Printable View
i wish you the best. However, I think this will be very hard for you and you will begin to feel frustrated and that will spill over into other things. You have been given what looks like an ultimatum and strict boundaries have been set. This does not sound like partnership.
I agree with many of the comments about getting counseling. i believe you may be feeling very frustrated in a short while.
steffi
im sorry to hear this is happening.
there have been some good advice and some crystal ball looking saying that this is not going to end well from their personal experience .
GOOD LUCK
Lorileah very well said. Nice post....
Steffi, this sucks! Having met you and with what few conversations we have had, I realize this has been an on-going battle. I wish you luck and I am confident you will do what is right for your family. Hang in there and know you have friends here that know and understand!
Genny B
I'm sorry, I had this conversation with my wife also, it was almost the same thing. It tears you apart, but only you know what you have to do. I wish you peace.
I've read all your posts and I'd like to thank you all for your support. I would like to be able to open a dialogue with each of you, either to commiserate or seek your advice, but I don't have the time right now. So, I'll just say a few things.
1. We all know that this journey is sometimes a roller coaster. We get filled with anticipation on the way up, but we're screaming on the way down. Nothing has changed recently. This is just the screaming part of the ride. The only question is whether the ride goes up again, or if I'm headed toward the end of the ride.
2. We did see a counselor, both separately and together. The last round of counseling got me from lying about where I was going when I went out (meeting the guys for a few drinks, which was technically true, but intentionally misleading) to being honest that I'm going out crossdressed to meet some CD friends.
3. I didn't get ambushed at midnight, as some have inferred. She did tell me at midnight that we needed to talk, but the actual talk didn't occur until Sunday afternoon.
4. For the past year, I haven't been dressing at home at all. I've gone out dressed a couple of times a month, but I never got girled up at home. That would be a boundary violation. I leave en male and change at a friend's, at a hotel, or in the car, and changed back similarly before returning home en male.
Here are my thoughts for the day, after I had some time to process the events.
Some people believe that whenever a door closes, another door opens. Right now, I see three doors:
Behind Door Number 1: Go “Cold Turkey”. See how important CDing is in my life. See if I can handle not CDing. It’s been a long, long time since I tried. See if I “go crazy”. See if she can handle it if I really do go crazy.
Behind Door Number 2: Go Underground. Keep doing some of the stuff I’m currently doing “invisibly”, but don't go out dressed. Underdress. Shop in public and online without taking time away from her. The risk of getting caught goes way up.
Behind Door Number 3: Just "Go" (the trial separation route). See how much is really left to be saved vs. removing the current constraints on my life. At half my current net income.
I'm going to start with No. 2, and see if I can progress to No. 1.
I'll continue to try to check in periodically.
Keep those cards and letters coming!
Long before I became involved with my now former, CDing SO, I was married to a man for 20 years, we had 2 great kids together, owned a home were active in the community even to my family seemed great on the surface. We had been together since I was 18 and he was 20. We didn't know ourselves when we married so there was no way of knowing what we could and could not tolerate in a partner. Marriage is "difficult" to say the least under the best of circumstances. I stayed with him for the last 5 years, knowing he was cheating for many reasons, most of which were based on fear and denial. There go the private music lessons, batting coach, summer vacations, having a father in the home, the stigma... He wanted much of what you want -"my needsto matter too".
Please understand that as far as the "women's movement" has come, many women over 40 are still attracted to and stuck on the traditional values we grew up with. Most (definitely not all) mothers really do put their needs aside for the sake of the children and live in denial for that purpose. CDing was never really a factor in that upbringing. Even if we are accepting, it is a leap for us in our core values to put what to many of us is a self-indulgent need above the needs of our family. In addition many women (and men) do fear being alone and not having the security of a man/father around for our children. There are 1000+ fears going on in the mind of your wife with this. "What if the neighbors/kids/family/boss/ find out?" "Is he gay?" " "What if he loses his job?" "How much money is he spending on this that could be going to other things?" "Does he want to be a woman?" The questions are endless. Women really worry about so many other things than their "needs" particularly whe there are children/grandchildren involved. I don't think it's any more selfish of them to say "No thanks - I can't live with this" than it is for the CDer to say "I can't live without this."
Steffi,
I am so sorry to hear about your difficulties. Can I suggest a door number 4; Talk to your wife about what you perceive your three options to be and work through each of them together. Talk to her on a regular basis about how you feel about your dressing or lack of being able to dress. Let her know her opinion matters. Open communication is so important in any relationship and if you are talking to her on a regular basis and do happen to slip up, I'll bet she will be more understanding.
I fear if you choose on door number 2, your SO will catch you and force you into door number 3.
>> Lorileah, I absolutely love you. Your words are always so full of wisdom...
Edited to account for Shelby's Door #4 (which I think is a good idea):Quote:
Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi
I don't understand why there isn't a Door (Number 5?), called "Figure out a reasonable amount of cross-dressing to keep me sane (two nights a month?) and then do that openly and see how she reacts."
Maybe you wouldn't choose that door, but do you at least realize that it exists? How can "trial separation" be on the table but not "openly crossdress"?
Starting off, I find your discussion of this in terms of a battle or competition to be a red flag. Marriage is a partnership. Just because one party takes on an aggressive stance does not mean that the other party needs to answer with equal or greater aggression.
I will address this one. It can get worse. It can also get much better. Mimi and I spent Saturday evening with three other CDing couples. It was eight ladies enjoying each other's company, having a lovely dinner, and sharing interesting conversations. In other situations four of those ladies are loving husbands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi
None of this was easy for the GGs. They each had an experience that might be similar to your wife's. In each case they were able to address their fears and work out something that was beneficial for all parties.
No, we are not the men our wives married. No man is. We all change with time and sometimes those changes are not the ones that we or our spouses desire. The way we respond to these changes determine whether our marriages emerge stronger or fail.
Your thread contradicts itself and is confusing. First you say you were out and didn't get in till after midnight and the wife wanted a 'talk'... then you say later it was the following Sunday. You also say she wants you to dress less, go out less etc, but then you say you don't do it at home and it's only twice a month??
I think there is more to this story than you're letting on, if you weren't dressing at home and only going out 2 nights a month, I don't see the problem, but there obviously is a problem and you're not telling us the whole story. Based on one of your replies in this post, it took a counselor to make you stop lying to your wife about where you were at night, maybe you're not telling us the whole truth, which may get you answers you don't really want.
I don't agree with limits on anything, but if you're lying about where you are or what you're doing, to your wife, no wonder she's bloody pissed off with you.
If this is a real struggle, it's time to consider that you MIGHT be a transsexual. For most cross-dressers, it's just "an expensive hobby" that you enjoy once in a while when you want to look like a guy, but you're "all guy" - even the dress doesn't help much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate Simmons
If you ARE a transsexual, these are almost impossible to self-determine. If you are a girl on the inside, and the boy is a "puppet" a character you created to survive, then you probably have never truly experienced love, intimacy, or friendship. Your "boy clown" gets a compliment or love - and you think "but if you REALLY knew me would you love me?"Quote:
Make a list with pros and cons for both and the truth will be evident.:)
When an SO says "I can't deal with your dressing" - a transsexual experiences that as "I really can't stand you, but if you'll keep wearing the monkey suit, I won't destroy your life".
Is it your cross-dressing or that she is beginning to realize that it's more than just putting on pretty clothes for a few hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi
You felt your life was threatened - this is a red flag that you may be transgender and a lot closer to the transsexual side than even you'd like to admit.Quote:
Arooogaah! Arooogaah! Battle Stations. battle Stations. This is not a drill. Repeat. This is not a drill.
You were literally locked into a life or death battle. Kill the girl, and what happens to the guy?
Does your daughter know that you are a CD? Who else in your family knows besides your wife?Quote:
We drove out a little ways from the house to have a private talk without the kid listening in. Kid? She's 31, but who's counting.
She is freaking out herself. She loves the guy in the monkey suit, but is that who you really are?Quote:
My wife came prepared with notes. Talking points, so to say.
What if you had told her you were a TRANSSEXUAL on day one, that you had seriously thought about having a sex change?Quote:
The first shot wasn't a shot over the bow, but a direct hit amidships.
She said, "I married a man. Why didn't you tell me about the crossdressing before we got married.
I'm not sure what I have would have done!" Could it get worse than this?
Clearly you didn't have enough information, resources, knowledge, or support to make that decision.
Since your daughter is 31 I'm assuming that you are at least in your 50s. You mention 1977 below.
Back in those days, a transsexual in the United States was considered psychotic, it was grounds
for being rejected by the draft board.
There was so little information on gender issues back then. Often, the ONLY available sources of information were in adult book stores. Although there were medical papers by Harry Benjamin and there were sex change operations being performed in Sweden and Denmark, the few universities who performed sex changes in the United States did so under extreme secrecy.Quote:
My answer, for what is was worth, was, "It was the last thing I thought about before I asked you to marry me.
And I thought about it quite a while. I finally determined (or maybe convinced myself) that this was a phase
that I was going through, and that it would stop once I was married."
You aren't the only one who made that mistake. There was so little information available at that time.Quote:
This is the truth. My logic was that I did this purely for arousal (you all understand this, right),
and once I was married I wouldn't need an alternate form of arousal.
Actually, a library was the WORST source of information. The few books that even listed "Gender Identity Psychosis" treated it as a form of extreme psychosis which could ONLY be treated by shock therapy and/or lobotomy. Transvestites were even mislabeled in Harry Benjamin's papers because transsexual and transgender as terms didn't exist yet. Harry referred to transsexuals in his original papers as only what are now referred to as 'type 6 transsexuals" and those were the people who were likely to try and castrate themselves or would commit suicide. Even back in the 1970s, the psychiatric profession had observed extraordinarily high suicide rates.Quote:
Wrong, wrong and wrong. But cut me some slack. It was 1977, way before the Internet,
and before you could find this in the library, without getting the assistance of a librarian.
Because you were born in the 1950s, you also grew up in a time when "Sissies", "Fairies", and "Queens" were often severely attacked on a regular basis, often under direct supervision of teachers, coaches, and those with intense religious beliefs. Often the attacks were so severe they required hospitalization. I was hospitalized 64 times between 2nd grade and 10th grade. They often kept me longer to make sure my bruises healed.Quote:
She said, "You should have told me (what you did know) anyhow.
Back in those days, any activity involving wearing women's clothes was a deadly secret. If ANYONE found out, you might find yourself bloody on the street or behind the school, or worse. The mortality rate among outed transgenders was obscenely high. Murder, suicide, high risk behaviors, all played havoc. There were also drugs to numb the pain, but sometimes drugs like Tai Stick, LSD, STP, and other psychosis inducing drugs could lead to "accidental" overdoses or jumping of a high building because the self preservation safeties were shut down.Quote:
Yeah, right. In retrospect, I didn't really know anything. I thought I was the only person in the world that did this. I told her that back then I didn't feel worthy to be married, never mind worthy to even be a person."
This is sounding scary familiar. How many years has your marriage been platonic or nearly platonic.Quote:
Then I counter attacked. I said,
Why didn't you tell me about that thing that happened when you were a kid that made you not like sex?"
She said, 'I didn't know it at the time."
Leslie you to have sex with me "3 times a year, so he won't forget what he's NOT getting".
Let me guess, you missed them because of work? Many of us overcompensate for feelings of low self esteem as a result of being transgender (cross-dressing to full-blown transsexual), and as a result, we end up doing more overtime, taking on jobs that will require long days, week-ends, and no vacations. This was an argument you couldn't win even if you wanted to - because she was attacking things you did because of your shame and guilt.Quote:
Then she attacked with all weapons at her disposal. She "reminded" me about all those times I disappointed her. All the family dinners I missed, and many others that I can't remember. I told her, "But your not remembering all the good things I did." and I gave her a list. I asked her to list some things that I did right. After a 5 second pause, I knew I was still in trouble.
Quote:
The talk lasted a lot longer, but I knew from the beginning that I was headed for defeat. I was significantly outgunned, And I was so unworthy, so unworthy, so unworthy. The only thing to do was to put myself in a position to negotiate the terms of surrender, rather than having them imposed upon me.
You do need to insist that she make the time together interesting for both of you together. She can pick the movie, she can tell you which restaurant, or you can cook dinner, you can spend time alone with your wife, but it CANNOT be 2-3 hours of her telling you how much she hates her life and you.Quote:
So, I agreed to the following terms:
1. Spend less time on the Internet (talking with you guys)
2. Spend less time in front of the other screen (the TV)
3. Spend more quality time with her, and I don't mean shopping (together) for that LBD for me
4. Spend a lot less time crossdressing
What are you doing until 9 PM? Are you working? Going to 12 step meetings? Going to bars?Quote:
She wants me home by 9 PM, but no later than 10 from my outings en femme. Since they start at 8, and it can take me well over an hour to turn back into a pumpkin and drive home, I might as well not even go. At least this still may be open to some negotiation.
You may need to push back for more reasonable terms on the outings, or you'll have to come home as Cinderella.
Quote:
So, as Shakespeare said, "Parting is such sweet sorrow."
This is RED ALERT time. This was not a slip of the keys, this is a real feeling.Quote:
I'm not gone, but I will limit my time here to mostly reading your posts and living vicariously through them.
Wish me luck. I'm not sure what the long term survival time is.
You should get you, or you and your wife into counseling.
I see a fourth door: Start a new hobby with your wife. It can be anything! Both of you take a fun class together. Ballroom dancing? Stained glass making? Joining a gym and after the workout the two of you go out to dinner? Have a look at the offerings at your local community college: arts, crafts, computing, photography, learn a new language together, take a course in philosophy or history … something!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi
Lori mentioned that people notice the things that bother them more than anything else. Most of us do this.
So the way to help take the focus off the times when you do things that she does not understand (and she likely misreads) is to start doing something radically new with her. Staying home to watch TV won't do it, this falls into the "good-but-humdrum-and-unnoticed" category. But learning how to make stained-glass art (for example) will fall into the "good-AND-noticeable" category. Start building new memories with her.
I wouldn't make the mistake of going underground. This can have dire consequences. Best to be honest and tell your wife that you do want to work with her on the timing, but being out for one hour does not an evening make. Who goes to a party or to dinner and a movie, and just stays an hour? Maybe a solution would be to go out fewer times in a month, but make a reasonable evening of it when you do. You could negotiate the timing based on the amount of time you will be there, plus add the travel time. So if the event is an hour away, it would not be unreasonable to be gone for five hours.
Also, do any other wives go out with you and your friends? If your wife were invited, this might displace a lot of mystery. And don't forget to tell your wife that her feelings matter and your marriage is your priority just as much as it is hers.
But … don't make promises that you won't be able to keep, because you do risk eventually breaking those promises and when this happens, any good memory blocks that you will have built will be totally eclipsed by the broken promises.
Last thing … do you usually go out on Fridays or Saturdays? This is prime-time. It's lonelier for your wife having to stay home alone on a weekend night than it is during a week night. So are your friends flexible, and could you go out to dinner with them on a Wednesday night instead?
SO1Adam12,
Many of the questions you pose don't need to go unanswered, the wife can unburden herself of much of that if they choose to talk !
The important thing to remember is the wife may not have asked for the CDing problem but neither did the CDer ! It's so hard for a man to come to terms with it , and he's not oblivious to the worries the wife has , otherwise they wouldn't have the shame and guilt hanging round their necks !
Nothing I'm not letting on, but I guess my writing skills need improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
I was out Saturday night Nov 15, and got home after midnight, which was technically Nov 16. Just checked in on my wife. She was still awake, and told me we needed to talk the next day, which meant Sunday, Nov 16. We talked bout 4 PM on Sunday Nov 16, after finishing our Sunday errands.
I have stopped dressing at home, except for trying on new purchases to make sure that they fit. There were few blocks of time that I could dress at home. The only realistic one was Sunday morning when she went to church. Our counselor suggested that my wife was trying to compromise on my crossdressing and that I should recognize her struggle and do something that she wanted. I decided to go to church with her regularly. This was given without precondition, and without expecting anything in return. This was my last block of crossdressing time (at home). I have been going to church with her for about a year now.
I was only only out 2 nights a month. But I was shopping on line and in person regularly, and on this forum almost daily. I was underdressing (in panties only) most of the summer, which she didn't/doesn't know about AFAIK. I also got a few pedis (with color, as they say), and went barefooted to Yoga a few times a week all summer. However, I wore socks at home 24/7, and she doesn't know about my pedis AFAIK.
It didn't take a counselor for me to tell, but for her to listen to what I had to say. My primary goal in seeing the counselor was to put me in a position not to have to lie about where I was going. I wanted to get her to a level of acceptance where she wouldn't throw a fit when i told hr I was going out. I wanted to improve the DADT relationship so I could be honest when I went out CDing. I have told the truth about going out CDing for about a year. She doesn't want to know where I am going, or who I am with, just when an she can expect me back. Several of those times I told her I would stay overnight at a hotel and return in the morning, mostly because I didn't have a place to change at the venue.
BTW, one of the ground rules is that I don't leave the neighborhood or return dressed. I interpreted that to mean that I couldn't get dressed at home and cover up my dressing under a coat or boy's clothes, in the event I got in an accident in the 1/2 mile out o my neighborhood.
Long term survival? I suspect not great!
Steffi - quite clearly this is something your wife would rather have stop completely, but given what we all understand about the need to have this outlet (and not just the whim or desire) I can't see how two nights a month are unreasonable, given also the many safeguards and conditions you have been prepared to accept.
I think sometimes we all try too hard to place our own preconceived ideas of success or failure on others circumstances... Steffi, this place isn't going to give you the answer, though it might help give you some pointers or some ideas and opinions of things that have worked for others but may be just pointless for you. I do believe trying to talk to her more and renegotiate your position is worthwhile and a right and decent thing to do... but I also know from bitter experience that negotiation doesn't always work in a relationship - I can't speak for yours (although what you tell us does give some indicators however biased you may be) but I know in mine sometimes I have simply been forced to ignore what my wife wanted me to do, and do what I wanted to do - and that was with issues not nearly as deep-rooted as ours. Some folk may never have experienced the need for that approach in their wondrous relationships, but I'm absolutely certain I'm not alone - just tarnished with one of those less-than-perfect marriages that works on all sorts of levels, but just occasionally we're like two pit bulls with one tennis shoe.. doesn't stop me loving my wife very deeply, but this comes down to individual personalities at the end of it all.
We can't give you a blueprint solution for this - you have to try to find that and choose which door you want; which Faustian compromise or stand you are prepared to make... But what we can give you is 100% support - knowing what you're feeling about the need and desperate outlet that you so badly want but that you are being negotiated into giving up because... why? I can't see a really good reason anywhere... I suspect it's really a control thing, but perhaps in talking to her you can get to understanding what the real underlying issue is... :hugs:
You deserve our unconditional support - because you're here and you're trying... You've still got mine! :D
Katey x
We know we can't help our life style and the limitations are almost a punishment !
I think the issue of going to church, I would have said I won't dress but will use the time to do house repairs and tidy the garden, I know my wife would be happy if I offered that ! We all have jobs that need ticking off the list and you feel better for doing them !
Reine had a great idea, share an activity other than TV watching !
I was hoping to share something other than Cding with my wife, I love my painting but my wife announced she didn't want me to teach her to paint, I would have loved to have done that, it's so rewarding ! I felt I had another door slammed in my face !
Uh huh...why do I see Ballroom dancing as "Hey look at her shoes...I wish I could wear those" and "Wow I like how her dress twirls...maybe I can wear that" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Actually Reine it is a great suggestion. Maybe they could both learn to lead AND follow so that they could switch sometimes. The only caveat I would add to the list is make sure you BOTH like the class. Again taking a class just to appease your spouse only ends up in frustration and becomes ammo for the next discussion ("yeah I took that Japanese pottery and limbo class with you...I hate Japanese pottery, you know that?" I like the dinner idea. A lot of things you can't talk about at home can be discussed, quietly, at a nice dinner...and no this doesn't mean a buffet. It can also be a good time to remember why you got together in the first place. Her eyes in candle light? If at all possible sit TOGETHER not opposite and hold hands. That way you make sure they can't grab the knife when you aren't looking (Sorry, that slipped out).
It doesn't take a whole bunch to be romantic...and you don't have to do the rote flowers and jewelry stuff either. Be creative though...a love note on the steering wheel of the car in the morning. Be silly and do something neither one of you ever considered...museum? New food? But put some thought in it. If you always go to Denny's...DON'T. Go somewhere nice, stretch the budget a little...being pampered by waitstaff never hurts.
Well at least your still breathing. So glad your still here.:hugs:
Angie
I think you need to know yourself better and what you want from your life. I sense a lot of compromises that don't really work and therefore fail.
You need to know who you are and what it is you want from your life. Will the counsellor help with this? Right now I don't get the sense that the negotiations are based on hard knowledge on your side. Don't take this as a criticism as I went through a similar phase.
JoannaQuote:
Originally Posted by JoannaCD
Yes. I've told my wife she can come anytime she wants to. She's never even seen me wearing anything feminine, nevermind fully dressed. She says she has a visual memory and if she saw me, she would never be able to get it out of her head.
I've also told her that I could introduce her to many SOs of CDs.
If she was more accepting, she could easily be the best wife ever. In addition to the usual things, she got her AA in Fashion Design, she worked for about 15 years in women's retail clothing, and she sold cosmetics for about 30 years.
I think it's more accurately "woman overboard."Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikkilovesdresses
TeresaQuote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
I am actually helping others, paying it forward, so to speak. Recently, I helped two girls from this forum get out for the first time in our little DC meetup group. I advised another girl how she could get to go shopping for the first time. And I set up another girl with someone in the DC area who does makeup lessons and transformations. I also helped another girl from this forum decide that she was ready to go full time. Names withheld to protect the beautiful.
The only thingthat gets me here is she seems to be pulling your strings.
Something has happened and your wife now ha the power of control over you.
Somehow you have to control this otherwise I see your relationship breaking up further down the line.
Steffi, I scrolled through this thread and saw that many of the disagreements between you and your wife are common to my relationship, and, frankly between many spouses. I have to chuckle sometimes when I read comments attributable to wives. Your wife seems to have raised some issues common to most marriages.
1. Spend less time on the Internet: This is a common complaint in any marriage. I am assuming your Internet time is cross dressing related. In my family my grandchild told me she wishes there was NO computer in her house because daddy spends too much time playing video games and reading sports and whatever he wants. So, my son ignores his family.
In my household, my wife is an Internet hog. After work (4:15 PM) she arrives home, makes a cup of hot tea and logs onto her email, checks some sites she follows, and basically waits for me to prepare dinner. I enjoy cooking so I do not mind the cooking and cleaning up since she is still working and I am a house husband. I would prefer doing the cooking in a nice dress, hosiery and heels, but, that's not going to happen. After dinner? It's back to the computer and doing the same and playing solitaire. Literally, she will be on the computer until bedtime. She will join me in watching television if there is a show we both enjoy.
2. Spend less time in front of the television: If you and your wife are enjoying the same show and cuddling together, I think that is quality time spent together. If you're watching ESPN in one room and she in another. Well, go for a walk or a cup of coffee. My kids (adults) ask me what I want for birthday, Christmas, Father's Day, etc. I always say take me out for coffee or a ball game at the local AAA park.
3. Spend time together outside the house: Yes, go to the mall, the park, anywhere together to enjoy each others company. Don't look for clothing. Go to Barnes and Nobles. Go to the movies. Dig in the garden.
4. Spend less time cross dressing: You don't enjoy yourself at home. However, you go out a lot with your cross dressing friends. She does not appreciate that aspect of you. What would your wife say if you went out with your fishing or bowling buddies, drinking, belching and farting.
The point I am making is these issues are common to ALL long term marriages. You're 61! Married 37 years. It sounds like you and your wife are living side by side and not together. If cross dressing were a real sore point, she would have dumped you a long time ago. All her grievances are valid. You can substitute any activity you want, and, her grievances would still be the same and valid.
Sure, you invite her to cross dressing activities. You know she does not appreciate cross dressing. My wife told me decades ago "You can go fishing, but, don't expect me to clean it." Cross dressing is not really the issue here.
You don't need to withhold my name Steffi! You have been a great help here and out in the real world to me! And I know of others that you have helped! I so hope you are able to work your way through this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi
Genny B