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I think sometimes male-to-female crossdressers can, in fact, be insulting. I work very hard to make sure I look attractive and confident when en femme, which is to say I want to be respectful of myself. As a result, I feel I am respectful towards women.
From my experiences, from all I've seen, women seem to LOVE us. I have both a GG friend and a SO GF (somewhat) friend, and both are fascinated with me and my cross-dressing friends. When me and my SISTERS groups go out, we always get girls who want to have their picture taken with us, or dance with us.
Like I said they love us, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we are men who WANT to understand what they go through.
Think of it. A majority of women have husbands, SOs, or BF, who pay little attention to them and never do a thing to try and understand them when they present themselves as women.
We want to go shopping with them.
What women wouldn't want a husband like that.
Thanks to everyone who has responded to my original post. I've really enjoyed reading your responses. I really hope we hear from more genetic women, too. While I don't view my crossdressing as a mockery or insult to women, my wife does on at least some level. It's instructive to hear other peoples' take on this topic and helps my understanding of where my wife is coming from.
Thanks again and I look forward to more of your thoughtful responses.
Sigh....
I really am saddened that this thread has continued on so. Let's try a little perspective...
"Youth is wasted on the young"
Many crossdressers attitudes towards women not dressing the way they themselves would like to is no better nor worse than that statement.
"Femininity is wasted on the feminine"
Look at that sentence. It's all a matter of longing for what others have. Plenty of women don't care about the attributes and/or advantages that they have that I might desire. They take them for granted or they just don't put a lot of personal value on them. And fair enough too.
Kids at the skatepark a decade ago feeling insulted that some guys in their 20's and 30's turn up in baggy pants and with boards are no different from women upset because some CD has dressed up in womens clothes. Now if those older guys are not yet very good at skating or look less suited to the clothes the kids are more likely to be insulted and the same is true of women if the CD is less good at what they are doing or less well suited to it. And if the older skaters are mixing fashion that is 'not the done thing' amongst younger skaters well that's even more likey to be insulting.. and again if the CD goes against current fashion...
Some people who are goths year-round get upset with people who dress like that only for weekends or special occasions or halloween. Those who find goth a deep personal culture might get awefully upset with those who treat it as just a passing fashion. Likewise people who like dressing that way on halloween might feel it dreadfully inappropriate for the goth to dress that way on any other day. Or they might think it's ok for clubbing but not for going to the supermarket or to church.
You can see the same pattern again and again.
It's not a deliberate parody for goodness sake, it's just personal expression. At best this is serious emotional immaturity!
And there is a darker side to this...
Those who are physically more masculine looking are more likely to be considered 'insulting'. Those who are more fantasy or fetishistic in their dress again more likely to be 'insulting'. Those who aren't just breaking gender roles but also age roles. Those who don't try and pass. Those who are more androgynous. Those who co-opt negative stereotypes and turn them into affirmatative archetypes.. all are more likely to be considered 'insulting'.
So in this we are dancing around, and sometimes right over, the edge of sexism, ageism, ablism (in that someone born less able to pass for whatever reason, is discriminated against) and downright transphobia!
Just defining women in a way to then be able to define what would be insulting to 'women' could itself be downright sexist.
Not all GG's would fit other GGs ideas of what it is to be female for goodness sake!
At best this could be emotional immaturity and ignorance, on the part of some of the CDs with their atitudes to what most commonly constitutes womanhood and femininity perhaps (the trouble is determining if they are reflecting and embodying sexist stereotypes or are in fact responding to powerful cultural archetypes, especially misunderstood sexual ones), but particularly on the part of those who feel personally insulted by another persons inability to meet their standards or represent their personal idea of being female.
At worst this can be downright disgustingly bigoted.
If an 80 year old man dresses in a manner more commonly assosiated with an 18 year old girl and someone takes offense... that person might need to take a long hard look at their own sexism and agism!
Many of us dress to feel good about ourselves. If wanting to feel better about oneself is selfish, then I admit, I am selfish.
The attitude that says crossdressing is insulting is like saying a christmas tree is insulting. There really is not fundamental reason behind it, but on some level, somewhere, someone finds an ornamented pine tree offensive. Same on this level, a man dressed as woman is offensive.
The thing is many of the crossdressers on this forum seem to exhibit many
female qualities. Many of us are:
nurturing
compassionate
empathetic
kind
helpful
emotional
These qualities can be learned, but more often than not they are innate to our selves. Then again, there are probably some crossdressers who do not exhibit these qualities. And yet, even again, I know many women who are completely the antithesis of the above mentioned list.
All of us, male and female alike, are all good people and want only the best for others. "For our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's future, and we are all mortal." If wanting to be a woman to make ourselves feel good about life is the way we show it, so be it. That is how I will proceed.
The concept that people should not be insulted or offended is honorable. Nevertheless, many people are. Recognizing this fact is a critical step when seeking a future of tolerance. I've said it before and I'll say it again - Individuality is an important component of our identity. Individualism is a religion of self and is ultimately destructive.
Put another way, the world ain't all about you. It's about you being part of the world.
I agree with Dee talbot and the other GG's who have commented on this topic, I especially agree with Dee on the subject of having sex with a man to feel like a woman, I do not see how a cder can truely feel like a woman by having sex with a man, I am mtf transgendered and I do not want to have sex with a man. I know I will never know 100% of what it is like feel like a woman, I love and emulate real GG's, they are truely wonderful human beings, and I hope I dont insult or degrade women and I am sorry if I do. I dress modestly, to me looking like a **** is not feminine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
I also agree that we should not say women who do not wear dresses and are not feminine, that is very hypocritical, we have no right to say that, because we are not wearing pants all the time, there is more to femininity than wearing dresses. There are women that look quite sexy in pants. Just because a woman is wearing pants and a shirt it does not make her less of a woman.
For me I wish I had a female body, I have alot of feminine behaviors, and feminine legs and thats it. sorry I am off topic on that last sentence.
I had an unfortunate encounter last week when I was at the 7-11 when a woman came in and was offended by the way I was dressed, she asked the cashier to call the police to have me arrested for impersonating a woman. she told the cashier that I was scary looking, the cashier told her no she was not going to call the police, and that I was not doing anything to hurt anybody, and that she trusts me. (the cashier and I have become good friends over the past few month's.) The next day the woman contacted the owner of the store and told him that I was mocking women and she wants me banned from the store, the owner asked the cashier if she has a problem with me coming in dressed as a woman, she told him it does not bother her. He told her that I was still welcome to come in the store and that it is not an issue with him. he told the cashier that some peaple are unhappy and are offended by everything. I am glad to have the cashier as a friend, she is a wonderful woman. I personally do not intend to mock women, and I am sorry that the woman feels that way. that was a tense moment that day when that woman wanted to call the police.
I 110% get her point and fully agree and I am a genetic female.Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaMarie
It is NOT an act of honoring women that men dress like women.
It is for the more superficial reasons you mention.
That is not wrong or evil but yes, I get her point.
I've tried starting discussions about this but most CD'ers don't want to look deeper than below the surface (or at least that's the message their reactions here have given me).
I am an understanding "GG"; however, I do get her point.
Kew's-2
Quote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
kewt, you've just touched upon my next "thinkin" question...and I would love to have this kind of discussion with you and pick your brain ;)
*hugs*
Zara
Lets face it. For every argument that could be applied to CDers being an insult to Women and womanhood, there is another that could be applied to CDers being an insult to Men and manhood.
Take defensiveness out of the equation. Who of us would do it as an affront to the opposite sex? Oh I do agree that for the most part we do not flatter women in terms of the success (and lack thereof) of our emulation. But not by design.
A woman who looks at crossdressing from her world may see lots of wrongs. A woman who can look at crossdressing from his world can surely see the personal challenges and turmoil that would drive someone to take this challenging path that must (and do) exist.
But Dee said it better.I missed the additional pages of this thread on first draft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
I don't want to hijack this thread. To suggest that I do this for superficial reasons tears me apart. I don't presume to know why I do this, but it is not superficial. I would love to discuss this (amicably) if you care to expound your thoughts in a new thread (or by pm).Quote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
I have to say that most of us here emulate woman as we do this because of admiration, We wish that we could be a woman and so the closest and quick way is to be who we are here. We all try our best to look the part and try we do. A lot of woman buy magazines for fashion and they try to copy will say other woman, Why is is that woman will buy clothing with designer names and the answer is to look as good as the designing woman. I believe with all Great respect to all GGs out there that they should take what we do as a compliment as we not only admire them but try to copy them in every way.I remeber being with a female who enjoyed me being a CDM as I was very understanding and she also said to me that it was nice having a friend that was a live in to share with everyday. Joann:heehee::love:
This is a tough one! My wife has known about my dressing for years but still kind of looks the other way when I do it. Kind of like "if I don't see it it dosen't happen".Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaMarie
I do think that some women just have been brought up that guys are supposed to act one way and girls another. When we invade their territory they get a little uncomfortable.
Fortunatly for me my wife likes my shaved legs (from being a professional cyclist for 17 years!) and likes it when I am clean shaven every where, but when I dress it makes her almost freeze up and get really quiet.
I guess that we just have to do our best to try and change their minds about us and why we do what we do!
:kiss:
From a GG married to a CD (recent revelation) - I'm not sure this is as much about insulting as it may be competition. A list of what women face all their lives and list men face all their lives. If it offers insight...that is all we can hope for I think.
*I use the word "man" and "men" as a general term.
Women are supposed to dress up, shave our legs and all that from a young age to catch the eye of a man. It does not mean we will not have our hearts broken in the process.
Men are supposed to show they can dress rugged and nice at the same time also showing a woman they are desirable as a husband. They are brought up with the 'hunter & gather' mindset and have to exhibit this to the men that surround them in their lives. Sometimes the expectation to "be a man" is as difficult as expectations to "be attractive to get a man".
Women venture out of the home and most must work as well. We end up having to compete with other women for the same job - and men too. Depending on the job it rarely comes to competency but the thinning of the herd comes down to one's sex. It's a harsh reality no matter how much people say "we've come along way" in that department.
Men don't always want the jobs they have - they get them because its just easier being a man than to be able to run a daycare center or something far more nurturing. Men are overwhelmed at the choices presented. Math skills, problem solving, delegating et al are supposed to be easy to them opening more job choices.
Women begin to have children. Most become very defensive overall - the demand of that instinct to protect their children including providing food, shelter, and clothing kicks in. Its all or nothing and again, other women will judge the Mom on how she is doing - whether she asked for that input or not.
Men are invited into their own children's lives by the bearer of their children. It does not matter how much they love them, they simply are excluded aside from pure exhaustion to change one more diaper for the day. This tips the scales away from the nurture man. They only get to show their son how to pee standing up, they don't get to give advice to their daughters how to not look like a tramp or too much like a tomboy.
As life changes a woman's body this seemingly endless propaganda to stay as young looking and energetic as possible is every nook and cranny of life. Menopause is horrific. So is the ever increasing lung cancer and breast cancer numbers among women and for f's sake! Women have to look good dying! Looking how you feel is again, out of the question by just looks from other women or looking at those who can pull off jeans, a blazer and heels not looking uncomfortable and under 5 minutes prep time can deflate a good day. Everything is a struggle...including feeling and being female.
If the wife stayed at home or worked part time, entering into the work force at an older age is defeating with every interview. You need a current education and employment history.
Men enter menopause (oh yes! they do too!) the hair falls out from the top, grows out of the ears or new eyeglass frames have to be bought to accommodate for eyebrows that could ensnare a wild boar. The tummy bulges and flab appears where it never did before. Men begin to discuss the latest pill on the market to make love longer or whenever - that was NEVER a problem before! The wind could blow and shwing! Now it stares sadly at the floor in hurricane force winds.
During war times this is even more pronounced. I think back to my Aunt who was a Nurse during the Korean war and my father (I was adopted) who became a CG Commander and the war they had *during* the war. My Aunt was the best field nurse and received medals, of course her younger brother had to be better than that in his mind. Grandma sewed clothing for soldiers and many of her friends worked in factories building warcraft. They were good at what they did but as soon as the husbands and sons came home, these women were relegated to being a "housewife". They were taught not only to be women but able to do everything in case the husband did not come home. Grandpa worked on diesel engines and did the rest of his life. He was never told to go home because his services were no longer needed.
You see, the war of the sexes has been going on for a very long time as has this weird societal influence. Those of us that are older were brought up very differently than the 20-30 somethings of today. They seem to share more and more tolerant of we perceive as differences. There are still some barriers and square boxes but overall they tend to use what talents they have together. I see this in my son and the girls he dates - he's had a very diverse sexual upbringing because I didn't want him in a square box. I find this conversation with many mothers of his age, we were adamant our son's be more sensitive to discrimination against them and others and to defend or break walls when they see them.
But for us...we are stuck in a way. As an older wife I feel my husband is a competition to not only earn a good income but have the body strength needed to do pretty much anything that needs to be done. He can change his looks if he wants - I'm stuck trying to desperately look remotely feminine.
It takes me an hour to wear a good matching outfit having changed clothes 5 times. It looks great on the hanger at the store, it looks like hell on me. Make up is difficult to get "right". Now he wants me to teach him how to do all that - waaaaaaiiiiiitttttt!!!!! I can barely do this myself and had to watch other women, then use books, then use the internet to get something remotely close that shows off my natural curves and facial features.
This has taken me years to figure out. My body, as a female, has changed so many times I can barely keep up. Now you, a man, want me to teach you how to look as good if not better in a short span of time?
I think if 'our' men took the time to learn on their own, to not try to compete with us but compliment us then there wouldn't be such a division of emotions. If our man does not over emphasise a feminine pose, I think we'd feel less weirded out. Only paid models pose like that - you ever notice your wife sit on the edge of the couch, back arched, head tossed back every single time she sits down? No. Not unless you paid her and even then, has she shied from the camera? Most will, do and have so you need to figure out what kind of life your wife has had first *before* dressing up.
Find a way to take the competition out of it. Find a way for her to be doing something she feel she is truly capable of outside the home and I'll bet there would be less resistance. There are probably a few men thinking right now about the kind of life their wives have had and their reaction when they came to them as CD'er.
This is really the one time us wives and SO's need for you as men to 'problem solve'. While it is a mostly foisted male trait, we need your help to do that first before the skirt and heels go on. Buy us spa days. Buy us massages. Buy us whatever it is you know we like that is rare and we've always said makes us feel more female. Indulge us and you will be indulged in return.
Really, you will.
Every time I get called sir I'm insulted.
But the world is made up of individuals. All making individual decisions. Interacting in complex patterns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreamfor
And individualism does not preclude altruism. In fact most individualists I know are fiercely altruistic.
Also putting the comfort of the community before the rights and needs of minorities and individuals can be a recipe for horrors.
So do I but its usually because I answered the phone immediately after waking up or have a head cold ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa Golightly
[SIZE="3"]Is Cding insulting to women? I think it depends on the individual woman! Some dress in an overt caricature of a woman and I even find that offensive but there are many CDs that want to absorb the fine attributes of women. Not just the look or the outwardly physical but the wholistic propereies of being female - personality traits, emotional make up and reactions, The warmth and nurturing qualities. The better natures of being female. Woman have a natural inclination to these things Cd men for the most part are gentler and more in tune with these things but we are still men and there is a steep learning curve. The dressing is a beginning, If i look like a woman and begin feeling feminine my natural course is to try to discover the fine points of being female! All out of total respect and love of women.
Now I an certain that Cding is insulting, offensive and threatening to men who don't dress to the point of violence!
Kelsy[/SIZE]
At the end of the day I am not insulted, I am however frequently amused by the fact, that so many of you appear to need your heads removing from another part of your anatomy.
You may wear that which is deemed by society to be female clothing, but never ever will you ever come close to being. It has taken generations upon generations for us to evolve into what we are today, patterns handed down through generations of genes, and so you remain (CD's) males wearing dresses with not a clue.
Now this is just my :2c: from my side of the fence
I think to some, it can be - whether that 'objectification' is a good thing, is another matter..Quote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
If this was just superficial, we could choose not to do it. Yet however hard we try, the vast majority of us find it is a very deep part of us - it's 'hard wired', just like having red hair or blue eyes, or being left-handed?Quote:
It is for the more superficial reasons you mention.
Don't you think the ones who find us threatening, are the ones who are rebelling against a desire in themselves, just like homophobia? :) :devil:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelsy
Those who are sure of their own masculinity don't see us as a threat..
if i may :- to answer the question i have to say no ..
IMHO i feel it's about attitude and respect is the key ..think twice post or say once .. what we say can be hurtful and sometimes we don't have a clue
Some one once said Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :hugs:
Angie
I think you're so right about that. My ex wife would ask that I only shave my legs certain times in the year. But for me leg shaving is the first and most essential part of any cross dressing experience. Now that we're divorced I'm clean shaven almost all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisa_e_love
So Jess has a clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess
Unfortunately, I read few others who do.
Listen up. Being a woman has NOTHING to do with clothing. Being feminine has NOTHING to do with clothing.
When you put on a dress, it does not make you feminine. It makes you a man in a dress. That's what CDing is all about. This is a CDing forum. CDing means wearing the clothes of the oposite sex. This is perfectly OK. And as I said earlier, many women actually find that endearing and kinda cute.
BUT, trying to say you are more feminine, just because you put on a dress (and everything else that goes with it), IS insulting to women. There is NOTHING inherently FEMININE about wearing a dress. Women are feminine when they are NAKED for goodness sake.
Being a woman is not easy. You have to deal with lower pay, expectations of running a household AND working, expectations of attractiveness, not being listened to, and sexual harassment EVERYWHERE you go, just to name a few. Having your man say he is becoming more feminine by putting on a dress can easily be viewed as insulting to women. The clothing is SUCH a small part of womenhood as to be ludicrous.
Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.
There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.
Lovies,
Stephenie
Hm :straightface:
I guess the insulting point is the usual "I am better than you" expressed as an generalization. That's not TG specific, that's general bad attitude.
I am sorry to say Stephanie, you are doing the same, by "defending" women the way you do. And I don't know whom you do a favor.
That's plain stereotyping. Neither all women do nor all men don't. Neither women nor men do it all at once and always ... at least I don't know any.Quote:
Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.
That's a generalization, with all pitfalls generalizations have.Quote:
There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.
Maybe I would have agreed with "clothes don't make you a woman", but saying it is insulting to "claim some aspects" is an insult in itself, because it IS some aspects, though not the whole bundle. It might be debatable what else is needed to earn the label "woman". That will depend on the definition. Clothes are certainly not enough, but remembering birthdays and cooking aren't either.
I mostly agree with Dee Talbot. And others, that clothes don't make you feminine, just as clothes or a hairy body don't make you masculine. And it is a mistake to look at a GG or a male & pass judgement,"oh SHE isn't feminine..." or "HE isn't masculine..." most of us have both traits within us. At any moment a person can appear on the surface to be at odds with a stereotyped role.
If people say "all CD's are..." or "all GG's are..." etc., they foster ignorance which is divisive & leads to hatred. People are individuals.
Jess had it right. Unless we understand what our hearts are teaching us and listen to our feelings with this, we miss the point entirely.:happy:
This may get a little complex for some but please everyone read it. It may well blow your mind!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess
In the nucleus of every nucleated cell of my body (which is almost half of the biomass of me as we are all more colonies of bacteria than we are human at all anyway. The un-nucleated cells of course being just red blood cells carrying oxygen) there is the mitochondria, the organelle that powers every biological function. I eat to provide building materials but even more so for the suger that the mitochondria uses to run. I breathe so that the mitochondria has oxygen to run. It is the power source that makes all animals different from plants and allows us to be mobile and active and complex. And what is in the mitochondria? Why the DNA of all my maternal ancestors and none of my paternal ones!
Human DNA is based around the female!
But what about the DNA that designed my structure? Well I have an x chromosome and a Y chromosome and there are active and inactive genes on each (and some will turn on and others off over the course of my life). The x chromosome is female. GG's have two x chromosomes.. I have one. The Y chromosome adds the variations that make males.
And during development we all start as female until a trigger causes developing organs to turn male or continue female development or sometimes to get stuck in between.
So Every cell in my body is powered by a storehouse of female dna. The DNA that defined my development was half female and some of the male half wasn't even turned on.
Now brain differences between males and females are slight and generalised. Plenty of men have brain structure that is more female than the average females brain structure and vice versa. It is in the brain that the instincts, experiences, memories and behaviours are all centred. The difference in brain structure between any two humans is greater than the difference between the average man and woman so that gender difference is one that exists only as vague averages. Huge proportions of men have female-style brains and vice versa.
So what does that mean? It means that :
1. We are all more colonies of bacteria than human (the bacteria are smaller so more of them fit in but there are more bacteria cells inside than human)
2. Of those human cells, we are totally powered by female dna
3. What little of men that is different in design than women is small
4. men are only slight variations of female anyway
5. we were all female for part of our time in the womb
6. our brains, the seat of who we are, is hardly different between male and female at all and huge numbers of each gender have brains that are closer to the average of the other gender or well beyond the average.
More of all people is bacteria than human. More of all men is female than male.
So alas, biologically we are not very different at all.
The rest is created by differences in life experience.
Stephenie I think you might be a bit confused. I think that perhaps we first need to agree on what it means to be feminine because you seem to have it confused with being female, which I don't believe is an actual requirement. I'm sure our FtM brothers will tell you that you don't have to be born male to be masculine. Kinda like what it means to be gay. Having sex with a man doesn't make you gay. wanting to have sex with a man makes you gay. Its defined by your thoughts, not your actions. So I believe that while the act of putting on a dress doesn't make you a feminine person, the fact that we want to, the fact that we have the desire to look pretty does make us feminine. That doesn't give us a womanhood pass, but it is something more that we have in common with woman than most men do. We can say this without claiming to be women, or to know what its like to be a woman. I think we have already established that there is masculine and feminine in everyone, so to imply that because we are men we can't be feminine puzzles me. If men by definition can't be feminine, what are so many of my Transgendered sisters getting beaten up out on the street for? I have yet to find a single person who says "Because I put on a dress, I'm a woman." What about those who feel their genders don't match their bodies? Does a TS know what its like to be a woman? Is an MtoF TS a true woman?Quote:
When you put on a dress, it does not make you feminine. It makes you a man in a dress. That's what CDing is all about. This is a CDing forum. CDing means wearing the clothes of the oposite sex. This is perfectly OK. And as I said earlier, many women actually find that endearing and kinda cute.
BUT, trying to say you are more feminine, just because you put on a dress (and everything else that goes with it), IS insulting to women. There is NOTHING inherently FEMININE about wearing a dress. Women are feminine when they are NAKED for goodness sake.
Being a woman is not easy. You have to deal with lower pay, expectations of running a household AND working, expectations of attractiveness, not being listened to, and sexual harassment EVERYWHERE you go, just to name a few. Having your man say he is becoming more feminine by putting on a dress can easily be viewed as insulting to women. The clothing is SUCH a small part of womenhood as to be ludicrous.
Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.
There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.
Lovies,
Stephenie
As for the "Start with being more empathetic" paragraph, I've done each and every one of those things, does that make me a woman? Its just plain predjudice to assume that because we are male we are none of those things, or that because someone is female they are all of them..
It has been posted many times here that "clothes don't make the woman" (or the man for that matter.) I have to agree 100% with this. I am as much of a woman in a pair of old jeans and a grubby t-shirt, working under the hood of a car with my husband as I am in a cocktail dress, makeup to the nines, and stiletto heels that could kill a man with a well placed kick. My husband is still all-man in a dress, but there is a more visible cue that he is in touch with his female side when he is wearing a dress (does that make sense? it did in my head) I think what I am trying to convey here is that I haven't lost any respect for the PERSON I am married to when he is presenting differently than the persona that society has boxed him into. Clothes are really just an outward affectation, symbol, or method of covering one's nudity. Nothing more, nothing less.
And I know that many are uncomfortable with the assertation that they are just clothes. But they are just clothes. (as pertaining to this discussion)
However, it's the reasoning, behaviors, justifications, psychology, etc. that are part and parcel of crossdressing that, for me, are subject to this discussion. I think it's important to separate the two subjects. There are some who will find the idea of a dude in a dress insulting. I don't happen to agree with this line of thought, but I am not going to tell someone else what they are allowed to think and feel.
I personally don't think that being a crossdresser makes a person selfish, self-absorbed, thoughtless, or any other label we might place on someone who appears to be acting in a manner that some....GG's for example....may find insulting. I think that those who do act in such a fashion would probably be just as insulting in a pair of manly pants, cowboy boots, and wearing a Burt Reynolds mustache. I do feel that taking a man who is an a$$ in drab and putting him in drag, will simply leave you with an a$$ in drag.
It's not about crossdressing.
It's not about the clothes.
It's about who the person is at the core to begin with. JMHO.
Thank you for putting into words what I have been thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
Louise.
This is a pretty interesting question, and there are some great responses.
I think for me, there are two aspects to dressing.
First, it's a fetish. :thumbsup:
Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification. Yes. I like bras, they turn me on. And pantyhose, and lipstick. I've known women who got turned on by guy's hands, by sweaty clothes, and leather chairs.
Go figure. As far as I'm concerned, a fetish is just a kink, and is neither insulting nor complimentary toward women. And our culture has made femininity, the kind you can buy, the most desirable commodity around. Not surprising guys would like lingerie, too! If women feel insulted because guys talk like women then perhaps the insult has come from advertisers and marketing geniuses, who have turned womanhood into a commodity.
Then, it can be a deeper fetish. :thumbsup:
....an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
That's seems a bit over the top, yet I deeply identify with women and feminine qualities. I don't think I AM a woman, yet I have had many extremely moving experiences dressed as a woman. Most cultures, also, have some recognition of this, even ceremonies where men dress and imitate women.
Most of us also began dressing before puberty, and I would conclude from that that the desire to dress isn't primarily sexual. For many of us dressing allows us to express feminine qualities of kindness, softness, caring, and sensitivity that men in our culture are not "allowed" to express. My guess is that it's not uncommon for women to be merely tolerant of the dress, but very much in love with the soft and gentle guy who emerges once he's inside it. :hugs:
...enough. i'm going to put on my bra, have a glass of wine, and enjoy the lipstick mark on the glass....:2c:
waspookie6 hit the nail on the head.. competition.
You HAVE done each and every one of those things? Or you DO each and every one of those things. Clearly it doesn't make you a woman. But neither does putting on a dress make you feminine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violetgray
I'm not confused at all. I am quite clear.
The question asked was, "is CDing insulting to women?"
I answered the question clearly, twice. No, CDing is NOT insulting to women.
Then I tried to explain what IS insulting to women.
What IS insulting to women is a man trying to claim some aspect of womanhood by dressing up in women's clothes. That's all. Simple, not hard to understand if you think about it a bit. Try.
Stephenie
I don't see it as insulting to women that we dress like them at all.
But like i others have said we all do it for different reasons. I don't dress to mock women i do it b/c i enjoy that other said of me. Plus its not easy to act like women do when you grow up as a man. So women wear pants i don't take that as insulting at all so they should think its insulting if i wear a skirt are a dress.
If what offends some women is men trying to claim womanhood just by wearing the clothes alone... and no-one seems to be doing that.. then women are being offended by a missperception of what CDs are doing?
Stephanie, being "the mother" can be done by both sexes and often is in todays world. I have done this for my son from age 2 1/2 to now (he's 21yrs now and thankfully gainfully employed) while running a medium size business. Life has been hectic at times but very rewarding. I believe I have done a good job on all of counts of your motherhood list above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenie S
My wife gave me an anniversary card recently which thanked me for being empathetic, gentle, considerate, strong (emotionally), and -the part I liked most - a good soul mate and partner.
I also wear dresses occassionally to express inner emotions I am feeling.
So now, from your post, I can assume I am almost the complete female - except for the you know whatsit down there.:D
Do you find that insulting?
Well to help you out, I do not consider myself a female. I am proud to be a male or female. I also feel gifted to feel feminine sometimes as I do. And I feel that it is insulting to have these actual feelings discounted. To me they feel real. A woman cannot know that I do not "feel" female or feminine. For all either of us know, I may very well be right on the button. The only difference is that mine may be fleeting and yours permanent, because I have other important roles to fill in my life as a male. Once again neither of us know for sure, though.
My invitation to you is that instead of us both getting insulted, how about we explore the common ground and enjoy it. Teach me how to be a better femme so I can be a better person. I'll teach you a few masculine traits you may want to adopt. We can start off talking about disposable diapers (we call them nappies here in NZ) if you wish but that really would be a side issue until we got down to our personal feelings and opinions. Then I think you would discover we have more in common than not. Because we are both humans and come from the same genestock many moons ago!
:hugs: Jazzmine
Now... you reminded me of the last time I went out for dinner (there were seven of us, all dressed like this - well, we thought it was funny...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
:hiding:
Dear Jazzmine,
No, hon, I'm not insulted.
And I'm willing to bet that your SO does not feel insulted by your putting on a dress. From your description, my post was not aimed at you.
Your mention of nappies brought back a memory and a smile to my face, though. Let me tell you about it.
Years and years ago, I was an young and inexperienced mom (dad?) with my first infant (alone). (I had been through other infants with my partners, but this was my first by myself. I was living in a small Newfoundland outport town (200 people). There were NO disposable diapers available, all I had was cloth, and certainly no diaper service, which was what my parents had had. Suddenly I had to deal with dirty diapers with no indoor plumbing, and no running water.
In Newfoundland there was a product called Nappie-San. You suposedly just let the nappies soak in this solution overnight and they came out looking fine in the morning. OK, but I had LOADED nappies to deal with and NO flush toilet. I DID, however, have an old style wringer washer with an open top and a big agitator in the tub. So, I would load the dirty nappies into the washer, add some hot water I heated on the wood stove (converted to naptha), and let them agitate for a few hours. I could then pump the whole brown mess down the kitchen sink drain into the ocean (ICK!!, but remember I was young and alone and EVERYONE'S sink drained into the ocean) (So did the toilets of the few in town who were lucky enough to have toilets). Then I could dump the poopless nappies into the Nappie-San in a 5 gallon (about 21 liter) bucket and let them soak over night.
Well, it worked. So that was my (somewhat embarrassing to look back on) solution to the problem of what to do with dirty nappies.
As I said, the memory brought a smile to my face. Thanks.
Lovies,
Stephenie
Well, sweetie, it IS funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
Lovies,
I feel guilty about it sometimes. It may appear that by crossdressing we are saying this is what being a woman is all about. And it my imply that we believe women should be feminine in their attire, when maybe it is not so important to them, as it surely has little with being a woman.
As a male, I love to see women looking good and dressed up. I do not expect it, nor do I demand it. My SO is a good example of this. She does not care about clothes too much. It is a trivial matter to her. But she understands it is a big deal to me. I do not ask her to get dressed up, yet since I have been dressing up, she has shown more interest in doing so, to my benefit!
It is old hat to most GGs. They grew up making up and dressing to look good. It is not terribly exciting for many. It remains though, for many. With the complicated lives most modern women live, why spend time and effort dressing, when they are not longer expected to? We never got that chance in the first place.
I know I may get hammered for this. But I really do believe in spite of the above, that many women do want their husbands to be a bit more romantic and to spend more time with them. And maybe their love lives might benefit from being a little sexier from time to time and that includes dressing and making up and surprising their husbands with occasional different looks.
It is funny that my wife loves me to look good as a man from time to time. She also adores it when I look good as "her" girl. Yet she rarely makes an attempt at dressing up herself. But I see her trying it now. I think it is coming...Yeah! Hooray for crossdressing! It may still save some ladies (and their counterparts) from their drab wear!
Michelia
Hmmmmmm. You are really working the 'stashes :) But somehow I don't see Burly Burt joining you in dressing :tongueoutQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
Thanks Stephanie
Nappie-San ... yes I still use the stuff - good for removing stains on most things!
I used real nappies too for my son, initially. Your story made me laugh because I had similar experiences flushing (scraping) poops down old tubs - at least I had fresh running water! Yuk and Yuk. Things we do.
Doing that stuff would be a good initiating program for CD-mother wannabe's do you think? We could start a community service using us CDrs to run round and do the nappie service for new mothers. Nah, wouldn't work, not enough glamour!!!
Beating the sh!t out of nappies is an insult to both sexes I reckon, but the reasons we do it are commendable.
Hugs Jazzmine
Hello Linda Marie!
I am the selfish person that your wife is talking about. I dress to excite myself and go "ahh" in the mirror. I love the smells, feel and visual attraction I get from looking in the mirror at myself when dressed. And because I have spent so much time trying to get there, I go out to get more excitement for myself. She would be right if she was talking to me!
I have to agree with a lot of what I see here. Most CDs want to be feminine in a much broader sense than just what they wear. Women should be flattered, and likewise they should be much more inclined to be insulted by a GG who behaves inappropriately.
That said, there are those who claim to be CDs who are insulting to everybody. I'm talking about the middle-aged bald biker with a huge mustache who puts on panties and stockings and starts firing off lewd instant messages to people in CD groups. That's simultaneously insulting to all that is masculine and feminine.
I find that extremely depressing. Seriously, I feel absolutely terrible after thinking about that for a few minutes. All I can think of is that 99% of CDs here would love to make a dish for the person down the street, and be the sweetest girl ever. I don't really need to get into the tragic details of why that is hardly possible for most. But I'll have my friends over to grill and have a beer, and I'll visit friends and relatives in the hospital or nursing home whenever I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaMarie
Dee I agree with everything you said. And I take your point about (everyday) clothes just being a cover for our underlying nudity.
On another level though the costumes we wear are more than just a body cover. We all use clothing as a symbol of who we are. CDs are no different.
E.g. Please excuse the crassness but soldiers from USA would not want to be seen dead in an Iranian soldiers uniform. It's not what they stand for. Which simply goes to show that our costume is very important to us as individuals and collectively.
When a man puts on a dress he does so at considerable risk (I know you know most of them so won't attempt a list). He has fought every piece of logic his brain (in my case, like Pooh Bear, a very little one) can throw at him, to override it, and still persue dressing up. The lingerie and the dress are a symbol of what he feels he must be or become, even if it is for a few minutes, because that is who he feels he is at that time.
There is no mockery in this dressing. There might be bad fashion sense and technique. It is also mostly a hopeless affair because once 12 o'clock comes Cinderella turns back into a pumpkin. Yet we still feel compelled to carry on.
How this can be conceived as insulting to woman is beyond me. Like I said I have a rather small brain. CDs love their girl time. It's precious to them. It engenders special feelings. For a short time it erases aggressive testosterone and replaces it with softer female gender therapy. GGs may mock our feelings as male sourced. But is it? How do you judge? I certainly do not feel "masculine" when I am in femme mode, it's quite different. So what am I feeling? I want and try very hard for it to be feminine. I have some estrogen coursing through my body like every male does. Could it be I can get glimpses of being a female?
I think this is more fascinating than insulting.
:hugs:Jazzmine
Stupidly naiive... in thinking that everyone is wanting to have lewd instant messages sent to them sure... but insulting to all that is masculine and feminine?Quote:
That said, there are those who claim to be CDs who are insulting to everybody. I'm talking about the middle-aged bald biker with a huge mustache who puts on panties and stockings and starts firing off lewd instant messages to people in CD groups. That's simultaneously insulting to all that is masculine and feminine.
So for those who think some cding is insulting.. only those who get close to passing, who dress conservatively and who try and be just like 'women' are not insulting to women? Only those whose dressing is not sexual are ok?
That's the crossdressing communities equivalent of the burka. Really it is.
You'll only be acceptable and not an insult if you fit within these parameters of acceptability....
Well as a person whose nature has me burdened and blessed with a desire to express aspects of each gender I must have the right to express both of these seperatly and simultaneuosly if that is my desire. So any suggestion that I must hide my duel nature in either one gender or the other, and then only in a conservative and effective manner, is more than merely insulting.
Who could even define what it is to be a 'woman'. Is the lesbian friend of mine a 'woman'? She wears much more masculine clothes than I do. Her hair is more of a mens haircut than mine. She doesn't find anything insulting about peoples crossdressing.. is she any less a woman?
Do I have to take on the flaws of the genetic females in this society too? Should I binge drink in my teens? Should I shoplift? Should I say one thing to one friend only to say another to another? Should I secretly compete with all my friends? Should I be sexist? Should I try and tear down the self esteem of those I feel envious of? Should I make constant derogatory comments about groups of people to whom I do not belong?...... these are all things that are more common amongst women in my community than men. It's not true of all women I know of course, far from it, but then what exactly is?
No, it is not the CDing that is insulting.
I thoroughly agree with you. And I also have met genetic women who would never be so compassionate or if they did it would only be for appearances. Other genetic women have been some of the most kind and good people I know, but then so have some of the men.Quote:
All I can think of is that 99% of CDs here would love to make a dish for the person down the street, and be the sweetest girl ever. I don't really need to get into the tragic details of why that is hardly possible for most. But I'll have my friends over to grill and have a beer, and I'll visit friends and relatives in the hospital or nursing home whenever I can.
Kindness, empathy, decency, these are not gender-specific traits. Expression of emotion except under certain circumstances has culturally become so though.
Believe me, I've got plenty masculine traits when I'm wearing a skirt, and I'm not disparaging anyone just because they're not embarking on the road to full-on gender reassignment.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
What I mean is that leaving the massive biker 'stache on and thinking you're feminine just because you're wearing a little lingerie -- while putting zero actual effort into being attractive (and I'm thinking of a particularly scary pic I got from a seriously hairy guy nearly buck naked on his bed) I must say -- is an insult to femininity. And the fact that he thinks he can just put it out there like that with no attempt at tact is an insult to masculinity.
I agree with you completely Batty. But then, it boils down to what I have been saying all along about men. And I will say it includes women also. In humankind, we will find a variety of differnent people. Some will be compassionate, some hurtful, some insulting, some uplifting, etc. etc. etc. Our little community here, and the larger CDing community is going to have the same breakdown of personality types.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
It's not the CDing that is insulting. There are some personality types that are going to rub other personality types the wrong way. The insulting behaviors they engage in are irrelevant to CDing. It is only because we know these individuals from the crossdressing community that we can possibly draw parallels between dressing and asinine behavior. But, as I said before. Take that a$$ out of the dress and he is still an a$$. I don't think the dressing causes the CDer to behave like that. It's just that this person expresses themselves in an insulting manner regardless of gender presentation. I am 100% certain that the individuals who annoy me most here, would annoy me just as much if I met them in drab on the street. Who knows......maybe I have.
If any of you recognize me as the person who was looking at you with disgust and annoyance on the street.....then it's you I am talking about :tongueout
I would like to throw this out too, in the interest of equal time. I am sure that I, as a GG, annoy plenty of people here. Does that mean that being a GG is automatically annoying or insulting to CDs? No, of course not. It does however mean that my personality rubs some people the wrong way. Does this also mean that they are in the wrong for their feelings toward me? Of course not.
To quote an 80's classic sitcom song:
"the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, may not be right for some." :D :p (annoying....ain't it???)
There are a few drummers on here that I find personally insulting. Most are on ignore. They ARE insulting to me, because I FIND their attitudes to be insulting. The definition of insult is: To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness.. I think we need to pay special attention to the first of these: gross insensitivity. How many of us are guilty of being insulting by our insensitivity. It is no less insulting if unintended. The insult is there. By being unintentional, it becomes easier to excuse and forgive the insult. It does not however, negate the insult.
What does this epic post boil down to? This bears repeating.
It's not the CDing that is insulting. It is random people who behave in a grossly insensitive, insolent, or contemptuously rude manner whom are insulting. There are some CD's who behave this way, but the crossdressing is irrelevant.
I've been looking through the gg's comments, and this one seems to be something of the essence. It agrees with my experience, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenie S
When my g/f discovered me, she at first angry :Angry3: , then tolerant. We'd go out to movies and I'd wear lingerie under my drab. She would go along because she liked the sex afterward.
She didn't like my absorption in dressing. After a while I relaxed and was less absorbed, and she did too. She discovered that she really loved Chrissie, who was kind and gentle and sweet (and like to clean house :thumbsup:). She began to relate to Chrissie, whether Chrissie was wearing women's clothes or not. :hugs: She began to support and nurture the 'inner' Chrissie.
Chrissie was VERY happy about this, and dressing became less urgent, and more fun. Now, I can be kind and nurturing and sweet--whether I'm dressed or not, and I'm a better person. The sex is good, too. :thumbsup:
Please elaborate on "putting effort" into gender identity. Maybe you can redeem how shallow and narrow that paragraph sounded.Quote:
Originally Posted by racquel937