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Interesting topic, but also highly pertinent I believe. I do not consciously make disparaging remarks regarding gay/not gay. I consider myself bisexual and enjoy both men and women.
Perhaps, for some (used to be the case for me) they still feel some shame over CDing. Therefore, this may result in a small % thinking that making rude comments over gay people, somehow proves they are still a masculine individual. Well I maybe incorrect, but that is my experience.
I'm sorry, Sherry, like many posters here, you have missed the point of the OP by approximately 180 degrees.Quote:
Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
The question - which is very valid - is "In the context of these forums why do some feel the need to continually interject that they are not gay?". The original poster qualified the question by citing a number of examples where the interjection might be valid if true, but why here?
The question was not "Do you mind if I think of you as Gay?". Perhaps you could clarify why in your opinion failing to make the statement in every post in these forums would automatically make people who are not reading these forums assume anything about the poster's sexual preference?
I really don't know where you get that idea, the normal advice I see on these forums to cross-dressers who are dating is "tell the other person as soon as you think it might be leading somewhere - better to find out whether they can live with that before it gets so deep that one of you would get hurt by rejection"Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryZips
Most excellent sense of humor yet! As with most humor, there is a huge kernel of truth, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by DebsUK
I agree, Thanks for posting!Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda22
I was making a difference between being open to start with and telling them when the relationship gets serious. There is always a temptation for a cd to wait until there is emotional investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
You didn't understand what I said. There are plenty of women who like male relationships and even gay porn. That doesn't mean they wouldn't be turned off by a bisexual man interested in them right in front of them, or by finding their seemingly heterosexual man is not bi. Regardless, please recognized the obvious - that you are of a very, very small minority of women out there. In fact, I know a hell of a lot of oddities out there, and have never heard of this, so this is truly a rare thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by ela_loves_yaoi
If we shave our legs, pluck our eye brows, wear make up and high heels and love all things femme and love to be femme. If we have a girls name and love to pass and be convincing and this is a major part of our live's (hence reading this). Then there is only one very small step left........the line between this and being with a man is very slim, I would contend. It is the ultimate fulfilment of womanhood surely, and I think that as a CD many of us struggle with this particular concept. If it looks like a duck and goes quack???
To give a comfort factor we proclaim to all and sundry (mostly oursleves) on many a post - absolutely hetero, not gay, blah, blah..... me thinks many of us protest too much. Not trying to divide opinion but I bet there are many of us (myself included) who fall into this bracket. Comes with the territory I think.
XOX
Stephi
PS wouldnt try and analyse the argument too much you end up at the bottom of a vodka bottle very quickly strumming your bottom lip.
Thanks for all the posts everyone! I certainly understand the need to educate, be honest with family, answering direct questions etc. I very rarely discuss my sexuality with anyone accept people I am very close with. As it seems to be constantly evolving, so I am not sure what I am and I hate lables to begin with. I am sure many people think I am Gay as a matter of fact I know that quite a few people at work think I am Gay. And very often I think it myself. It is all just fine, people can think what they want about me, when I came out, I came out as Daphne. And frankly what people think about what I wear, do, or who I do, means less than nothing to me
A few years ago when I was just figuring all of this out I tried to join a support group. I was denied because I wouldn't declare my sexuality. "Well we are here for heterosexual crossdressers" The Tri ess website as well as hundreds of others make the same statements. The number one question on FAQ list's pertaining to crossdressing are varying but all say the same thing. I\we are not gay... I am not Gay is a prevailing statement on this form and many others.
I think the "I am not Gay" Statements have an underlying ugliness to them. I think declaring sexuality (if you feel the need to) can be done by saying I am straight. rather than, I am not Gay. It comes across sounding like " that is the one thing that I don't want people to think I am."
As far as feeling the need too decare in the first place. (other than educating wives, loved ones , etc) Couldn't you just say gender and sexuality are seperate, and leave it at that. Who hasn't heard straight men say "I have no problem with a guy being gay I just dont want to hear about it." or "we dont go around telling everyone we are straight" So if you feel the need to declare that you are straight you might try and do it without bringing Gay into it.
One last point, statements like "It is not my thing but I am fine if you are, Not there is anything wrong with that" etc,etc Are statements nobody needs to hear. I know there is nothing wrong with my sexuality thanks.
The answer to the OP's question is just one simple word: FEAR.
We have been behavior modified, socialized, polarized and brain washed into thinking that gay=bad. In fact, we're all coping with the CD=bad, too. Otherwise why would we all be anonymous here.
In a society dominated by religiosity, one can never underestimate the possible repercussions of admitting to an alternate world view even if it is as natural as can be (we can dredge up all kinds of studies about the brilliant spectrum of sexual preferences found throughout the animal kingdom).
The fact is when one swims against the prevailing current, all it takes is an embarrassed wife or child, a hung up employer or as we've seen lately, a nut with a handgun to thoroughly ruin ones world. And that's why I for one, stay away from the subject regardless of the reality that I find some persons of both genders incredibly beautiful and would have no issues loving them as intimately as possible.
OP-ED two cents worth (don't read if you are easily offended): Dump the dogmatic religions and other propaganda means of controlling the masses and all these homophobias and bigotries go away instantly.
Power to the people!
LB
I agree with the OP. It is homophobic to constantly remind people you're not gay. Compensating much? The ironic thing is that it's probably more acceptable in society to be gay than CD. Look at the number of well known gay celebrities. Tonight on the lottery show in the UK, one of the participants in the quiz was talking about his male partner in Germany (to be honest he was the least gayly dressed man I think I've ever seen, with absolutely no apparent sense of style, not that I'm generalisaing LOL), but when was the last time there was a fully dressed CD on a TV quiz show?
I think we are afraid of being thought of gay because as CD's/TS's we have our own set of problems with deal with, without adding more pressure and prejudice against us.
if this was a world that was open and accepting of LGBT people no one in that group would have anything to worry about.
I grew up with a sense of homophobia. And when my urges for crossdrssing came, that intensified --
thinking "I must be gay". It was a terrifying feeling, and the whole thing brought shame.
But as we mature, educate ourselves, discover ourselves, we see the variety of gender and sexual
orientation in the TG community.
We develope love for ourselves, and more self-acceptance and: tolerance.Tolerance for others -- this also needs to
extend to the Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual communities: they are our friends and allies...
I had no idea it was so offensive to proclaim my "not being gay". It only mention it so that others on this site who are gay don't get any ideas that I am or that I'm available. Please, no offense intended, I don't give a rats pitoooey if anyone thinks I'm gay nor do I care if anyone else is gay or bi-sexual. Jeeze, I think it's tougher for outsiders to accept that I like to wear women's clothing than it is for them to accept homosexuality!
I'll change my profile so I no longer offend our gay friends.
Again, sorry.
Ginger
...unless of course that woman is gay. Or are you saying that lesbians aren't proper women? Its that sort comment that alienates the lesbian community from the cd community. I'm not saying every lesbian's going to be offended at all but its the kind of comment that would be picked up on.Quote:
Originally Posted by stephi
Well you weren't quite clear. Slash and yaoi are things popular with a younger and newer generation of fans (often teens and 20-somethings), though there are certainly older fans as well. A simple Google or Wikipedia search will offer numerous sources for information on these subjects. You likely haven't heard of them because you're not into fanfiction or anime. If it's such a niche genre, I'm not sure why places like Borders and Barnes & Noble sell so many comic books about it. It's certainly not as rare as you think.
When I made some of my first shopping excursions I made it a point to procaim my heterosexauality. As I have aged (and maybe progressed) I no longer make it a point to state that I am straight. I have come out to a few people and only one or two have asked my sexual orientation.
So many of us continue to be in a state of denial and are confused about the difference between sexuality and gender. As crossdressers we are perceived by many as being "strange" and many confuse our gender and our sexual preferences.
I agree with that great philosopher, Popeye, and am proud to be able to say, "I yam what I yam."
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephi
This is the sort of statement that really irritates me. "I present as a woman, therefore I must want to have sex with a man". In this day and age women don't need to be after a shag if they want to dress in sexy clothes, and this should also be the case for CDs. I despair that a lot of men have such a low opinion of women that this is what they see as the objective as presenting as one
There have been a lot of sweeping generalisations on this thread, but this is up there wth the worst of them
... beware lest it's a drake :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by stephi
I think I may have stated in my intro that I am straight and I have mentioned my wife a few times. I don't use the phrase "I am not gay"... it never even occurred to me to state what I am NOT (except to my wife, as other have said).
But being a lawyer, I try to view things from all sides and I think I might be able to give a viewpoint that has not been expressed so far.
CDing is not an easy thing to come to terms with. Moreover, there is a wide spectrum of thoughts, feelings, and beliefs on this topic. A person may realize that they are a CDer, but do not yet understand all of their feelings on the matter fully (this is the last community that should be trying to force people to identify as one specific thing or another). Yes, perhaps they are only telling themselves that they are not gay, but if that is how they cope with fitting all of the feelings (often conflicting feelings) inside their head, then who are we to begrudge them that? I'm sure we've all had our own little mechanism we've used to come to terms with our thoughts.
Perhaps, saying "I'm not gay" is the only way a particular CDer knows how to express the complex and chaotic feelings they experience. There is also the question of how self-aware a person is. If they could give their thoughts words, they might say "I'm not sure what I am, but I definitely know I am attracted sexually to women and so I know I'm definitely not gay." But that complex thought/emotion comes out simply as "I'm not gay." Is this possible?
We need to realize that we have two groups (gay and CD), and each is trying to break free from the stereotypes, ridicule, and opposition they receive from the "outside" world.
But to be quite blunt about it, I think (as many others have said) that being homosexual is accepted FAR more than CDing. At least society, in general, knows what 'gay' means... most still do not have the foggiest clue what it means to be a CDer. That being the case, I would ask for our homosexual compatriots to cut us CDers a bit of slack as we come to terms with our own natures and as the CD community tries to find its place of acceptance in society.
I'm not saying that CDers are exempt from being corrected on their use of terminology, but I think it a bit counterproductive (and maybe even hypocritical) to deny another the freedom to learn how to express their own feelings. The CD community is still in its relative infancy, still trying to navigate the minefield of gender issues.
At the very least, we don't need to label something as "homophobic" in order to discourage it. That certainly won't win any friends.
There are number of reason a person might feel a need to use that phrase. Homophobia is only one of the possibilities, and actually in the context of this site, I think it is probably a minor possibility. Every other possibility that I can think of should cause us to respond with gentleness and understanding, not labelling and chastisement.
Simply addressing someone by saying: "One of the things that I've found helpful in dealing with and being comfortable with my CDing is to avoid defining myself by what I am 'not' and instead simply defining what I 'am'. We are surrounded by the negative (especially CDers) and if we define ourselves by the negative, it will trap us in the vicious cycle of negativity. For instance, instead of saying 'I'm not gay', you could opt for the far more positive phrase 'I'm straight'. Just that small little change in my terminology has helped me feel more comfortable with who I 'am" instead of being fearful of what I am 'not'."
And to all of those who say "I'm not gay", I really meant what I just wrote.
Here's hoping for all of us to have more inner strength and courage.
Krista, thank you for a very positive and well thought-out contribution.
However, it is my belief that the OP was upset by the interjection being used in contexts where sexuality is not even part of the issue. I know that reading references to someone's sexuality out of context irks me and I can understand how some people might feel that the constant reminder "I am not xxx" is a covert attack on those who do identify as xxx.
Just for the record: I'm not Asian, African, North American, south American or Australasian. But, what has that told you about the issue under discussion?
Interjecting "I'm not gay" into the conversation is bad timing. Let the other person ask first. All they are really saying is "help me understand you". Even then a definative answer is not required, how about saying you're not sure yourself (probably the most honest answer) then ask them how they feel about strait, gay and in between genders. It keeps the conversation going and you'll both learn something.
I agree with you that it seem to be a standard phrase for a lot of crossdressers. I've just recently come to terms with the fact that I am gay. But just like crossdressing, I don't go around advertising it. If it comes up, I don't deny either. It doesn't make sense to me that people, crossdresser or not need to afirm the fact that they are not gay. What does it really matter. Here on this forum it should be less important to state your sexual preference. Our chosen lifestyle should be accepting no matter what. There are many different aspects of crossdressing and I don't agree with all of them but it doesn't mean they are wrong or my way is right. I enjoy expressing my feminine side and enjoy trying to emulate the gender that I so much appreciate. My sexual preference has nothing to do with any of that. It seems to me that too often we (crossdressers), as a community worry more about what others think than what is really important, how we truly feel.
There are many girls on here who don't fit that scenario, so please don't be offended. But to answer your original question, I think we are affraid of being thought of as gay because it's just another stigma people can put on us without out output. It's ok with me if people think I'm gay, but if they think I'm gay because I crossdress that's another story.
Hi Jasmine, As a new girl in town I take my hat (wig!) off to the members who've been here for years and thousands of replys to threads. We never stop learning or wanting to reach out. Your reply here made me think of another contradiction in ideals that make labels so hard to attach to the cd community. If a man presents himself as a woman, wants to have relations with a man is she gay? Don't think so, the wiggly parts may be all male but it's a hetro relationship in my mind. Then again, I have gay friends with absoluterly no intrest in having a relationship with a cd. So would you be hiding the cd'ing from potential cdphobic gay partners not unlike hiding it from hetro partners aka wives? Wow, can we get more marginalised?
In my opinion, this is not quite as straightforward as it may seem and for me it would depend both on the brain gender of the "man" and whether they act on the desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathersgams
If it remains at the stage of wanting, but nothing is done to take it further, I would think that it is a fantasy and tells us nothing about the person's sexuality.
If the person in the question identifies theirself as a male cross-dresser, then I would think that having relations with another man is a homosexual act and so the cross-dresser would possibly be gay, bi or bi-curious.
If the person in the question has a female brain (i.e. she is a woman in a man's body) then I would agree that it is a heterosexual act although society might not see it as such until she had done something about aligning her body to her true gender.
:2c:
I do have a great many gay friends and a few that are TS. In my case, the "no I am not gay" is merely a direct and concise response to a direct question when someone asks me "If you like to wear women's clothes, are you gay?" Answer: "no". Then I explain the usual facts about CDers etc. I always EXPLAIN rather than deny with any hint of homophobia.
I prefer women.
I care less if someone thinks I prefer men.
I am not wanting a relationship.
When someone finds out I am TS of course they always say, OK so you want to be a woman yet you like women, are you lesbian? Wait I don't get it..."
Here is my most honest preference - I prefer to not be in a relationship cause I don't need to put up with someone's crap just because I supposedly "love" them or they have fantasies about a relationship or family. I did that for 14 years, I ain't going back to it.
Why do I get the feeling that most of your posts here are typed with one hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmuscle
Let me get this straight. I'm not gay but I'm not allowed to say so because a gay person might be offended by it? Give me a break. I'm tired of all this super-sensitivity. Tell your gay friends to read these posts and the many valid reasons we say we're not gay. And get over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaphneGrey
Read post number 44 in this thread. If you went out of your way to treat crossdressers well and help them out. You might find it a little irritating as well. My friend was speaking from personal experience. I wont be telling my friends to get over anything! You can declare your sexuality by saying you are straight. If you feel the need to at all. Or you can run around shouting I am not gay to anybody who will listen. It really makes no difference to me. But if you want a clue as to why you are not looked upon with respect in the LGBT community I would say it is a good place to start. Just my two cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
What I still don't understand after reading all the replies so far in this thread is why you (or anyone else) have to tell me that when your sexuality was never in question. Fair play if we are discussing sexual fantasies and you state something like "I am not gay so I have never fantasized about sex with a partner of the same sex", but why do we see the disclaimer repeatedly when it is out of context?Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
"Most"? I think I could hold, protect and make feel petite feminine and girly a crossdresser as well as a man could. And not all women want that sort of thing anyhow--why on earth would all CD's?Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmuscle
I'm with Daphne. The point is that a lot of CDers make a point of stressing their heterosexuality at every opportunity. It comes across as "OK, I wear a dress but at least I'm not queer!" Why the need to stress you're not gay? I don't stress that I'm not Jewish, I'm not French, I don't eat raisins, I don't agree with the fiscal policy of Greece or that I don't like Piers Morgan, and my sexual orientation is just as irrelevant to everyday conversation
I think a lot of it comes down to a person not being comfortable with themselves overall. Being a Crossdresser for someone who perhaps doesn't quite understand what it is to them is hard enough and add in the association of being gay to it, which most who don't know anything about CD's will more then likely think just adds to the confusion. Also, just the stigma of being considered gay to most straight men is something they perhaps are trying to avoid due to the backlash it could bring on them from others.
I suppose it comes down to not being comfortable in ones own skin overall. My mom used to tell me this when i was young. "The guilty party is usually the one running to the street to state their case". For the most part in most situations, she is right as I have found in life. Those who broadcast over and over, go out of their way to state things without anyone ever asking usually are the ones who are hiding something, in this case, maybe themselves.
I hate labels and hate even more those who use them to defend themselves. I mean, instead of throwing that stone at that glass house, maybe one should look at the reflection staring back at them and ask themselves why they want to throw the stone in the first place. You can't change what others think no matter how hard you try.
I have NOTHING against GAYS, Straights, Bi's, Blacks, Reds, Whites or any other groups that want to be recognized,
I am what I am, and I am Michelle, and I don't like green eggs and ham nor do I not care what or who you am, You am what you am and I what I am and thru I am
If I must be labelled and categorised, I prefer to be stuck in the correct box.
Jennifer Freeman
Again. Women often feel threatened that a man can take her place. A CD loves to feel feminine. You cannot do that for a man because he views you as a sister or gal pal. And I hate to break it to you but most women do love strong masculine men. And another thing is that women who are into CD SOMETIMES have cases where they were abused or hurt by a dominant male figure or are bisexual. The woman is using the CD to feel safe and secure while the CD is using the woman to validate his heterosexuality. It all starts of with clothes, then makeup, then eventually men. how many times have you heard a CD say they want to get dolled up in stockings, garter, corset and dress and deep red lipstick and look up into the eyes of a handsome man while they lie their head on his broad chest? CD love to feel safe, secure, protected and feminine just like a normal girl.
You have just as much right to be here as I do, and I'm quite sure you are perfectly correct about many crossdressers here. But not the majority. And even many of the bisexual crossdressers prefer women and other crossdressers to manly men such as yourself. I'm not going to say all the things I'm thinking about in reply because I don't want to get banned, but will content myself with saying I can do anything a man can do, and I can do it better, longer and harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmuscle
I really like this thread, even when it takes other direction. I am a closeted gay crossdresser and sometimes I feel an urge to come out but I always back up because of fear of the consequences also in part of because I can't really accept myself being either gay or crossdresser. I know self acceptance is the most important thing but I feel I am struggling with acceptance at the moment.
"CD love to feel safe, secure, protected and feminine just like a normal girl."
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
OMG. Are you fraggin kidding me. I (that is me) want to look into the eyes of my FEMALE lover while lying in lap as she strokes my hair and runs her fingers along my chest. I want to then have a WHOLE LOTTA other stuff happen too.
My god, what a condescending paragraph I just read from the quoter of this statement.
CDers want "strong men" BLEAH!!! Not this CDer!!!
As far as I am concerned, the image and myth of the "strong man" can go the way of the do do. It is because of "strong men" we have a majority of the crap we have now a days. Wars are just penis comparisons. The arms race was just a "who's got the biggest one" contest.
Oh and what HUMAN does not want to feel loved, and safe. This is not strictly a sex thing, though it has been made such by our messed up society.
Think about this. Is a lioness helpless? Is she unable to defend herself without the male lion (with his huge main of hair)?
Why do human females have this notion of being helpless without a male around? Makes little to no sense to me when one looks at nature.
Actually the male lions job is to protect the females and the territory... The lioness just hunts food.
I don't think it's homophobia so much as it is frustration at the strerotypes. And it cuts both ways because there are a lot of gay men who simply do not wish to be regarded as a man who is wrought with feminine affectations.
How true, nobody wants to be stereotyped as anything. Gay men or women , crossdressers, or anybody else. A great point! Perhaps I don't see being percieved as Gay a problem because other than the conversations I have had with my SO it has never really been a question that needed to be answered (for me personally)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanya C
I have been out of the closet for a few years and have worked very hard to find a real place in the world. I went and found places to be where I could meet people and make friends and have a sense of purpose. I volunteered, found a progressive church, got invlved in things made friends and so forth. I shop, go to the bank, stop and buy gas etc.. Nobody has ever asked me If I were Gay. As a matter of fact the only people who ever have are other crossdressers. Even been hit on once or twice and managed to express I wasn't available without saying "I am not Gay" I usually show my wedding ring and say thats very sweet thanks but I am off the market.
I just dont see the need to qualify your sexuallity. The truth is very few people if any really care. Afterall isn't that what straight people are always saying about Gays? "I dont care if someone is Gay! I just don't want to hear about it"? or how about "I don't go around telling everybody I am straight" They certainly do around here.
If anyone takes the time to get know me, they will find out what my sexual preference is. Other than that it really doesn't matter.
The constant stressing I am not Gay comes off at best as denial or insecurity and at its worst as saying "Well at least I am not Gay" I know in many cases perhaps this is not the case. But this is the way it reads to outsiders {and more than a few insiders) Me thinks SHE does protest to much. (thanks Debs UK)
:bighug::bighug:Self acceptence is the hardest thing! I am gad you like the thread, and I hope it has helped in your struggle in some way hugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BARBARA_MELENDEZ
Interesting thread........
And much like the Japanese Kabuki theater actors who took female roles, many on this site my indeed be gay. Others may NOT be gay and some will fall into the 'bisexual' label. I wonder if it really matters in the grand scheme of things.
Frankly, I've never cared. I've never had to 'explain' myself.
huh??Quote:
Originally Posted by justinefallow
lol she means that he's doing something with his other hand :D which is also interesting :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CaitlynRenee
Well I could go on about what a load of ill-informed claptrap this statement actually is, and how you should maybe read a book that has more words than pictures in it, but it is difficult to communicate with the hard of thinking sometimes so I'll just say...Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmuscle
Shush!
The adults are talking!
Simple for me... I don't want to be thought of as gay because I am not... I do not want to advertise myself to people in a way that means they will be severely disappointed with who I am. This is the CD paradox.
I am who I am... it is complex and difficult to fathom, but I am learning...
:hugs:
this is a classic!Quote:
Originally Posted by DebsUK
Before knocking down Seanmuscle comments, please go back to the thread “Crossing dressing and dating guys?” which received more than 700 posts. A very high proportion of members (80%?) said that when dressed, they are interested of being with a man. Should they be all classified as Gays? Technically yes, because the common definition of Gay is a “male” to “male “ relationship. However, if we accept that we have a woman side, it is quite understandable that with time that woman side will claim its due and ask for retribution and satisfaction, sometimes just as a fantasy. I am not convinced that we can call that type of relationship a Gay relationship. If we remove the cross-dressing side, we would not have any relationship because almost every responder insisted on the "when dressed" aspect.