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Has anyone stopped and thought about the fact that the wives or girlfriends are just heterosexual? We tall about being who we are and the total freedom to do so and be so. We shouldn't be "forced" into living in some way we are not..... well, then I guess we shouldn't ask or expect our partners into a sexual orientation they are not. Two choices here, go our own way or take the sometimes hard compromises. No one said life was ever easy.
Sara, using the phrase "this thing of ours" i.e., la cosa nostra, made it seem like we are in the mafia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara Jessica
My relationship is open with regards to my crossdressing, she has seen my dressed, gone out with me. However she has also threatened me about it. She also has told me that my dressing makes her feel that she is not enough for me. I temper the amount of dressing I do to let her know she has a man.
"This thing of ours" is a phrase coined by (or simply used frequently by) a friend of mine and to me, it is a way to convey the wide variety of both behaviors and states of being underneath a TG umbrella. There is certainly nothing nefarious intended in phrasing it in this way.
Case in point as to why I try to paint with such a broad brush, you go on to talk about your relationship with regards to your crossdressing which doesn't really apply to what my own wife copes with in our relationship. You are not being exclusionary in simply being specific and descriptive. Alternatively, I was making my point to illustrate that all of our respective SO's have to deal with the seemingly limitless ways as to how TG is presented in their own lives.
I told my wife up front that i sometimes enjoyed wearing women's clothes. I expected her to run and hide, she didn't. She also said she did not wish to participate. now 22 years later, she gives me her schedule a week in advance, and we have a rule that applies to both of us, we call before coming home, as much for both letting the other know, and what route we will use, in case something happens.
There have been a couple of times when she surprised me by pulling up unannounced, and i have made the 'mad dash' to the bedroom to change, it is usually accompanied by a ' oh sorry, i forgot to call'. The paranoia on my part is a reflection of the horrific response i got from wife one and the disastrous ruination of that marriage. (in hind site a great thing as i now have my current wife).
While this all seems great, she has never seen me dressed although she has discovered where some of my underthings were kept. as far as i know, she has never looked there again. She has made a couple of attempts to open the door to discussion, but i was not ready. but thanks to these pages and all of you, that may change soon.
so for me dadt is just that. I can go a head and dress, and i won't tell you about it, and i know you dress, i'll give you time, but i won't ask about it. Now that the kids are gone and we are both retired, the tenseness of the situation has dropped considerably and i have plenty of time to enjoy Marsha. The door has opened up a bit to full disclosure and sharing, (when i am ready to take that step). My fear is still very strong and it will start with a lot of discussion.
No one should be forced into anythingQuote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
But you assume it is sexual when most here will tell you it isn't. When the clothes come off they are just men
Leslie,
Well written, I can't add to it .
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Originally Posted by Rogina B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogina B
interesting interpretations, is finding common ground by both parties not a good thing, why is it a put down if they do not understand it, many wives do not understand a husbands interest or obsession in (insert your beef here) but love them enough to let them indulge in it.
is our spouses inability to understand your desire to (insert theyre beef here) and you agreeing to "terms" a perversion....we all have free will, if we go to far they have free will, now add in all the uncomfortable repercussions of ones decision to plod on and keep doing (insert the beef here) when asked not to or at least not abide by some agreed upon provisions.
we all have "terms" in many of the relationships we have in general.....family, friends, spouses, associates, teammates, colleges, and i would guess how we relate and act between them are as various as the chances of winning the lottery....if someone wants to have a spouse who hides theyre head in the sand thats theyre prerogative, did not work for me, if you interpret it as sneaking, cheating, hiding and lying but it works for someone else does that make it sneaking, cheating, hiding, lying ??? if someone agreed to a plan of action to enjoy theyre fondness of (insert beef here) and it keeps everyone involved in a state of bliss who are we to question it or have them defend it....
Mikell, that was so beautifully put!:thumbsup:
Whatever it takes for 2 people to stay together? I say, "Hurray for them!"
I failed badly in my marriage!:thumbsdn:
But, I WOULD like those that sneak, hide, and lie to call it that. Because even if they won't tell the truth to their SO's, they should be able to themselves, don't u think?:straightface:
Sherry there's a school of thought that says it's tyranny which creates liars. The liars themselves are only a result of managing life under a tyrannical system as best one can.
In the heyday USSR, or the Third Reich, imagine having to sneak around to hear a popular song or read forbidden literature. The only entity that would call them sneaks and liars is the very entity which is oppressing them. Everyone on the outside would just see someone surviving, scraping up a life out of a very bad situation.
Leslie, it has been a long time since we have exchanged posts but I had to comment how well you put into words the DADT subject. You covered the bases better than anything I've read so far. Sure, many will be upset with that view for varied reasons that eventually become hollow - so be it.
Best
Julie
Very interesting thread and i don't think it means the same thing to many couples. I feel that in many cases it actually means permissible lying. By this I mean what the wife thinks the husband is/does and what is he/she actually is or does is not the same.
Ginapoodle - sort of the same situation here. My clothes and such are all hidden away and I dress when I can. It is worth it to me to get up a 1/2 hour earlier during the week, dress, eat breakfast, undress, and then head to work. I am out the door for work before anyone else in the house has to get up. When I go on business trips, dresses and heels come with me and I can dress in the hotel. Business trips are also when I go shopping for my dresses and heels. She wants nothing to do with my crossdressing. She found out 5 years into our marriage, put up with it at first and then it was too much. We did counseling and such, but she wants nothing to do with it. So, back into the closet I went. Coming up on being married for 25 years. I envy those crossdressers whose wives are supportive. In retrospect, I wish I had found a woman that was supportive before I got married. But I can not change the past. Only deal with the present...
Wen ,
Sorry but but I hope that comment is from your personal experience ?
Why do so many of us tear ourselves apart, we have to get over thoughts like being selfish, greedy, self centered and narcissistic , most therapists have to work hard to get that out of our heads because they are irrelevant and destructive thoughts, otherwise most of us wouldn't function as human beings .
There is very little we can do with what is locked in our brains, we have to learn to live with our needs and beating ourselves up and allowing others to use those description is no help at all.
Personally I have been a good husband and father, trying so hard to provide for them all and give them the best, there comes a point when we have to accept there is a side of us that has needs , it's hard enough coming to terms with them without damming ourselves with so many destructive labels.
I do agree with you on the lies and deceit . My father was an overpowering bully , we came to blows once which wasn't good , him being about 280 lbs and me about 150 lbs, but of the many things he called me at the time deceit was one of them , my answer at the time was , " You made me like that !"
I still don't like that feeling now over my dressing but again the DADT has made me like that, it's not a good for someone to come back to that through another persons actions ! I choose not to beat myself up over it and call it a double life , my wife said that to me without me prompting her.
Rogina is basically right, we have rights as well, finding how to exercise them is the real problem .
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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
thanks for the props sherry, i just try to keep it real.
how did you fail in your matrimonial arrangement, two parties were involved, seems a shared endeavor and who could predict any outcome ?
i think hide, sneak, and lie would be more of a trait of someone who did not disclose this proclivity to a partner which i believe is something that is up to each individuals own need....but once you reveal yourself to a daughter in your case or a spouse the descriptors of lie, sneak or hide are irrelevant, you told them, its now how do they deal with your truth.... accept, understand, learn who we are, dont assume we are a deviant or pervert.....just a person with a different interest, a dad a husband a provider and yes....still a lover, not someone to be despised....my opinion, i could be wrong.
So what does that acronym mean to me?
I genetically can't lie and have fully come out to my wife ( not recommended ) No compromises coming!
So, I can sleep well at night knowing that I have been honest. I also have nice timber flooring to sleep on!
We all are in different situations and some of us need to bend the rules a bit, So bend them!
Going now,
Emotional Stacy
I was in the military when the label of DADT first was used by the US military. I was so deep into my private closet I wasn't worried. It was originally aimed at sexual habits back then. Now it is used with many things that are on the edge of illegal/social areas. Things that if what you are doing could cost your job.
These ideas are anything but irrelevant. A therapy that doesn't include accepting the greedy, selfish, narcissistic dark side of CDing is simply bad medicine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
Even worse, is the tendency in modern therapy for the therapist to cheat the client completely, and instead of addressing the individual and helping them face difficult internals, just simply tossing them into an easy prefab category and saying "people in your category do this because of 'need' and that's the fact." Sweeping things under the rug won't do at all. Nor will censoring certain thoughts as 'bad.'
I think we all could do with a lot more beating ourselves up in that case, because there is plenty we can do with what is locked in our heads if we're not ruled by fear of words, and it's more helpful to take ownership of these things ourselves than to be at the mercy of 'others,' for as we see here, this conceit points to the ludicrous assumption that you are somehow going to control what 'others' use as a description of you.Quote:
There is very little we can do with what is locked in our brains, we have to learn to live with our needs and beating ourselves up and allowing others to use those description is no help at all.
If you want to be really horrified, just think about what others are NOT saying to you - what they're thinking, and what they're always acting upon - but what they're never, ever saying to you. Can you disallow that? No, but you can take ownership of a label that bothers you and then you are empowered, not destroyed.
I AM a greedy, selfish narcissist. What of it? I pay my taxes. Like you, I also work very hard to provide for my family, and am never unavailable to them for anything they want or need, emotionally, physically, technically, or financially if I can provide it. Like everyone, I will die when the time comes. So... ?
I'm sure you have been a good provider, but you are using the past tense already, as if you are preparing for the plunge. Why not say: "I AM a good husband, proivider and father." And continue to be one - but one who also provides for your own wellbeing?Quote:
Personally I have been a good husband and father, trying so hard to provide for them all and give them the best, there comes a point when we have to accept there is a side of us that has needs , it's hard enough coming to terms with them without damming ourselves with so many destructive labels.
I agree that we can accept that we have needs, but I think that it's the much more difficult and painful challenge to accept that we have wants. Our egoes do revolt at the idea as destructive, but most people are not genuinely harmed by having some of that ego pruned a bit. I think it is a more beneficial way to view things in the long run. Framing as a 'need' seems to absolve us and protect our ego, but it also injects helplessness, both in ourselves and in our partners, and it can set off an unconscious karmatic process that can ultimately self-fulfill. I've seen so many people in this community take this tack over the years and it always seems to lead to being nailed on a cross.
A spouse who sees your dressing or gender picture as selfish desire may not like it or be attracted to it, but they can still respect it, save face, and remain herself, the relationship becomes more faceted, more sinewy, but is still a relationship between two equals.
One who is faced with a 'special needs' partner who is now above criticism, or sheltering behind the shield of a 'condition' is going to feel on a nightmare ride to a destination she has no control over and thusly is going to panic and seek escape, breaking the relationship in a tragic way that will be seen as a loss to an illness.
Wen,
I'm still not with this argument, you can only stand so much self punishment trying to appease others, before you're driven to the point of nearly ending your life , it's a road I intend never to take again.
As for what others think , whatever they do say or think isn't going to change what's locked inside our brains, besides the assumption is the people saying these things live perfect lives, without faults and weaknesses .
Yes I do use the past tense because of my age , it's why I say all those labels you used are mentally destructive , I don't know how long this window will be open to me, I'm still prepared to serve the male part of me, but I've made it clear part of that has now gone . Some of it is solely down to age and some to living the part I have suppressed for nearly fifty years . I really don't need to beat myself up over those labels, I've done it far too long, my gender counsellor was deeply concerned over the level of suppression I had lived with there was no suggestion of sweeping things under the carpet. To care about what other people think is almost irrelevant , and I have told my family this , It's the only way I will continue to function as human being.
None of us are beyond criticism but there are two sorts , destructive and constructive , there is far too much of the former and not enough of the latter, I've no intention of sheltering behind the shield of CDing , in fact I'm trying to do the opposite and be totally open and honest , I don't want it damage my relationships, I'm afraid others may end up doing that by throwing those labels in the mix.
Well said, Teresa!
"I Am CD, Hear Me Roar!" (with apologies to singer Helen Reddy) ;)
Well said Mikell.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikell
My take (read 'situation') on DADT is that it is constantly evolving sometimes in a positive fashion and sometimes regressing. My wife has moved from threatening suicide almost 5 years ago when I revealed that my need/desire to crossdress had returned, to now agreeing to me regularly dressing at home when she is present before going out. The absolute no-no for her is seeing me in any stage of dress. Sure that limits the integration of my femme and male sides but that's a small price to pay for a happy and loving marriage.
It has taken considerable patience and respect to get to this stage.
I think that many on this forum could look back dispassionately at the time since their SOs became aware of the crossdressing and agree that their situation had improved.
I've read all of the posts and there is certainly a lot of spot on observances. I'm about three years into DADT and here's what it's become. I don't have to hide anything anymore so my female wardrobe has grown tenfold. My wife still strongly feels that I'm just a deplorable pervert because of my crossdressing although she was open for anything when we met. It's referred to as my "prancing around" time. And it's been mentioned that we're now more like brother and sister. The relationship is loving and thoughtful now but, it's different. Interesting, after my first marriage and in between relationship, I was determined to find someone accepting or just remain single. And here I am married to someone who is unaccepting.
So, I'm holding on to hope that our DADT might just be a resting plateau to let acceptance catch up. She might soften up on it or, she might not. It is what it is.
Leslie;
"...it all boils down to one thing: by setting up these "rules", our wives or SO's force us into a position of feeling dirty and ashamed (read: "pervy") for being who we are and what we are driven to do. Moreover, they then oblige us to sneak around behind their backs to be able to clandestinely express this part of ourselves as though we were some sort of criminals...all for the sake of alleged "marital harmony", and just to keep the lady of the house in a state of delusional (but "blissful") ignorance. That, of course, is the biggest joke (supreme irony?) of all about this whole thing. What harmony, and really, who are we kidding here?"
How can this be seen as forcing anyone to do anything ? most people in DADT relationships started out with years of hiding and lying their dressing from their spouses. it often is a surprise and shock for the spouse. Most times a spouse needs time to just get a grip on this new situation. As far being made to feel dirty or shameful, there is both True Guilt and False Guilt. learning to know the difference is very helpful. There are many stories on the site where couples have moved from DADT to open discussions to even acceptance.
Never loose hope.
Easily said, Kelly, if a person is one of those fortunate CDers who started off in a DADT-type relationship that ultimately morphed into a more tolerant, accepting, or even "meh! whatever..." situation once their wife or SO got their heads around this new reality, agreed let them do their own thing without being hassled over it, and stopped making it the perpetual elephant in the room. Not all of us are that fortunate, however.
DADT by definition is an uneasy, unfulfilling compromise, and not unlike the tenuous truce often referred to as the Cold War that we had to endure for decades on the international political front, and which is now poised to re-establish itself globally the way relations between countries are starting to deteriorate once again.
In any marriage or long term relationship, DADT represents an asymmetrical power imbalance where - in our particular case - the spouse or SO holds most of the cards in dictating the rules of engagement. Show me one CDer who is blissfully happy to be in a DADT situation as opposed to just settling for the crumbs that have been thrown their way.
sometimes it's helpful to hear from GG's on this subject. If you see conflict's as a power play where there are only winners or losers, then that's what you get a winner and a looser. Relationships are and have always been about compromise. Most people who have a knee jerk reaction to new information really need time to assimilate and ponder.
I understand you see it as a "power imbalance" , I'm just suggesting you try seeing it as something else.
I think many dressers can't explain their needs and that is what keeps them in the "weird" column. Fetishes are very hard to explain to the vanilla world. There are people here that get off on a bra under their male clothes or dressing as a teen,etc. I think it is this "weirdness" that causes some of the problems. I find that "fetishists" are often very selfish and only focused on themselves. This can make a spouse feel that "if discovered" she will be "seriously damaged goods" to the vanilla world around her.Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlaWestin