So, you want to Pass as a Woman!

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

The public at large, be they in a mall, restaurant or bathroom, don't look up. And if they do, they may think your a TS or in transition or a "Pat" and while there are questions, THEY don't care enough to react. Now, the upshot is, because you have confidence, and act like you belong, you are comfortable and that comfort give comfort to others around you. THAT'S the message.

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This is so true! I know I don't always pass. When I first started going out, I used to ask people, cashiers, store customers, anybody, "did you know I was a guy before I started talking to you?" Most answered yes but many of them said I looked really good! I know I look good, better than I do as a man so I have that confidence. Now its like I don't really care what people may or may not think. Its just awesome to go out as a woman! If I go out with that happy, carefree atittude, I think people sense that and know they can't possibly shoot me down!

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Originally Posted by aalynn88

This is so true! I know I don't always pass. When I first started going out, I used to ask people, cashiers, store customers, anybody, "did you know I was a guy before I started talking to you?" Most answered yes but many of them said I looked really good!

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Wow, that's very brave and up-front, good for you!!

But weren't you disappointed that people could read you? I thought half the fun was the ability to pass in order to be treated like a girl and I was under the impression that being read is the worst, most disappointing fate. So if they know you are a man in a dress, does this not negate the experience and take away from your enjoyment?

Thanks for answering, I'm really curious about this.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

It just gets tricky when having a conversation with people up close though ... or at least this has been my SO's experience.

Back to my question ... I was wondering if there is a difference based on presentation, for those who do switch back and forth.
:)

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I get treated better at Home Depot for sure..lol Last weekend my wife ,daughter and myself were there selecting tile for my wife's "home improvement " project that she is doing.As three girls,we got the undivided attention attention of two guys that even admitted to enjoying helping women get what they came after. lol And the "guys" at the autoparts store always ask me if I know how to add whatever fluid I am buying..lol I don't see em doing that for the boys!

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But weren't you disappointed that people could read you? I thought half the fun was the ability to pass in order to be treated like a girl and I was under the impression that being read is the worst, most disappointing fate. So if they know you are a man in a dress, does this not negate the experience and take away from your enjoyment?

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It sure is nice to be treated like a lady. Validates the effort in presentation and practice. It doesn't mean that we pass or even need to pass though, just that we receive respect for effort in presentation and a willingness to accept that is how we perceive ourselves so people willingly 'play the game'.

If I wasn't prepared to be seen as a man in a dress, then I could never speak and therefore couldn't interact. How boring! It has taken a while to get to this level of comfort.

Great post well written I know it took a long time and was heart felt IMHO I feel some people are being a bit harsh

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Originally Posted by Michelle (Oz)

It has taken a while to get to this level of comfort.

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Exactly the same for my SO. For the longest time she was sort of in the background while out, not saying much, trying to not draw attention to herself, but also never knowing whether she "passed as a GG" or not. I suspect that many times, like others in this thread, she took an absence of remarks or notice as "passing". But when she decided to go to the next step and have human interactions, she had to come to terms with the fact that people knew that she was not a GG. In a way, she had to redefine a few things for herself but then I'm guessing (I don't live in her skin), that she became satisfied with others respecting her gender presentation.

So I look at it as a shift from fantasy to reality, but a happy reality for my SO nonetheless. The people who interact with her (and us) are friendly.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So I look at it as a shift from fantasy to reality, but a happy reality for my SO nonetheless. The people who interact with her (and us) are friendly.

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I have yet to see angry mobs with torches and pitchforks.It has been my experience that some people are in awe of how "gutsy" we are,and others are amazed at our presentation..Some of the ladies at UU church tell me that they enjoy seeing what I am wearing each week. Nothing comes without effort and getting comfortable in the mainstream world takes confidence and occasionally a thick skin!

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Wow, that's very brave and up-front, good for you!!

But weren't you disappointed that people could read you? I thought half the fun was the ability to pass in order to be treated like a girl and I was under the impression that being read is the worst, most disappointing fate. So if they know you are a man in a dress, does this not negate the experience and take away from your enjoyment?.

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It's definately a little disappointing for me knowing some can read me but just as long as I don't stick out like a sore thumb, I'm happy!! I know when I get up to the register, I'm gonna have to talk and Im instantly busted but when I'm just walking up and down the aisle, some people think I'm a woman. I believe this to be so because some of the people I asked said they thought I was a woman. I remember one lady said, "I couldn't tell. You look like about a 37 yr. old woman to me." which was REALLY nice because I'm acually 47. So, in answer to your question, no it doesn't really take much away from the enjoyment because the opinions of the folks that say I pass outweigh the ones who say I don't pass. Also, I feel that my 5 o clock moustache shadow is the main thing thats giving me away, aside from my voice of course, but after my 4 remaining laser treatments, well, I'm really hopeing thats no longer much of a problem.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'm curious, do you feel treated differently when you're dressed than when you're not

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Reine,

It doesn't happen often, but there have been times when I have been treated differently while dressed. Here are four examples:

Photo 1 is across from Noah's earlier in the morning.
I was in San Francisco for their Pride Day Parade last year and was out and about. I went to Noah's for a bagel in the early morning and the place was already packed. I got my bagel and went to one of the outside dining area tables to enjoy the morning sunshine and my bagel. This guy comes from the busy sidewalk through the outside dining area and starts flirting with me for about five minutes looking for a phone number and a date. I showed him my female wedding ringand sent him on his way.

Photo 2 photographer taking picture.
Later in the day, I was having my picture taken with one of the reigning the T-Girl pageant queens. The picture is blurry and does not do her justice. One cannot make out any features, so hopefully the moderators will allow the picture. After wards the photographer in the picture came up to me and we chatted. He finally told me that he knew I was a guy and found me more attractive and interesting than the pageant queen. Really? He too wanted a date. Again very flattering, but in a different way. Maybe because he was a photographer he has a keener eye or during our conversation he read me.

After the parade, I was walking around and this older gentleman was cleaning up the debris in front of one of the buildings. As I approached him, he waved me over and commented how cute I looked. We talked a bit and then I was on my way. Photo 3 is near where the older guy was cleaning up.

Did I pass in these three instances. Maybe 1 or 2 out of the 3 instances. I will never really know for sure. It didn't really matter. They were all positive pleasant interactions. Had a wonderful time during the pre and post Parade activities.

When in San Francisco I did a lot of walking around alone. Late one evening I was heading off to dinner at the Elephant Castle and a pan handler stopped me and asked for some money. I had not seen this person before. We did a little chit-chat and then I was on my way. I ate at the Elephant Castle maybe once a week and knew most of the waitresses by sight if not by name. Maybe forty minutes later the pan handler shows up in the restaurant bothering the customers when he notices me sitting there. He made a slight scene about knowing me. The manager quickly showed up soon after he entered the restaurant, but checked to see if I knew him and before escorting him outside. The waitresses kept coming over to tell me he was still waiting outside. They were all very protective of me. I realized how security conscious all the waitresses were. They even suggested that I go out the back door. He eventually left and I went out the front door and walked back home.

Anyway in guy mode, no guy has ever flirted with me, let alone ask me for a date. Never have any girls looked out for my safety in guy mode either.

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Originally Posted by Sophie Yang

Anyway in guy mode, no guy has ever flirted with me, let alone ask me for a date. Never have any girls looked out for my safety in guy mode either.

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I totally understand loving to be flirted with if you're interested in men. Thanks for your response! :)

Hi Rogina,

Interesting that you should mention the UU church. I go to two different ones--one in boy mode and the other in girl mode. The second one is way more fun and rewarding. What has been really new and interesting is that many of the women have taken me under their wing with introductions, sharing their space and letting me into their world. So far only two men have engaged in conversation but I still feel like a visiting rock star and warmly welcomed. What a treat to be recognized and valued for who we really are!

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Originally Posted by Debbie Johnson

What has been really new and interesting is that many of the women have taken me under their wing with introductions, sharing their space and letting me into their world. So far only two men have engaged in conversation but I still feel like a visiting rock star and warmly welcomed. What a treat to be recognized and valued for who we really are!

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This level of positive recognition and engagement is an interesting phenomenen way better than just tolerating our presence. Going back to Reine's post #53, it is this that elevates the enjoyment of the experience of being out and about beyond any success in passing.

I completely agree with Debbie and Michelle..And those feelings "dovetail"into my thread about"Living the Life most of the time" After all,if it wasn't such a positive experience,I would never do it! And I love being "special"...it is another thing like"pretty" that we never get to experience as boys..

But, this is such a ridiculous thread!:sad:

Started by Barbara Jean who sounds like she means well. 3 years ago she was going to quit because of her "looks". But now, claims to pass 100% of the time? And, posts ZERO pics!?:eek:

Then, she's going to help us all to pass like she does. So far, the only thing I've learned is that I need to double my dress size!?

Finally, I'm told that what I really want is NOT to, "pass", but, "--to be accepted as a woman"? Like, there's a difference?:straightface:

Last add: Yes, I've been, "Mamm"ed by restaurant personnel. Neither they nor I rolled our eyes. But, there's was zero chance of them mistaking me for a female!:tongueout

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Originally Posted by Michelle (Oz)

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Originally Posted by Debbie Johnson

What has been really new and interesting is that many of the women have taken me under their wing with introductions, sharing their space and letting me into their world. So far only two men have engaged in conversation but I still feel like a visiting rock star and warmly welcomed. What a treat to be recognized and valued for who we really are!

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This level of positive recognition and engagement is an interesting phenomenen way better than just tolerating our presence. Going back to Reine's post #53, it is this that elevates the enjoyment of the experience of being out and about beyond any success in passing.

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Ok, I know we've gone back and forth a little in this thread, but there is one thing that I truly don't get and these quotes touch on it quite well.

When you (a collective you, not just the people quoted) are dressed as women and talk to other women who respect your presentation (who don't slam you for it), you feel rather elated for being included in the fold, in the women's circle so to speak, even if they know that you are men presenting as women. I take it then, that being accepted as a woman is the ultimate goal and it is what causes the warmest internal fuzzies.

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

(... although this doesn't apply for those of you who want to be flirted with by men ... then you really need to present as a woman.)

But for the rest of you, what is it that makes you feel that presenting as a woman makes people treat you any differently? Please don't get me wrong. I understand that you feel better about yourselves when you dress, you like the way that you look better when you're dressed. And dressing makes you feel more comfortable, more at ease with yourselves. But doesn't it just really boil down to wanting to feel feminine regardless of the conversations you have, and the clothes are a pathway for feeling this way?

.. because as mentioned, if it was about being included in women's conversations, honestly you could accomplish this dressed as a male if you wanted to. I can't tell you how many intimate conversations I've had with various men over the course of my life. Women don't just talk to each other, they talk to men too, honest! :)

Here is an example: A few years ago my SO in guy mode and I were at a party at someone's house. No one there knew that my SO is trans. The men were in the basement watching a sports game, and the women were in the kitchen playing a silly truth or dare board game or something (can't really remember). My SO was the only male sitting smack dab in the middle of some 6-8 women, enjoying himself fully! None of us curtailed our actions or our words, just because there was a guy in the room. He was included right into all the fun, laughter, and girl talk, the man jokes, everything! And boy, were we having fun ... one of those evenings where the laughter was loud enough to wake up the kids. And my SO was laughing just as hard and appreciating all of it just like the rest of us! There was no thought that he was a stranger in our midst, because women are just so darned inclusive! We don't care if the people who want to join us are men or women.

Some of you might say that at some deeper level all the women at the table might have felt my SO's female energy, but honestly that's not it. Any one of the men in the basement could have joined us and the conversation and all around glee would have been just the same!

Please don't take any of this as any form of criticism. Many of you know me, I'm just trying to get down to basics.

I appreciate those of you who will share your thoughts about this, because it does puzzle me that you feel you are treated differently when you wear certain clothes (except men flirting with you), ... although I do understand wearing the clothes to feel feminine and I do support this. :hugs:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

When you (a collective you, not just the people quoted) are dressed as women and talk to other women who respect your presentation (who don't slam you for it), you feel rather elated for being included in the fold, in the women's circle so to speak, even if they know that you are men presenting as women. I take it then, that being accepted as a woman is the ultimate goal and it is what causes the warmest internal fuzzies.

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

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Hard to explain Reine and perhaps this fits into the category of needing to experience to understand. It is not about participating in women's group conversations (only rarely do that either femme or homme). The special recognition and friendship comes from men as well as women. It is not just being treated like a lady. It is more being treated as a special person - friendly, different, vulnerable - I don't know what it is but in no way do I receive the same reactions when in male mode.

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Originally Posted by Michelle (Oz)

Hard to explain Reine and perhaps this fits into the category of needing to experience to understand. It is not about participating in women's group conversations (only rarely do that either femme or homme). The special recognition and friendship comes from men as well as women. It is not just being treated like a lady. It is more being treated as a special person - friendly, different, vulnerable - I don't know what it is but in no way do I receive the same reactions when in male mode.

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Men whether we like it or not carry a physical presence of action while females may carry a presence of softness and love. Think motherhood. Men greet each other with a handshake, if I remember correctly this dates back to the sword carrying days when two men would greet each other by grasping the others sword hand. Females great each other by embracing. The rules are just different.

I doubt I could pass 100% of the time, at least as I am today. It takes a lot of time and effort. It was so much easier for me to do so 20-25 years ago, and even then I had to be meticulous about my appearance and voice and I didn't always pull it off. It helps that I've always been petite, even for a male - 5'5'' and between 120 and 135 pounds. (I suppose that's because I've been a runner since my early teens so I've always been rather slim, with a few exceptions.)

its projection...and its a good kind of projection..

as a transsexual, i am sure i do it too...

if "on the inside" you feel a certain way, as in "im a woman" or "im feel like a woman"..and you are treated well, then you feel it on the inside and its rewarding...its a virtuous circle and i could imagine for crossdressers it incredibly validating to how they feel at that moment, and its not really important that if they were in guy mode they'd be treated the same way..

Not sure if it matters that I pass as long as people are kind in their treatment of me regardless of how I dress. I do prefer conversation with women to watching sports with the boys.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Ok, I know we've gone back and forth a little in this thread, but there is one thing that I truly don't get and these quotes touch on it quite well.

When you (a collective you, not just the people quoted) are dressed as women and talk to other women who respect your presentation (who don't slam you for it), you feel rather elated for being included in the fold, in the women's circle so to speak, even if they know that you are men presenting as women. I take it then, that being accepted as a woman is the ultimate goal and it is what causes the warmest internal fuzzies.

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.


Also if you are fortunate enough to be able to blend well with your presentation. People won't dare try and challenge your gender, they will take you for what you are. Studies have shown that challenging or mis-gendering is one of the worst things people want to get wrong.

As stated before getting into a long conversation up close with someone is a whole another ball game.

I was at a recent Trans conference and while sitting in the lobby I overheard another group of people who were there for a different event. They were trying to guess if some of the CDs were GGs or TS etc. One guy in the group said flat out "I'm not even going there, I'm not even gonna risk challenging someone's gender".



(... although this doesn't apply for those of you who want to be flirted with by men ... then you really need to present as a woman.)

But for the rest of you, what is it that makes you feel that presenting as a woman makes people treat you any differently? Please don't get me wrong. I understand that you feel better about yourselves when you dress, you like the way that you look better when you're dressed. And dressing makes you feel more comfortable, more at ease with yourselves. But doesn't it just really boil down to wanting to feel feminine regardless of the conversations you have, and the clothes are a pathway for feeling this way?

.. because as mentioned, if it was about being included in women's conversations, honestly you could accomplish this dressed as a male if you wanted to. I can't tell you how many intimate conversations I've had with various men over the course of my life. Women don't just talk to each other, they talk to men too, honest! :)

Here is an example: A few years ago my SO in guy mode and I were at a party at someone's house. No one there knew that my SO is trans. The men were in the basement watching a sports game, and the women were in the kitchen playing a silly truth or dare board game or something (can't really remember). My SO was the only male sitting smack dab in the middle of some 6-8 women, enjoying himself fully! None of us curtailed our actions or our words, just because there was a guy in the room. He was included right into all the fun, laughter, and girl talk, the man jokes, everything! And boy, were we having fun ... one of those evenings where the laughter was loud enough to wake up the kids. And my SO was laughing just as hard and appreciating all of it just like the rest of us! There was no thought that he was a stranger in our midst, because women are just so darned inclusive! We don't care if the people who want to join us are men or women.

Some of you might say that at some deeper level all the women at the table might have felt my SO's female energy, but honestly that's not it. Any one of the men in the basement could have joined us and the conversation and all around glee would have been just the same!

Please don't take any of this as any form of criticism. Many of you know me, I'm just trying to get down to basics.

I appreciate those of you who will share your thoughts about this, because it does puzzle me that you feel you are treated differently when you wear certain clothes (except men flirting with you), ... although I do understand wearing the clothes to feel feminine and I do support this. :hugs:

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Sometimes its hard to get! Well I've noticed that if I'm browsing for women's clothes in a department store as a guy, the other women in the section just basically ignore me and move around me etc.

When I'm dressed full femme, I get these nice smiles from other women as in the we are both enjoying ourselves and the choices at the store smiles. Also when looking at dresses and blouses, other gals comment on how nice a garment looks to me. So its kinda of a insider type of vibe you get from other women.

Also when walking around in a place like the mall, obviously sometimes I get looks from other women, could be one of several reasons including getting read, but when I look back at them they give me a friendly smile back. As a guy this typically wouldn't happen. So all of this feels nice...

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Originally Posted by ReineD

When you (a collective you, not just the people quoted) are dressed as women and talk to other women who respect your presentation (who don't slam you for it), you feel rather elated for being included in the fold, in the women's circle so to speak, even if they know that you are men presenting as women. I take it then, that being accepted as a woman is the ultimate goal and it is what causes the warmest internal fuzzies.

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

(... although this doesn't apply for those of you who want to be flirted with by men ... then you really need to present as a woman.)


.. Women don't just talk to each other, they talk to men too, honest

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Well in some settings[like after UU church service]people stand around,have a snack,and enjoy talking to others.I talk to anyone that wishes to converse...And I find that women love to include me in some of their discussions and accept me at face value. The men are divided it seems.Some want to engage in a gender discussion and others there want to ask me about my commercial boat projects.Honestly,I would not like to talk about "what I do" seven days a week! So,I gravitate toward the women's discussions[often in the kitchen..lol]. Last night while at the restaurant bar across the street,I had a guy[a NY lawyer with his wife] spill his guts to me while I ate my Salmon salad,to the point of tears! I don't believe he ever would have done that to me if I was in boy mode! lol

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

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That's not what I've been told. A few years ago I joined an adult ballet class at the local Arts Center. It was billed as for beginners and returning dancers. The class enrollment was six returning dancers, all females, and one beginner, me. I soon found out that returning to dance is like returning to bicycling -- it doesn't take long to get back up to speed. As a beginner, I was the obvious boat anchor. At the start of the third class I mentioned to one woman that it would be my last night as I felt I was holding everyone else up. At the break the most experienced dancer pulled me aside and implored that I stay. She was quite open in saying that the dynamics of the room change when there is a male dancer there. I stayed and in the end was glad I did. I later read the exact sentiments on a ballet forum -- ie, class dynamics are different when at least one male is present in a group of females.

So at best I might say "it depends." I think women will react differently depending on who the one man is in their midst. A type-A extrovert male will get a different reaction than an introvert male. A straight male will get a different reaction that a gay male. A married male will get a different reaction than a single male. But in all cases the dynamics, subtly or not-so, are different than if the group was all women.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

.. because as mentioned, if it was about being included in women's conversations, honestly you could accomplish this dressed as a male if you wanted to. I can't tell you how many intimate conversations I've had with various men over the course of my life. Women don't just talk to each other, they talk to men too, honest! :)

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Sorry Reine but you are applying far too much logic and common sense to this debate.

Not everyone likes to hear the truth because it takes away what the want to believe.

Its human nature.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on all of this.

It's true that we all experience things differently. I'm not a CD so I can't possibly know how you all feel. I can only say how I and other women that I know treat the men who enjoy being with us, the way that my SO was treated that night, and other times when there was just one man in a group of women. This is why it is difficult for me to understand why a person should be treated differently depending on the way they present.

But, in all fairness I tend to not see gendered differences between men and women so much, unless the personality types are extreme for example comparing the girliest girly-girl to the macho-est macho man. I've always had good male and female friends who were not at either end of the extremes, and who were all easy to talk to about anything.

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Originally Posted by Taylor186

I think women will react differently depending on who the one man is in their midst. A type-A extrovert male will get a different reaction than an introvert male. A straight male will get a different reaction that a gay male. A married male will get a different reaction than a single male. But in all cases the dynamics, subtly or not-so, are different than if the group was all women.

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Yes, I can see this. And there are also men who do feel so relaxed around women that the conversation flows just as it would if there was no man present. But other men I'm sure make some GGs feel as they must keep their guard up.

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Originally Posted by daarleane

Men whether we like it or not carry a physical presence of action while females may carry a presence of softness and love. … Men greet each other with a handshake, …. Females great each other by embracing. The rules are just different.

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Yes, I totally agree that you would feel differently among a group of men as you would among a group of women. I do too! :p

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Originally Posted by Rogina B

And I find that women love to include me in some of their discussions and accept me at face value. The men are divided it seems.Some want to engage in a gender discussion and others there want to ask me about my commercial boat projects.

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Right, I agree with this too … women are all inclusive to everyone who wants to be with them (CD, non-CD, gay, doesn't matter), whereas groups of men do seem to be more guarded with other men, GGs, and also CDs. When my SO and I go out, the women are so much nicer and more relaxed around us than the men are.

That's what I was saying before. We include everyone who wants to be with us, in other words, we don't look at all men as a threat or a predator. There are lots of men who are friendly and who don't give off those vibes, and so we can and do let our hair down when they're around. :)

This is amazing. My wife who is 100% women has not passed at least 3 times while out with a couple of CDs. We walked into a place that had a drag show and the MC told her she was doing a great job. Later he came back and asked if she was the real thing. One time she was sitting with me and one other CD in a restaurant and some guy came over to us and said we were not fooling anybody. He knew we were all guys! I still kid her about being clocked. She always looks like a very Fem woman. Nobody passes 100% LOL Good Luck Ruby