Are the wives and SO's who try to impose DADT on us fundamentally control freaks...

I'm in a DADT marriage. I can emphatically state my cross dressing is not the problem in our marriage. She does not like cross dressing and will make comments when it is shown in the media. I suspect they are barbs thrown my way to let me know she does not approve. When we were first married there was some bedroom play with lingerie; nightgowns and hosiery. No big deal. We put that aside when a child was born. When we both realized my interest in cross dressing was more than bedroom play, it eventually became DADT. Even going to see Dustin Hoffman in 'Tootsie' was difficult for her. The same with the Robin Williams flick, Mrs. Doubtfire. My interest in cross dressing and her aversion to it has more to do with her view of herself. Her insecurities from her childhood and young adult life prior to knowing her has played havoc in our marriage. I find it difficult that I fully accepted her, but, she reject me for who I am. Had I known how our lives would progressed, I would never have married her. To give up all aspirations for a person, and, to be rewarded with rejection makes one search his soul. I realize at my age, there are limitations now in trying to achieve what I should have tried years ago.

However, having given up decades of dreams and made compromises, any change in DADT will not be tolerated. My cross dressing is my last safe harbor I have for self expression. I will not lose it. So. although a wife may not be a 'control freak,' her attitude will surely become controlling. So, for you younger cross dressers, when your wife gives you an ultimatum to purge your femme clothing or take the highway, take the highway.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

This is the world I currently live in, and no longer feel any guilt or shame over being transgendered. If anything, I now embrace it, frequently go out in public en femme , and find total acceptance everywhere I go - except at home. I just wish my wife would also get in tune with the times and join me in this kinder, gentler world...

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If you were her acquaintance, she'd probably be intrigued by you as well. But, you're not. This holds true for many (most?) people. It also explains why CDers go out without suffering negative consequences, for the most part. It is easier to approach a situation or a person with an open mind when it is not in one's back yard, especially if it is a client. SAs and nail techs know they can go home to their own "normalcy" and so they do not need to redefine their romantic gender roles with someone whom they are spending an hour or two.

I know, Reine, and I've made that same point myself before...

Probably wishful thinking on my part, but I just wish that my wife would get over the notion that crossdressing is some evil, perverted, disgusting, and depraved activity that "real" men don't indulge in, and that to be "outed" would make us the laughingstock of the world, and she could never show her face in public again.

All the evidence indicates that the world is becoming a safer, more understanding, and more welcoming place for people like us, so why can't she get past her entrenched and out-dated biases and get with the program?

I find this so frustrating, especially since I have been able to accept some of her own quirks - of which she also has many - and which often have no basis in logic, being typically ascribed to "women's prerogative" or the like when questioned.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

Probably wishful thinking on my part, but I just wish that my wife would get over the notion that crossdressing is some evil, perverted, disgusting, and depraved activity that "real" men don't indulge in, and that to be "outed" would make us the laughingstock of the world, and she could never show her face in public again.

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I didn't say this in my prior post, but I also wish that your wife could at least come to see how difficult it is for you that she cannot acknowledge a part of who you are. :sad:

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

So, for you younger cross dressers, when your wife gives you an ultimatum to purge your femme clothing or take the highway, take the highway.

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What a powerful testimonial.

I sometimes wonder if my wife would have a similiar response to me if I told her I was always a poet or painter at heart and began changing my career. She'd likely feel this was not what she was promised when we married and I've failed to live up to my end of the bargain.

Just thinking out loud and planning to keep my day job :-)

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Originally Posted by Tara D. Rose

Of course not all wives. But I do feel all wives had a problem with it one way or the other, at least to some large or small degree. It wasn't like a wife said, what's that? you're a cross dresser?, oh okay, no problem, where are we going to eat tonight?

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My wife has no problem with it whatsoever, though she knew about my gender issues and saw photos of me in girl mode before me even met for the first time in person.

The story is often entirely different when the husband isn't honest early on, before commitments are made. In those cases you not only have issues with wives not being accepting of the crossdressing, you have wives with issues related to the keeping of secrets and lying by omission.

Frankly, I feel that making the wife out to be some sort of a control freak because she's not giving the husband a pass on these issues is a clear case of shifting the blame. If the husband is knowingly not being honest and forthright, he needs to own the responsibility and the fallout.

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Originally Posted by Erica2Sweet

My wife has no problem with it whatsoever, though she knew about my gender issues and saw photos of me in girl mode before me even met for the first time in person.

The story is often entirely different when the husband isn't honest early on, before commitments are made. In those cases you not only have issues with wives not being accepting of the crossdressing, you have wives with issues related to the keeping of secrets and lying by omission.

Frankly, I feel that making the wife out to be some sort of a control freak because she's not giving the husband a pass on these issues is a clear case of shifting the blame. If the husband is knowingly not being honest and forthright, he needs to own the responsibility and the fallout.

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I guess I should have given more thought when I said all wives have had a problem with cd husband's at first, I said that with the assumption that they are already married and then are found out or are told after marriage.

"...Frankly, I feel that making the wife out to be some sort of a control freak because she's not giving the husband a pass on these issues is a clear case of shifting the blame. If the husband is knowingly not being honest and forthright, he needs to own the responsibility and the fallout..."

Sounds eminently reasonable on the surface, Erica, but unfortunately, life isn't always that black and white.

Yes, I fully "own" that part of the problem - and no, I'm not making any excuses here - but any discussion touching on this area needs to take into consideration the fact that the members of this forum are multi-generational, and those of us who were youngsters in the 50's and 60's when so little information regarding crossdressing was available are at a distinct disadvantage compared to those young crossdressers coming of age in today's world.

Like many others of my generation, we had no one to reach out to, had to wrestle with this issue of gender dysphoria all by ourselves, and usually believed that we were the only people on earth who had these "strange" inclinations. And growing up in a world where men were men and women were women, gender roles were strictly defined with no deviation from the norm tolerated, and where in most jurisdictions, it was open season on homosexuals and engaging in homosexual acts was still grounds for imprisonment - of course we tended to both hide and suppress this deep, dark secret of ours. Besides, like myself, most of us probably thought that this was a passing phase, and once we had a girlfriend and became sexually active, these strange urges would go away - NOT!

There is way more information regarding all aspects of crossdressing and transgenderism available out there to the current generations - all one has to do is a Google search on the Internet to come up with thousands, if not millions, of hits on this topic and educate oneself to one's heart's content. Even the mere existence of this forum is a testimonial that, not to mention this very on-line discussion with so many interesting POV's emerging out of it.

So yes, mea culpa - but with reservations.

But my other point was that I have educated myself regarding my crossdressing over the years using the methods I alluded to above, have a much clearer idea of why I am the way I am, and no longer wear a hair shirt in penance over it. Any reasonable person is open to changing their minds on a given issue when new information is presented to them that might now modify previously held views. All I would ask is that our DADT wives and SO's do the same if they truly loved us, and not continue to treat us so harshly because they cling to outdated ideas and refuse to open their minds.

It is for that reason that I can't help but believe that the problem goes deeper than just an aversion to our crossdressing, and is more symptomatic of a fundamental and deep-seated need to control us in other aspects of our lives as well.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

...having given up decades of dreams and made compromises, any change in DADT will not be tolerated. My cross dressing is my last safe harbor I have for self expression. I will not lose it. So. although a wife may not be a 'control freak,' her attitude will surely become controlling. So, for you younger cross dressers, when your wife gives you an ultimatum to purge your femme clothing or take the highway, take the highway.

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When we read about ultimatums being given by wives over the crossdressing issue, my wife and I often wonder if crossdressing is really the only issue weighing on the relationship in question. When it comes to understanding people and how we think, I'm a realist, but I personally find it hard to believe so many wives would be willing to just give it all up unless there were also more significant issues bogging down the relationship that may or may not be related to the crossdressing. If there's really nothing else impacting the relationship in a negative way, then we're saying that it's OK to choose selfish indulgence over the person in our life that are supposed to "love and cherish until death do us part". Saying that there's dignity in that is a pretty tough sell.

Also, I would hope anyone reading this would realize that learning effective communication and negotiating skills would, in many of these circumstances, be a wiser alternative to cutting and running from one's commitments and responsibilities. If there's anything I can think of that's worth fighting for, it would be a happy marriage.

I'm not so sure Leslie, I think they just want it their way. Now, there's a shocker, never saw that one coming. :heehee::)

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

"...Frankly, I feel that making the wife out to be some sort of a control freak because she's not giving the husband a pass on these issues is a clear case of shifting the blame. If the husband is knowingly not being honest and forthright, he needs to own the responsibility and the fallout..."

Sounds eminently reasonable on the surface, Erica, but unfortunately, life isn't always that black and white.

Yes, I fully "own" that part of the problem - and no, I'm not making any excuses here - but any discussion touching on this area needs to take into consideration the fact that the members of this forum are multi-generational, and those of us who were youngsters in the 50's and 60's when so little information regarding crossdressing was available are at a distinct disadvantage compared to those young crossdressers coming of age in today's world.

Like many others of my generation, we had no one to reach out to, had to wrestle with this issue of gender dysphoria all by ourselves, and usually believed that we were the only people on earth who had these "strange" inclinations. And growing up in a world where men were men and women were women, gender roles were strictly defined with no deviation from the norm tolerated, and where in most jurisdictions, it was open season on homosexuals and engaging in homosexual acts was still grounds for imprisonment - of course we tended to both hide and suppress this deep, dark secret of ours. Besides, like myself, most of us probably thought that this was a passing phase, and once we had a girlfriend and became sexually active, these strange urges would go away - NOT!

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If I understand what you're saying, its that, since the husband creates a significant problem within the marriage by admitting that he crossdresses, then the wife refuses to be accepting, that she then suddenly shares some part of the responsibility for there being turmoil within the relationship because she is not willing to accept and incorporate the crossdressing into the relationship. Then, because the wife is in a mode of non-acceptance, she's now earned the label of "control freak". This, to me, is still not owning the responsibility.

Regardless of what generation we come from, I think we all still bear responsibility for maintaining the relationships we commit to using whatever tools we have and can acquire if we want to be happily married. Saying older generations have it harder may technically be true in a lot of cases, but broken marriages and unhappiness do not discriminated based on age (or access to technology). That, I think, is an excuse. The responsibilities of the wife and husband to each other and to the success of the marriage are basically the same for all generations.

In "Karmatic" terms, it may not be entirely fair, but life usually isn't.

Taking one of your examples, what would you expect the outcome to be when a man who is a closet crossdresser marries a woman who exibits "fundamentalist religious beliefs" but neglects to inform her about his gender issues prior to the wedding?

From the beginning my wife has intellectually accepted that this is something that I had to do. She has always wanted me to find out what it was about and that I should do it to find my happiness. Emotionally she had a hard time letting this into her life, but she is trying. She fell into a DADT period, and just needed time where she had no new inputs to process about a feminine side to her husband of 41 years at that time. This is in no way controlling except that she needed it to be able to control her emotions for a time. Over the last few months she has asked me about things I do, and want to do. She has joked about it.

DADT situations cannot all be put into the same category. Neither person can have it all their way, and the onoy way to decide where everyone is at is through discussion.

Barbara

Obviously every case of DADT is as unique as every CDer. DADT ultimately IS compromise to the non CDer and some people do use it to make their Relationship work. It's simply a matter of perspective.

I have a delightful SO who sez (approximately): " .... you find crossdressing to be a comfortable part of WHO YOU ARE... and I LIKE who you are....and your C/D-ing is not harmful, and is - in fact - kind of a fun part of what goes on between us...... so... what's the question????"

She's terrific!!!!! I wish more/ALL of you could have partners who are so sensible about this part of you...

Erica, perhaps I didn't make myself totally clear in my last post, and for that I apologize. What I was really driving at was that "That was then; this is now".

Yes, perhaps mistakes might have been made by both parties when they initially stumbled into their DADT mode years ago, and when they approached the crossdressing dilemma the best way they could to reach a reasonable accommodation between the two of them that might have worked back then with the limited information available about it at the time.

But situations change, and people should be prepared to change with them. Time was, everybody smoked and it was a normal part of life. Now we know that smoking can kill you, and today those who still smoke are for all intents and purposes treated as though they were lepers. DDT was once the insecticide of choice; now it is banned. Any fans of Agent Orange out there anymore? See asbestos used much these days, when once it was a favored building material? My point being - new information becomes available, and sometimes we need to make a 180 degree shift in past perceptions to adjust to the new reality.

And if society now has a far different - and a far more understanding and tolerant - view of transgenderism in general and crossdressing in particular, is it so unreasonable for us to expect our DADT wives and SO's to get on board and maybe - just maybe - come to accept that it might not be the vile and degenerate practice that they once thought it was?

And for the record - if I had to do it all over again, I would definitely have told my wife about my crossdressing before we got married. That would certainly have made our lives considerably less complicated. But I would also have come armed with the best information I could as to what crossdressing was - and wasn't - so that she could at least have made an informed decision as to which way she wanted to proceed. Unfortunately, that information wasn't available at the time the way it is now...

I don't know what DADT stands for, but when my wife was alive she disapproved of my dressing even though she knew about it before we married. I hid it and never dressed openly in her presence but she caught me a few times and then I'd get a lecture about how she wanted me to be the "MAN" she married.

I must be the only chic here living in a cave. What the heck does the acronym DADT stand for? I need to know the definition before I can comment. We've been married for 42 years and for 40 of those have been going out in public,shopping, thearter, movies,restaurant etc as two women. No problem here, we get it together nicely. But the initials... please enlighten me.

Megan70

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Originally Posted by TVAmanda

When you get married or enter a relationship your partner has certain rights. One of those rights is the right to assume that how you present to the world, and your partner, is a true and accurate representation of the real you. A crossdresser who marries without telling their wife before the marriage has lied and married under false pretences and has no right to demand or expect that their wife will then accept it.

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While there may be many who are confirmed CDers when they marry, I think that most of us either were not fully aware of our CDing tendencies before marriage or firmly believed that marriage would cure out CDing tendencies. We all put on our "best faces" for our potential spouses and sometimes things get swept under the rug by both parties.

The demographics of this forum show that a large number of CDers come to terms with their CDing between ages 40 and 60. I fall into that category. If you had asked me in 2009, after 20 years of marriage, if I was a crossdresser I would have answered emphatically "no." I knew that I had an inordinate interest in feminine things that extended back to my teens, but I had never dressed beyond a single item of clothing or a quick trial application of one makeup item. I had it firmly fixed in my head that what I was doing was "experimenting" and that it was somewhat shameful to want to experiment in this way. I certainly wasn't going to share something shameful with my girlfriend or wife as I would be viewed as a pervert. The shame of it all was rather depressing and not being able to discuss it made it more so. I was not fun to be around as the feeling got stronger within me.

I have no idea of what changed, perhaps hormone levels, perhaps seeing something in the media, perhaps simply random chance, but I had the opportunity to dress more completely when my wife went to visit her relatives. Something clicked and I did something that I hadn't done before, an internet search. I found out that there were others like me and that what I was doing was neither unusual or perverted.

Now, Amanda, how could I have given full disclosure to a wife or girlfriend when I myself didn't know what my feelings meant? Every person has a laundry list of negative traits or characteristics and it is unrealistic to expect them all to be disclosed, particularly if a particular trait is not fully defined? The bottom line is that nobody knows themselves completely at the typical age of marriage and the married couple are expected to support and grow with each other.

During the course of a marriage people change. It is unrealistic to expect one's spouse to remain static. What if the husband puts on 30 pounds? Is the wife justified in kicking him to the curb because he isn't "the man she married?" What if the wife is infertile? That's certainly a life-changer, but is the husband justified in dumping her for it? As you can see, there's a good reason for the "For better or worse" clause is in the vows.

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Originally Posted by Megan70

What the heck does the acronym DADT stand for?

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Megan, it stands for Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Basically a setup where the CD can dress, but not in front of the spouse. The CD will not bring it up at all. The spouse supposedly knows it is going on, but as long as it isn't in her face, she won't make a ruckus over it.

Maybe spouses and SOs who impose DADT are simply poor communicators. Or insecure. Or ignorant. Or narrow-minded. Or...

Hello All
My feelings on the matter are,
Women are much more cautious and emotional on some delicate matters than men are. As a spouse, we must hadle them with kids gloves until they understand the feelings we expierence while dressed or whatever.

Thera

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

And for the record - if I had to do it all over again, I would definitely have told my wife about my crossdressing before we got married. That would certainly have made our lives considerably less complicated. But I would also have come armed with the best information I could as to what crossdressing was - and wasn't - so that she could at least have made an informed decision as to which way she wanted to proceed. Unfortunately, that information wasn't available at the time the way it is now...

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She might not have married you had she known. A lot of us older members did not have the knowledge to know what we are. If we look at this objectively most women have an ideal guy they want when they get married and you fit the bill at the time for her. I don't think too many women even consider a CD/TG/TS as someone they want to marry, there just aren't a lot of us around. If one is upfront while dating DADT becomes less likely. It can't be easy to deal with to find out after the fact. The "control freak" part might simply be her way of making sure you stay safe and don't get outed. If you get outed she will have a lot of unpleasant comments and questions to deal with. It will be embarrasing for her. Maybe she just can't deal with seeing her husband in a dress either. There are so many reasons that can cause DADT. Have you asked why there is DADT for you?

Now all of that said I have seen many good relationships and marriages on this board that have worked through it all for various reasons. So it is not totally hopeless for us.

Try thinking how you would react if you found out your wife was an FTM and was out dressed as a guy, that might put things into perspective. Also remember a GG that is not in a relationship with you will be more likely to accept your CDing. It does not affect their life.

I'll cut it short here as it could turn into a novel if we factor in all the variables.

Leslie, I understand the quandary you find yourself in. In a nutshell, you've come to accept yourself over the years due to all the reasons you mentioned, and you no longer wish to behave at home as if the CDing is a shameful part of who you are. You also would like your wife to educate herself sufficiently to at least acknowledge that Leslie is an integral part of who you are. The ideal would be if she could enjoy Leslie as well, like your other GG acquaintances.

It doesn't look as if this is going to happen, and I agree this is difficult for you, especially when you read stories of other CDers here who have accepting wives. Anyone in your shoes would feel frustrated.

I also gather that you have some freedom of movement, meaning that you do not need to hide any of your things, you are free to purchase what you will, and you also go out dressed frequently without having to hide this from your wife?

So now you must choose a course of action. You can either accept that your wife will not change and no matter how much you would like her to enjoy Leslie, respect the fact that she doesn't and stop faulting her. You can still enjoy yourself when you go out and also enjoy the friendships you are making.

Or, you can decide how important it is for you to have a partner who is involved. If you find your marital situation unbearable as is, then you should consider speaking to your wife candidly about the seriousness of the situation and be prepared to make some changes (separation) if she feels equally strong about not being involved. This would be the honest thing to do, for both of you.

The worst thing to do is to build up bitterness over her non-acceptance, and assign blame on either yourself or her. Eventually the pent-up resentments will grow (if they haven't already), and your marriage will become distant if not entirely disconnected.

Do you still love your wife?

Yeah, the knowledge IS out there. Plenty of it.

So what.

There is a very good reason for the expression, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Or how about "There's none so blind as those who will not see"? I see proof of both every single day at work.

Isn't it true that we ALL have some aspect of that in us and all the LOVE in the world is not going to change our mind on certain matters?

You clearly seem quite happy with the feminine side of your life at this time. Despite your wife's [seeming] disapproval in your eyes.

GREAT! That's the way Relationships are supposed to be. It would be silly to assume mates should be willing to "do anything" to make their mates happy. We are all entitled to whatever qualities or traits we have that makes us unique but we cannot expect others to necessarily embrace or accept ALL of them.

Is it safe to assume that there are still plenty of other things your wife likes about you? Or plenty of other activities that she enjoys doing with you/you with her?

I think it was either Dear Abby or Ann Landers who were forever asking the eternal question: "Are you better off with them or without them"?