Can you CD w/o being TG?

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Originally Posted by Asche

I think one reason we don't reach agreement on this is that we don't agree on what "gender" is in the first place.

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Or to put it another way, you disagree with the internationally accepted definitions used by health professionals all over the world and posted recently by Reine
where we read

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Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch).

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.

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"Women's equality is a female attempt to become male... "

Wow.

"... but men don't freak out when a woman shows up at work wearing jeans, work boots, a flannel shirt and baseball cap?? So why should women, or men for that matter, freak when a guy show up to work wearing a suit and tie, perfectly pressed skirt and proper heels?? "

Because gender ROLES are culturally-determined. In a way, you've made the case for CDing to be indicative of TG IDENTITY. That is, to overcome social mores so strong and so heavily enforced requires an inner driver, unless perhaps one is a sociopath. Arguments about just liking fabrics and such really don't cut it when weighed against this kind of social pressure. (I'm speaking of those who are publically out or would be.)

There is a constant muddle in these discussions between gender identity and expression/role. The women's movement of the last century has nothing to do with a change in identity but everything to do with role and expression.

I can accept the possibility that someone closeted might not be TG, though I'd be sceptical. But out? Hardly.

Lea

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

Or to put it another way, you disagree with the internationally accepted definitions used by health professionals all over the world and posted recently by Reine
where we read

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As it happens, I like the cited definitions a lot. Still, this is a logic error. There isn't a sole authority or set of definitions. All of these have changed over time and will again. Also keep in mind that the TG community itself has had a major role in the evolution of these definitions. Ie, discussions like these are part of the process that evolves medical practice itself. It's always fair to challenge. I know people get tired of it, but it's a major reason that things have progressed in a positive direction.

Lea

Its been interesting to watch this discussion revolve around in circles. One thing I've observed on this site over the past two years is that whenever a question about gender identity comes up in relation to cross dressing, inevitably the discourse heads off into a debate about labels, defnitions etc.

My guess is that some of us would prefer to define "oureselves" in a certain way, and that leads us to dispute the definitions themselves. Basically, if as a CDr, I don't like the idea of considering myself among the "transgendered", then I'll dispute the idea by disputing or redefining the term. Disputing the definition becomes a denial mechanism.

Its ok, this is a discussion group.

I'd like to have an argument please??

No you wouldn't

Yes i would

No you wouldn't

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I think that anytime you put on girl clothes we all have that ''what if'' thought.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

Its been interesting to watch this discussion revolve around in circles. One thing I've observed on this site over the past two years is that whenever a question about gender identity comes up in relation to cross dressing, inevitably the discourse heads off into a debate about labels, defnitions etc.

My guess is that some of us would prefer to define "oureselves" in a certain way, and that leads us to dispute the definitions themselves. Basically, if as a CDr, I don't like the idea of considering myself among the "transgendered", then I'll dispute the idea by disputing or redefining the term. Disputing the definition becomes a denial mechanism.

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If it were endless discussion about mere semantics, I'd understand the frustration more than I do. I get frustrated myself when I see someone citing a published term (e.g., from WPATH) when they clearly don't understand it. But it's not semantics. Access to care, insurance payment, and legal protections all critically revolve around these terms. Social acceptance and progression revolve around the positioning (and understanding) of TG behaviors and all of this has to be baked into terminology that has a common meaning for the general public who will never be educated in the nuances.

There was an earlier post I thought had value that contained a nugget about terminology within the community versus outside. The general public is not going to accept CD'ing as normal, a hobby, or anything like that. I also don't see a shift to broadening the types of male clothing into the Cis range in my lifetime. So, from the outside, seeing CD'ing as a manifestation of TG identity - at whatever level - is perfectly reasonable, especially given that TG is coming to be recognized as a normal human variation. I think it's vastly preferable to the historic alternatives, too. Anyone for CD'ing as infantilist latent homosexuality, for example?

Lea

I am at midlife, or 3/5ths midlife since my grandmother is on her way to reaching her 101th birthday in a couple of months.
I finally accepted my cd/trans side almost three years ago. Even though I no plans on "transitioning" as far as I know at this stage, I lost 25 lbs in a year & a half , I got rid of the goat tee, and grew my hair for a year, and now I have a ponytail, I dye it, and I'm going for another year of long hair without cutting it, I did about 8 electrolysis sessions and 2 laser sessions on the beard, and my ears have been pierced since college, and I look like I'm straddling on the fence of transition these days...and i'm fine with that.

Make me as gender ambiguous a possible, and I'm happy.

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

Or to put it another way, you disagree with the internationally accepted definitions used by health professionals all over the world ...

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They can define whatever they want -- I am hardly in a position to stop them. But I will feel free to argue that they are framing things in a way that allows them to make enforcing social norms seem like the only sane policy to take. This definition is not a neutral, objective description, it is a way of supporting the status quo.

The mental health profession has had a long tradition of assuming that if the essence of an individual comes into conflict with how society likes to run things, it is the individual who is broken, not society, and it is the individual who must change to fit society, not society to accommodate the individuals within it. The most obvious recent example is the classification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, but there are plenty of others. Drapetomania is one of the more embarrassing ones.

Gender is a general formal and functional characteristic. Sex is a specific formal characteristic. Sexuality is a specific functional characteristic. Our gender classification includes sex and sexual elements but is more comprehensive than either of these attributes. Our gender classification is complex, so it's hard to talk about it without confusing some people. Gender attributes describe us, are prescribed for us, and we subscribe to some of them. Gender is subjective, objective, real, and artificial in different aspects.

Transgender people self-identify as one gender (masculine or feminine) but have significant characteristics (formal and functional) that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Our genders are not completely self-determined or socially-determined. They are determined by a combination of personal and social factors.

I think it's hilarious how some of the members of this site try to defend their manhood and their crossdressing simultaneously. It always makes me chuckle (and sometimes snort with laughter). To be fair, however, it's possible to be a transmasculine crossdresser. It just isn't possible to be a cismasculine one. Cisgender people self-identify as one gender and don't have any significant characteristics that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Crossdressing is a deal breaker for cisgender classification. You can't be a cisgender person and a crossdresser. You might be a transmasculine crossdresser, but you will never be a cismasculine one. You can still be manly in a transy mansy sort of way, but not manly like a cisman.

For the record, there is nothing wrong with being transgender. Transgender people are normal members of any human population. We are normal minority members, but our minority status is just as valid as the status of any majority member.

To Pink Person

Your first two paragraphs are an extremely well written essay on the meaning of the term gender, and I am in complete agreement with you. You then spoil it with what appears to be somewhat of a sexist rant about manhood and crossdressing. How do you define "significant" when referring to characteristics commonly associated with the other gender. We can all be compassionate, aggressive, competetive, nurturing and on and on. There have been times in history when men have dressed flamboyantly and women dressed conservatively.

Experiencing the sensations of wearing a dress and discovering what some of the superficial trappings of society's image of womanhood might feel like, may be nothing more than an exercise in intellectual curiosity. Does this make him any less of a man than the stay-at-home house husband who raises the kids? Is the woman who becomes a professional boxer any less of a woman because of that? If the man who crossdresses finds it relaxing and a pleasant escape from the usual demands of his normal everyday existence, is this any different from the man who spends every weekend on the golf course, or gambles at a casino, or vegetates in front of the boob tube? If a man chooses to play football, we don't label him as a sadistic pervert who enjoys punishing people. He may well be, but let other factors determine that, and not just a love of football. If a man crossdresses, why do we have to label his anything, particularly transgendered, with all its implications of gender confusion and uncertainty, as well as permanence as if that describes his entirety. He may well be transgendered, but let the additional factors determine that and not just crossdressing.

You refer frequently to cisgender, a term coined fairly recently, which means self identification with one gender or the other. Does the cisgendered male not have the ability to be compassionate or to cry on occasion. Is he supposed to be devoid of any emotion other than anger and such. If so, why do you refuse to allow a crossdresser to also self identify as a man, despite the fact that he might occasionally wear a few items of clothing that society says are a no-no, but have no impact on his own personal identity, or feelings about himself?

We do not all fit neatly into little boxes that all bear the same descriptive labels. We are individuals, and deserve to be treated as such. Transgendered and Cisgendered, both sound like terms that say "This is what you are, get into your little box and be quiet"

Veronica

The class of people who are transgender actually has more diversity than the class of people who are cisgender, but both classes have a large amount of particular diversity despite the general similarity of their members.

Even though there is quite a lot of diversity within cisgender and transgender classes, there is no intersection between them. You are either in one class or the other. Boys (and men) named Sue who dress up like women to relax, or pursue a cure for cancer, are excluded from claiming cisgender status for themselves because the act of crossdressing is never just about wearing the clothes. It isn't about relaxing or curing cancer either. How we dress ourselves is an expression of our core personal gender values. People with core masculine values dress in a masculine manner. People with core feminine values dress in a feminine manner. People with core gender values that conflict with some of their other significant gender characteristics are transgender. You can be a silly duck and deny it, but you aren't fooling anyone but yourself.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch).

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.

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It still does not deviate from any of the other definitions posted on wiki and other places and has nothing new. It has two parameters to define transgender:---
Interpreting the 1st line, it says all CDs are TG's. And the next line says that the INTRINSIC sense must differ from the gender assigned at birth. So, why do you just assume that all CD's intrinsic sense is different.. Most people making that assumption here are not even CD's, but TS/GG's who do not share same mindset as us.

If this is the most accurate definition, then CD's are definitely not TG's. :tongueout

I don't know any men who express their intrinsic masculinity by wearing a wig, makeup, and a dress; but it's okay with me if they want to make absurd claims about themselves and their behavior.

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Originally Posted by Pink Person

I don't know any men who express their intrinsic masculinity by wearing a wig, makeup, and a dress, but it's okay with me if they want to make absurd claims about themselves and their behavior.

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We are talking about intrinsic sense of the mind(or how you feel) not extrinsic sense of your appearance. Lets go back to the definition of Gender Identity,

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Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch).

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Do you see any mention of wig/makeup/bra/panties? :battingeyelashes:

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Originally Posted by sara.s

So, why do you just assume that all CD's intrinsic sense is different.. Most people making that assumption here are not even CD's, but TS/GG's who do not share same mindset as us.

If this is the most accurate definition, then CD's are definitely not TG's. :tongueout

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First, this is not my definition, but the WPATH's, which I'm sure they've come up with after a great deal of study and deliberation, using teams of experts in the field.

And second, don't you think that when a birth male wants to see himself looking like a woman in the mirror, it is because there is a part of his identity that differs from the sex assigned at birth? Why else would he gain so much pleasure or satisfaction from seeing himself looking feminine? Males who have solid male core identities do not want to look or feel feminine.

I think the problem is that people define the world differently. I got called out on the crossdresserchatcity forum (as well as called names ) because I dared to say that crossdressing can fall under the transgender spectrum. Individuals who many of us would consider transsexual felt insulted that I dared use that term. So this is a hotbutton topic for some.

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Originally Posted by msginaadoll

I think the problem is that people define the world differently. I got called out on the crossdresserchatcity forum (as well as called names ) because I dared to say that crossdressing can fall under the transgender spectrum. Individuals who many of us would consider transsexual felt insulted that I dared use that term. So this is a hotbutton topic for some.

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I know. It would be so much easier if everyone could just remove their own agendas for a moment, and read the definitions with an objective mindset, and see there is a great deal of room in each definition to allow for a wide range of expression.

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Originally Posted by sara.s

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch).

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.

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Interpreting the 1st line, it says all CDs are TG's.

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Actually, the first line you quote talks about your gender identity - which can be man, woman or something in between. It is this identity which is intrinsic, not whether you are cisgender (a man/woman who conforms to the culturally defined categories of gender) or transgender (crossing or transcending those norms).

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Originally Posted by sara.s

And the next line says that the INTRINSIC sense must differ from the gender assigned at birth.

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It does not say that anywhere

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Originally Posted by sara.s

So, why do you just assume that all CD's intrinsic sense is different.. Most people making that assumption here are not even CD's, but TS/GG's who do not share same mindset as us.

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Those of us who accept the internationally agreed definitions do not argue that MtF cross-dressers do not see themselves as intrinsically male.

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Originally Posted by sara.s

If this is the most accurate definition, then CD's are definitely not TG's.

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To what definition do you refer? Certainly not the one that you quote. You insist (and no-one wants to contradict you) that you are intrinsically male, yet at the same time you refuse to accept that your behaviour in cross-dressing goes beyond the cultural definition of male gender behaviour.

The final sentence quoted above merely states that not everyone's gender identity will differ from your sex at birth to the same extent, but I am not alone here in finding it hard to credit that you see your behaviour as reflecting an intrinsic sense of being 100% male.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

First, this is not my definition, but the WPATH's, which I'm sure they've come up with after a great deal of study and deliberation, using teams of experts in the field.

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Yeah, i read that.. I acknowledge..

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Originally Posted by ReineD

And second, don't you think that when a birth male wants to see himself looking like a woman in the mirror, it is because there is a part of his identity that differs from the sex assigned at birth? Why else would he gain so much pleasure or satisfaction from seeing himself looking feminine?

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Lets talk about me first..
Even before cd'ing on part time, i used to change my hairstyle, beard style alternatively to make it interesting. I love just about anything that make me look different. Its fun, may be i might have costume fetish but not enough money and storage. I don't shave when getting dressed, just the area visible; and that too only if there is thick hair growth. If you remember, long time ago i had created a thread about going out as superman vs going out as woman to mall and which would be thrilling.

I don't feel feminine dressed or not; i don't dress at home, nor i underdress outside. I am just bored of wearing the same outfit the second time over, and also it's been such a long time since i purchased women's outfits. As for your question on satisfaction i get looking at the mirror... answer is simple. I am hetero-sexual lol. I like to look at beautiful girls. I just keep staring at the mirror and thinking why can't she be real and wished if i could drag her out from there. If you hadn't noticed, for a long time, my status was "In love...(with myself)".

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Males who have solid male core identities do not want to look or feel feminine.

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This is a shallow definition of "solid male". It is as if saying, females with solid female core identities will not want to look or feel masculine. Its actually embedded in US society, that if you are "male with solid core identities" then it must not look feminine, you must be going to gym and build muscles. Its only here that manliness is measured in terms of muscle build up. What about countries where men are short, aren't they "solid men" because they are short. There might have been many men in US army who may have looked cute/short and gave up their lives defending the country. Aren't they "solid males"? And how about TXKimberly who served in military and a bravest cd here? In a country with football as a primary game, this kinda concept of "Solid Male" is not a surprise. If you dare many of these so called "solid males" to dress up and makeup and walk in a far away town, you ll probably see how sissy they are. I am not suggesting CD's are solid males either, but that a "solid male" is intrinsically brave rather than extrinsically strong. And btw i used to be a crazy risktaking biker before i came to US. And i wonder how many "solid males" can beat me at that.

There are so many cd's who say they don't find their feminine self, but most here keep ignoring them unless they say they mention the "pink fog" word. They have their own reasons for dressing, some sexual, some comfort. Everyone is different and just because there are majority of one type of people doesn't mean you have to kick out the others.

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

It does not say that anywhere

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??? Looks like you have lost it. :doh:
At least Reine got what I said, I will just debate with her.

The only thing that unites all the crossdressers is an urge to wear clothes of the other sex. It seems to be more typical that there are some feelings of other gender, too. For example for me it is very important point in crossdressing. However I konw some cd:s who just want to be a man in woman's clothes, even without any significant fetishist flavour.

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Originally Posted by sara.s

??? Looks like you have lost it. :doh:
At least Reine got what I said, I will just debate with her.

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So I have lost it because you make an untrue statement - fine! We'll all use Humpty Dumpty logic to make you feel better.

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Originally Posted by Jonianne

TG tends to have multiple definations.

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The term Transgender was coined in 1984 in a usenet newsgroup to provide a broad definition for those who enjoyed different aspects of femininity, such as dressing, behavior, make-up, and so on, but were not necessarily transsexual. It started during a conversation around transsexuals and Kinsey's "Scale" of sexual preference. The concept of transgender was intended to allow for a scale from something like 1 - totally happy with my natural gender to 6 - full-blown transsexual.

However, it's entirely possible to be a 1 - a man who enjoys being "All Man" and enjoys dressing up in girls clothes for a short time strictly for sexual pleasure or to please a partner, then go back to being "All man" again. On the other end of the spectrum, there are those who, given the time and money would want a sex change more than anything else in the world, and yet feels that, since they have to exist as men, for now, will dress as men for work and other social events.

Perhaps there should be a distinction between IDENTITY and ACTIVITY, or perhaps that is the difference between Transgender (Identity) and Transsexual (Actions/Behavior).

It's ironic that a popular them in transgender liturature is the "Forced Feminization" where a heterosexual "all man" male is forced to undergo a transformation into feminine appearance, behavior, and activities, including sex with men, and resists each new step toward transition until they eventually surrender and become women.

Perhaps the reason this genre is so popular, is because so many transgendered and transsexual men feel like they have been forced to live in their male gender role, and are not able to live in their preferred gender role.

I have been to many meetings of Cross-dresser meetings where there were, in addition to thet feminine men who wanted to look and act as much like a girl as possible, men who were obviously men, who enjoyed being men, and had zero desire to be a woman, look completely like a woman, or even be viewed as a woman, and just liked dressing up "for kicks". One enjoyed playing football in high school and college, still hung out with the boys, and didn't start dressing until very late. He and his wife enjoyed having sex while he was dressed up, but neither wanted him to go out in general public while dressed.

Our imaginations are powerful deceivers. Girly-men who pout (with pretty red lips) and stamp their (high fashion) heels when anyone else suggests they aren't "all manly" are suffering from a very clouded perception of reality indeed. Is it a pink cloud or a blue cloud? It doesn't matter. They can't see straight, I mean queer, when it is staring at them in the mirror. They have a very special alternative vision of themselves in their mind's eye. Unfortunately, sometimes our mind's eye sees things that don't exist, like a desert mirage or "all manly" crossdressers.

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

So I have lost it because you make an untrue statement - fine!

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You think i made a untrue statement bcos you failed to read my post correctly. Anyways, I want to clarify that: In my post by "It has two parameters to define transgender:---Interpreting the 1st line, ..." I was referring to the 1st line in the definition of Transgender.

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Originally Posted by sara.s

I don't feel feminine dressed or not; i don't dress at home, nor i underdress outside. I am just bored of wearing the same outfit the second time over, and also it's been such a long time since i purchased women's outfits.

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Well, then you may be the exception to the majority of members here? If you transform yourself into a feminine being because of your love of costumes, and you alter this with other transformations such as superman or any form of cosplay (that is not crossplay or a doller), in other words if it is more a case of dress up that is independent from the feminine gender, then I agree you are not transgender. You might tomorrow decide to become a jedi and be happy with that for a few years?

But, if the costuming is specifically female gender oriented, it may indicate a wish to be feminine somehow, even if it is only sometimes?

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Originally Posted by sara.s

This is a shallow definition of "solid male". It is as if saying, females with solid female core identities will not want to look or feel masculine. Its actually embedded in US society, that if you are "male with solid core identities" then it must not look feminine, you must be going to gym and build muscles. Its only here that manliness is measured in terms of muscle build up.

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I have to disagree with you there. Boys and men (who are not TG) have no wish to present in any way, shape or form as feminine. It is not who they are. And it also doesn't mean they are into muscle building. I can think of scores of males who are not into the stereotypical guy stuff: the musicians, the artists, the history buffs, the political activists, the scholar bowl guys who have their own brand of sexiness in high school for some girls, by just being brainy, or intensely into whatever it is they're into even if it is not muscle, guns, and cars. :)

As to the comment about women who appear to CDs as if they want to feel masculine, well, it's been done to death in this forum, but allow me to simply say that women do not feel masculine when they wear jeans or are into sports. They feel like women who wear jeans and who are into sports. In other words, they have no desire to present as a gender opposite than who they are, except of course the transmen. There may be some butch women may have gender ambiguity, just as some gay guys might too, but I don't think we're talking about them.

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Originally Posted by sara.s

As for your question on satisfaction i get looking at the mirror... answer is simple. I am hetero-sexual lol. I like to look at beautiful girls. I just keep staring at the mirror and thinking why can't she be real and wished if i could drag her out from there. If you hadn't noticed, for a long time, my status was "In love...(with myself)".

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You make a reference to autogynephilia (the love of oneself as a woman). My response is that our sexual expression is a fundamental part of who we are, even if in our conservative society many people compartmentalize it. Why would one male who loves women get off on seeing himself dressed as one, while another male who also loves women would not be satisfied doing this? It does have to do with core identity even if the person involved thinks it is just sex and therefore it doesn't count. If you read the threads here from the older CDs, you'll see that for an overwhelming number, it did start out as just sex. But then it solidified into a more concrete form of feminine identity over the years, to the point where for many CDs in their 50s & 60s, it is no longer about sex at all.

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Originally Posted by DebbieL

However, it's entirely possible to be a 1 - a man who enjoys being "All Man" and enjoys dressing up in girls clothes for a short time strictly for sexual pleasure or to please a partner, then go back to being "All man" again

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OK, lets talk about a male for whom the wearing of feminine items is strictly pure, unadulterated fetish. It's related to sex and sex only. If he's married, they're both into it in the bedroom. It could be anything really, spiky heels, or corsets, or boas, or non feminine items such as feathers, or diapers, or bondage, or gagging. An object fetish is strictly an object fetish.

But, when the sexual gratification occurs when a male takes on a feminine persona (he becomes a woman in his imagination), then it is indicative of something much, much deeper than just having a foot fetish and getting off on stilettos or boots, for example.

Also, if the CDs in this forum for whom the dressing is highly sexual are to be honest with themselves, can they say that they do not get off on feeling specifically feminine, ever? Judging by the threads in this forum, the majority of members here enjoy looking feminine, acting feminine, feeling feminine, they enjoy seeing each other look, act, and feel feminine. It's way more than, "I just do this for sex". :p

Edit

I'm not trying to be difficult, but what is so wrong with admitting to feelings of wanting to be feminine even if it is sometimes, and why such a strong fight to preserve strictly a male identity when it is obvious that sometimes the male identity becomes eclipsed? Is it the homophobia or the transphobia that seems to be inbred in males as they socialize themselves into adult men?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

You might tomorrow decide to become a jedi and be happy with that for a few years?

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Jedi for many years is so boring. I would rather change it up everytime. :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I have to disagree with you there. Boys and men (who are not TG) have no wish to present in any way, shape or form as feminine. It is not who they are. And it also doesn't mean they are into muscle building.
I can think of scores of males who are not into the stereotypical guy stuff: the musicians, the artists, the history buffs, the political activists, the scholar bowl guys who have their own brand of sexiness in high school for some girls, by just being brainy, or intensely into whatever it is they're into even if it is not muscle, guns, and cars. :)

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But you still do not deny that a much larger fraction of young girls like the stereotypical guys (muscle, guns cars). Right? There is something in it for the girl too, i am just guessing bragging rights, more shopping, more parties, more luxury, riding on expensive car, better future.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

As to the comment about women who appear to CDs as if they want to feel masculine, well, it's been done to death in this forum, but allow me to simply say that women do not feel masculine when they wear jeans or are into sports. They feel like women who wear jeans and who are into sports. In other words, they have no desire to present as a gender opposite than who they are, except of course the transmen. There may be some butch women may have gender ambiguity, just as some gay guys might too, but I don't think we're talking about them.

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I totally and completely agree to this. I never said anything about jeans sports butch etc. I just reversed the sex/gender in your own statement "Males who have solid male core identities do not want to look or feel feminine." and equated it to the original statement. You support your original statement but you take offense for a converse statement. Either agree to both, or reject both.. Is there any reason why you would reject JUST the converse of the statement? You as a woman know women do not feel masculine when they wear jeans or are into sports; but when a CD says the same thing, "Hey i am wearing skirt, i don't feel feminine, it is fun (or it gives me a kick)", you dont beleive it. This is not fair :(

On a side note, women do feel powerful when they wear pants. I know many friends who have said that.. So, also this article http://www.styleswept.ca/2011/07/doe...powerful-.html. Masculine is defined as "having qualities traditionally attributed to men". Women go for power dressing to feel more powerful; doesn't that mean they are feeling masculine (i.e. powerful: power is a quality traditionally attributed to men). Other attributes traditionally attributed to men are domination, etc Nothing wrong with that. But women feel offended if we use "masculine" word, but are okay with calling it "fighting for womens rights". Yet, you don't us to be offended if we feel feminine.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

You make a reference to autogynephilia (the love of oneself as a woman). My response is that our sexual expression is a fundamental part of who we are, even if in our conservative society many people compartmentalize it. Why would one male who loves women get off on seeing himself dressed as one, while another male who also loves women would not be satisfied doing this?

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If i get off seeing myself dressed (which i do once a month) and be satisfied by that, I would probably be seeing a doc by now. I do have so many real girls to think about.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

It does have to do with core identity even if the person involved thinks it is just sex and therefore it doesn't count. If you read the threads here from the older CDs, you'll see that for an overwhelming number, it did start out as just sex. But then it solidified into a more concrete form of feminine identity over the years, to the point where for many CDs in their 50s & 60s, it is no longer about sex at all.

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Each person is different.

What I find amusing about this topic and thread is that those who possess feelings of either being (wholly or partially) or becoming (when crossdressed), the other gender, are determined that everyone who dons a dress must share the same sense of gender identity as themselves. The only exceptions are fetishists, performers and the like. Meanwhile, those who express from their own personal experience, that they personally do not feel any sense of cross gender identity, whether dressed or not, are shot down by the know-it-alls in the first group who insist that they know what is going on in the minds of the latter group. This latter group does not dispute that the former group may be experiencing what they describe but are simply pointing out that it is not a one size fits all situation. Where's the tolerance for diversity of opinion and thought?

Any attempts by the second group at describing their feelings or explaining how they perceive of the various terminology and its applicability to their situation are summarily dismissed as so much "twaddle" or "gobbledygook" by the first group. Members of both groups can become quite heated in their responses; the first group because they think the other groups arguments are nonsense, and the second group because the first group are not willing to listen. Given the choice, I go for independent thought.

Sitting back and reading it all is really quite hillarious.

And that's just ducky.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by sara.s

But you still do not deny that a much larger fraction of young girls like the stereotypical guys (muscle, guns cars). Right? There is something in it for the girl too, i am just guessing bragging rights, more shopping, more parties, more luxury, riding on expensive car, better future.

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This is pure stereotype. The reality is, there is a variety of men out there, and they do end up finding partners who love them and marry them, and go on to raise families. The idea that women in general prefer the stereotypical male is totally false. Different things float different people's boats! There are nerdy girls just as there are nerdy guys. There are intellectual girls just as there are intellectual guys. There are artsy girls just as there are artsy guys. There are goth girls just as there are goth guys. And they all find each other! :)

Honestly, I think that men who experience gender issues need to necessarily find a way to survive in a homophobic and transphobic world and so they wrap a big protective blanket around their inner cores in order to survive. I don't blame them given the world we live in, but this leads to a development of all manner or rationalization and scornful beliefs in gendered stereotypes, when in fact, they just need to relax and accept who they are and also realize that we do live in a varied world.

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Originally Posted by sara.s

You as a woman know women do not feel masculine when they wear jeans or are into sports; but when a CD says the same thing, "Hey i am wearing skirt, i don't feel feminine, it is fun (or it gives me a kick)", you dont beleive it. This is not fair :(

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Again, I'm going by the thousands of threads I've read here, the pictures in the Gallery, the accounts of how wonderful it is to feel and look and act pretty and feminine. Just read the forum! If you are in fact an exception, that's fine. If you like to go out looking like a guy wearing a skirt or it's just a fun costume for you, that's great! But you can't say that the majority of the CDers who participate here do not have the goal of crossing the gender lines.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

The reality is, there is a variety of men out there, and they do end up finding partners who love them and marry them, and go on to raise families.

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These are not baseless stereotypes. You may pick a girl and ask her, Who she thinks is a "solid male" a nerd, a artsy, or Football player?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

this leads to a development of all manner or rationalization and scornful beliefs in gendered stereotypes, when in fact, they just need to relax and accept who they are and also realize that we do live in a varied world.

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We realize who we are, and also realize that the world is varied... but we don't want to described as who we are not. we don't want to be stereotyped again, we already have enough of stereo types.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Again, I'm going by the thousands of threads I've read here, the pictures in the Gallery, the accounts of how wonderful it is to feel and look and act pretty and feminine.

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If women can act rough, powerful, arrogant, dominant and not feel masculine and therefore not crossing gender lines and therefore not transgender.... then similarly, men can feel calm, submissive, patient and not feel feminine and therefore not crossing gender lines and therefore not transgender....
Women probably feel like that because of the position, money power.. and we because of wearing women's outfits.

If position/money power does not change a women's personality so also wearing women's clothes may not change a man's personality.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But you can't say that the majority of the CDers who participate here do not have the goal of crossing the gender lines.

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"Gender-lines" is an interesting word.. Women fought hard to cross it, because that's where the jobs, respect, stability and so much more lies.. But its so hard to understand why men would want to cross gender lines.. isn't it?

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Originally Posted by sara.s

If women can act rough, powerful, arrogant, dominant and not feel masculine and therefore not crossing gender lines and therefore not transgender.... then similarly, men can feel calm, submissive, patient and not feel feminine and therefore not crossing gender lines and therefore not transgender....

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If you think that women act rough, powerful, arrogant, and dominant, and that men who dress don't cross gender lines, then I give up, Sara. You win! :) :hugs:

oh sara....
when i read your posts, this comes to mind..

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

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Originally Posted by ReineD

If you think that women act rough, powerful, arrogant, and dominant, and that men who dress don't cross gender lines, then I give up, Sara. You win! :) :hugs:

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We definitely cross gender lines, but just we were only discussing the WPATH definition here.

And yeah, there are few women, who are something like that... no offense meant! But you seem to be a very tolerant and wonderful woman, supporting your cd hubby and all the CD/TS and also TG's! We all win :hugs:

Crossdressers who compare themselves to women to prove their manliness are making a false
comparison. The true and relevant comparison they should be making is between themselves and other men who don't crossdress. Any crossdresser who measures himself in this manner and doesn't notice a significant gender difference is suffering from a very severe form of denial.

I get it. Some of you desperately want to keep your maleness, and your masculinity, and your combined manliness. No problem, Betty, but you only get to keep some of each of these things. Crossdressers have forfeited any reasonable claim to cismaleness, cismasculinity, and combined cismanliness. The best that they can hope to rightfully claim for themselves is transmaleness, transmasculinity, and transmanliness. This is the shoe that fits you, princess, so put it on. It's not like you don't want to do it.

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Originally Posted by Pink Person

Crossdressers have forfeited any reasonable claim to cismaleness, cismasculinity, and combined cismanliness. The best that they can hope to rightfully claim for themselves is transmaleness, transmasculinity, and transmanliness. This is the shoe that fits you, princess, so put it on. It's not like you don't want to do it.

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I think the big issue among the CDers who don't wish to claim transmaleness as you call it (good description!), is a belief that it is wrong to be TG, as if it takes away from who they are or it makes them lesser men somehow. This comes from being socialized in a trans/homophobic world and having internalized the transphobia.** It's a shame, really. I'm in love with a CD who considers him/herself dualgender. I don't think he or she is less of anything at all! It's like being bilingual. Knowing two languages doesn't make a person any less proficient in either one! In fact, it enriches a person in many more ways than knowing just the two languages. :)

** For those who are interested, see the next to the last definition in the link under my signature ... also google it for more in depth articles.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

It's like being bilingual. Knowing two languages doesn't make a person any less proficient in either one! In fact, it enriches a person in many more ways than knowing just the two languages. :).

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I really like this analogy Reine. I did the one, became rather proficient at it, now am moving on to the other. :)

Oh, IMHO there is no shame in being trans. Dumping the shame and guilt has been one of the most liberating things in my life.
Debby

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Merci Reine ;)
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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

oh sara....
when i read your posts, this comes to mind..

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

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Kaitlyn, that exact thought occurred to me when I read Sara's post.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I think the big issue among the CDers who don't wish to claim transmaleness as you call it (good description!), is a belief that it is wrong to be TG, as if it takes away from who they are or it makes them lesser men somehow. This comes from being socialized in a trans/homophobic world and having internalized the transphobia.

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Rather than saying it takes away from who we are, I would suggest that it tries to "imply" who we are and therefore imposes certain stereotypes upon us. In order to understand transgender, it is necessary to understand gender. I don't believe that there is any dispute over the meaning of trans. The word gender and the word genre have the same Greek root, and it pertains to classification. If you look up the definition of gender, most sources begin by referring to it as a grammatical term. It is a sub-category of a broader category such as a pronoun or a noun. A listing of the basis for describing the sub-category (gender or genre) is usually included and includes such things as shape, size, etc. and only lastly, sex.

The secondary usage of the word gender is usually a description of how the word has evolved into its relationship to the word "sexual identity" through common usage.

The World Health Organization definition of gender is: "Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women." This was expanded in a technical paper with the following: "Gender is related to how we are perceived and expected to think and act as women and men because of the way society is organized, not because of our biological differences." In other words gender is a social concept and involves social expectations and perceptions, not something that we possess internally.

Health Canada offers this description: "Gender refers to the array of socially constructed roles and relationships, personality traits, attitudes, behaviours, values, relative power and influence that society ascribes to the two sexes on a differential basis. Gender is relational - gender roles and characteristics do not exist in isolation, but are defined in relation to one another and through the relationships between women and men, girls and boys." i.e. society ascribes it. The determinant of masculinity and femininity can differ from society to society and era to era. It has nothing to do with "who we are" but is all about how society arbitrarily categorizes human qualities, and determines gender roles.

Next we must analyze gender identity. The definition you provide is good: "A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch)." The important words here are "intrinsic sense" which means the essential nature of a thing person etc.

If, for example, my intrinsic sense is that I am a man, then that does not change because I sometimes might wear clothing that society deems to be feminine, because femininity is simply a social construct. What I am doing is crossdressing which your definitions state is: "Crossdressing (transvestism): Wearing clothing and adopting a gender role presentation that, in a given culture, is more typical of the other sex." i.e. we are talking about presentation, and typical as determined by society, not the individual. The perception, by society, is not necessarily the reality.

Lastly, the definition you provided of transgender contradicts much of the foregoing thoughts:"Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth." In other words the adjective is being applied to the individuals, albeit a diverse group, when the reference is to the culturally ascribed norms that are being broken, and not the basic nature of the individual. Thus a man can show emotion and cry at a funeral, for example, which is generally considered a feminine trait, without it impacting his identity as a man. Similarly he can be a stay at home dad and raise the kids, a socially ascribed feminine role, without impacting his identity as a man. Why, then can he not dress and adopt most of the characteristics of appearance that society ascribes to women without it having an impact on his identity as a man?

If it impacts upon his identity of himself, then perhaps he is transgendered, but if not (and nothing says it must) he is not transgendered.

I fail to see why this issue is the subject of such harsh criticism as we find on this and other forums. Rather than disputing the logic, we are psychoanalized and diagnosed as possessing phobias of various sorts, or being unwilling to "accept" what to us is simply not true. We are not disputing that what the majority on these forums say is applicable to many cases, but simply making the point that in our own experience these claims are not universal. We are not all transgendered. Perhaps it is the transgendered who are battling some sort of phobia.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I think the big issue among the CDers who don't wish to claim transmaleness as you call it (good description!)

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Here we go.. one more label: transmaleness :doh:

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Rose

My brain hurts.
.......................
I still don't know what cisgender is either. Pink Person. You keeps saying things that are the equivalent of an optical illusion. If I read it with one eye closed and then back up and go close and back up and read it again......it sort of makes sense.....oh no....there it goes again....slid off my brain.

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I got it when I tried with left eye closed, followed by right eye wink and then a gentle nose tug. :D ...
Edit:just kidding, we really need a translator

Sara, what you call a label, I define as a vehicle that is used to communicate thoughts and ideas. They are necessary. Without them, we'd still be in the ice age. :)

Veronica, you make excellent points. I don't have the time right now, but I'll get back to you! :hugs:

I cried at a funeral once, but I wasn't wearing a dress, so no one thought I was being a sissy-man. If sissy-man is an unintelligible term for some of you, then ask anyone standing nearby what it means the next time you are wearing your meaningless, artificial, insignificant, socially constructed, and objectively indescribable naughty nurse outfit. There is no need to go to Canada for an opinion. Common people everywhere will not have trouble explaining things to you.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I think the big issue among the CDers who don't wish to claim transmaleness as you call it (good description!), is a belief that it is wrong to be TG, as if it takes away from who they are or it makes them lesser men somehow. This comes from being socialized in a trans/homophobic world and having internalized the transphobia. It's a shame, really. I'm in love with a CD who considers him/herself dualgender. I don't think he or she is less of anything at all!

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All of us CDers are actually "TG's in denial" because "we are scared of Trans/Homophobic world and internalization of transphobia in our minds or it makes us lesser men" is a very poor argument. You just keep repeating the same thing over again and again with no respite over 1000's of posts.

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Originally Posted by sara.s

All of us CDers are actually "TG's in denial" because "we are scared of Trans/Homophobic world and internalization of transphobia in our minds or it makes us lesser men" is a very poor argument. You just keep repeating the same thing over again and again with no respite over 1000's of posts.

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And you don't? - Apart from when you accuse people of "losing it" when they point out inconsistencies in your arguments.

Sara, I'm getting the impression you're taking this personally. You said earlier that you are not transgender, that for you it is a costume. I believe you. This discussion is not about you, specifically, it's about the thousands of members here who do feel, act, and look feminine when they dress, and this is reflected in their posts if you take the time to read them. If I believe what you tell me about yourself, then there is no argument.

Virginia, I still owe you a response. :)

Yes! TG is an identity for me! The question could be, "When do you stop being a CD?"

Now for me when I am out in public I do identify and if asked I will say I am a female, that's just me.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

..This discussion is not about you [sara.s], specifically, it's about the thousands of members here who do feel, act, and look feminine when they dress, and this is reflected in their posts if you take the time to read them. If I believe what you tell me about yourself, then there is no argument.

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However, there are plenty of people here who are quite willing to insist that any male who wears a dress or otherwise dresses or acts in a way they consider "feminine" is "transgender." Just look through this thread. A lot of people here are just not able to conceive of the idea that a male who does something "feminine" might be doing it for any reason other than to express some sort of feminine identity.

And while we can walk away from cd.com if we feel the folks here are just too bloody-minded, there are people in RL who apply the same Procrustean bed to us who we can't so easily walk away from (e.g., mental health professionals.) For a variety of reasons, I am fairly privileged, in that I can mostly blow such people off. Lots of people -- children in particular -- are not so privileged.

I have no problem with people calling themselves "transgender" if they feel it describes themselves. And to judge just from the titles of the posts here, there are an enormous number of people here for whom it is very much about their gender identity (or identities.)

What I object to is when people want lump together everyone whose behavior society sees as "crossing gender lines" under labels which imply that that behavior is about gender identity, and I argue that "transgender" is one such label.

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Originally Posted by Asche

What I object to is when people want lump together everyone whose behavior society sees as "crossing gender lines" under labels which imply that that behavior is about gender identity, and I argue that "transgender" is one such label.

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The definition says

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Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender.

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However you identify, what you do fits the adjective.

This thread, having throughly deconstructed "transgender" to the point of meaninglessness, has now devolved into a discussion of the meaning of "is."

Reductio ab Clintonum. And you know what the result of THAT is ... unimpeachable logic.

Lea