Like I said earlier, this thread has truely been a thought and fascinating thread, it's added a lot of discussion and knowledge! Thanks Kitty!
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Like I said earlier, this thread has truely been a thought and fascinating thread, it's added a lot of discussion and knowledge! Thanks Kitty!
See, here's a problem with me and Leah B (I love how that rhymes.) Anyway, he can't be satisfied with what happens in regards to progressing his CDing. We get him a wig and a bunch of clothes, but it doesn't make him happy because he doesn't 'get to' to out dressed up yet. It's hard for me to willingly do this sometimes if my effort and supportiveness doesn't make him any more happy. If he's still sad, it chips away at my motivation.
I like what someone said about just grinning and bearing it and making yourself happy. Leah says that he knows he should be content but that he can't bring himself to do it. The way I see it, if you really want something for yourself, then you can do it. That leads me to beleive that he actually doesn't WANT to be content. If he really wanted to be, then he could do it. Then again, maybe I just read too many Anthony Robbins motivational books.
Sobe
Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
:clap: Well articulated BBB.
I hope that we can role-model more emotionally open behaviour for males in our culture. Especially those of us who carry on and are seen as male by society. Because you are right, this world would be a much better place if males weren't dulled and hardened emotionally by social standards.
I totally reject the 'if you really want it enough' notion. It goes right next to the 'if you really love someone enough' notion as a romantic fairytale that destroys people. No amount of love will give me the capacity to pluck the moon from the sky and offer it as a tiny necklace to my girlfriend. It is fundamentally impossible to do some things. If something can't be done it can't be done for a reason. I may not be able to pluck the moon from the sky because it weighs millions of tons and is locked in orbit around the earth. Knowing that, I could still fulfill that desire by getting a gemstone that resembles the moon and giving it as the gift but it would only be symbolically the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG
If Leah B isn't happy then it will be for a reason. That reason may be external as well as internal and will undoubtedly have an internal component. The important question isn't yet what would make Leah B happy but why is Leah B not happy. Not just on the surface but deep down. Finding out why she is unfulfilled could give you both tremendous power and understanding. Are you working on the right parts of her CD'ing? Is it the social aspect she needs more now? Is there anything that would be enough or is the craving for more now as a way to try and cope with conflicting internal feelings, maybe even only tangentialy related to dressing? Or.. Is she trying to immerse herself as a way to force herself to accept this part of her?
When I first started to realise this wasn't going away aand that It wasn't something to be ashamed of (though I still felt emotionally ashamed and embarrassed) I started having intense desires to out myself in a big public way. I realised this was because if the 'cat was out of the bag' (bat out of the belfry?) then I could no longer deny this part of myself and I would not be able to fear being found out. Well I restrained myself which, at the time, was a very good thing. I instead just came out to my mum. That went well and gave me enough of what I needed to keep going slowly.
Sounds to me like the therapist and group meetings are exactly what she needs. Not to fix problems but as a vehicle on her journey of self discovery that will enable her to come to terms with her needs and emotions. There may be value in you attending similar that may smooth your own journey with this and to help you both keep pace with one another.
To everyone else, I'm glad my insights into the male condition have been insightful and helpful to everyone.
Amusingly to me they were a bit of a hindrance in one way too.. I realised these things when trying to come to terms with the actions of others (and occassionally my own) and so became determined to be me irrespective of notions of how males 'should be' however in my desire to be a whole male rather than a narrow one which while I feel that was a very good thing, I ignored and denied aspects of wanting to be very very feminine because I was trying too much to integrate my femininity into my maleness. I still am very happy being feminine in my maleness and I think that that is very important but I have had to accept that sometimes I need more than that, to look and feel female. Of course my femaleness isn't an extreme stereotype of femininity either and that, to me, is also important.
:hugs:
I can't just make myself happy, and I DO appreciate what you've given me. But there's more going on here, and we can talk about that off the boards if you want to.
Batty,
As a side note to your comments about socializing our boys to be dysfunctional. I have read some posts by CD's who have perpetuated this crime (if you will) onto their own boys. Do you think that some try to make their boys even more macho because they don't want them to grow up to be CD's or find out that their fathers are weak?
I can't tell you how much your words have invaded my brain. I think that it is the first time ever that I have read comments like yours. What a wonderful expirence for personal growth and higher knowledge. :love: Kitty
[SIZE="3"]Interesting case study. I have waited to post because I felt it doesn't really apply to our (wife and I) situation. My wife dressed me up early in our relationship so it has never been a secret. We go through phases when it's at the forefront, and phases when it is not. We toned it way back to just some underdressing after our oldest was born, but have recently kicked into high gear again. For reference of time our oldest is 12.[/SIZE]
I've seen what you are discribing many times in many relationships. How does a relationship survive when one person has an all consuming passion. This could be almost anything, sports, golf, hunting, dogs, their job, religion, their passion consumes them. They are single minded in the way they live their lives to the exclusion of anything that does not include their passion, including their partner. Their is no easy answer to this. Here the problem is CDing but it could just as easily be a SO bemoaning a workaholic spouse that gives all to climbing the corprate ladder. How do you get some one to see beyond their passion. I don't know.
Paraphrased from the OP:
moody, introverted, quick to anger, not talkative, human interaction replaced with surfing the internet, finds solo activities, no interest in movies or shopping, only reluctantly participates with family, friends, weddings, anniversaries etc.
Does anyone else see this and think depression? It looks like a classic list of symptoms to me. Having some good friends dealing with depression I've learned that sometimes people can get cause and effect mixed up. Sometimes depression is just caused by chemical imbalances, but we assume something stressful in our lives (work, money, wife, kids, CD'ing) is the cause.
Adding to Batty's post about mens emotional dysfunction, I think men feel they must solve their own problems without ever asking for help. "If only I could work through problem xyz, I would be happy. Then I could tell my wife/family/friends about it afterward." Unfortunately, since problem xyz is not truly the cause of the unhappiness, working at the problem, no matter how hard, will not bring happiness. The depression then continues untreated.
I think that seeing a therapist is a good idea to find out if depression is a factor. If it is, and it gets treated, it might make working on any other issues a lot easier.
It's something to think about, anyway.
-Christine
P.S. Keep in mind, I got a C- in Psych 101 :)
we have always strived to teach all of our children, both male and female to express their emotions and have I hope provided a safe enviornment to do that. That being said, our boys have assumed the general male characteristic of *holding it in*. I would assme this is social conditioning more than home influence. On the other hand, my twins played football and were team captains all four years of High School (one of them ranked 2nd in the State this year for receiving yards (brag over!))and still had the confidence to become cheerleaders and are considered two of the best in the entire State of California!Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
As mothers and fathers we have a lot to do with how our children, both female and male view themselves and others in the world. Providing a safe emotional enviornment in probably the first and most important thing we can do.
Louise.
Interesting point. I definatly think that might occur, but I think it would be more likely to come from one or more of:Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
a) the cd'er not wanting to be found out or in strong denial and so keeping up the macho male stereotype on the outside
b) the cd'er believing in the gender stereotypes and even polarising them further so their maleness is an extreme stereotype while their female side is equally extreme a stereotype so these both would be passed to children
c) fear that exposing children to crossdressing will cause some sort of harm to the children and so producing the same effect as (a) to 'protect' them
As to the latter, I haven't heard of any studies that suggest it causes harm. Has anyone any one way or the other? For many I suppose it could be fear of inflicting difference on the children which seems a strong fear for many. All the studies on children raised by gay parents that had any credibility that I've seen show no harm so I don't see how it would be harmful based on that but that view should defer to quality evidence.
It sounds like he wants a mother more than he wants a wife. Just saying. I find myself falling into the same patterns sometimes. Put this together with the forced feminization fantasy common to crossdressers, and you can see why it comes on especially strong. My advice would be to force him to ask for what he wants. Don't respond to passive aggressive behavior. That way, he will both have to admit to himself that he wants it (bringing him out of his own closet) and at the same time admit to himself that he is demanding it of you, and he will see what effort you are putting into it.
Also, my own relationship got a lot better when my long time gf started acting like she was into it. I know deep down she'd rather not be into it, because of homophobia more than anything I think, and she herself can't even stand dressing girly, preferring jeans and big t-shirts and little to no makeup. (She also dislikes lingerie, satin, lace, all the stuff I adore, and wears basic cotton panties.) But she pretends she likes to buy me stuff and do girly things with me, pointing out things in girly magazines, pointing to outfits, telling me fantasy stories, etc. She is a good actor, and my suspension of disbelief works well enough that I feel my needs are met. This works for both of us I think, at least for now. I think a big motivation for her may be that sex is a flop otherwise, and she knows it makes me feel really bad when she's horny and nothing is happening for me, so she does her best to help me perform, so I feel better about myself, and she is satisfied in the end.
*NODS* ~ Your comment puts it all into perspective. Both the CD'er and the SO need to do each of those things and sometimes one of those might be more necessary than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeronicaKate
If we are talking about men in general then the answer is no, the emotional dysfunction, or as I like to call it the emotional lobotomy, of boys' upbringing is so deeply ingrained that it is extremly difficult to dislodge. Also men and women alike think the emotionally challenged male is the "natural" way men are so there is no reason to change the status quo. If you believe things are the way they are, then why fix something which is not broken. Men will not change this pattern because they do not recognize there is a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
Mothers and fathers usually want their boys to grow up into "real" men, natural leaders, confident, driven, successful, desirable by women. Raising boys to be emotionally sensitive is the exceptional to the rule and will often make the boy a social outcast. Similarly women, especially in their younger years, tend to seek masculine boyfriends, so young men learn the more they play into the masculine role, the more successful they will be with the opposite sex. Being emotional sensitive is usually a big handicap to a male in all parts of his life - he will typically have a low reputation, fewer friends, less successful career, less successful with the girls etc so the temptation to withhold his emotions and project a masculine personality to get ahead will be strong.
The only groups of men who recognize the problem and who may attempt to reverse this emotional lobotomy are gays and transgendered. But cds themselves are often focussed on the crossdressing as an activity, as a source of pleasure and relaxation so many miss the bigger picture.
Lets say you have an 18 year old son who wants to learn to drive. You give him the keys to a car but tell him that he can only drive it up and down the driveway. Naturally he wants to drive it around the streets, he wants to explore, he wants to make use of his new skills to do what everyone is allowed to do - the freedom to drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG
Do you think your son would be happy with this limitation? You may have what you consider justifiable reasons why you are not prepared to allow him to drive around the streets but holding back someone else's needs and desires is guaranteed to cause fustration and dissatisfaction.
Limiting someone else's freedom because of your own internal issues is not likely to earn you kudos points. Your fears and concerns are being used to hold back the flowering of Leah's feminine personality.
Leah is basically a female adolescent who wants to grow up into adulthood. And while there is good reason go progress step by step so that no rash behavioir is developed, how many adolescents do you know who are happy with limited freedoms? The problem of course is that Leah is also an adult male with adult responsibilities and adult freedoms.
I guess what I am saying is if Leah acknowledges your issues and concerns and is living by your rules then you should acknowledge that you are limiting her freedom and should not expect her to be happy until she gets total freedom and you trust her to be responsible in her actions and behavior and let go of your issues.
I agree that one should acknowledge that you are in a way limiting Leah's freedom but on the other hand Leah needs to acknowledge that this is his "thing" and that Sobe will naturally be less than enthusiastic about frequent participation. This is where Carin's comments will come in handy. Both parties need to take responsibility for their own actions and feelings. Many times, in my own situation as well, the CD places a lot of responsibility on the spouses participation. When the spouse fails to live up to the CD's expectation then they accuse the spouse of being unaccepting when it is really a case of lack of interest. :hugs:KittyQuote:
Originally Posted by Satrana
It always amuses me when people, myself included, fail to see the similarities in our differences.
The Cd'er feels upset because the SO isn't participating enough or excited enough in crossdressing activities and takes this as a rejection of an important part of their life/self and further as a rejection of them.
The SO feels upset because the CD'er isn't participating enough or excited enough in non-crossdressing activities and takes this as a rejection of an important part of their life/self and further as a rejection of them.
Look how many words change in those sentances :devil:
The differences are minimal. The differences in the reactions are small, significant but still not all that important. The really important bit is that each is experiencing almost exactly the same thing on opposite sides of the fence and each seems to be mystified by the others reactions and in all probability ascribing all sorts of motivations and explanations from their own projected fears. Both are probably accusing the other of selfishness, a lack of understanding and think that the degree of participation that they are performing and acceptance that they are showing is more, or more important, than the others when actually they are each uniquely situated to understand the others feelings except that they are each unable to see past the issue in the middle.
Well, crossdressing is considered a special request by any GG who isn't into it. Above and beyond the call of duty. Like watching football or golf or Nascar. PRoblem is most guys aren't turned on by football or golf or Nascar but most CDs are turned on by crossdressing. So the spouse's involvement level then becomes related to the sexual health of the relationship. Don't know how many times I heard "Why can't you just be a MAN?" I am a man in case you didn't notice... doing all the manly things expected of me. And she did notice, eventually, that I wasn't planning to compete with her as a woman, that the manly duties would still be taken care of no matter how I looked or felt. Even if I am dressed in women's clothes and feeling bi and talking about piercings and cosmetic surgery and hair removal and T blockers, the manly duties are still taken care of. I think that is a huge security blanket to a GG when they realize that the male role and responsibilities in the relationship will always be taken care of even if their husband doesn't necessarily FEEL much like a man.
I also think the relationship improves when partners seek out ways in which they can indulge each other, instead of saying 'eww' and refusing to participate in things that they aren't interested in. Of course if one or the other does something that's absolutely disgusting to the SO, it's time to rethink the relationship.
Yup, crossdressing is often tackled by couples by reverting to the standard man-woman trench warfare system, both sides lobbing grenades at each other from their fortified bunkers, both believing their issues are more important than their partners and being annoyed why the other does not acknowledge this fact and surrender.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
The first thing which happens in a power struggle is that respect for each other disappears, empathy vanishes, fustration sets in and grand stories of ulterior motives are written. And once this has started it can be a deep rut to climb out of. What is needed is for both parties to set aside their combative stances and have a heart-to-heart and approach the topic with love, compassion and understanding. Hugs and reassurances are required not incriminations.
I agree Renee but also keep in mind that crossdressing is not as socially acceptable as nascar or football and the wife is void of the same sympathies when she tells people how isolated and lonly she feels because her hubby is so into crossdressing and doesn't make her feel loved anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by renee99
I also agree with the importance in a healty sexual life crossdressing plays for the CD'er. You mentioned the "feeling bi" part and my neck hair goes up a little. This is the number one thing that spouses are afraid of. That their man will want to find sexual gratification from other men or tg's. The CD needs to reassure the SO that that will not happen. I think this is the number one confusion for me personally. I know that my hubby is heterosexual but he has read stories about men forcing other men to dress and engage in sexual acts.
0n one level I understand that it is fantasy and a lack of sexual material involving hetero CD couples. But on the other hand I have no personal reference within myself to really understand why someone would want to do that.
I watched a talk show the other day that had on hetero couples where the roles were reversed. The husbands were more feminine in their likes and dislikes and the women did all of the dirty work. One hubby spends lots of time in front of the mirror and places great care with his male look. (side note he was an example of how much variety in mens clothes there is. lots of colors and materials but made for men) His wife's complaints could have come right out of a CD wifes mouth. They were one and the same. I think this pretty much proves your points Batty and Satrana.
We all need to think beyond the act of crossdressing and address the behavior that illicits the negative response. This should be true for both partners. Then we could get on about having the relationships we should be having. Ones with mutual respect and an abundance of love. Oh but how to get there............................................. ... ? :love:Kitty
Great discussion everyone.
Bi feelings have more to do with desires of feeling penetrated or feeling submissive and desirable, as the sex object, than they do actually desiring a relationship with a man. A man is just the most convenient thing that can make a CD feel like a woman. (I think that the CD having feelings of wanting to be the sex object is what gives some SOs a feeling that they are being competed with. Sounds to me like an opportunity for some play if the SO could get over her insecurity.)
It is possible for a CD's bi feelings to be fulfilled within a hetero relationship if the partner is open minded about it and obviously if there's enough give and take in the relationship to warrant doing what a straight wife would consider oddball things in the bedroom, i.e. things lesbians would enjoy.
Of course there are CDs for whom it's just not enough that their wife is willing to take a dominant role in bed. If this is the case, they had better damn well decide what they really want and make sure their wife is in on the arrangement, like Richard (Alice) Novic did. Cheating, or even exploring the idea of cheating, is just another deceptive, evasive, passive aggressive behavior and I believe it should seriously call the relationship into question. If the CD feels he is left with no option but to cheat in order to get what he wants, he's in the wrong relationship.
I would also suggest that someone like your husband who displays compulsive and depressive behavior at the same thing seriously needs to talk to someone. First he needs to figure out if his CDing is just acting out on a personality disorder that he needs to address separately.
He also needs to figure out if he is a CD or a TG and you need to be in on the answer. The reason I think he might be unsure is because it is very tempting to sneak around and be evasive when a CD is trying to figure this out, for many reasons. It will benefit both of you if he can figure it out sooner rather than later, so you can get on with your lives and figure out if you are in each other's future.
[SIZE="3"]My wife and I are on that same page and it's great!![/SIZE]
The trouble with determining things quickly is that someone could still be in a state of self-denial without realising it and sometimes self exploration just takes time. Besides, a relationship needs to include room for change and growth. People aren't static things and while there might be added security if they were, trying to insist people don't change or grow over time just makes the relationship stiffling and suffocating. Of course the thought of change, especially change as drastic as someone who thought they were a CD and discovers they are TS can be very scary to some. There have also been at least a few CD's who think they are TS because of the 'must be one or the other' view of gender, some have even gone as far as surgery before discovering there mistake.
Still, many (most?) TS know they are from a very early age. Talking to a proffessional psychologist especially with some experience in the field could help him discover for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by renee99
I agree and most wives would be willing to explore being "dominant" in the bedroom. The only thing is that a lot of women have seen what their acceptance causes in the CD, the dreaded "pink fog". Then this fear is applied to trying things in the bedroom. I certainly don't want to be dominant in the bedroom all of the time, so one fears that will be the case if satifying the "bi" fantasies are intertained. Most people don't want a steady diet of one thing. I love variety but the "pink fog" limits variety in the relationship.
Not letting your spouse in on your true self and secretly acting it out can have devistating consequences for the unsuspecting spouse. I have seen it happen. Wife goes to the doctor cause she can't shake the "flu" and finds out she is not only HIV pos but she has such a low T-cell count that the "flu" that she has is a life threatening rare or terminal illness that medication will not take care of. Putting someone in this kind of harm is illegal and could and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. IMHO.
Depression and personality disorders are separate issues. Gender identity can be a part of those disorders. for example borderline personality disorder can have a gender confusion component because of a lack of core personality. One does need to address these issues. The sad part is that sometimes other people can see the problem but the one afflicted. Getting someone to address their issues is almost impossible if they don't think they have any. If that person refuses to see the problem (like batty said, you can't fix something without acknowledging what is broken) then one has to make some tuff personal decisions on wether or not to stay and work it out. This is very a very tough decision to make because every relationship has an up side and we tend to cling to that up side as proof that things could work out.
:love: Kitty
Hi Kittypw GG,
I guess i am in the minorty, I have had sex with a couple of men an found that I don't like it better, I like being with women. Sex is an animal instink we all have the same drive. I have found that the drive is the same for me anyway. My girl friend an I reverse role at times durning the love makeing. For us we love one another an the act gives you the same felling wether male or female. Is a soul male or female , unlike the body that we can't control. To find a mate that accepts you no matter how you appear is what I think all of us are looking for. I am very much at ease when I dress in MY female cloths an my girl friend knows it an accepts it. She at times perfers me as her girl friend an I think that is a key that a lot of CDs miss. When in my female mode I am her best girl friend, an as you all know a girl friend you can tell all too. What better than a Cd,she/male or what ever role we want to be know as it can only make the relationship better. For me I have what I hope will be a long an great relationship with a very great women that I have learned to love all ways .
Josephine
Depression can exascerbate things on either side. It and personality disorders are all rather common and with their own sets of problems which would have a profound effect on all aspects of life, this included. Determining its effects on an individuals gender identity/expression is definately the realm of proper medical professionals, (I've been checked, I just have anxiety issues from repressing my dressing).Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
As for people failing to see problems, well as long as people refuse to doubt, refuse contrary evidence, refuse to acknowledge appropriate expertise and instead have blind faith in there own view/judgement then their is no hope of convincing them. I have literally placed incontrovertable proof once under the nose of someone and still had them ignore it, worse than the priest who would not look through Gallileo's telescope.
Still sometimes, in their own time, even these people can come round.
As for the pink fog, sure that is a definate difficulty. Like a starving man who binges till they are sick once good food is found we can be catapulted into a frenzy of over indulgence and it's not easy to restrain. Still with time and understanding a comfortable equilibrium might be reached.
As for dominance in the bedroom, I'm sure it's like any other activity there. Monotony is well, monotonous. Each persons desires and needs have to be considered, variety is important and communication is again paramount. It's just another bedroom thing like all the other possible bedroom things and again like the other issues in the relationship the same rules apply regardless.
Of course femininity need not neccessarily be submissive.
Kitty
I think you hit the nail on the head, I tend to fall into that area,
I also know that I do. I been that way for as long as I can remember,
been with my current wife 8 years, she has only known about my desires to dress for close to a year. she has complained many time about my lack of wanting to go out an get involved with others.
she goes to church an does events for them an has ask me on many occassions if I would go along, Im not much for meeting new people because
the way I see it the less friends I have the less I can get hurt, if they find out. I associate with people I work with but I do not befriend them.
I go to work an come home I dont like to travel to much, or leave the house very often cause I feel safe here. I have never been much of a people person
I get along with people ok, just dont like to get involved with them.
My wife makes friends with everyone, me Im very selective when befriending someone.
Dont get me wrong if someone needs a shoulder to cry on or an ear to listen I can be there for them,
Im not sure how I can come to a comman ground on this with my wife, or if I ever will.
I dont think for myself that being a cd has much bearing on the fact that I live like a Hermit,sence like I said Ive been suclusive most of my life.
but might have to some degree an involvment in it.
Ivey
Josephine,
So very happy for you dear. :love: We all want what you have.
Batty,
You are so right, feminity need not be submissive. All women have a male component its magnitude varies within individuals. It is just getting to a comprimise and I am as guily of struggeling to comprimise as any.
Just this morning I had to use my hubby's lap top. I clicked on fav's cause I saved the web site previously that I wanted to go to there. I found all kinds of web sites on my hubby's favs that were for CD's, shopping, stories chatting etc. The normal stuff that comes along with a CD support site. I instantly became uncomfortable and started to interogate my hubby. He became angry that I was snooping. Since I have been having this dialoge in this post I have tried to think a new way. I think what I was feeling was a lack of trust and it is fear based. I said to my hubby that I will have faith that he is trustworthy and not get upset about what sites he is visiting. There are lots of "tag-a-long" things that come with tg sites that could make a SO nerveous but that does not mean that he is engaging in those things.
I think I might have made a positive step. We did not have a huge argument and he denies that he is angry. What did I tell you, most of my dislike of his crossdressing is based in fear. I find crossdressing very sexy at times and I concider myself mostly accepting. Imagine what a SO feels when they are hit with this information by accident? WOW no wonder we struggle so.
:hugs: Kitty
There is a huge thread on precisely this topic, in the MHB boards, under Sex & Sensibility titled "the sexuality issue". I would link to it but you have to be registered to read it. The discussion centers around how important it is in a CD relationship for both partners to discard stereotypes of sex and just get over themselves and be willing to please the other. That includes the CD who can't get his motor running, as one poster replied, he's got five digits and two hands for a reason. It also includes those who insist that feminine=bottom and masculine=top, or dominant=top and submissive=bottom, etc. Kind of goes into the orthogonality of all those concepts.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Ivey, self protection is a good thing but you are in a situation that requires your participation. If you explain your fears to your wife and try to be a little more social I am sure she will be very pleased and see the effort you are making for her. If you don't communicate how you feel she has no other recourse but to make up what she THINKS you are trying to convey by your lack of participation in a social life. She may think you are too indulgent in the crossdressing, or accuse you of being passive aggressive and punishing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivy Dawn
Maybe you should talk to a professional about your fears so that you can work towards minimizing them. Fear is a prision and keeps you from having a good and meaningful life. Take care :hugs:Kitty
Hi Kitty,
Again I will put my 3 cents in. I think you are a very brave young women to get out here to learn about what your husband is into there should be more like you. I hope your husband is reading all this advice that us girls are giving you. I for one am very inpressed with all the different takes . Good luck will continue to read an learn
Josephine
As you have said, it is your fear that is making you feel uncomfortable. The best way to catch this is to compare how you would react if your husband was a golfer and you found golfing sites on his favorite list. If the crossdressing itself is not a problem then stop making it the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
The basic idea here is your negative view of crossdressing and your insecurities which in turn drives your behavior towards your husband's crossdressing. Although you say you find CDing sexy, you are fearful of its consequences and it is this fear which presently dominates your attitude.
I think relationships in general take a turn for the worse when one spouse stops seeing the positive in their partner. If you love your partner and wish to remain together then this can only be achieved by staying positive, optimistic and trusting your partner. A big part of maintaining relationships is mindset and staying upbeat and reminding yourself why your love your partner. Crossdressing does not have to be a problem if you approach it with the right mindset.
I am happy to hear that you are trying a new approach, I hope this really pays dividends. Of course your hubby should also respond in kind by changing his own mindset to be less defensive and to let you into his thoughts and emotions without anger.
And after all, even though you didn't intend to look at the things he had placed in the favourites list, from the moment you started paying more than a moments attention to them and especfially when you started to interrogate your husband you were snooping. I'd be angry in that situation too (and was when I have been). That he got over that indignity to his privacy when you changed tack and said you'd trust him was very good of him and helped you both resolve the situation.
Now that you have identified a big source of problem for you, your fears, the next step is to overcome those fears. For some just the realisation that the fear is the cause can be enough for the fear to evaporate, for others it's not so easy. So how best to overcome those fears?
These words should be applied to the CD as well. This is another problem with many CD relationships where the wife is struggeling to accept. The anger the CD feels towards the spouse because they feel controlled and are impatient because they want the acceptance and participation now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrana
When the CD gets angry at the spouse it starts to seem like that is all they want from the spouse. Some CD's never come up with any other activity that they want to do with the spouse. Over time the spouse starts to feel like their only purpose is to make the CD feel ok with everything and to help him obtain clothes so that he won't be embarassed. It becomes very one sided and I myself have felt sort of "used" if you will. Sort of like pretending you are a gay man's girlfriend so that he looks "normal" in the eyes of the general public or to his family. I have felt this way at times, like I am only good for something as long as it involves crossdressing and making him feel ok with it.
Sometimes it is exhausting for a spouse to constantly keep reassuring the CD that they are ok and not a weirdo for wanting to dress like a girl. This is exactly why I preach self acceptance. Through self acceptance you find peace of mind and confidence. You are less needy of your spouse and can move towards an equal relationship and mutual satisfaction. It is true that each partner needs to take responsibility for their own actions. :hugs: Kitty
There are a lot of seems and feel like statements there, and the way something seems isn't necessarily the way it is. Part of responsibility is being responsible for your own emotional reactions, and also to challenge the validity of the way things seem to see if that is the way they actually are. Perception after all is always flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
Even more importantly, while it is understandable that the CD might be looking for some validation and support from their SO if it's getting to the point of constant reassurance there is something wrong. The SO is not the CD's therapist after all. If the CD's issues with their dressing are so strong that they need constant reassurance it sounds like time to go to a qualified proffessional. If the CD only wants to participate in dressing activities maybe they want to dress full-time? Or... maybe they are focusing on dressing as a way to try and cope with a deep-seated fear and lack of self-acceptance.. it's hard to avoid it when you are in a skirt.
Another possibility is that the acceptance the CD is getting may feel/seem half-hearted or tentative to them. They might also have trouble believing it's real... which isn't surprising if the CD can't accept themselves. Mind you, self acceptance isn't easy.
The first paragraph of your thread describe me to a tee. The only problem is that my SO ( wife) would never tolerate my CDing. I am depressed most of the time. I have no friends. My only contacts are immediate family, ( my wife and her family). I really do not understand why we stayed married. My wife is on holiday for 3 weeks ( until the 29th) and I have come out of the closet , just a little. Bought a few things, put some make up on. Today I am going to buy a wig and a camera. I know it's a temporary thing until she comes back. I have to do something. I can't go on denying what I am. Actually, a spring chicken, I am not. . .haha
How do you know if your wife would never tolerate your CD'ing. There are a few wives that were dead set against it to start and now it it totally a different story. Check out the posts of Sandra GG for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by classygloves
If you fee bad about who and what you are then your body language probably reflects that and people will respond to you the way you feel about yourself. If you work on accepting this part of you and keep it real and balanced then what choice does a spouse have if they want to stay with you. The balance and reality part make it possible to stay. If she can't tolerate seeing you "dressed" then there are ways to work that out as well as many here do.
One of the points that I have been trying to make in this thread is that wives may be more accepting than they seem but bad communication is often at fault for the hurt feelings and non acceptance, crossdressing just gets the blame.
Batty makes a good point, and I should plaster it all over the house. THINK before you assume. ASK for clarification before you jump to anger. Often times you will find something very different behind the supossed non acceptance. (again these words apply to both partners)
Best wishes Classy, find out who you are and give yourself the respect you deserve. Your wife will fall in line and if she doesn't then maybe she is not the right one for you. Give it a lot of time though and be patient with not just her but with yoursef. Forgive yourself for your mistakes but remember that the desire to crossdress is something that is hardwired in your brain probably from birth and you did not make that happen nor do you have control wether or not that desire exists. What you do have control over is your behavior and how you think and feel about yourself. Remember the law of attraction.
:love: Kitty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrana
I understand what you are saying Satrana but your golf example is sort of flawed. When you go to golfing sites you don't find the sexual component, other golfers may be trying to pick eachother up for sexual encounters but it usually isn't a part of the web site. The sexual component triggers emotions and questions in the spouse. Are you gay? Do you want to be a women and then have sex with men? etc. Many women have been cheated on and most fear that it will happen so the sexual component triggers a different set of fears. That is what I was trying to get to when I was looking at my hubby's fav's list. TG web sites have lots of components and us wives need to trust that our hubbies will be faithful and not just assume they are taking part in that sexual component. Some husbands are just not faithful so a little suspicion is necessary for self preservation but it is a fine line and sometimes that line is crossed.
I totally agree with almost everything that you said. This dialogue is helping me a great deal. I hope that others find some wisdom and a new way as well.
:love: Kitty
Hmm, I guess I visit different golf sites:Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
http://bl.net/forwards/bedgolf.html
:-)
I think what you are relating to is men in general we dont want to go out socialising on others terms
As for the expresing the feelings thing dont go there
Hi Kitty,
Still at it I see , you are now on a roller coster damd if you do dam if you don't. I still have not seen anything from your hubbie, what dose he think of all that is going on about your post . Like I said before I hope he is reading all of your replys. I bet you are getting a lot of private msg too.
Josephine
Absolutely, all partnerships need equal involvement and effort from both parties. It is clear from your descriptions that your husband has much work to do himself to steer your relationship to calmer waters.Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
That is not a good sign, if his own self acceptance is lacking the this will make everything more difficult. You have explained previously how much you were involved and assisted in his crossdressing, I think that might have backfired as he has come to rely on you too much as a safety blanket. I would suggest that you consider withdrawing from all activities which assist him from confronting his own fears and shame. Let him go out by himself, let him buy his own clothes, let him dress himself and apply his own makeup etc. Treat his crossdressing as a normal thing, don't emphasize it as anything special.Quote:
It becomes very one sided and I myself have felt sort of "used" if you will. Sort of like pretending you are a gay man's girlfriend so that he looks "normal" in the eyes of the general public or to his family.
He needs to reach a point where he understands that crossdressing is a means of self expression and is no different from when he is dressing en drab. It is just another set of clothes, a uniform which aids him to connect to his feminine side. Ultimately that is all crossdressing is, a tool to overcome social gender conditioning and to allow him to express his whole personality. Ideally the two sides of his personality will merge and he will feel comfortable accessing his feminine emotions without the necessity of emulating a woman.
Agreed, it is not perfect because crossdressing is more than a hobby and does have other components as you say. But, my point was not to find an exact anology but to point out that you should aim to think about crossdressing as if it were golf. In other words, learn to normalize your views of crossdressing and stop thinking of it as a special deal (the same advice to CDs as well)Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
Think of this - if he was a golfer and you saw the golf links, would your thoughts be - "these golf sites have forums, and there a women golfers, is my hubby using these golf sites to chat to women to arrange dates". In truth there are millions of sexual images everywhere and infinite opportunities for any man to cheat on his spouse if that is what he wants to do. Cheating has got nothing to do with crossdressing, just as it has got nothing to do with golf either.
I know there are sexual issues attached to crossdressing and you can see these for yourself, but crossdressing does not in any way encourage cheating by itself. IMHO, crossdressers are less likely to cheat than non-CD men because our feelings and emotions towards women and ourselves are different. Ask your husband about this - what does he want from the relationship?, how does he view women? does he want to experiment with men?
This all goes back to mindset. If your husband has done nothing to suggest that he is or wants to cheat on you, then you need to cast your fear aside and trust and believe in him. Stay positive and avoid negativity if there is no basis to be suspicious in his actions in the real world, not the fantasy world of the internet.
Love and trust are partially based on blind faith. If you try to remove that blind faith by always being suspicious and checking, then you lose the love and trust.:2c:
I am not sure what you mean by being "still at it"? I hope to be "still at it" until I find a balance for myself with the crossdressing. I have been trying to keep things broad so that I can help others in the process. In case you didn't notice some gg's have given up discussing issues about their hubby's crossdressing in the mtf forum because of the ridicule that they get. I did not want this to be a debate aobut my personal relationship. In defense of my hubby, there are two sides to every story and I am sure if he were more like me he would be telling somewhat of a different story, his slant on the issues concerning SO's acceptance or lack of. There are always two sides to every story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josephine 1941
It doesn't help to bash the CD when the SO complains about issues with the crossdressing. Bashing nor making my hubby look bad was NOT my purpose in wanting to have this discussion. These are REAL concerns that gg's have from the eyes of a gg. I was looking for the perspective of REAL CD's so that I might be enlightened and find a better comfort level with crossdressing and all that it entails.
Rollercoaster? Damn right it feels like a rollercoaster, just ask any gg who is not afraid of answering honestly.
I thank everyone who participated in a very enlightening conversation about gg concerns. Especially Batty and Satrana. Your words gave me food for thought and helped me grow in my thinking.
I would still like to read more thoughts on how gg's can gain balance and achieve better communication with their seemingly reclusive and quiet CD hubbies if anyone wants to contribute, but lets not bash anyone ok? Nobody is helped by being bashed or put down and isn't helping the whole purpose of this forum?
:love: Kitty
Kitty, I too am much of what you described as the CDer except - When we were married 41 years ago I pledged to give 90% to my SO and expect only 10% in return. She too behaves the same way, that's how we got to 41 years. The CD issue has come and gone a few times but she just can't be involved with it so I don't make an issue out of it. When you say you love someone it is a lifelong commitment where you want what's best for that person and you want them to be as happy as they can be. I sympathize with all GG's who are "expected" to deal with this because it just isn't possible for some. I sympathize with those CDer's who don't understand how to maintain a true relationship with their SO given their predispostion. It's not about blind acceptance by both and it's not about giving in totally to the wishes of the other. It's a squiggly path to navigate but with mutual love and trust it can be done and both will have a loving relationship with each other.
Thank you Andi,Quote:
Originally Posted by AndiGirl
What a beautiful testiment to your love and relationship. :love: Kitty
Hi Kitty,
I am sorry if it seamed like I was bashing, I guess I am looking for input. My girl friend has accepted me from day One. Lucky I guess but she is a New York girl an lived in Manhatten, had many friend gay Cds les so she was exposed to my life style an more so with us it was no big deal. GGs in my mind are confused as why a man would like to dress, I guess looking at GGs in so many men cloths we are too. Being gay, Bi, or straight is each person own prefrance, but I do agree that if you have a husband or wife they need to know.
Good questions, insightful...YES, complicated...perhaps for some yes, but not for me and my wife. Common ground between us has always been there, just a different, but much closer perspective...
Let me say that due to work constraints my wife indeed makes most plans, but she always runs them by me...In most cases we are both in agreement and carry them out to full enjoyment...
My wife is a real trooper...while at first she had a tough time, as most do I'm sure in coping with my dressing, the closeness and love never left...If any thing it made us stronger and closer...and continues to grow
While I'm not sure this is really the aswer one would expect, I have found that keeping an even keel between Marcie, myself and my wife has been rather easy. For us its a matter of sharing and being open and honest...
Perhaps the best ways to understand it all is to read a book authored by John Wooden, the coach of UCLA fame...Wooden on Leadership...This book while telling stories about his times of being a coach also stresses what he required of his players...It provides his pyramid of success, discussing how exactly to apply it to your life...Both I and my wife have invested the five to six hours required to read it and it has provided a perspective for both of us that we were aware of, but with a much clearer view and how to further strengthen our love, respect, resolve, and trust for each other...Well worth the 24.95, the price of the book...
I hope this is the type of answer you were looking for, perhaps a bit redundent, but it is, has, and is still working for us...:happy:
An idea for an exercise for improving communication between a Cder and an SO.
'Girl Talk'
If the SO can handle this excersise with the CDer dressed it could very much help. The SO should suggest that a good way for the CD to explore their femme self would be to open up their emotional side and have a girl to girl talk. Each gets to ask a question about something from the others life but must answer the same question themselves. These things should start light and get slowly more deep, from things like the favourite pet-related memory to first experience with the grief of death. Lots of 'how did you cope with that/react with that?' questions are encouraged.
Some iportant rules:
1, If a question is answered that you asked then you must give your own answer
2. Either can pass a question the other has asked and neither then answers the question
3. Either can stop the game at any time
4. Absolutely no questions relating to the current relationship or current crossdressing (perhaps all crossdressing?) are allowed - this exercise is to free up the rest of communication, emotional understanding and general understanding of each other.
5. Absolutely no judgement is allowed! These are deep emotional confessions, not an opertunity to hold court.
What does everyone think of the idea?
Marcie, I love autobiographies and will have to pick up a copy. Sometimes a little inspiration is all one needs.
Batty, Love the new avatar dear. Very, cute. :happy:
I had my hubby read your reply and he agreed to try it. :D I think this might start things off. I would maybe add to your rules list that what ever is revieled during these communication sessions can not be used against the other in the heat of an argument.
Do you think that communication might be easier because he would not be wearing the "uniform" of his man self? I mean, sort of like talking in the dark, it is just easier. If this is the case then one needs to eventually work on being a better communicator in the man "uniform" as well.
Good suggestions, I will let you know how it goes. Since we have a graduation comming up, there won't be much time till Sunday. Sounds like a nice activity to relax with and start that process. :hugs: Kitty