Printable View
Damn. You mean wearing my expensive tailored suit and nice heels, with my hair and makeup given the most attention for a genuine business meeting is just a thrill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberta Llyan
*grumbles* Better go find some nylons and lace panties then.
You're pulling what I said out of context. Go back and read the entire post. I was talking about it being heart, mind, and soul. And that is what it is. If you are not trans-gender in that manner then you are not TG but just a man in women's clothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
To me, someone who cross-dresses fits under the umbrella term 'transgender'..
And can we PLEASE not use the word 'just' so much - it's unnecessarily judgemental. Divisions between ourselves help none of us. :sad:
I know I know! I was poking ribs!Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberta Llyan
Although it was a thrill wearing my nice suit for the first time! When I asked at the presentation what their first impression was when I walked through the door, I got a lot of compliments, including CONFIDENT.
Wooot :)
I dont even know if my answer will get through to You after all of the previous answers, before me..
No I have not read them ALL either.. I do not need to...
The answer is simple..
A TG = Is Any person who dresses as the other.. = Umbrella term
Crossdresser = Is Any person who dresses as the other = Umbrella term
Transvestite = Onr who showes in Puplic that S/HE is a TG/CD
Transexuale= One who Changes ones sex..
Also
DragQueen = One who CDs for ARE and Entertainment.
Katie
Very much so, especially when you review the entomology!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
Goes for the Girls who dress as men too!
B,b,but I've got, hmm maybe that's had, some great friends who are 'just men in womens clothes' and proud of it!Quote:
And can we PLEASE not use the word 'just' so much - it's unnecessarily judgemental.
I say 'had' cause their wives or girlfriends or worse, daughters, are vicious evil antisocial creatures who take these nice expressive people on shopping trips and outings, leave us 'friends' wondering if they have been kidnapped!
I am DREADING my daughters getting old enough to DEMAND shopping trips. They already drag me around and insist I try things on all the time! Even my wife can be damn annoying at times!
No one ever did that before I started transition. ;)
I'm a gender enhanced person. So are you. There, you have your label. Now get dressed and go shopping.
If they want to use the term about themselves, fine - the problem always comes when labels are applied to others and when a 'hierarchy' is implied.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
That has always caused unnecessary hurt and disharmony in this community?
But it IS a valid description and IT IS acceptable when used in correct context. 'Cross Dressing' IS only a person of one gender who expresses an appearance of the other gender, usually going to a LOT of effort to do so, with a lot of pride behind the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
Woman in Menswear is just as common, but just not so noticed.
I just truly wish all the 'private' CDs would get out into the street and make that end of the spectrum as visible and celebrated as possible.
My daughter was watching a show on TV yesterday about the Roman era. The Men were all in DRESSES - so she said!
But that aside, we came back to the different between a CD and a TS.
My personal expression is well stated about about CD.
A TS has physiological issues to deal with, clothes do NOT make a TS, they merely ease a symptom of social indoctrination.
I've also said many times before the border between a 'high level CD' and a 'low level TS' is so crossed that a person on that intersection may be far more confused and distressed than a CD or a TS a few inches away on their own scale.
I can't imagine what it's like being on that intersect. I think many TS's pass through that intersect as they evolve, but getting stuck on it - well here there is the question of this topic.
We can express the 'outer extremes' and identify that there is a scale and an intersection, but I suspect the OP was more concerned about their position STUCK in the intersection and looking for a direction - Four Roads - go back, turn left, turn right or go straight ahead.
More discussion is needed to guide people who hit that cross road. I just don't know what I can add because my experience of such is extremely limited and I feel most people want to fall into a bucket, rather than be stuck in the middle.
Maybe if we focus on making that intersection a happy place to be, that doesn't require confusion or 'decision' making to 'validate' oneself and their place, the issue of "Am I a TS or a CD" will go away of it's own, allowing those who are at the further ends of the spectrum ro travel as they go.
Read your posting to me elsewhere and agree totally on the inventing of something to avoid prejudice. That is what I have and continue to support.Quote:
That has always caused unnecessary hurt and disharmony in this community?
It hurts those who are vulnerable a lot less when EVERYONE speaks the same language.
I think this topic in it's own is a variant on that issue.
Thanks, Pruella, somehow I feel that what you wrote is getting closer to what I (the original poster) am talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
However, some of the other recent postings by other posters have assumed that "transgender" means only "CD or TS".
And what you wrote has implicit in it that "Crossdressing is over here, and TS is over there, and you might be moving between the two, but there is only CD City and TS City and the Road" -- which at least adds in "the road" into the possibilities.
When I posted originally and in my follow-ups, I tried to be careful to distinguish between "transgender" (yes, an umbrella term) and "transsexual", as I am considering the possibility that I am one of the several forms of "transgender" who are not "transsexual". But for whatever reason, we really don't hear much about those other forms of transgender on this forum. Just look at how many of the New Member Introductions say that growing up they used to think that they were the only ones who ever did those things, and then reflect on how I must feel to come to this, one of the largest transgender forums in the world, and find even most of the people here only know of CD and TS, and I'm having to break my own trails off into Here Be Monsters territory by myself. :sad:
I don't know what I am. Maybe it would be easier if I just adopted "gender enhanced person" and left it at that. But reflect back to my original question of "What do I tell my mother?" -- "gender enhanced person" isn't very informative. At this point in my life, telling my mother that I was a "gender confused person" would probably be more accurate. :straightface:
I don't feel like I am "transsexual": I've never had that sense that I was "born in the wrong body", I don't yearn for my lost girlhood, dolls are just "things" to me (I did go through the phase of little plastic Cowboys and Indians, though, and on the balance my sympathies were with the Indians.) Yes, I did sometimes play with the girls at recess, but that wasn't because I felt like I was one of them: it had more to do with the guys deciding that I wasn't one of the "guy crowd". (I don't remember any of them who actually disliked me, but if you are bright and generally non-athletic and not "cool" and not the class clown... well, at that age, being ignored is social torment enough.)
I don't feel that I am "two-spirited", at least not in the meaning of having substantially distinct male and female personalities and switching between the two of them.
I might perhaps be technically "androgynous", but I am socialized to that implying more absence of distinguishing male or female characteristics, rather than possessing both, with "hermaphodite" implying the possession of both male and female characteristics (but "hermaphodite" is perhaps too strong for my situation.)
But returning more directly to the original question: here in the forum, we have relatively good ideas of what "crossdresser" is, and of what "transsexual" is, but all those other possibilities are largely Terra Incognita. If one does not feel that one is Transsexual (in the sense of "really" being a member of "the other" sex), then how does one know if one's feelings are within the "normal range" of "crossdressers" or if one is instead within one of the other less-known categories?
In comparing myself to others in my social club, and seeing my willingness to "gender-bend", to be openly "a guy in a skirt" or similar, my tentative conclusion is that I am probably not within the typical range of crossdressing. But on the other hand, I'm not always clear on where cross-dressing ends and where TS begins: for example, if I were to become "24/7" non-op non-hormone "live as a woman", would that be definitely TS or would that be within the "typical range of crossdressing" or would that be a different category.... ?
Addendum:
I noticed that this topic is being followed by quite a number of readers, far more than I would have expected. If other people are finding themselves struggling with similar issues but do not feel comfortable posting about it, I welcome PMs. In particular, I'd be interesting in hearing from people who self-identify as something other than the CD or TS, even if you (like me) don't know what quite what it is that you do self-identify as.
Also, I found an earlier thread in this sub-forum on a closely related topic,
"How do you know?" started in May 2008 by Andre85. I haven't had time to read through all if it quite yet.
Personally, I agree with Karen on this, except I do like the clothes too and everything else that goes hand & hand with Womanhood.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyKaren
So from what I can tell based on what you originally posted, your a CD'r that has a breast fetish.. and maybe something more than that, but I'm not aware of any specific name you would call it, but I can't really see the point in it even if there was, what good would that do really.
But I'm sure if you saw a psychiatrist, they could be more specific on what to call it after getting into your head to find out why you feel the way you do.
Karen
Labels help people identify themselves or others, rather than go into an in-depth discussion of what they are about. But one has to be careful of them because so much depends on the other persons perception of what the label means to them.
Telling one's mom, though, needs to be thought out, of course. It certainly will take longer to explain to her than it would to most people on this site. Labels may not be appropriate. She may see them all in the same light, which may be bad. If it was me. I would explain what you do, how you feel, and that because there are many labels and perceptions, you felt it appropriate to describe rather than label what it is you do. I would also re-iterate key points that are important to you or may be to her. If she wants a label at some point, just do the best you can do (lots of food for thought in these posts) and be as honest as you can.
Good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelli Michelle
It would, I think, help if somehow I had a better idea of where my personal boundaries are, of what "is" or "is not" me, of what I would or would not do, gender-wise or sexually. Various things I have thought of in passing, I have more or less come to the conclusion that, "Well, that isn't something I'm particularly interested in, but if the circumstances actually came up, with the right people around me, I might be willing to give it a try". I suppose it's not much of an "identity"... "Good old wishy-washy Charlie Brown".
I'm not saying the above with the expectation that "If I could just find the right label, I would know who I am!!": just another indication of how hard it can be to figure out what one's gender is. Maybe it isn't any one thing in particular.
Just what I need... to found a new school, Gender Existentialism :heehee:
My particular problem was with the use of the word 'just' - it implies lesser, as if those who identify as CD, or even 'men in frocks' don't also suffer as a result?Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
But 'Cross Dressing' simply describes a behaviour - I think it's an erroneous assumption to believe that it is never linked to a degree of gender dysphoria?
IME, GD comes in different levels (and forms, which may or may not be mixed together). There is no simple binary, of CD or TS - there is a spectrum of feelings and behaviours?
Welcome :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tess-leigh
Not that simple. 'Hermaphrodite' isn't just characteristics, it's physiological not psychological. Intersexed is a better term and Intersexed XX/XY would be possibly the most accurate. (That's me BTW!) It's not a lot of fun either.Quote:
but I am socialized to that implying more absence of distinguishing male or female characteristics, rather than possessing both, with "hermaphodite" implying the possession of both male and female characteristics (but "hermaphodite" is perhaps too strong for my situation.)
Just on the 'Transgender' term, I think people use it to either avoid falling into a box, between boxes or who are in denial of their true box, whilst trying to adopt another but avoiding being flamed for faking what they are not!
Well that leaves you with:Quote:
<snip> If one does not feel that one is Transsexual (in the sense of "really" being a member of "the other" sex), then how does one know if one's feelings are within the "normal range" of "crossdressers" or if one is instead within one of the other less-known categories?
Androgynous
Transvestite (Sexual fetish)
Intersexed
Queer
Genderbender
You don't sound like a genderbender, but then again maybe you are, in which case get out there and bend! At least the next TS to follow you will have an easier time :)
Intersexed you either know, don't know or need to be tested. Most IS people never know.
Andro - maybe. Nothing wrong with that. If you feel neither Male or Female, or even feel you enjoy both aspects, then do just that - enjoy both.
Some Ando people I know go to work as a Man, live at home as a Woman and split the genders between two or more social circles. Too complicated for me :)
Scottish Men wear skirts all the time! [*ducks*]Quote:
In comparing myself to others in my social club, and seeing my willingness to "gender-bend", to be openly "a guy in a skirt" or similar,
Romans and Gladiators wore them too. So did Kings and Knights :)
Genderbenders are *rolls eyes* Crossdressers with attitude :)Quote:
my tentative conclusion is that I am probably not within the typical range of crossdressing.
Kinda like Punk or Goth is to normal people. It's all clothes at the end of the day :)
I think you example would put you on the border of CD/TS and either have people very confused, or you could be confused.Quote:
But on the other hand, I'm not always clear on where cross-dressing ends and where TS begins: for example, if I were to become "24/7" non-op non-hormone "live as a woman", would that be definitely TS or would that be within the "typical range of crossdressing" or would that be a different category.... ?
Of course, you might not be confused and sit on that overlap of the circles of the CD and the TS group.
I think your only confusion is trying to find a term to describe you that is 'accepted' and 'defined' socially.
This is something you probably need to decide more than us define for you. Cross Dresser is simplest :) At least it doesn't carry the 'sex' element.
I think anyone feeling like that should just press 'Reply' and rattle on for at least 250 words!Quote:
I noticed that this topic is being followed by quite a number of readers, <snip> In particular, I'd be interesting in hearing from people who self-identify as something other than the CD or TS, even if you (like me) don't know what quite what it is that you do self-identify as.
At least then we might find some foundation, or even 'worse' we might coin a new term!
No one seems to 'bite' in this segment of the site (thank god) and I keep saying Crossdressers are nice people who distance themselves from the very confusing 'TV' term that could mean a range of things - it seems - depending on where you are!
I thought it was taken for granted that a Crossdresser coming out is no more or less difficult than a TS coming out!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
CDs in my view are no more or less than a TS, just entirely different. I think most TS would agree "if only I could just wear Opposite Gender clothes and feel relaxed or less fatigued" but I'm afraid as Karen has said, and I've said - clothes do not make the TS :) Clothes usually make the CD.
That doesn't make either any more or less.
Gender Dusphoria is such a weird term. Crossdressing is a psychological need, maybe sometimes a want. Psychology is behavior, but don't let that mean that 'therapy' will cure someone. Crossdressing isn't something that needs to be cured. Most CDs I know, it's a hobby, or a past time, or just an expression of mood and feeling.Quote:
But 'Cross Dressing' simply describes a behaviour - I think it's an erroneous assumption to believe that it is never linked to a degree of gender dysphoria?
I've also said some go to a lot of effort too, sometimes more than a TS!
TS isn't so much behavior. CD I think would be both feeling and behavior. CDers might be as simple as 'around the house' like anyone wears PJs all day. Others might like the lime light of being Famous in the Public Eye.Quote:
IME, GD comes in different levels (and forms, which may or may not be mixed together). There is no simple binary, of CD or TS - there is a spectrum of feelings and behaviours?
Unlike a TS. A TS can't be 'part time' it's and all or none situation. Someone could be Androgynous TS, whishing to change genital structure, but still retain the expression of both genders. Just like an IS :)
I never said it was...we're talking about the same thing...its in the DSM as a disorder...we'll see what happens next DSMQuote:
Originally Posted by pruella
Right...great point.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
The total failure of antidepressants for me was one of my steps to realizing who and what i was. i never heard of gender dysphoria, or GID...i just knew that all day every day all i could think about was how much i hated being a guy....and i still punish myself for not figuring it out
many girls say they "know" or "knew" they were a woman since they were very young. this is one way to experience trannsexualism...they didnt try to fit in or cope...they accepted it right away or very early on, i think that's great
for me, i experienced it differently, i totally kept it to myself, i totally denied that i was a woman, , it evolved, I knew i wanted to be a woman, and constantly wished i was a woman... ...i developed zero self worth and i accepted my fate (why shouldnt i? i'm worthless i thought)
but i wanted to fit in sooooo badly, i wanted to make lots of money to prove i really was a man. i was working 80 hr weeks, going out and hanging with the guys all night....ugh
maybe you are technically correct..but i dont think its really simple at all....i crossdressed to calm my anxiety...i thought this was as good as it gets!! was i a crossdresser then and a ts now??? would you say that "feeling like a crossdresser" precludes being a woman (a ts woman) that's how this thread got started...many repressed ts folks start out cd'ing...like me...so if i seem defensive...sorry :o i know i did it to myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
actually i still think its a good analogy, its not a big deal...but my paraphrase was unfair to her.....she was not saying she "became a woman" at the end, although my comment made it seem like she did...Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
she was talking about the legal and physical transition itself, not the mental part...she thought the transition phase consumed her and she lost sight of important things...but she was also very happy she did it....
by the way, i read a book by annie dillard called "for the time being"...very cool book about life as a journey that on one level is pretty depressing, but i think in the end i found it very uplifting. i think it would be interesting to you based on some of your posts.
agreed. what's the question? it's just shorthand, cmon, you knew what i meant...jeepers ....i'm getting picked apart!!! :sad:Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
...the dawning on me that my constant desire to be a woman was around since i was a little kid, it manifested in lots of dressing, but as i realized it was something different than the clothes, that i was feeling MORE out of place as a man than ever, that i couldnt seem to focus on anything else...this is when i started to open up to the fact that i really did feel i was a woman ....THIS WAS the traumatic event...it felt like a torrent coming out of me....it was the OMG moment and i started thinking of my kids and my job and everything about my life....there was no other traumatic event, things were going great...i was really doing a good job keeping this all under the radar....until i wasnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
wow that 80/20 stat is amazing....i'm in a pretty large therapy group and i've seen some ts folk go back and forth... but not 80/20...and mostly they are doing it for financial or "family " issues though. In the year and a half i've been in my group 2 girls have gone back to "guy mode" and one of those came back to herself....knowing them i am certain they are both women in their own minds..one of my best friends had ffs years ago and then freaked out over her kids, and untransitioned for a couple months...she restarted her transition though and is just doing great and is a great girlfriend to me..
that was just my inner dialogue at the time...thats how i thought of it...i was saying guys dont do this.......and so i felt ashamed and guilty when i thought of being a woman...i didnt distinguish between CD/TV/TS at time but i still felt guilty and ashamed....Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
and i cant wait to have sex without a penis !!!
by the way, u mentioned what you did to be one of the guys
I did all that drinking and drugs you missed out on...but i missed out on the group masturbation.....:D
and frankly i'm still very sad and bitter about some of the things i went through as i repressed myself.
i know. i know, i know....i'm an obsessive, anxious, worrier, with no self esteem what can i say?Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
over the last year, i've accepted more and more "myself"....but this has been a process ....i feel like i still have work to do in accepting myself..i had myself faked out pretty good...and i only started hrt in july, so what i'm finding is i'm having days like today where i feel good and i'm feeling like me...i feel confident and alive/....and moving forward. for example next week i get to do another week of electrolysis!! my 2nd clearing yay!!!! getting the physical part moving is very helpful to me on the mental part of my transition.
other days, i get to overthinking everything, i feel overwhelmed and question myself or start worrying about things out of my control (like that i'm 6'2 -and will be a freak) and as you said, dysphoria haunts me and other stuff gets in my head and i forget that i am starting out on what is my true meaning in this world...i'm afraid of the consequences of changing my outside gender, i am my own worst enemy..there!! i admitted it!!:eek:
and for the record...i feel that not knowing if you are cd or ts or something in between is perfectly reasonable...just like "knowing" it is, i've said it before, this is not easy stuff and we were raised in different cultures and circumstances that impacted how we coped with things...and that goes for every type of "gender blessed" person out there..we should all stick together and enjoy our diverse and special community
thnx as always for the comments pruella
michele
Y'all have given me so much to think about!!! What a great discussion. Thanks for posting this, I'm in self-discovery mode myself right now, and I'm going to be studying this thread for a while.
Kisses!
KM
i've been avoiding this thread b/c i was worried i might discover i'm not transgender (life is full of doubts), but now that i am sure of myself, and comfortable with saying i long to be a woman, i want to offer a simple piece of information about being trans vs. crossdressing:
being transgender has nothing to do with the clothes you wear.
through and through, being trans is about wanting to be a woman or man, not on a temporary basis while dressed as whichever sex. i went through most of your list of criteria, and found a common thread: clothes/appearance. i feel the breast question mostly mirrors your want to fill out a bra, and feel comfortable while in female form, but it sounds to me like you want to be able to go back to your male side. transgender people rarely want to go back (mostly never, except for monetary reasons). i'd say to anyone questioning his or her gender, if you start to get dysphoric (you'll know when) on a regular basis, and the clothes really don't make the difference, then you might have some more exploring to do.
these thoughts are quite common when gender bending. it's a wonderful discovery of oneself (trans or cd), but also painful and confusing.
to give some perspective on where i stand, i hate it when people ask "how often do you dress," inferring i'm only female by the clothes i wear. i'm female 24 hours of every day, but don't feel the need to prove that all day. this is where i think i differ from many crossdressers. i'm not changing my clothes, i'm changing my body, and that's the difference.
oh, and on a side note, you don't have to put yourself into any gender binary. many genderqueer people express themselves as all genders (not just the 2, mind you), and that is who they are: not male, not female, but just happy with themselves. might be something worth looking into.
oh, one more thing: "born in the wrong body," and "trapped in a ______'s body" are the worst descriptions of being trans i can think of. it's an extreme oversimplification, perpetuated by the media. i have not met one trans person who feels those two quotes describe them implicitly. just doesn't cover everything.
I suspect that what you refer to as "genderbender" is perhaps the term I know alternatively as "genderqueer" or (in its more militant form) "genderf*ck". A couple of my acquaintances (met a few times, good friends of several of the club members) do "tough drag" -- really crazy clothes, drag shows in beards (even if it requires pasting on glitter to imitate beards if they don't happen to have one at the time.) Our fellow forum member Buffalo Bill deliberately goes out in skirt and big beard and has no interest in getting rid of the beard: now that's a real challenge to traditional culture. I don't think he does it to shock, though, and I admire that he is "being himself".... so perhaps that technically places him as "genderqueer" but not as "genderf*ck" (which implies more using gender to make a scene.)Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
I do "gender-bend", at least in the meaning that would be used around where I live -- that is, I do go out in mixed gender mode, such as with my male face and hair (probably with little or no makeup), but wearing a skirt, or wearing a dress... and quite likely wearing forms (C or DD or even G -- while still facially a guy.) Lots of people have seen me that way -- e.g., less than a week ago, I went like that to the "premiere" shopping mall in the city towards late afternoon (fair number of people), and didn't care who noticed that the person wearing the long gray wool skirt was {apparently} male.
A year ago, I took a couple of flights between some of Canada's busiest airports -- and I traveled in long skirts, forms and blouses... on the way back, the blouse was one with "pockets" at the bust, so it was obvious that I (a male) had a "bust". The airlines and safety authority had no trouble with me being like that, and most of the people in the airports didn't pay attention, not even when I was in the male washroom. I got some smiles, and I didn't get any frowns, and some people did small courtesies for me that wouldn't normally be done for males. I wasn't attempting to "fool" anyone, and I got treated with kindness.
I often get treated with kindness when I go out as a guy with something obviously feminine, even when the most obvious "tell" is just my bra showing through my shirt (yeah, including sometimes deliberately on my part, like wearing a white bra under a thin near-white blouse so that the shape will be obvious.)
So in the sense of "genderbender" as someone who deliberately mixes male and female signals, especially female clothes without disguising my head as female, then Yup, I do that. Wearing a simple skirt to the grocery store or off on errand or to the farmer's market feels natural to me. I have an easier time with more or less solid colours: Fancier skirts, more ornate, more flowery, or puffy or multi-layered, or more eye-catching... those are a lot harder for me to wear as a guy (but I would wear my plain black pencil skirt as a guy.) There is a mental filter somewhere in me, that something like a jeans skirt is just a skirt, that a guy like me can wear one and not mean anything by it (other than that he is willing to challenge convention a little), but that some skirt designs are decidedly "female" skirt designs, things that I could wear if I am completely Dressed, but not when I am "a guy". Sometimes I challenge myself by wearing something a bit outside my comfort range (a tactic that worked wonderfully for me for tights under my work or public clothes, that got me well past the idea that all I could wear was plain black or plain brown "which could be mistaken for socks")
If I am not wearing a tight sweater, wearing my DD
forms "as a guy" doesn't make me feel out of place... if anyone notices them, that's fine with me because it feels like the augmented shape is pretty much the shape that I should have, and that what people see there is more the "real me" than if I don't have the forms. When I'm out in public (not at work), even apparently dressed as a guy, a DD to G bust on me is somehow a truth rather than a lie or a fakery... that shape is part of me -- maybe not something I "flaunt" as a guy, but something like, "Heck, let 'em notice, it's just me and they might as well get used to it."
Thus, I differ from a lot of cross-dressers in that I do not train to seem to be as much of a woman as can be acted: having someone know that I am (more or less) a male is not a problem to me, at least not when I am in that mood -- though I'm sure not about to lose sleep over the possibility that I might have somehow convinced someone that the person they saw was female. I don't mind being thought to be female :o -- but at the same time, I am not ashamed that someone might know full well that I am (apparently) male and see me in female clothes with an (apparent) bust. Darn right that "he" wears womens' clothes.
And I've met so many people that think I look good in women's clothes, and whom look forward to seeing what I'll wear next. How could I disappoint my fans? :devil:
I just finished Jennifer Boylan's two books inwhich she describes her journey.Quote:
Originally Posted by micheletv
There is absolutely no question that Jennifer was transexual but she didn't know that early on! She crossdressed for years and constantly tied to discover who or what she was. She even desired for the feeling to go away so she could be a "normal' man.
Putting a test to wether you are or are not poses the danger of setting up an elite groups. That is why I prefer the all encompassing term Trangendered because we are all in this together. It is a course of discovery and we are all somewhere along that path
Kelsy
I PM'd you on the first two blocks - felt it didn't need repeating, but for the sake of others "Me Too"
But then you asked me a question! I was trying to avoid comment!
Yes and No. What a complex paragraph. Here goes:Quote:
Originally Posted by micheletv
You evolved. It's really that simple. Just like learning math or reading, you start with simple individual elements, they are satisfying and you get results, so you want to discover more. (Well some people do!)
It's like cooking. You make a plain cake, the you think if I add Banana, I can have Banana Cake, then you you try Banana and Chocolate, then add more liquids to make self saucing.
It's evolution. You have to have a starting point. Some start at 4 years old and adults say "Awww how sweet, pretending" others avoid any acknowledgment because of the environment they are brought up in, but denial is repression and repressions always impresses eventually.
Depression is common, depressions comes as a symptom of repression. You change your focus from the repression to the depressions and worthlessness, and then you slash your wrists or hang yourself or shoot yourself or just in the frozen river.
You might be lucky, have space to unrepress, but really for what appears to be the majority it's either just as repressing and eventually explodes into a life of expression or transition.
Would I say Being a Crossdresser precludes being a Woman?
I asked the question in a seminar to people mostly not exposed to the TG spectrum on Monday "What is a Woman?"
The answers I got back were all pretty much "The ability to bear a child"
Ouch! Maybe time for a thread :)
Like a hen to the oven! Gravy anyone!Quote:
agreed. what's the question? it's just shorthand, cmon, you knew what i meant...jeepers ....i'm getting picked apart!!! :sad:
Ok I just gotta do this next bit!:
OK, so what does it feel like to be a woman? What base line comparison have you got that we can use? Have you been a woman before? How do you compare a man to a woman?Quote:
<snip> i was feeling MORE out of place as a man than ever, that i couldnt seem to focus on anything else...this is when i started to open up to the fact that i really did feel i was a woman
Interesting questions. Evidently it's not clothes and makeup. These have changed from gender to gender over the centuries. Men use to wear tunics over tights with knee high boots. Now women do. Go figure.
Maybe past lives have something to do with this process, and as we become more enlightened we become more aware of the memories and signals from our individual past lives?
Yep, many stories to tell of all kinds of people. And the Melbourne Transsexual M2F that then become F2M and says the system ruined his life! HIS life! He blames the medical professionals for butchering HIS body. Hmmm.Quote:
wow that 80/20 stat is amazing....i'm in a pretty large therapy group and i've seen some ts folk go back and forth... <snip>
But how do you know guys don't?Quote:
i was saying guys dont do this.......and so i felt ashamed and guilty when i thought of being a woman...i didnt distinguish between CD/TV/TS at time but i still felt guilty and ashamed....
Just look at the 'TV' segment. (Clarification: Guys who dress up for sexual arousal and deny being anything other that Straight.)
They are Macho Men who live life as a man, but hey. What can I say. I really don't want to get flamed again for lack of context.
CD's don't have the denial issue. They might at first, but like TS, it's evolution. It takes time to relearn and to accept yourself, just like anyone else has to accept you.
That almost sounds fetish! or Fantasy! I just can't wait to sort out the inner and outer conflicts I currently have. They are slowly working.Quote:
and i cant wait to have sex without a penis !!!
I guess my issue is, being Intersexed, had I not been modified at birth I might well have accepted both sexes and genders. But there is no basis upon which I can compare.
Maybe in my next life :)
I don't think you should be sad or bitter with yourself. It's a self preservation mechanism, it's perfectly natural for a human to adapt to their environment or perish.Quote:
by the way, u mentioned what you did to be one of the guys I did all that drinking and drugs you missed out on...but i missed out on the group masturbation.....:D
and frankly i'm still very sad and bitter about some of the things i went through as i repressed myself.
I adapted to my environment but as it changed, I was able to readapt. Now I'm evolving :)
The last one you can fix by boiling water :) (Steam get it!)Quote:
i know. i know, i know....i'm an obsessive, anxious, worrier, with no self esteem what can i say?
Obsessive, well, why not be? How can you not be? You like me spent most of our life so far Obsessing about meeting Social Perception. Obsessing so much it become a disorder in it's own right.
Hows THAT for an answer!
Anxious
Comes from fear. Fearing the unknown. The only things you can know are what you experience and what you think. You can KNOW what decision you are going to make and what actions you will carry out, but you can NOT know if that decision and action is going to end positively.
Usually well thought out decisions work positively :)
Obnoxious Oh wait, you didn't say that, you are still denying that part I see.
Worrying This again comes from fear. Not the fear of the unknown but the fear of self doubt about decisions and actions.
Yes, it is. First you have to reprogram all those habits and automatic pilot functions you have put in place over many years. They can't just be switched off in many cases.Quote:
over the last year, i've accepted more and more "myself"....but this has been a process ....i feel like i still have work to do in accepting myself..i had myself faked out pretty good...
OK I went socially from 'sad bloke' to 'happy woman' literally over night, but that's probably more to do with what Plan A was than Plan B.
Thank goodness I chose Plan B.
Yup me too! We should exchange notes :) Hehehe:Quote:
and i only started hrt in july, so what i'm finding is i'm having days like today where i feel good and i'm feeling like me...i feel confident and alive/....and moving forward.
Are mine bigger than yours! *giggle*
As I was getting into the showed my wife said "Wow your legs and bum are really looking so feminine now."
I was looking down and thinking "yeah if only ..."
I had Laser on Friday and was so swollen over the weekend it was quite distressing. I will have to discuss this with the clinic because I have never had such a bad reaction. I even have small flakes of skin falling off and still have tender spots.Quote:
for example next week i get to do another week of electrolysis!! my 2nd clearing yay!!!! getting the physical part moving is very helpful to me on the mental part of my transition.
Then again, it may well be perfect. It is finally starting to feel softer and less shadowy again. Even though my shadow was very very limited till mid Jan. I delayed by 4th treatment.
So does the Cross Dresser who wants to be out in public too. But ...Quote:
other days, i get to overthinking everything, i feel overwhelmed and question myself or start worrying about things out of my control
I'm 6 foot, always wear at least 4 inch heels. Mind you I've seen plenty of 6 foot and above women around the shopping centre. A few I look up to even in heels!Quote:
(like that i'm 6'2 -and will be a freak)
Oh I wish I could be them!
And now you can deal with it! The only thing to fear, is fear itself.Quote:
i'm afraid of the consequences of changing my outside gender, i am my own worst enemy..there!! i admitted it!!:eek:
(Karen, SHUDUP! I know I fear Surgical procedures! But it ain't getting me to SRS any fast!)
I really don't see it as an issue, for the individual.Quote:
and for the record...i feel that not knowing if you are cd or ts or something in between is perfectly reasonable...
But what has been said by Tess and a few others now, is that it's important to them to define themselves to other people.
I agree. And I spent an hour trying to explain the Gender Spectrum to a group of Student Counselors on Monday!
We constantly hear "I don't believe in labels" and then in the next sentence "Well I'm a Crossdressing Bi Male"
Labels Counter: 3
- Crossdressing
- Bi
- Male
Some TS's are worse!
Look at me: TS M2F IS Lesbian 'Hermaphrodite' Woman with Male Attributes too.
Labels: 7 :)
Yeah right, I wish! The problem comes down to label interpretation, some people thinking they are better than others, a lack of tolerance within the diverse community itself because as more people make more connections, more intolerance is going to arise.Quote:
<snip>that goes for every type of "gender blessed" person out there..we should all stick together and enjoy our diverse and special community
I think you will find it's mostly men who are asking this question. It will be TV Fetishism men, or just plain men who are jaded in their marital relationships.Quote:
Originally Posted by gagirl1
Here's my list:
If you fit any of these groups don't contact me:
1. I'm a straight married male who's wife doesn't know I date T-Girls and I like sucking ****,
2. I'm a Straight Married Male who wife doesn't know I dress, and can meet you but in Drab only
3. I'm not gay or Bi, married, wife doesn't know, don't want to suck but like being sucked by a girl with a big clitty
4. I'm a TS and like meeting people, my wife doesn't know and I'll be coming with a beard in a shirt and trousers
5. I'm a TS, I want to meet other TS's who can bring clothes and makeup to help me look like a woman
6. I can only come to your place on Wednesday night between 8pm and 9. My wife doesn't know.
7. If I can't come to your home and meet your wife, kids and family and you say you are TS
8. I'm Interesexed so fast track my SRS so I can have sex with a hot guy next Friday night and find out what its like to be a woman
Here's my next big list:
1a. ARE YOU DRESSED? Of course I fookin am, I'm as close to as TS as an IS person can get.
Not to mention I don't want to get arrested when I go shopping.
1b. DO THEY KNOW YOU DRESS? Yes of course my family does, my daughters pick my clothes and shop with me.
And my partner and I share the wardrobe, I buy, she steals. Really.
1c. ARE YOU GOING DRESSED? I'd be arrested if I was naked.
2. WHAT ARE YOU WEARING? Usually CLOTHES, again I'd prolly get arrested without them.
3. COME STAY IN MY HOTEL ROOM? Sure is it the Honeymoon or Presidential Suite - with Spa!
4. Yes I can accommodate RG/GG's only. Unless you like children jumping all over you.
5. Do you go out dress? Well yes, besides the fact I'm a WOMAN, I do go out dressed.
6. Does your partner mind you dressing? We share a wardrobe, HELLO, did you read the profile below?
How many of those have you heard?
That would be Transsexualism not Crossdressing. So yes I agree.Quote:
i'm female 24 hours of every day, but don't feel the need to prove that all day. this is where i think i differ from many crossdressers. i'm not changing my clothes, i'm changing my body, and that's the difference.
Although one question: How do you PROVE you are female?
I totally agree. Although many Transsexual fore bearers have this on their web sites and in their published books.Quote:
oh, one more thing: "born in the wrong body," and "trapped in a ______'s body" are the worst descriptions of being trans i can think of. it's an extreme oversimplification, perpetuated by the media. i have not met one trans person who feels those two quotes describe them implicitly. just doesn't cover everything.
I think the phrase has been taken as a means of 'description' for simplification. Mind you, I hear it from many 'newbie' TS people who are in midlife crisis and just want to have, or need, an extreme event to shake them up a bit.
Although I think SRS is a bit too extreme if you ask me!
Crossing the gender divide and living that life for a few years is harmless, really.
Although, I am STUNNED as to the number of 'Men' who claim to be M2F, want to "live 24/7 as a woman" and yet refuse to cook, clean the house, change nappies, take the kids to school, do the grocery shopping, and beleive it or not - PREEN themselves every day! Well why should they, they have a wife to do that! They can chat online to blokes about penis and breasts!
Yup, I find it amazing that many of this evolving category are so focused on needing Breasts and loving their penis!
Someone will want to challenge me on this, if you do, PM me and I'll email you THOUSANDS (literally) of chatlogs. Most are from the last 12 months, an exponential growth. I can even give you the profiles of these people from when I first chat to them! Waste of time, mine, and yours!
These people are NOT Crossdressers or Transsexuals!
I doubt they even fit into the TG spectrum other than 'fantasy' and more likely to need a GLB support group than a TG support group!
They don't have Scottish Ancestry do they ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tess-leigh
pruella, i have no idea how to prove my gender. i bet if you asked alot of cisgender people, they wouldn't know either (assuming they knew that gender isn't about what is in between your legs).
hi... my back ground is scottish. name . Loch-head .. head of the loch . that all so means i can wear a kilt ...that is a part of my back ground ...a birth right if you like . that as a male is mine to take or be given .
on the other detail i am a women as well . andro. a transfemale . who will all ways be in transition knowing i can never ever be a male or a women . yet being both .
where does that put me . some one who will allways be different . . yet haveing been able to function as a male for some 50 years not a real male in some ways. yes . not every thing .........i am wired both male & female . i see things both ways as i did 45 years ago . not that i understood what was going on even at 10 i was different . so its all ways been there .
Now .. i know i can live as a women as far as i can go . body wise i was happy with my body in the main as a male this is the hard bit i saw some things that i was not sure about the water works dept . yet i did not have my womb a delema . yes this then starts to sound contray . because i am thinking both ways at the same time ..try that on & see how hard that is then youll know what we go through . for some its i am a male i need to be a women its not like as has been said . a mid life crisies . for me thats bull ......shit .....i have had that leveled at me so i know ....no this is from birth well. conception really ..so we have other detail to go through .
what i see is this only came out to me 2 years ago so now i have got it right . 59 years to get to know who i am & be able to live as me ... no one told me . no one said oh you are this or that . i mean ...NO...ONE...this came from in side , of me
So the ?? s . are.. do we know really when asked who or what we are . some do others of us we dont for a very long time & it would be very worng . for us to assume that . we can help i know that ..oh dear this is & can of worms not one to be taken lightly.. what we need to remember is our lives are so different ....our back ground .s countys so much is different .. i am not a fan of the labels . what i see is people who are .. hopefully not like me .. who are different . & we can live as one group of people getting to know others & learning about who we are .......
...noeleena...
So yes our understanding of who we are is now . how we get there that will depend on us as individuls .
And today at a seminar I was running to 6 women and 1 male, I asked just that!Quote:
Originally Posted by gagirl1
And you know what!
Initially all the superficial perceptions were put forward, then there was 'but what about hysterectomy, or infertility or penectomy or ..."
The conclusion from the 8 Human Resources team was that Gender is so ambiguous it doesn't and perhaps should not be used as a means of segregation or identification, at the very least in a work place.
However that did not answer the question! Just how to deal with the symptoms of Gender!
I've got another seminar in a few weeks, this bunch was really lively! So I'll hit them with the question again, out of curiosity more than anything else.
I can tell you one thing though, the organization I'm providing the seminars for is really open and welcoming. The attitude and response to questions, even the hard ones I put to them, were really positive.
They already have a great attitude to start with so giving broad knowledge and keys to things has been really positive.
Pruella your seminars sound amazing! I applaud you for what you are doing for the community, it sounds very positive! Thank You.
But you sound bitter and I feel like maybe you are letting a handful of bad experiences cause you to be quick to stereotype and define people and put them in your preconceived categories.
I myself live in a state of in between, I remain living as a guy because part of me can feel so good this way,I am a fitness trainer, I'm great at what I do, I enjoy my job, my friends, my girl, life is pretty chill and pretty cool.Other times I feel so overly feminine, so relaxed like a deep of fresh air, I feel unbelievably natural, I am Jacinda,This is me. Feeling this way at times feels so perfect ....but it will get to a point when I miss feeling Tall,Strong,Hard,Sexy,Confident, Just Chillin and Kicking Ass!
What am I?Who am I?How do I define this thing called my life?
Pruella I'm sure you have an answer but for me I don't like the choices.I have a strong feminine energy flowing through my blood but I'm also the Tall Cool One and I'm built to please!
making a choice.....one gender without the other would be an awful experience
I need both
we can be happy if we let ourselves be
J
A true story:Quote:
Originally Posted by noeleena
One fine Saturday relatively early on in my Crossdressing career, I went to a moderately busy downtown park dressed in a short skirt (not scandalously so though), and a not-very-thick long sleeved top with decidedly female sleeves, and I had two layers of "add a cup inserts" taped to my chest... with the thinness of the top, if I was upright, the projection of the forms was distinct (but not large) -- you know, "boobs". I was (and I admit it) having an adolescent-type sexual rebellion day, where I wanted to be seen and thought of as an attractive woman (though I was in my early 40's at the time). I don't know whether anyone thought I was good-looking (in any way), but it was exhilarating.
On the Monday, at work, one of my co-workers approached me, and said approximately, "I saw you on Saturday in the park; you crossed right in front of me", describing the time and location that left no doubt in my mind that he had indeed seen me pretty clearly. :eek: And he then followed up by saying (approximately) that "You must have been practicing your Scottish heritage", to which I replied, "Uh, yah, something like that." And that was that -- he's never mentioned it since, and if he ever mentioned it to someone else, it never got back to me.
Now, that skirt I had on wasn't even close to a kilt, and he didn't mention the top at all, so he must have seen it for what it was and chosen to just tease me a little about it.
My Scottish heritage: yes, my father's mother's side was Scottish, and I inherited some of my basic body type from her -- if you have ever heard the expression "big boned", then that's me! But no, I haven't ever worn a kilt: a real kilt requires a well-practiced effort to put on. Besides, we are still not certain which tartan I'm entitled to.
The femme surname I use is one of the real surnames from my father's side of the family.
It may not always be that clear-cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
Have you ever, as IS, felt you were dysphoric?Quote:
Gender Dusphoria is such a weird term. Crossdressing is a psychological need, maybe sometimes a want.
Just because people don't express themselves fulltime, it doesn't mean they only feel that way part-time; it's always dangerous to generalise, or to label others?Quote:
Unlike a TS. A TS can't be 'part time' it's and all or none situation. Someone could be Androgynous TS, whishing to change genital structure, but still retain the expression of both genders. Just like an IS :)
If you're going to tell a genetic woman who can't have children that she's 'not a woman', please let me know so I can make sure I'm not around at the same time... :hiding:Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
So are you a chimera/mosaic? How did you come to find out?Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
Or are you XXY or XXXY?
Don't anyone here accuse Ms. Pruella of anything. She's realistic, and no dummy.
This is why I keep calling for some more categories.
Damnit Nikki! I reply to you in the next message! Multiquote doesn't like requoting!
Hey!! I'm not a Category! *giggle* I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan pure
Thanks for the compliment. They came about because some students had a go at me in the street one day. I called the college to complain. They wanted me to come in an ID the kids and then refer to the police. I said "Give me 2 hours in a room with them!" So now I'm educating people on, well to be honest, most of it is common sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tgirl74
I have to admit, I've been so welcomed in the administrative departments, it's quit a weird feeling going in with the attitude of "educating people on acceptance" when they are already accepting, so I've had to adjust my seminar to a more discussion style how a TS might feel, how you might feel, and some general knowledge.
I wish I'd recorded yesterdays seminar cause at one stage something triggered me into the spiel of of SRS works. The guy was screwing up his face in sheer agony, the women were all smiling and completely supportive.
I have my bitterness, but that's in my personal mind, not my professional. I am one of those people who can leave 'personal' at the front door when leaving home.Quote:
But you sound bitter and I feel like maybe you are letting a handful of bad experiences cause you to be quick to stereotype and define people and put them in your preconceived categories.
On the same token, there are to some degree categories for everything. Humans work on 'filing' things in boxes mentally so it's important to be able to guide people to find a 'best fit' otherwise they try and put square pegs in round holes!
My experiences are my power, my adaptability and my passion. Be they negative or positive, even the worst negative can be turned into a positive. I often do Damage Control for corporates or celebrities and turning negatives into positives is always critical!
See I'm trying to give that option an opening. Although I think the outcome is inevitable the mere fact I was repressed by hypnosis and psychological therapy for so many years has perhaps caused an extreme inverse reaction. So I'm giving myself time, but at the same time, making myself a future.Quote:
I myself live in a state of in between, I remain living as a guy because part of me can feel so good this way,
I've NEVER in my life felt male. I've always had to extrapolate how a male would act or react and then fall into that stereotype. It never felt good, ut I never understood why.Quote:
<snip>but it will get to a point when I miss feeling Tall,Strong,Hard,Sexy,Confident, Just Chillin and Kicking Ass!
How about being BOTH physically at the same time?Quote:
making a choice.....one gender without the other would be an awful experience
You're wife wanting penetrative sex whilst your uterus contracts and sheds you have a period!
Ovulation this week, my cycle got screwed up with my hormone fudging last month :( I'm a ship wreck one minute and a Pixie the next.
Of course not. As I have expressed some CD's are Borderline TS and versa. That intersect in my opinion would be quite difficult to deal with, but I'm sure those who are on that intersect thrive in their expression and passions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
That's a tricky question. I guess for 12 months from the time I learned about being IS and that I had been lied to all my life, then discovering all the therapy and medical interventions, I felt totally confused and lost, fall into a very very seriously dangerous depression whilst other intense stressful things were taking place and I was mentally and physically exhausted.Quote:
Have you ever, as IS, felt you were dysphoric?
So I made a choice, change me or change the world. Changing the world was not what most people would consider a fair decision. So it was left to change me.
Depends. Most of the CDs I have great friendships with are very much part time. Friday afternoon to Monday Morning. They aren't in the closet as such, their work colleagues know about their playfulness, some have had encouragement to 'bring her to work' on occasions. But one friend told me very specifically her CD personality is her social life, not her work life and she loves it that way.Quote:
Just because people don't express themselves fulltime, it doesn't mean they only feel that way part-time; it's always dangerous to generalise, or to label others?
I do not thing a TS however can be 'part time' because transsexualism is so much more than just the clothes. Crossdressing isn't as physiological. It may be psychological, but its hardly a 'crisis' psychology. If anything a CD's crisis is not having the freedom and acceptance to 'switch' as they wish. Something I greatly support and encourage because for every CD that plays the gender boundary socially, a TS can be less focused on 'passing' and ore focused on living. If you get what I mean.
I sure will never say such a thing! I use that as an example for people when asking them to define a Woman, or a Man. And I use physiological and medical 'catastrophes' to make anyone who defines a woman as 'child bearing' or a man as 'with penis' to reconsider.Quote:
If you're going to tell a genetic woman who can't have children that she's 'not a woman', please let me know so I can make sure I'm not around at the same time... :hiding:
Yes I am, it seems. I found out when I got rushed to hospital one day an orange/green colour with no feeling, no vision and no hearing. They did some basic tests and sent me home saying the tests were contaminated. I took the results regardless. Four weeks later it happened again, but I wasn't in a foreign country this time. SO just had to deal with it.Quote:
So are you a chimera/mosaic? How did you come to find out?
Four weeks after that, it happened again and this time I went to a private doctor. He did the same tests, came back with the same results: Estrogen and Menses in the urine. I said too coincidental, he said lets so some more tests. So took some needles - which I HATE and an still traumatized by - and took 7 samples. Four came back XX 2 came back XY and one came back contaminated.
Then he conducted some limited (because of my circumstances) physical and internal inspections and discovered post operative scaring.
Fortunately not. If what I am is in fact fortunate?Quote:
Or are you XXY or XXXY?
So far I've only found 6 other people in the world who are similar to me. I'm sure there are hundreds more, but finding them is challenging :) Assuming any know!
One girl I know only found out 2 years ago when she was in a car accident and they opened her up to stop internal bleeding and discovered ovaries. Eeeeps! I think I'd have gone into a coma!
hi... nice one Tess-Leigh . oh the tartan. not sure on that at all i know we had one may be one day ill see it .... nice to know we have a few scots on board ....
...noeleena ...
I've always felt 'different' from others in that I've never understood the male/female dichotomy - especially the clothing 'rules' !
Although I always wanted to wear more 'girly' clothes, I didn't start doing that openly until I was about thirty.
Over the years since then I've grown more confident with my dressing although I've never tried to 'pass' - a shaved head and beard tend to give clues !
I've suffered from depression for many years. :sad:
I've also taken the COGIATI test a few times - every time being classed as Androgynous.
Some years ago, after much research I started using Estraderm patches and Spironolactone to grow breasts - which are now a nice 36b. :D
The drugs have brought unexpected psychological benefits - I feel more balanced and happy with myself.
I do NOT want to transition.
I feel uneasy where people who have a 'femme' name etc are concerned.
Last November I went to see a Gender Dysphoria specialist who told me I was transsexual (although I prefer to 'categorise' myself as a male lesbian - someone who would probably have been better born female, and is only interested in females).
That visit seems to have had a profound effect on me - I'm calmer and less worried about what others think. I have a better idea of what I am. I'm also more likely to wear girly clothes day-to-day.
The annoying thing is that because I don't want to transition, I can't get any support from the NHS and I'm not covered by any of the employment discrimination laws. :Angry3:
What am I ?
To me, I am me. A person who is genetically male with larger than usual (for males) breasts. I dress as I want to dress - I enjoy being girly, and I don't particularly care what other people think. If they judge me on my appearance, they're usually wrong and probably not worth knowing anyway :)
Does my girly dress sense (on which girl friends have complemented me) make me unworthy of the society we live in ? - no !
Does society's reaction to me alienate me and cause me to relish it's impending downfall ? - in general, yes !
Luckily I have many friends, all of which treat me the same whether I'm wearing jeans and t-shirt or skirt and knee boots !
If I have any advice for anyone, it's just be yourself. I know from my own experiences that sometimes that's a lot easier to say than do but after spending many years on this path of self-exploration and knowledge, I can honestly say that it's worth it - even though I might not agree when I'm feeling down (a state I'm experiencing less and less !).
Where others are concerned, encourage people to ask questions if you can - not only will that help them understand, it also helps you.
Sorry if this appears a bit disjointed in places but for me it's such a big subject that it's sometimes difficult to mention all I want to and still be concise. One day I will start writing that book !
Then it sounds like you do suffer dysphoria - discomfort with seeing yourself as male, or with having a male anatomy, or with being treated as male, socially - or a mixture of these?Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
IME the difference between 'CD' and 'TS' is not frequency, but the intensity of these feelings - there is a wide spectrum, it's not a clear-cut division between the two - which is why I prefer TG or trans as a description of us all?
IME, it's not uncommon for this to be found during SRS - genetic testing is still v.rare. However I have two good friends who definitely are Klinefelter's (i.e. XXY). Neither would identify as TS, although both have lived some of their lives as men, some as women - one has fathered children? :)Quote:
One girl I know only found out 2 years ago when she was in a car accident and they opened her up to stop internal bleeding and discovered ovaries. Eeeeps! I think I'd have gone into a coma!
It's kinda hard for me to say to be honest, I've had a lot of trauma and 'therapy' so it's been a bit of an eye opening ride the last couple of years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
I am trying to convince myself as a base line that my body is what I have and I should accept it. Just as any disabled or birth 'deformed' person does.
My issue is that having had surgical procedures as a child, my body has already been modified to suit a gender perspective and I think this is the issue I'm struggling with. I really do not have MY BODY, I have what someone created for their own personal needs. (Which might be more sinister now than I expected.)
I don't mind sex as I am, I enjoy sex, to a degree. I do not enjoy "90 second sex" I really like a total sensual experience - maybe that's the issue - avoiding the genitals till the last minute when my whole body has entered into a sensualised state? Interesting thought.
I have for the last yea felt very strongly "wrong" in the genitals, so maybe the physical dysphoria is growing rapidly. It's something I have to watch very close because I can become quite extreme if there isn't balance.
Call it intensity if you wish, but is it not really a CDs desire to express temporarily (in most cases) a feminine persona, or merely just to 'dress' for relaxation purposes?Quote:
IME the difference between 'CD' and 'TS' is not frequency, but the intensity of these feelings - there is a wide spectrum, it's not a clear-cut division between the two - which is why I prefer TG or trans as a description of us all?
A TS doesn't 'dress' or try and express a feminine persona for a short time or just for social outings, a TS lives permanently in the state of mind -v- body confusion, a hostile debate that something is not right in the whole physiological construct of themselves which creates conflict and identity crisis.
I know that for the week that we changed countries, I 'DRABed' for the flight and first few days. I was anxious about 'coming out' again in a new place. Immigration laughed at my visa photo cause it's totally feminine, whereas my passport photo is older and very not feminine. She said "You don't look like your visa photo, do you need to change?" with a smile and advised that I really should not have been afraid to enter as who I am, only a few jerk Immigration people will do the wrong thing and they get sorted out very quickly.
So there's some advice for traveling to some parts of the world.
But that DRAB week was intense. VERY VERY intense for me. I was moody, unhappy and felt I was projecting a lie and a fraud. There is more to my 'new life' story and having to in some ways 'come out' again because of my wife and her 'rules' but after the reasons for those rules expired, things were much better, for me and my mental state.
I may simply be reacting very strongly to having been forced to create a life time appearance that was not congruent with my relaxed mind.
I also had an issue of 'acting' in the stereotypical male expressions, both in the work place, what I did, how I talked etc. It has in some respects, upon reflection, made me a very good Actress. Although when I played a Transitioning TS role in a film last year, I was uncomfortable at the time of shooting the male parts and even watching it gives me the creeps.
However, I realise to be a successful Actress I have to play characters and sometimes they will conflict with my beliefs, my values and my gender. So I am training myself to enjoy the fact I can do these fascinating roles!
Hey if Cate Blancette can play Bob Dylan why should I complain!
I ma trying to work out now, if I can be comfortable with my body as it is for the most part and my social appearance as it is. I suspect as each day passes this is not the case, but at least I can think about this carefully.
It's pretty rare for Klinefelter's people to have the ability to have children, be they male or female. But it's not unheard of. Just like it's pretty rare for XX/XY people to be totally fertile in both sexes. Some are not at all, some are half and half and one other I know like me is totally both ways. We call it the 'Twin' Syndrome :)Quote:
IME, it's not uncommon for this to be found during SRS - genetic testing is still v.rare. However I have two good friends who definitely are Klinefelter's (i.e. XXY). Neither would identify as TS, although both have lived some of their lives as men, some as women - one has fathered children? :)
XXY people tend to be pretty comfortable in their 'birth' gender and rarely have the issues of Transsexualism. They are just 'men' or 'women' and quite comfortable as that. No doubt there are some some who are TS.
Intersexed doesn't necessarily mean a person is Transsexual or a Crossdresser. It just means they have chromosome variants to the gender norm of XX or XY.
None of us are deformed - we are variations, which is exactly how nature always works? It's only certain societies which can't cope with that..Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
If there is a spectrum, then, plainly, some people will fit those descriptions - but many others will experience a mixture of the feelings/behaviours you describe.Quote:
Call it intensity if you wish, but is it not really a CDs desire to express temporarily (in most cases) a feminine persona, or merely just to 'dress' for relaxation purposes?
A TS doesn't 'dress' or try and express a feminine persona for a short time or just for social outings, a TS lives permanently in the state of mind -v- body confusion, a hostile debate that something is not right in the whole physiological construct of themselves which creates conflict and identity crisis.
Behaviour exhibited 'temporarily' does not mean the underlying condition isn't full time?
Was that your trip to the UK?Quote:
I know that for the week that we changed countries,
Many IS people would not wish to be seen as part of the trans community, certainly - however there are some who identify as trans who discover they are IS (it is a conditon which isn't normally looked for, unless there are obvious anatomic markers)?Quote:
XXY people tend to be pretty comfortable in their 'birth' gender and rarely have the issues of Transsexualism. They are just 'men' or 'women' and quite comfortable as that. No doubt there are some some who are TS.
Intersexed doesn't necessarily mean a person is Transsexual or a Crossdresser. It just means they have chromosome variants to the gender norm of XX or XY.
Of the two XXY people I spoke of, one has yo-yo'ed between living as a man and as a woman, but is now trying to live as male with the benefit of testosterone injections.. The other lived the first half of her life as a man, married, had kids, served 22 yrs as a soldier - but when her breasts started to grow on their own, started to live and work as a woman, had SRS and has lived with a man for the last four+ years? :)
Gulliver, you simply can NOT call yourself MALE LESBIAN. It's a total oxymoron and you will find yourself very seriously marked as a fantasist and shunned.Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliver
The term Lesbian is very very clear it meaning - it means a Female that engages in homosexual sex.
As you do not have Female Genitals and you do NOT intend to transition to such, you can NOT use the term lesbian.
It is accepted to be a Transsexual Female Lesbian. Even in Post Operative status, however to Practice being Lesbian without the right genitals is not going to happen.
If you were better born as female and only interested in females then you are a Transsexual.
However if you maintain your male body and the concept of male penetrative sex, and you only engage in sex with women using your penis, then you are a Straight Male.
You can NOT have lesbian sex. It's a physical impossibility based on what you have said. And just because you have B Cup breasts does NOT make you a woman.
Sexuality and Gender are NOT the same so you can't be, nor can you have the term: a Male Lesbian.
Sexual Orientation is entirely based on physical gender. Gender is not based on sensual orientation.
Sorry to be brutal on this point but it is, to me anyway, quite offensive for men who succinctly enjoy male penetrative sex with no intention of transitioning to the female genitals to be going around saying they are lesbian. It's damaging to the Lesbian community who also continue to struggle for legal and social acceptance in many parts of the world.
I am not sure what you should call yourself, given your unusual dysphoric description. Like me, I think you fall outside the social boxes.
Do a search here and see just how many times the term comes up.. It's in fairly common usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
And you really think lesbians don't engage in penetrative sex? :rolleyes:
Well I did put 'deformed' in quotes for the reason that it's a term used to create a prima facie perception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
Mermaid Syndrome is considered a deformity, yet the kids with the Syndrome are fascinating in themselves.
Getting into a very clinical area now. Because once a behavior is exhibited, the body may have received what it needs to not continue exhibiting behavior for a time.Quote:
Behaviour exhibited 'temporarily' does not mean the underlying condition isn't full time?
Again, a TS exhibits a permanent 'full time' need of comfort to represent their minds gender and adapt to that. Whereas a CD usually doesn't. There really isn't any such thing as a Part Time TS - simply because Transsexualism is a congenital 'abnormality' where as Crossdressing is either a desire, or sometimes a psychological issue.
Abnormality as in the terms of stereotypical social acceptance.
Psychological Issue does not mean the person has a negative concern. I have said elsewhere that a Crossdresser with psychological need to 'dress' should be encouraged and embraced, for ooooh so many positive reasons.
Two pats there:Quote:
Many IS people would not wish to be seen as part of the trans community, certainly - however there are some who identify as trans who discover they are IS (it is a conditon which isn't normally looked for, unless there are obvious anatomic markers)?
1. IS people don't want to be associated with the 'Trans' community because all too often it's seen as negative. Trans in some places is seen as Transvestite and seedy. Fortunately the term Transgender being abbreviated to Trans is HELPING dramatically resolve that, but we all need to educate people as we go through the day.
2. Yes there appear to be a number of Transsexual people who discover their IS condition by accident, either through life tragic event or at Surgical investigations.
There are, unfortunately, many people who are going onto the Transsexual program claiming they are intersexed and simply preaching what they have read on the net as a means to convince people as they go through the process. Fortunately they get discovered in due course, but it does waste extremely limited and valuable resources.
That's kinda strange in typical respects. XXY people usually don't have gender variations of that nature. XXY is quite a nasty think to have really.Quote:
Of the two XXY people I spoke of, one has yo-yo'ed between living as a man and as a woman, but is now trying to live as male with the benefit of testosterone injections..
Again that's quite unusual for an XXY person too. Given, it is 'said' that 99.9% of XXY people are infertile. Although I come across quite a few who are not. So I won't be hasty.Quote:
The other lived the first half of her life as a man, married, had kids, served 22 yrs as a soldier - but when her breasts started to grow on their own, started to live and work as a woman, had SRS and has lived with a man for the last four+ years? :)
XXY is a common 'throw' from TS people who try to use a physical condition to justify their Transsexualism. I know a few XXY people and although they are all different, there are commonalities.
XXY is 'well' known simply because it's the most common form. It's visual at birth in most cases, at least most cases of 'male' births. Female births can be a little more difficult and often don't show up till puberty or attempts to conceive.
One I know is capable of self impregnation, well was, until surgically rectified when he was a young teen at his request.
Personally I am skeptical of anyone claiming to be XXY. It's a club you really don't want to be in because the associated health problems, physically and mentally, in the long term just aren't worth it.
Unless someone has had a Karyotype test, any claim to Intersexed unless they have visual clues, is dubious.
I have found one thing though. The rarer kinds of IS condition people who are actively seeking are highly intelligent. Often play a little dumber than they are, but are usually found in very intense and advanced professions.
I know there are a few on this site :) Me, I just have an IQ greater than Einstein, not that it helps me in any way at all. But we've had the IQ discussion elsewhere and I've said it means little. Autistic people might not have great IQ passing ability but some are just mind blowing!
This is what works for me it may, or may not work for others (Though in another place I said I'd never post in another lable thread)..............
1. There are 3 spectra at work in humans
a. Physical Gender; that which you were born. In almost all Humans this is either male or female. However in Intersex People there are characteristics of both to varying degrees.
b. Sexuality; regardless of Physical Gender, people can be attracted to the opposite sex, the same sex or variations in between.
c. Personal Gender; at one end of the spectrum a person who is 100% comfortable in the gender to which they were born, the other, someone who is transsexual (note the physical gender is irrelevant).
There is possibility of movement on the second two spectra, the first however is fixed at birth unless there is an intervention.
For me, I have seen too many friends who have self-described as Crossdressers or Transvestites who have gone on to transition to believe that one's position on the spectrum is fixed. Some have decided that the full surgical transition is a step too far and simply live in the other gender anyway.
Likewise, some people who have been 100% hetero have found the right person and have been attracted to someone of their own physical gender.
Like Nicki, I think we may be striking a good balance in the UK.
The term Transgender is a blanket one and covers all on the Trans-spectrum, from occasional crossdressers/ transvestites, to 100% full time non-op and post -op Transsexuals. It also covers FTM and MTF equally.
This is where lables are pernicious. Lables are designed by their nature to pin one to a description that is acceptable to others, rarely the person's own perception.
We can't prescribe how another human feels, walking a mile in their shoes isn't enough, we can't get behind the eyes of anther- not with any true accuracy.
So describe yourself as yourself, use the terms that seem to make sense to you and to your audience and try not to insult others along the way. Google has a simple phrase that covers a lot of ground- "do no evil". Maybe we can bear it in mind as the accusations and judgements fly here.
Just because the term "male lesbian" comes up a lot doesn't make it so...
Karen Starlene :star:
Agreed, but as a metaphor to explain to certain audiences what trans is about the statement can be of use. Eddie Izzard has used it in chat shows.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyKaren
When I was challenged by a lesbian about why I didn't fancy men I had to point out to her that she didn't, so why should I?
I'm with Karen.
Just because Blokes call themselves 'Intersexed' doesn't make them chromosome varient. Many use the term to mean "I change my orientation when I dress in womens clothes."
People often wrongly use a term in hope that it will become common. The more people who use it the more accepted it becomes in it's grey definition, or even RE -DEFINITION.
The term Transvestite is a perfect example of this. And WOW does it create flames and abuse when one uses the old definition.
At no time in history has a Transsexual been recorded as being a Transvestite!
Nikki said:You left out Intersexed and Andgrogynes :)Quote:
The term Transgender is a blanket one and covers all on the Trans-spectrum, from occasional crossdressers/ transvestites, to 100% full time non-op and post -op Transsexuals. It also covers FTM and MTF equally.
I do feel, and try and encourage, most Transsexuals who have 'completed' their transition to consider themselves as the relevant common gender definition, afterall this is the goal of that transition process.
I do find many take great pride in being Transsexual. I kinda do in a way, but then I also have Woman, and Intersexed to fall back on :)
See again, the Men fade into the populous whilst many of the women do stand out a little. I guess it's just really good that society today seems to be more and more amblivilent to 'differances' and more focused on living happily.
No change there, then !Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
I wasn't aware that transitioning could give someone female genitals, but that's a moot point.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
Aren't the previous two sentences contradictory?Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
I didn't - and wouldn't - say that it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
That doesn't feel appropriate either - but I can't put my finger on why.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
I try not to call myself anything (except my name !) but society's classifications sometimes help in self-discovery. I am me and I am fully aware that I don't fit any of the boxes completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
Gulliver, I've started a thread on the terms "Male Lesbian" hope over and express yourself! I want to get an understanding on this.
Yes but when a Comedian says "I killed George Bush" that doesn't mean they assassinated President George Bush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiona K
I'm also sure if you take the comedians context of expressing MALE LESBIAN you might find it's in line with "GAY MALE" in the oxymoron sense.
Being a Stand Up Comedian I often coin such terms and phrases to get a laugh. It's part of Gag Building.
It sure doesn't create a truth or a reality.
It's a bit more complicated when you are TS :) Even the M2Fs have the Orientation crisis because of Genitals!Quote:
When I was challenged by a lesbian about why I didn't fancy men I had to point out to her that she didn't, so why should I?
In fact it's worse for the M2Fs cause they can't typically get themselves a nice 7 incher with a 5.5 inch girth.
But then Love isn't dependent on genitals, and most genuine and true Transsexuals learn and accept this, as do a small number of 'conventional' people in relationships.
I personally know of only two people who refer to themselves as intersex - they both describe themselves as having Klinefelter's syndrome (I used XXY for clarity). I have no doubts that's what they are, neither would have chosen to live the lives they have..Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
I know of a further six girls who had anatomical abnormalities discovered during SRS (mostly ovaries). I know of no one, 'bloke' or otherwise, who might be claiming to be IS spuriously - however I have often wondered how much overlap there is between IS (who show physical signs of mixed gender) and TG (who show mental signs of the same thing)?
It's not an old definition - it's a relatively new one. 'Transvestism' was originally coined to describe what we now call TG and yes, it was used for those who are TS..Quote:
The term Transvestite is a perfect example of this. And WOW does it create flames and abuse when one uses the old definition.
At no time in history has a Transsexual been recorded as being a Transvestite!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
No - I didn't.Quote:
Nikki said:
Fi did. :heehee:
It seems to me that, for those of us who are trans, terms like 'straight', or 'gay', start to make little sense - we've already rewritten the rules.
I'm guessing there are health related issues? :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
Yes, I've heard of the occasional like discovery. Usually Intersexed conditions are discovered at birth, at puberty, whilst trying to conceive or at some traumatic life threatening accident. I guess it can also be discovered at SRS, but surely this could be picked up before?Quote:
I know of a further six girls who had anatomical abnormalities discovered during SRS (mostly ovaries).
Hehehe well you aren't hanging around the wrong places then! I realise now I wasted a year of my life having around with blokes :( No wonder I kept outgrowing them.Quote:
I know of no one, 'bloke' or otherwise, who might be claiming to be IS spuriously
TG is a very broad term - Crossdressers? Transvestites? Adnrogeynes? Intersexed? Transsexuals?Quote:
however I have often wondered how much overlap there is between IS (who show physical signs of mixed gender) and TG (who show mental signs of the same thing)?
Do you mean Transsexuals?
TS don't so much show 'mental' signs, but have a brain chemistry that is opposite the physical gender. IS people can be TS, or not. I suspect the number of IS people who are TS is about the same as the number of TS people compared to the perceived normal person.
I don't want to go down this path again. There is way too much history recorded on the origins of Transvetistism and Transsexualism and the creation of the Umbrella Term for all gender variants known as Transgender.Quote:
It's not an old definition - it's a relatively new one. 'Transvestism' was originally coined to describe what we now call TG and yes, it was used for those who are TS..
Even the quote you provided indicates that the term which was adopted by Herschfeld was not a fair term because it was adopted from the already common term of Transvestite from centuries use before that related to sexual fetish.
However he needed a term that would be readily recognized at the time, and would later become Transsexual.
Well that's how I read the history. Prior to that, Transsexuals were considered only to be Hermaphrodites. Which again is not entirely correct, historically or present day.
Language is always evolving, I won't deny that. The problem is when people give so much credence to Truthiness that they forget the truth itself. (Truthiness is a new word created about 5 years ago.)
Yes and no. It makes no sense whilst your brain is, for example, a Woman, and you have a penis, and you act and desire sex like a woman. It's a problem.Quote:
It seems to me that, for those of us who are trans, terms like 'straight', or 'gay', start to make little sense - we've already rewritten the rules.
What about me? For all intents, a Hermaphrodite? Am I gay? Am I lesbian? Am I straight? Maybe I'm Double Straight? Am I Bi?
I'm not attracted to men, I don't love men, I can't fall in love with men.
I am attracted to women, I love women, and I fall in love with and am in love with a woman.
I have more to read, but I love the term "male lesbian." I've met dozens in trannie bars in NY. I know guys whose wives don't mind too much. In fact I've been picked up by girls when I was in a dress a couple of times, and had fun.
What is this, Pruella's couch?
Gulliver I love you. There are a lot of us feminizing but not transitioning. I'm a girl in identification, but not in enculturation. I throw like a boy, but I do swing my hips as I walk.
Fiona, you are onto something. But people lable. That's what we do. I know some guys who live in an almost exclusively gay world in the city and are known and appreciated as "femme-boys." We used to call it gender-bending. Google jackie 60. Limelight in its early days was based in undefinable genders.
Some guy just wrote a book about the fetish community that was reviewed in the Times. I said to myself proudly as I read, "I love being deviant." And I am, and I wouldn't change that I am for anything in the world. Not even for Jennifer Anniston.
M