. Good for anybody. Usually.
Another thing I have noticed, and I was given a very early "heads up" on it, was that you'll see more beginners and predators floundering/working at meetings and clubs than you will people who are comfortable with themselves and happy to live their lives without so much surprise and drama. "Most people who have it together and aren't out to get something for nothing will never go to a support meeting or out to a gay club. Meetings and clubs not "real" life."
My SOs, and my community friends were very careful with their cautions about what to look out for, what to do and not do. Then they waited to see if I, or, anyone they advised would actually listen to their counsel. The "winners" get it and go live more normal lives (women do not turn themselves on with their workaday foundation garments and makeup) while the "losers" spent much of their time and energy finding various thrills and justifying staying just as they were: "I have a right to me!"
These rights are asserted while ignoring everyone else's right not to like them being who they are...
It was also perhaps lucky in that I was always willing to consider my thoughts and actions as "gay." There was a (secret?) "bonus" payoff in everything that I did. I didn't have to think about it; it was just there. And, it was there because you can't put on the train engineer's outfit without going, "Wooo-woo" at least every once in a while. There's no crime or harm in that - unless you want to deny the desire and argue that you just like the denim, the cap, and, the red hanky - "And, that's all there is to it!" Not so. You like anything enough to do it again and again, you'll find ways to get better at it and do it some more. Problem is what you think/feel "better" is and what amount of "more" is enough.
You can get off the merry-go-round if you want to. You don't have to wreck your life or fall off the roof. But, you do have to wise up and realize the entire scope and size of the activity you're dealing with really is and find a safe place to step aside and watch the rest of the parade go by.
There are various ways, I think, to look at CDing - just to keep this on the simplest example. It can be a gentle or a steep slope, it can be an uphill climb or a downhill slide. Perhaps it depends where you start and what you have to work with. But, I think there's no mistake to be made about what sort of activity it is. It's not a heterosexual activity - which, in my view, is fine. No harm, for example, in thinking about something.. a little... right? And, no harm if that's the way you are... "So long as you're not hurting anybody..." Weak, I know, but you hear it all the time.
My view is that it's a shade-of-gay and can go almost all one color or the other, but which has a difficult time being seen as "just" one particularly fine shade or another. Shades of gray are very hard to tell apart. Shades of gay are too.
I have no expectation that any human being is all one thing or another, not really. Just about anyone can be bought and sold; just about anyone can be tricked; any body can make a mistake; anyone can win the lottery. We're just people. And, as people, we're all heading somewhere in life. How we get there and how we get along with others (and ourselves) has to do with a lot of factors. This OP started with what I consider to be a very loaded question, "innocently" put. A very fine "fishing question", if ever there was one. But one that hides the facts in plain site. Those 22,000 views, for example, say more in raw numbers about those facts than the question seems to offer.
The question asked is:
"How many of us think about being with a guy while crossdressing?"
But, think about that... You're already with a guy.
What are you thinking about him?
What are you thinking you are doing with him/for him/to him?
And, that sort of thing would be...?
And, as for expressing your feminine side, is it generally the case that women "dress up" just to look at themselves?
No, they're acting with purpose and that purpose is directed at others. Certain others.
Get it now?
CDing is a purposeful activity, but, finely studied, it only has one ultimate destination.
"Not that there's anything wrong with that..."
Is there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mklinden2010
How sad, the implication of your words above appears to me to be that CDER's ultimately dress to attract men, if not in the beginning, then in the end............ or am I reading this wrong ?
There may be nothing wrong with dressing to attract men at all, but there is for many of us if,
A) you are in a committed relationship where it is generally assumed that fidelity is part of the contract Written, verbal or by societal implication/usage as deemed to be "the Norm" (please note the usage of GENERALLY ASSUMED)
if your feelings toward the same sex change to include wanting to attract them, after you have entered into A above and you do not inform your current partner
Openness to others in an intimate way in your life is a good thing so long as all parties are in agreement .......... otherwise some people may end up very hurt and angry :sad:
If your words are read as I believe them to mean, then perhaps I am more in agreement with Reine D than I thought earlier ......... I certainly don't need CDing in my life if that is the ultimate outcome :sad: :sad:
Mk
I really liked your post
you said way too much to cover..but one thing i noticed is that i've mostly stopped going to tg outings..you describe the dynamic very well...i have been hit on many times by guys (which i like btw) and they always make a point to tell me they are not gay...i've also been propositioned by other cd's that claim they are not gay and swingers that come to tg events (i've been told i'm the best of both worlds, how romantic :straightface:...)..sex has been a big component in the community and i was very surprised by this at first
i think your characterization of winners and losers is too harsh but leaving that out, the description of the "arc" of many crossdressers is spot on
i have made some great friends and i'm keeping those friends, but now the "events' are dinner at my place or going to a movie...
i think you miss one fact that women do dress up to look at themselves and your idea of certain others should include other women..i think many women would take exception to the idea they only dress to impress men
but when u add it all up...as long as you are honest with yourself and your SO...
there is nothing wrong with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by mklinden2010
That statement is so wrong! That's like saying that everyone that drives is a speeder.
.
This is off topic, but I couldn't just let it go.Quote:
Originally Posted by mklinden2010
It is unfortunate that you find it necessary to label TGs who are at different points in their development as either being winners or losers just because their paths don't follow your own evolution.
If you want to debate this point, you should begin a new thread.
I don't think she meant to call TG's winners and losers as a label Reine. I think it was more from the thinking of the 'winners' have a more clear understanding of what why they are dressing and all that comes with it for them, whereas the 'losers' as she put it are kind of stuck in gear, kidding themselves and exploring for the wrong reasons. Poor choice of words perhaps, but that is how I took it anyway. i could be wrong.
:)
Soriya
same way i took it all so
No matter what motivates someone to CD, or where they are along the continuum, even those who are seemingly "stuck" according to someone else's standards, there are no losers. :Angry3:
We don't need to keep debating this.
As I mentioned in another thread, I had very specific goals that I wanted to fulfill by CDing and none of them involved having any relationship/date with anyone of the same gender. I will, however, be open to the idea of attracting both men and women for the sake of friendship and, in women's case, something more if for some reason they accept me for what I am and why I do this.
With that said, I've already tried having a sexual relationship with another person of the same gender and, while my mind was telling me that "I can do this," my body's response when it came down to the wire was "No way."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheila
Very eloquently put. We are all very different, and if you found 3,000 crossdressers, or TG you would have 3,000 different ideas, beliefs, and very different people. Please don't judge the whole on the few, Reine. As with any group of people, some of us are good, some of us are bad, and most of us believe our own world view is the best...:)
Dear Reine:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I am really not being very good at avoiding getting sucked into this debate, but I have always found you to have a good heart and doing the best you can for all of us. I kind of want to stay out of it. I just let you know this, only because I have my own exhausting experience with my SO over this. I just cannot afford the time it takes as I have already spent it and continue to spend it with my girl. But I want to add some little tidbits that may help in whatever way but I cannot engage myself fully in this discussion for many reasons at this time.
First of all, there are still many generalizations being thrown about here. It is up to you to create, as my wise wife says, your own little world with your SO, and throw out the rest. All the points of view in this thread are valid (empty and harsh judgements aside) for educational and reference purposes.
Generalizations are OK as well, only as far as they help us understand the devils we face. We are all different and we must avoid assuming that what has happened with many will happen to us.
I will try and address some of your concerns in the same order they were expressed. This I will do in a personal sense reflecting my personal experience, as it is what I know.
Yes, at times it has been my SO's experience that we are being pulled apart by forces brought on by my CDing. Yet, she always manages to draw me back and focus on what is most important. But she is a dynamic and explorative partner, both mentally and sexually. Why would I ever go elsewhere? I am currently in a situation not unlike Alice Novic's but my wife has been involved in every part of my evolution and if she really wanted me to stop anything I am doing outside of our own sphere, I would do it now. Yet by her allowing me to wander, it has made our relationship stronger, not weaker. I love her more than ever. Like I said in any earlier post, this is not for everyone. We have spent zillions of hours working out our issues for years. But I can only tell you it has been worth every minute of it.
You speak of nudging husbands to incorporate their wives into their fantasies, yet in the same post you also mention that if we ever place our fantasies as a primary source of eroticism, then we are somehow relegating the wife to some sort of sexual abandonment. Your intentions are the right ones, but you cannot have your cake this way. Husbands and wives often think of many things while making love, not just while self-pleasuring. We do not typically share those thoughts as they would be very hurtful to the other partner. My SO and I have crossed that boundary. She no longer needs to know what I am thinking when I am making love to her because she has been hurt so often by knowing it before. Simply because she would ask me and I would be honest with her. Then she would be upset with me! Yet, as time goes by, I only want her more because we know each other so well. We do everything together and she knows everything I think. If I see a girl I like and I undress her in my mind, she already knows what I am thinking. I do not have to tell her. She does not consider it "cheating". She knows I adore her and I have never ever cheated on her. I should explain that when I see a girl like this I am not necessarily on a sexual thought plain. I love looking at the female form. I enjoy it almost as if I am looking at a beautiful scenery or a pretty garden. I try and not be obvious about it and I try to respect my better half and often I do not look because I am so absorbed looking at her beautiful eyes. And I will tell you the truth. I have absolutely no desire to be with any other woman.
Baggage. Let's not talk about the baggage a GG carries. It is equivalent to what a any given guy carries. Many guys come from abusive households, including myself. Let's stick with the baggage a CD or any tg person carries just because they are. There are high rates of alcoholism, suicide, depression amongst us. Not to mention unreliability, drug abuse, infidelity, etc. Much of this is because we are not accepted in our homes, our schools, our churches, or by our spouses or girlfriends. Worst, we are often not accepted by our own minds.
My quest to look for a guy came about in a very twisted way. Not at all like anyone would imagine. It is a very long story so I will omit it as this is already getting long. But I will say I never dressed to attract a guy. I always dress nicely but I must confess a deep fondness for fishnets and it is not really a sexual thrill for me. I love the way they look and feel. They are beautiful and I hate their historical association with bordellos. I will not let that stop me from wearing them if I like them! I know many GG's that dress nicely and/or sexily and they do not do it to attract guys. Now that I have a guy I will try to dress for him and the worst part is he could care less and does not even notice! The assumption that once we taste the pleasure of being with a guy we will want more and more is reasonable. But I do not see that happening in my case.
I do not want to be TS nor do I want to get rid of my anatomy, as you say. We need to keep some perspective. Many if not most of the members of this site are married and have families and function fairly well and have not interest in guys. There is wide diversity. We cannot say they are in denial of their own nature. But people can evolve and I am no longer sure we are born with a certain sexuality, at least not all of us. I always thought of myself as heterosexual and never thought I would end up where I am, but I have the type of woman that encourages me to pursue my fantasies. I do not think I would ever be in this situation if it was not because of her. I still think of myself as heterosexual as my relationship with my boyfriend is not sex-focused. We are friends first and I am in it more for the social interaction than anything else. It has been deeply gratifying but it will never replace my wife.
And to the final point, which I guess is what made me write this post in the first place. I am looking at it and maybe it makes no sense to send it to you. But since I spent all this time writing it, I will anyway. Just use whatever you want of it, if any, and discard the rest. Please do not be sad about being with a CD. The fact that we can be multi-faceted in the bedroom makes for very interesting and satisfying sex. You just have to be open to let it happen. We can also be very sensitive, intuitive, emotional, communicative, and many other things that many women find their men lacking. You have to decide if your partner is right for you, but not on the basis of his CDing. Just because he CDs does not mean he will be unfaithful either. You would not believe the hundreds of married men that approached me while I was looking for a guy. I was not interested in sex at the time, and I abhorred being looked at as a sex toy of some kind. But obviously this is what they wanted, all unbeknownst to their partners. I just cannot imagine what many regular (heterosexual) guys do behind their wives' backs. You are interesting, persistent, intelligent, hard-working, perceptive, and caring. You remind me a lot of my SO, to tell you the truth. We have put a lot of work into our relationship and it has worked for us and continues to work. I can not see my life without her. It made me sad to think you were sad about anything here. There are lots of happily married CD's here. Do not forget that.
To all those that may want to hammer me for anything I said here just save it. I realize there may be some contradictions, etc. I am very sensitive and I may not be able to handle it all. I also might not respond because I am a very busy girl. I am only meaning to help a bit. I thought about sending Reine a private, but she may be getting a lot of those anyway. And if there is anyone that can use any bit of my piece then it is a good thing...
Mklinden2010, I read your post, though it took me a couple of readings to digest it. It's all worthy discussion. One thing I can't relate though, is how you mentioned that CD'ing isn not a heterosexual act. OK, maybe....but it isn't necessarily a homosexual act either. You would have to involve the thought of being with a same sex partner to be a homosexual act. All I know is, speaking for myself, when I was between the ages of 6-12, I found the whole aspect of women's garments and the way women groomed themselves very intriguing. I coould never understand why, at that age, such a thing was taboo if I engaged in such dressing. I've heard words like autogynephilia and paraphila, but since when does that apply as a rule? is crossdressing uniquely a western socioety phenomenon? At that age, I wanted all us boys & girls to be able to do the same things, without social repercussions. I had expectations that society would be one big gender blur, and that there was no such thing as gender-specific clothing. I really never developed any interest in boys. They are too physically like me, I thought....so what's the point?
I would never, ever give Alice Novic's book or Helen Boyd's books to a wife of a CD, and I can't imagine where the notion they would be good for wives came from. (Not all crossdressers are inevitable TSs and/or want to be with men, and reading those would just scare the heck out of a wife.)
If anyone is looking for a book to give your wife, I can't recommend "My Husband Wears My Clothes" highly enough. JoAnn Roberts' "Coping With Crossdressing" is also very good.
Michelia, thank you for your response. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelia
For the record, I have been supportive of my SO's CDing since the beginning. It was because of my acceptance and encouragement that she gained the courage to begin going out in public. Her goal was to be able to do just about everything in gal mode that he does in guy mode. She did accomplish this and she does go out frequently in the mainstream, either alone or with me.
I've been in this forum for some time, talking to many GGs, here and in my personal life. My reasons for being here are to lend support and encouragement to the GGs who come here unsure of their SO's CDing. I am therefore familiar with the concerns that many GGs have in their relationships with their SOs. I am not saying that relationships with CDers are doomed, just that GGs do have concerns. This is not a stretch considering we do have a support forum specifically to address the GGs' concerns.
Most of my comments were attempts at bringing the GGs' concerns, based on my past conversations with them, to this thread. It was not meant as an attack.
In the process, I learned a few things that I was not previously aware of. That the Tri-ess stance omits certain truths. This thread corroborates this, as does Novic's book. So be it. If this is a generalization, then the generalization is not mine to make.
This does not mean that I believe that a relationship between a GG and a CD is now doomed to failure. Quite the contrary. But it does mean that it will only succeed if there is honesty and communication. Lots of it.
Thanks again for your thoughtful post.
:hugs:
First off, hello. New here...etc.... It's been a real pleasant eye opener for me to see a crossdressing forum that isn't mainly about fantasy and sex, especially on a thread which started as a question about, erm... sexual fantasies.
I've only skimmed this thread so apologies if I say things already mentioned. In answer to the original question, I've never really seen gender, only people and can be attracted to anyone if they push the right mental buttons. I have my sexual preferences but they are many, varied and my own. All legal, all consensual and, hopefully, morally fine. For all those espousing monogamy, faithfulness and honesty, I'm with you.
The one thing I've noticed which concerned me was the thought a GG would read this and ascribed views expressed to their own crossdressing partner. I can't stress enough how different we all are. The most glamorous, gorgeous, girly tv I have ever known runs an engineering firm, spend as much time fixing up motorbikes as fixing her make up, is 100% hetrosexual and - as far as I can tell - faithful.
I've found the only thing which connects all of us is the crossdressing. The range of views, attitudes, morals and sexualities is as diverse as in any other part of society. So please GGs, don't assume that because I love being with men means your partner is likely to. For many, crossdressing has been a solitary activity which involves making the most of what little time is available and that understandably leads to fantasising. Again for many, that's all it is and I think there are few of us who haven't dreamt of doing something we either can't or shouldn't. It doesn't mean we will do it or that we have something missing in our lives. A little private (as in, in the mind) escapism can be healthy.
Finally, and sorry if this is off topic, society doesn't accept transgenderism so it says a lot about a GG that she would even consider accepting it in her partner. Add to that the fact that it is extremely unlikely a hetrosexual woman would be attracted to a feminine appearance and that level of commitment is astonishing. Thank you to those who make any attempt at understanding and acceptance and please believe me when I say what any one of us says is likely to be a million miles from what your partner feels. x
It seems we're all trying to describe all the shades of grey between black and white, with various amounts of pink thrown in. Impossible!
I could write a thesis on this, but would still not clarify a thing. I'll only offer a comment based on my own tragic experience. I'm divorced. I lost the love of my life over this. Not worth it! I would have and could have given it all up rather than divorce. Especially now, looking back, I can say that with absoulute certainty.
It was my fault. For decades I had lived on the barely-passing-as-a-male edge. At the time the sh*& hit the fan I was closer than I'd ever been. Far too close for her, as it turned out. She'd given me lots of freedom and encouragement over the years, but in the end she saw it all leading to me living full time as a woman. During what was perhaps our last "discussion" on the subject when I was trying unsucessfully to convince her that I was "just a crossdresser", she said, "No you're not! You're a WOMAN!
Several times over our three decades of marriage she had told me that she didn't know if she could "give me what I wanted", infering that I had some need or desire to be with a man. I assured her that I had no desire to be with a man. I suppose I was never able to convince her of that. It was the truth.
She saw all of this as a black and white issue. It's easy to see where she was coming from. The evidence was pretty overwhelming when looked at from an objective view. I didn't hide it. I didn't think I had to. I relished being in the open with her, never realizing that this put it all "in her face". I was oblivious. Over a period of time it wore on her. There was just no escaping it. Every day she saw the makeup, nailpolish, curlers, etc. on my side of the vanity. She washed my bras and panties and girlie clothes and put them away in overstuffed drawers and closets. She saw and felt my shaved body. She winced when someone would comment on my long nails or my long hair, or my earrings. My hair was longer than hers. My nails were longer than hers. My clothes were a smaller size. My clothes were more feminine, and I had more of them. I took time off work and time away from her to get my hair and nails done. I took overnight trips out of town specifically to indulge my feminine side. Irrefutable evidence that I wanted to be a woman (or was one), and in her black and white world, women want to be with men.
She was wrong about me wanting to be with a man, but on many other levels she was right. I loved "being a woman", and I had intentionally become more and more so, to the point that there just wasn't much male side left. What she either didn't realize, or it no longer mattered, was that all she had to do was say, "Baby, you've had your fun, and I thought I could play along, but I can't do it anymore. I don't want you to be my girlfriend anymore. I want you to be my husband."
It probably wouldn't have been immediate, and I wouldn't have been completely happy about it, but I would have and could have done it. The thing that made my life complete was being with her. Not being a woman. Certainly not being with a man. Her. It was too late.
I've been divorced for some time now. For a period of time I toyed with the idea that maybe she was right about me being a "woman". I'm not. As it turns out, I didn't have to give it all up, although I did for a while. My current girlfriend encourages a certian amount of cross-gender stuff. Her idea, not mine. I'm extremely lucky in that regard. I don't crossdress 1/100th that I did when I was married. Don't even feel the "need" to. I'll say again, I could have and would have given it all up. I wish I'd been given the opportunity to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean
Wow. Rhonda Jean, your honesty is awe inspiring. :hugs: I wanted to quote your entire story, I appreciate your sharing it so much.
I do understand the part about your wife only being able to see the black and the white, and not the shades of gray. As GGs we understand our own motives, we understand the motives of non-CDs through our lifelong exposure to men, and so not being TG, it is difficult for us to understand anything in between.
I am so sorry that it played out this way for you. :sad:
Please tell me, what do you make of the majority of the respondents in this thread who want to be with men? Did you not fantasize about this? Didn't you go through a phase of wondering what it would be like? And what are your thoughts about those who point out that Tri-ess omits a basic truth about CDs, that fantasies about sex with men as a woman is a part of it and always has been since their youth?
Thank you for taking the time to respond to this. I really do need to hear your answers.
:hugs: