Yes, it's just that easy.

The thread starts with the assumption that crossdressers have to choose between their dressing and their marriage. However if you read enough life stories it is clear that it is mostly the SOs who choose between their desire not to accept their husband's crossdressing and the marriage. Usually it is the crossdresser that is trying hard to save the marriage.

So maybe the question should really be - is it really that easy for a SO to give up a marriage over her dislike for a man in a dress?

My point is there is always a flip side to every argument. At the end of the day, a marriage is two people trying to live together but ultimately each is trying to ensure their agenda, their wishes and wants takes precendence. I know a marriage is supposed to be about unselfish sacrifices and fair compromises but alas we humans are not actually built that way and we struggle to keep our selfish desires under check. Men and women are equally guilty of this. It is easy to point a finger at another but much harder to point it at ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Tree GG

"...comfortably cutting them out of the picture..."

".....unbelievable freedom to dress......"

"....long before I met you, she was there...."


Is it that easy to choose unconditional, totally at your discretion and control CDing over your life partner?

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Tree,

I really don't think that it is that easy, and I don't think many of the cdr's we have on here see it as that easy either, many of them are trying to work through cding problems within the marriage and while they wish for more acceptance within the marriage/partnership for their dressing, they try in the main to work within the acceptance levels/or not of their partners........ at the heart of these statments are selfish, couldn't care less about how our partners feel people not just as cdr's these are people and selfish ones at that , or maybe just scared lonely ones trying to put a brave face on and trying not just to fool themselves but the world.

According to the poll I did only 2.07% of cdr's who responded figured cding as a major factor in seperating........... still too high for those going through it but a lot less than I thought it would be.

:hugs: Jess

I feel compelled to respond to threads like these, although i am not the great comunicator that some on this forum are.
I agree with the realization that all people, and situations are different and one must make lifes decisions based on their space and time in life.
I was with my x for 23 years. The first five years were wonderful. The second five years were ok. The last 13 years we were just living as room mates. Is this what I wanted? No, but it happened. I made the decision to accept my live as it was, and I would still be there if SHE had not decided to look for something different. Now I want to point out that I did not even know what crossdressing was at the time. So cd,ing had nothing to do with it.
My present SO and I met on the web. I was determined that any relationship I had from this point on would be based on truth, respect, and understanding.
I don't know why cd'ing reared it's head at the same time. But it did. I discussed my interest in cd.ing with my present SO befor we even met in person because I was no longer going to live with the feelings of never being able to express yourself for fear of saying or doing something wrong.
After 6 years we more in love with each other than ever. My SO accepts me for who I am, and I accept her for who she is.
So from my point of view. It does not matter what clothes you wear, or how you comb your hair.
IT'S THE LOVE YOU GIVE AND GET EVERY DAY THAT MATTERS!!!!!!

Tree, I am my wife's man, husband, soul mate, partner, and best friend, above ALL else. I will always treat her needs and well being as first priority. She also does the same for me, bless her heart! This is why cding does fit into our lives with minimal impact. I was never faced with having to make a choice between cding or our marriage. I couldn't imagine how difficult it must be for those here who have faced that, and for those who do, I'm truly sorry.

Please dont get me wrong, it's not like cding is not an issue at times. We have worked through the rough spots and have a mutual understanding of how it impacts our relationship and have established boundaries that work well. Sure I'd like to not have any boundaries. Sure, I'd like to dress 24/7. I'd also like to be out of the house enfemme regularly. I'd also like to be a millionaire!!! :lol2: These things probably won't ever happen, and that's OK. I've reached a level of acceptance that I can deal with. It's not perfect, but Lord knows, neither am I.

I know I've said this somewhere before, but cding is NOT the most important thing in our marriage. So many other things take priority. My wonderful bride is number ONE! :happy:

A mature person will never consider anyone disposable Tree. They will do everything in their power to make things work. CDing can become an overwhealming entity to some and dominate their lives. The goal should be to first acknowledge it does indeed exist and not to deny it. The next thing should be to get to the point where the person controls it and not vice versa. I finally did this but was a "day late and a dollar short" as my wife left. I've told her I've changed but she is now reluctant to try again because I've disappointed her so many times in the past. She is the most important thing in the world to me and always will be. All I can do now is wait to see if she is willing. I appeal to all of my friends to communicate, compromise and do whatever you have to to prove to your SO she is the most important thing to you. Take it from someone who learned the hard way.:straightface:

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Originally Posted by Tree GG

"....long before I met you, she was there...."

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[SIZE="3"]
Long before I ever took interest in females and long before my first relationships my female self was there. Of course at that early age the female/male me was less defined and was really more assimilated into my young persona , I was just me. With conditioning the two halfs of my personality were seperated and then the struggles began. It has taken 40 years to put the two back together again in any meaningful way.

I have been married and the CD aspect of myself was always repressed in the relationships but it was always present and always expressed itself privately. The fear of rejection,the fear of losing my partner, the questions of what it was about, the struggles of wondering if I was normal keep it deeply hidden behind a very male mask. My children knew only the male me and my ex s. I am still destined to walk a two track road because I will never burden my kids with the knowledge of what I do. It is a relief to have found someone who can accept me as me. [/SIZE]
Jennifer:straightface:

I agree I hope I never have to choose as that would mean the end of Ms. Beth...I think there is a happy middle as Karen said. I see many gals use the moment that their wives find out as an excuse to change things to benefit their needs. They increase the frequency or depth to which they dress. Hey, I too would love to shave my legs just once in my life but I also know my wife loves to lay her head on my furry tummy and talk for hours. I recently wrote this exact thought to my wife and let her know that I will not change just because she now knows. I guess its about choices and what you want but thats easy for me to say with a wife that loves and supports me.

Beth

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Originally Posted by Country girl GG

[SIZE=3]Wow! so much dissention. It IS sad when a spouse cannot or will not accept their partner for who they are. It is also sad that people marry someone without being honest in the first place. BUT IMHO the vows you take when you get married don't say for better or worse if..., they DO however say 'till death us do part. Unless you had that line written out of your vows, then is becomes a question of " why would you say something you weren't prepared to uphold?" You are unhappy? Well I say you decide whether to be happy with your lot in life. Karren Hutton's wife is unaccepting, yet she seems to be able to create a balance for herslf that keeps her fairly content. Maybe everyone whose spouse is unaccepting should try to do the same. As my daddy always said, "you made your bed, now you lie in it." If you have lied to your spouse for years upon years as to who you really are, do you really have to wonder why there is a trust and acceptance issue? Just my :2c: . [/SIZE]

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Country Girl, You raise some very good issues. Before my wife and I got married she had found my stash of girly stuff. I was afraid that she would let my secret out of the bag so I told her they were an EX girl friends. First HUGE mistake on my part. We had been living together for a while and I should have put my faith in her and trusted her then. Although there were issues that had come up before that, So I had my doubts. After that incident and some time had passed we got married. There have been time that we both had doubts about trusting one another. But we have worked thru these times. And now we have hopefully moved on to a better time of our lives. I am totally truthful about all things with her. Even if I think it will upset her. And although sometimes she does not tell me the whole truth, I have learned to recognize this and accept what will turn out from it. I do hope that someday my wife will tell me the complete truth all the time. Even if it wil make me mad at the time. It never helps to cover things up, just to keep someone happy. My wife knows about my dressing now and accepts it. She doesn't ever want to see me dressed, But that is fine. I am not hiding anything from her, and she knows where the key to my closet is. I should have come clean with her 20 years ago.

As far as picking between my dressing, After all that we have been thru together. I would be by far my wife. If she said today that she did not want me to dress anymore. As hard as it would be for me, That is what I would do. I don't feel that will ever be an issue. For she does accept me for who I am and I accept her for who she is. And we both accept each other faults and strengths. That is what marriage is about as far as I know.

i guess i'm one of the lucky ones. married 29 yrs with a supporting wife.
when i told her the i dress she said lets see. well now she buys me make-up, clothes, jewelry, etc...
the only thing she asks is for me not to dress in front of our son.
although i think he knows i do dress.:D

As usual, Karen Hutton stole my thunder and said pretty much exactly what I wanted to say. My wife and children come before ALL else. My job has me traveling about 80% of the time and so there is plenty of time for Kim.
You asked if putting your wife above yourself sometimes this may lead to resentment? No, wife and children first. How could I resent the wife that has accepted me for 20 years> Accepted a lot more than cross dressing by the way. Accepted my insecurities, my bad habits, my snoring, my less than ideal looks, my buying a classic car that I want but don't need, etc, etc.
Now if my wife were to give me an ultimatum and demand that I stop dressing, around her or not, yes I WOULD resent her for that. Mostly because this would make it clear that she places something above my happiness.
Kim

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Originally Posted by Tree GG

...but I have just seen alot of print lately that seems to treat the unaccepting or "marginally accepting" wife as disposable. Is the choice really that easy?

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I suppose it depends on your perspective. I've seen alot of print recently where the wife/SO is treating the cross dressing spouse as inferior and a perversion. What's the point in either case? To make one feel better at the expense of the other? I have said all along that in the vast majority of marital difficulties where cross dressing is involved, the root cause is not the cross dressing, it is something else.

Love, real long lasting love, is sacrificial. Country Girl GG is on the right track. When vows are made, they are NOT conditional... I will love you as long as you conform to my ideals and standards. Too many people go into a marriage expecting to get something out of it. That's the wrong expectation. Rather the idea should be that a marriage is entered into with the attitude that the one longs to complete the other and is willing to sacrifice them self to do so.

Honestly, we all do things our spouses/SO's would rather we did not do. So what? I cross dress. My wife will sequester herself away in the den and play computer games for hours on end. Would I ever demand that she give up gaming and if she didn't, leave her? Of course not. I would no sooner do that than she would demand me to give up dressing. We've been married over 39 years; known one another for over 40 years. We've raised a family together. We lost a five year old child together. We've laughed and cried together. How silly would it be to dissolve a relationship over panties and/or pixels! Wouldn't all relationships be better off if those involved spent more time worrying about what they were bringing into the relationship rather than what they were getting out of it?

Interesting post Tree.I think we are so varied in our CDing on here that a certain post will get a response from those of like mind.A lot of post i read i disagree with it so i just go to the next one and if it interest me i'll post a reply.Like your's for example .I agree with you 100% My wife and family come first.I have 30+ year's invested and i wouldn't trade that so i could pursue a more intense form of CDing but for some they feel they have to.I.m lucky that i have a wonderfull wife .If i didn't i would probaly do thing's different but i not willing to trade her for a dress just yet.If she would just lend it to me once in a while would be nice . Justabit

I found the Methodist version of the vows on the 'net...

_________, wilt thou have this woman/man to be thy wedded wife/husband to live together after God's ordinance in the Holy Estate of matrimony? Wilt thou love her/him, in sickness and in health, and forsaking all others keep thee only unto her/him, so long as ye both shall live?

("I will")

(Repeat for each) I, __________, take thee ___________, to be my wife/husband, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better - for worse, for richer - for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherrish, till death do us part, and thereto I pledge thee my faith.

(Rings for one or both) In token ans pledge of the vow between us made, with this ring I thee wed; in the name of the Father, and the Son. and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

I choose this version because it was the first one I came across and know that are other variations of the basic vows based on the particular religion.

The point being... Both times I married, I took these vows very seriously. It meant that it was forever... For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health........
And both times mine went on....
... To love, honor, cherrish, and obey, for long as both of you shall live.

I would go through it all again with my current SO and feel it as a permanent pledge to her... Till death do us part.

Lawers can find loopholes in any contract no matter what.
I can agree with the reasoning such as one spouse abusing the other or their children as a valid reason, but otherwise......

I don't think the choice is that easy. My wife means more to me than my cding. Because of her I used to wrestle with it and stop for some time. I made a commitment for life when I married her. This is only my opinion and I can only speak for myself, but marriage is not just about self. It is about our partner and ourselves. I believe one of the most important factors to building a good marriage, to a large degree, is selflessness.

I also have read a great deal of posts where members and even moderators here have given it all up for their spouses and who consider their wives very very important.

Happily, my wife supports my cding and for that I am eternally greatful. My heart goes out to all those who are dealing with the pain and the heart ache this life style also holds.

My wife totally enjoys my dressing up and we often shop together and go out. She has helped me SO MUCH! Having said that ... I have not allowed our kids to know about it. I do not feel the need to dress en femme every day, so there's no need to "come out" to the kids. My wife and I have a fantastic, trusting and fun relationship. Works for us.

Hun, I have kept my marriage vows sacred. And the woman I said them to has had my attention for thirty seven years. But "I"... "Myself" have suffered mentally because I could not accept myself. I bury-ed myself in my Carrier and worked extra to keep my mind off my problem. I just couldn't do it any longer so I accepted myself last July. And I have done what I always wanted to do. And that is to be the part time gurl I was meant to be. She acknowledges this part of me but does not want to know. Even refuses to read the books I bought for her. Or get into a discussion about it. Nothing can replace her in my life. I love her and she loves me. We have now reaped a benefit because by being Joy. I'm happier now in my life than I ever have been. She gets more attention from me and our family and friends noticed the change. No Hun, nothing could get in the way of our love. Just I'm lucky she didn't tell me to get out.

I just pray for all my sisters and their SO's to be at least as lucky. :hugs:

My CDing started LONG after we were married (31 years after!). Without my wife's encouragement I can't say I would have gone down this path. It is with her help that Tina is exploring all that is feminine, and as with all things in my life I could not hide if from my wife if it were to come to that. Luckily, I yet again am reminded just how wonderful a decision I made all those many years ago to propose to this wonderful woman, and I'm glad every day that she agreed!

tina

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Originally Posted by Teresa Amina

I have nothing but sympathy for those who find themselves having to choose between the SO and being true to themselves. Like others here I married with the thought that it was a way to not deal with my trans nature. Doesn't work. We are what we are. If my wife had not tragically died of cancer I would be in exactly the same situation as many who now have to deal with the unresolvable conflict between the two. None of it is easy.

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Teresa,

First of all I want to express my condolences on the loss of your wife.

I am one of those who has had to face the choice of me (CDing) or my marriage. Actually, it was my wife who made the choice, she decided that since she found out I was a CD that she no longer wanted to be together. I have discussed this many times, gone to counselling, tried everything possible...in the end her mind is made up and there seems to be nothing I can do to change that. It is not easy for her or for me, but it is her choice. It feels like a death, however, she still wants to remain friends, not sure how well that will work out. Time will tell.

Huggs
Melissa

The honest truth is my marriage was in stromy waters before my ex-wife find out my cross dressing, thats the one that sunk the boat. I still hear her saying; 'If I know you did that before we got married I would have run the other way'.

My 15yr marriage ended the night my ex found out. We stay to together another six months after that, but how many times do you throw yourself at a brick wall.

Honest truth, do I enjoy the fact I have the freedom to dress when I want now? Yes.

Would I gave that freedom up to spend everyday with my kids? In an instant.

So what do I do differnent now? I'm honest and upfront about my cding. So a future GF has two choices, accept me as I'm (and I just like I am open to compromise at this point) or they run away screaming in disgust.

As a mote point here I would just like to about five years into our marriage, I found speed in our house, it was my ex's (but that's a different story for another time). Sometimes secerts are kepted by both parties.

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Originally Posted by sara_also

. So from my point of view. It does not matter what clothes you wear, or how you comb your hair.
IT'S THE LOVE YOU GIVE AND GET EVERY DAY THAT MATTERS!!!!!!

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No matter what my husband wears, I know it is him..... to both him and myself it is clothing, end of discussion.

It is not often verbalized, but deep down inside I know he realizes how my acceptance makes our every day to day life easier. I put no limitations on his dressing - i know it is important to him. I know that under all of the girlie clothes, most of which I have purchased or sewn myself - is the man I fell in love with years ago.

Just a word of advise for those WITH accepting, supportive wives...... let them know how much they are appreciated and loved. Being told such things will only enhance the relationship. Too many things these days go unsaid.

:2c: mellisa's loving wife GG

some couples will use any excuse to fight and argue---crossdressing, eating and drinking habits, table manners, the kids, money, etc----dealing with crossdressing, either your own or your spouse's, is generally not easy but if you have an open mind and an otherwise good relationship, then it can work. If, on the other hand, you are intolerant and selfish("its not the man I married","only perverts do that") then it probably is the deal breaker. But hey, relax, in that kind of relationship, even if you didn't crossdress, something else would be the deal breaker.

i have to admit it does scare me alittle, but my SO is still the same person, no matter c/d or not :happy:
to quote a saying : "the clothes maketh the man" !! as long as he still the person i met two years ago, thats what matters to me . yes sometimes i get :mad: with it, etc (all the emotions most GG's have ), but...... little by little you get there :happy:

Thank you all for the great replies. As in any group, it would be inaccurate to generalize that everyone thinks the same and I was not assuming they did. I was also not insinuating that CD's initiated all CD related divorces. I was just wondering how many CDers would/could end their marriage if CDing was the issue and was it really as easy to make their femme selves more important than their families as these comments I quoted implied.

As I read the posts, the vast majority say resoundingly - NO. :hugs: With a moderately healthy loving relationship, CDing can find it's way in somehow with or without spousal support. Any partnership requires a certain amount of self-sacrifice and compromise - IMO a healthy relationship consists of partners that are willing to give those concessions without resentment. They give just to make their partner happy. And I really am encouraged by how empathetic some of the responses were to their wives feelings as they journey into transgenderism. There are really some great husbands here.

To those that appeared to be moderately offended, I first apologize as no offense or accusations were intended and then I say in the most light hearted manner possible, "Your defensiveness amuses me." :heehee: Seems like GG's aren't the only ones to get their hackles up when they perceive a group attack. :itsok:

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Originally Posted by mellisa's wife GG

No matter what my husband wears, I know it is him..... to both him and myself it is clothing, end of discussion.

It is not often verbalized, but deep down inside I know he realizes how my acceptance makes our every day to day life easier. I put no limitations on his dressing - i know it is important to him. I know that under all of the girlie clothes, most of which I have purchased or sewn myself - is the man I fell in love with years ago.

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That is the crutch of the matter, can the SO look beyond the clothes and understand that the same man she knew before is still there, it is her perception of her partner that has changed.

I honestly feel that if an SO genuinely loves her partner then she would expend maximum effort trying to educate herself and understand the issue and tackle any feelings of intolerance inside her. When an SO makes little to no effort then I feel this in indicative of the value she places on the relationship.

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Originally Posted by Holly

When vows are made, they are NOT conditional... I will love you as long as you conform to my ideals and standards.

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Straight to the heart of the issue!

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Originally Posted by Tree GG

I was just wondering how many CDers would/could end their marriage if CDing was the issue and was it really as easy to make their femme selves more important than their families as these comments I quoted implied.

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I don't think any CD believes their feminine self to be more important than their family, rather what they seek is due recognition of their feminine side and that it receives appropriate dignity and respect as an integral part of themselves.

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Originally Posted by Tree GG

These are quotes from a CD.com post, an unassociated journal I read from a CD about his journey out of the closet/divorce & the third from another CD's writings. I think none indicate any remorse or regret or even concern for the wife or her feelings. IMO, they show a tendency to treat "the woman within" as the ultimate goddess and the real, breathing wife as an appendage to be removed as if it offends "her". At the very least, the wife appears to be just an incidental casualty.

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Pretty bold words. Perhaps GG's could learn to relax a bit. Something tells me most GG's wouldn't take too kindly to their husbands telling them how to dress. Clothing choices does not have to end a marrage. If a marriage fails because of someones clothing choices, it really leaves no question as to where the blame falls. I'd have to say the real casualty is the man who stands to lose everything just for being expressive, not the oppressor.