I think it means being genuine: being true to the self, without being held back by other people's beliefs or expectations of who you should be.
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I think it means being genuine: being true to the self, without being held back by other people's beliefs or expectations of who you should be.
Everyone has a different path that they must follow, and for most TS it takes them from the TG world eventually into the mainstream world. That is not a bad thing of in of itself, and although the will not apply to the vast majority of TS and their experiences, I feel the need to share this story.
I have a TS friend who is very near and dear to me, who started out only dressing a couple times a month, and then eventually transitioned, went on HRT and had her SRS. As part of her transition, her gender shrink told her to dress more like every other GG and to get involved with various activites and groups and such GGs her age were doing. She walked away from the regional TG community and was completely mainstreamed.
Well... that lasted for a few years.
Everyone who knew her, knew about her past life and that she was a TS (and knew her as a man.) Moving away to somewhere no one knew her was not an option due to poor health and her fixed income as a retired person. She is very tall for a woman her age, has a growly voice that never really changed, has broad shoulders, a large frame and some prominent male facial features. In other words, after all the HRT, the RLT and SRS, she is still clocked as being born male and is read often, and where her story differs from the majority.
As it turns out, mainstream society was not (and still is not) very kind to her. Her efforts backfired when she tried to get involved with women's groups, overall they rejected her because of her past life and her residual male appearance, and it all really hurt her feelings. Whenever she dressed up nicely, even just for a special event, as she likes to do (and as she says, a woman of her age do), she was on the receiving end of catty comments from more than a few women. She tried dating cisgender men, all of whom in the end either only wanted sex because she was a TS, or would not be seen out with her in public at mainstream places; the lesbians rejected her because she was not a "real woman".
Years after she left the TG community behind and became a "real, mainstream woman"... she came back and is now involved with the community again. After all she has been through, she feels most accepted where she started. She said she learned that for someone who is different and cannot escape that fact, mainstream society is not all it is cracked up to be, and that she learned this the hard way. She said it is ironic, the kindest people in the world to her today, and the ones who relate to and appreciate her most... are crossdressers; in the end, being a man in a dress is exactly what she hated and never wanted to be, and were the exact people who ended up being the kindest to her of all. And in the end, she even ended up engaged to a crossdresser.
Isn't it all just a matter of different perspectives?
Some people get an education and go into teaching, in their opinion they are not being "held back" by students, others finish their education and go on into the worlds of business, sport or whatever. In doing so they inevitably lose touch with some they knew as a student - does that make them a better/worse person than the one who went into teaching? Not at all - it makes them different.
Some people like to be advocates on behalf of others whose causes have touched them in some way, others feel like that makes you a professional activist and use that term in a negative way. Who is right? Both and neither.
We occasionally upset people if we say that we will be sad to see them go and to lose the friendship and counsel that they have offered. Expressing our personal feelings need not be a way to hold the other back, but is merely being honest.
In the end, those who feel the need to move on from communities such as this have every right to do so. We grow and we change; were we wrong before or are we wrong now? Neither, we have simply evolved. Equally, those who chose to stay and/or act as advocates for the community have a right to do that without being looked down upon.
Let's just celebrate who we are and not worry about why some people stay and others go.
There is really so much room under the big tent of TG that to divide ourselves is silly. Our love is what makes us real (from "Velveteen Rabbit"), we all can be friends and try to understand our differences. Just like any group of people we vary from the closeted CD at one end to the totally stealth TS at the other. In fact though the majority of us lie in the belly of the bell curve and are just TG. It's likely any real political change or social acceptance will be produced from this "middle group", in fact this is happening already.
I have not started any treatment yet, but I am waiting on my appointment at the gender clinic, I'm looking forward to it, and yes I often look into my future and I would feel that at some point I would prefer not to be tagged with the letters T and S the rest of my life. Saying that, if everyone felt that same way, would there be people who are "out and proud" fighting for our rights and outing themselves solely for that purpose?
It seems that would make sense Michelle for sure. I'm not transitioning, but since beginning of the year have been going to support group meetings, shopping once enfemme, and out to 2 clubs. I guess I'm heading the other way at the moment!
But it makes total sense from the direction you're heading in....
There is a difference when you say that your own personal growth as a crossdresser is leading you somewhere vs saying you understand why ts people "leave the community" ..or that you have negative feelings towards us..or that we somehow divide the "community" when we chose to move on become ourselves..
people that transition universally learn how different crossdressing is vs living day to day in a female role..
it's hard to debate this point because unless you go through it, its not something you can easily speak to..
although i'm sure michelle you didn't mean it this way, it feels terrible to me when you say you understand why the ts person leaves and that it causes negative feelings..
I don't think you understand at all ..you would not say anything negative about it if you did...
its not comparable to your growth as a crossdresser (which is very positive and wonderful thing btw).
Transition is permanent and total. There is no dual nature, no transgender feeling, no FUN(as it relates to dressing)....
we risk our health and our lives, we endure physical pain, we hurt the people we love the most and we sever the past, and in many cases leave everything behind to rebuild a better life..
There is an obvious similarity in that we need to learn femaleness just like crossdressers, we are both shunned by the majority of society, and for me anyway, i spent alot of time thinking of myself as a crossdresser and having alot of fun..but for the ts it's a phase (that many ts people never have btw).
Lay off the ts women that "leave the community"...begrudging moving on just highlights how little you really know about what transition means to the transsexual person.
I am not begrudging them in any way. I am very happy for them. I feel like they are achieving their goal of being a true woman and the TG community ties them to their past. That past is something which interferes with their acceptance in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
I had a TS woman tell me once that it is the duty of every person to tell those behind her about their experiences in the hope that the ones behind them will have it easier than they did. I think we as cd'er must do the same thing.
your op said more than what you are saying now..
you said
"I always thought badly towards the TS girls after they transition and disappear from the community. Now I am beginning to understand since I am feeling that same feeling. While my feelings are those of just a cd'er, I see the simularities."
I'm saying that the similarities are superficial. I'm saying it's not the same feeling...
it's a false and damaging narrative to say that ts people somehow owe "the community"
the costs of transition are so high in every way, it's an unrealistic burden to owe anybody anything.
why does anyone assume that ts women don't tell those behind us about our experiences??
every transsexual person i know quietly advises other transsexuals on important matters around transition..
there comes a point for most where the endgame is to disappear, but don;t underestimate everything that's done prior to help prior to that...
and even those that are "deep stealth..what a term!" often communicate and help others like secret spies..
If you are one of the few people that accept yourself as you are and have the strength to live your life as you want it does make senese. If you were an addict and you cleaned yourself up would it make sense to hang out with addicts? If you were someone who used to do high risk behaviors and then you stopped would it make sense to hang out with the people you did before when you were doing the high risk behaviors?
If you are one of the few trans people that make it to the point I made in my first line of the post why would you want to continue to want to hang out with people that are so far behind you still trying to firgure out what they are. Finally spare me the line that you could help other trans people. I only laugh at that. Trans people as a whole dont listen to other people including trans people.
Katie
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAMichelle
Well I guess I kind of qualify as one of the "transitioned".
I man at this point I have done about all I can do with my limited funds and looks and whatever. I don't "pass" so greatly but let me give some feedback on this -
YOu really do get to a point where gender is no longer an issue. Maybe you pass maybe not, you quit caring, not in an apathetic way but just in a sense of you quit obsessing over it. I have to go to the BMV today to renew registration on my car, and of course explain my legal name change. Know what I am gonna wear? Same thing I always do - faded black sweats, no makeup, and hair combed. I don't care if they see "male" or "female". Why will I dress like this? Cause it is comfy.
I am me. Let people see what they want.
It is nice when people call me "ma'am" over the phone, as I know my voice is not giving me away. I still do get a bit of a rush out of that.
One really fun part is when people do know I am TS and I get questions about what is in my pants. (not post-op BTW)
With employment, when I get turned down for jobs, even though I DO dress well for interviews, I always wonder if they are discriminating. I don't know if they see some tranny or a woman. Not something I can really ask them. I guess in a recession, finding a job is hard either way.
But ultimately, when you get to a point where living full time as a woman is reached, honestly folks, you kind of start thinking, "is THIS really the big deal I thought it was gonna be?"
As a TS, I envy the CDs. At least they can still get enjoyment out of all this.
"It always astounds me how people can give advice based on their personal opinion, or what they learn on forums such as this, or from articles that they read in books, or on the internet.... without the benefit of actually living the life 24/7 365 in the real life. Leave the advice to the professionals!" Kellycan27
When I walk into a store as a CD, and I'm not read, my experience is different than a TS who went in and WAS read. Who's a "professional"? Does time? Does desire? Ability? Future intentions on how to live? I have just as much validity to express my opinion on this experience and what has been learned as the TS does. (Maybe more, because what I did made it possible to not get read!) But I'm being told to NOT give advice on personal opinion but the TS can. That's like me telling you to stop giving advice about relationships because I've been married 35 years (to the same woman) and you don't have that track record yet. You do have your own experiences to draw on, as well as others relationships you saw fail and may know why. I didn't have to break my leg to know it hurt, or how not to jump off a cliff to prevent it. I read or saw about it. But your logic suggests I not say anything to anyone until I break my own leg. (How many limbs does one have to break to be a "professional" limb breaker?)
In an earlier post I was told it's not about "YOU". Wanna know something? It IS about me. It's also about you. It's about everyone that has had the TS/CD/TG label and any other label that fits on this forum. We all took that first step. We all have our experiences. It's about friendships started and friendships ended. (For whatever reasons). For some it's a feeling of loss. Loss of family. But you're right. Know body is obligated to stick around.
I understand your desire to not have this turn into a "us against them" argument". Yet I couldn't help but reread your posts and see you have many statements that can be construed as us against thems. As you, I do not want a us against them. I may have been wrong in how I approached my sentence " I don't understand why they ignore us..." It should have read "I don't understand why most of the TS I've ever known ignore us..." I have had many, many years of experience in the L.G.B.T. community. I have met and are friends with countless of the same. It is my (read: mine only) experience based on the TS that I have been associated with, almost all have followed the path of non association with CD's after they transition. I'm not holding it against them - any more than I hold it against friends that I don't get Christmas cards from anymore.
You're last sentence caught me off sided. And I am genuinly curious as to your way of thinking on it. " I will freely admit that I really don't understand why a man would want to wear women's clothing". Do you say this because you feel "men" are CD's and "women" are TS? Does every TS have to transition? By clinical definition every CD and TS IS a man. (A person with two X chromosomes is female, and a person with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome is male.) So, you, by definition are a man. And you seem to enjoy dressing as a woman.
So I guess I'm not following your thought patttern.
Maybe i should have worded it differently. I don't understand whay a man who "clearly states" that he has no desire to be a woman.. wears women's clothing. When I said that it wasn't about "you".. meaning you as a person wether you be cd or TS, passable, not passable, whatever. It more about the tg community as a whole. You have recounted your experiences with cd's and other transsexuals so I will in turn recant my experiences. It has been my experience that almost every cd.ts.tg person that I have ever met can't seem to get over the fact that they are (insert label). Their lives, their livelyhoods and their focus seems to be all about being transgender. Granted, we all have to start somewhere, but how long must we stay in limbo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie Miller
if someone wishes to be an advocate, flag waver, proud member of the TG community, or hang out at tg venues, associate with other so the same mind.. more power to them. I respect their work and dedication. What I have found is that there is more to life than being a transsexual. I have moved on, and again (just so you don't get offended) I don't mean I am better or know more, I just think differently than maybe you do.
My comment on "leaving the advice to the professionals" stemmed from the comments that s couple people made about staying around to council and advise those who are coming up. How many times have I seen people giving "advice" ( as opposed to opinion) on GID, HRT, relationships etc, who are clearly not qualified to do so? I personally don't feel qualified to give such advice. If you or others do... knock yourself out!
So why can't you accept the humble admission that she had been wrong in the past?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
I will start with that last misstatement. By stating that every CD and TS is a man you are doing a great disservice to the FtM's on these forums - or don't you believe that there can be such a thing? You are not even right that every MtF TS is clinically a man - we may have the sex organs of a man but we do not have a clinically male brain - although I will not volunteer to let you dissect my brain to prove the truth of that statement whilst I am alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie Miller
Again, your contention that every male has one X and one Y chromosome and that every female has only two X chromosomes does an enormous disservice to those who were born XXY or XYY or even XXYY - all of these combinations exist in real life but according to your over simplification they cannot be either male or female, so what do you want us to call them?
Why do you get offended that Kelly does not understand why people who self-identify as men want to wear women's clothing? Go back through the MtF forum and count up the number of times that certain CD'ers proclaim that they are, have always been and will always be a man yet these same people say that they want to wear women's clothing. Confused? You will be.
Though at one time you were one of those ( in body ).Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
Live your life as works best for you, I agree. IF someone ( & I'm not saying you are ) decides to hide that they were born with a male body from intimate people in their life, they're living with a ticking time-bomb.
I don't recall ever feeling like a man. I did qualify my statement to say a man that clearly identifies as a male and dresses. I agree that hiding the fact from intimate people would be a big mistake. My husband knows ( he was with me during my srs) lol My family and friends know, and my co-workers know. For anybody else they are welcome to take a guess either way. Is she or isn't she? I am just not going to hang a sign around my neck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab Karen
You can see that I amended it to clarify, the biology of a man. And I didn't see that newer post when I wrote my comment. But some may feel like both ( though you don't have to understand it- as long as people are treated with respect ). I will point out I did not say or imply that you should tell the world about it ( but maybe like me you are saying things for more than just the person responding ).Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
You and I have talked about this in the past, :hugs: and I can understand that as a woman who is solidly at one end of the binary gender paradigm, it's difficult for you to understand not being either one or the other, or in other words, being both. Until I became involved with this community, specifically my SO, I didn't understand it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
The thing is, a TS has a definite goal, which is to move from one end of the gender binary to the other, in her appearance and as she is seen and accepted by others. It's bound to be uncomfortable during the process especially if she begins later in life and it makes sense that during this time her life would revolve around transition issues. But, there is an end in sight for her, hopefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
There are other individuals who are neither male nor female: a third gender so to speak, which is a combination of both. The goal is not to become permanently female, but to learn to live happily with both genders that sometimes conflict, in a world that will only accept one or the other.
I think it is even more difficult for someone who is not happy being purely a man, and who doesn't see herself eradicating her male gender entirely, to reach inner balance and peace. And I do think that most CDs fall somewhere in there. It's got to be confusing! Just imagine having to live a life perched on top of a fence because this is where your true gender lies, while people on each side are trying to pull you off to their side because they don't understand that a valid solution for the CDs/TGs is to try to make a life up there. So is it any surprise that living like this seems to take up so much energy? These TGs are not stuck in denial because they are fearful of transition. Rather, the geometric plane which is formed by each side of the fence needs to expand to a three dimensional space where there is ample room for those sitting on top of the fence who feel they belong there.
OK ... I'm not TG and I can't say that what I've described is accurate, but it is the best understanding I have of the situation.
"OK ... I'm not TG and I can't say that what I've described is accurate, but it is the best understanding I have of the situation.
Reine"
I'd call that a pretty good job.
Yes, I was responding in the general. And yes, I know that I don't need to understand it, and you may even have been correct when you said.. "though you were one too" , that may well be true, but i probably didn't understand it then either :heehee: i don't have an issue with anything you have said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab Karen
Kel
I totally understand what you are saying, and I am not faulting anyone for who what or where they are in the spectrum. All I am trying to say is that I am not in that place, and those issues are no longer the issues that I have to deal with on a on going basis. People act like they are being attacked when this is clearly not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I agree .. no one should be faulted for making the decisions they need to make for themselves. :hugs:Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
You are right Rianna in that I did not include all X's and/or Y's with all combinations thereof. I just got to carried away with a thought pattern. I meant no offense to anyone. Just trying to get a thought across and forgot to think it out.
As for the "Why do you get offended that Kelly does not understand"....
Please re-read. I said I was genuinly curious on her way of thinking. Nowhere did I say I was offended. There might have been once in all the posts Kelly and I have shared in the past where I might have been ticked - but I can't think of any. I highly enjoy Kelly's discussions and thought patterns. I just wanted more of her clearification of that statement. She has always in the past held herself to a high standard of "debate" on this forum and I can only assume she was not feeling hurt or threatened by my post - but mearly expressing her side. (At least I hope so.) Besides all that, I haven't seen her on here in a while, and I for one am glad to see her around.
(Hi Kelly, and congrats on all you've had going on :wave: )
Nope Stephanie.. I am not upset or offended in the least, and I am glad you aren't either. You and I have always gotten along wether we have agreed on something or not. :hugs: I don't see any reason to change that now. ( Not that disagree here, just different opinions)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie Miller
Kel
Therein lies the importance of this site and the ongoing support from people like Michelle. Many of us do not know where we are on that spectrum of gender identities, or because of our own self image, family cirucumstances, etc. simply cannot imagine moving completely to the female idenity permanently nor full time. It might be a dream, an enduring longing, or a source of lingering pain, but its where we are. We're not all professionals, but it helps to have fellow travelers on this journey.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Reine wrote about the conflict that many T's battle. I know that I am conflicted and probably shallow in my thinking as well. To me,a T is a female impersonator,with some better at it than others.We weren't born with female genitals,some of us may have bought them,but we aren't the "real deal". I enjoy hearing about the experiences of full time T's as well as transitioned T's.I am shallow because I am into the presentation aspect of the life.So,someone like TamaraV and her world interests me.As does Kelly,in that she has honed her skills to a point where she could work in the corporate world,without making waves.And there are lots more that blend in and do it.It seems that the energy that some of us put into our look,is equal to what many in transition put into analysis through therapy,and some care very little about their female impersonation skills. And,I enjoy hearing of this as well as the hurdles of transition. So,I do miss the input of certain people when they leave us.:2c: