O....k! does not apply here. Sorry about you gurls that are in that fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue
O....k! does not apply here. Sorry about you gurls that are in that fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue
Well, there are actually three different types of DADT:
1. The "sweep-under-the-carpet" variety where a wife just doesn't want to know or talk about it which forces the husband to go behind her back, wondering when he'll next have a chance to dress.
2. The "above-board" DADT where the husband keeps the clothes openly in the house or in a place that the wife is aware of even if she chooses to not look. The husband does not hide purchases and may even have packages delivered at home and also goes out without having to wait until the wife is out of town. Or if closeted, the wife leaves the house in order to give her husband space and time to dress.
3. The "voluntary" DADT where the husband actually prefers to not dress in front of his wife, either because he feels silly doing this, or his need perhaps isn't as great, although the wife does know about it. If she doesn't know, it's not DADT, it's "lying by omission".
This is one of the best threads on here for a while. In some of the replies I find my wife's attitude in things, eg not watching cd programmes, doing everything her way or no way at all. Which sometimes I feel its my fault I could've been more assertive when we met. When we first met I was in that dip every one goes through not really bothered whether we dress or not. So I didn't really expect it to come back with a vengence, when it did I was surprised.
Since I was found out I'm feel that I've became more passive as if to make up to her and go along with her , as much to avoid situations where we might get into an arguement and everything comes back to the fore.
Wow! - or is that.. Ouch?!, Reine! :eek: :doh: :sad:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I think that you have managed to encapsulate my situation perfectly, and in a far more succinct manner than I was able to do so far. Much food for thought here, and I am really going to have to mull over some of the points you have raised in your reply.
Yes, I do love my wife very much despite all my grumbling here, and deep down inside she loves me equally - if not more. When things are going well, she freely tells me this, affirms that she has never met anyone quite like me (no sh*t! :eek: :heehee:), and that she could not imagine a life without me. We have a very good marriage otherwise, have much in common, and have raised two lovely and accomplished children together. And FWIW, she was a virgin when we got married, so I am her "one and only" in more ways than one. It's just that d*mn, pesky crossdressing thing that she can't get past - especially since it is something that she cannot "control", unlike so many other aspects of her life.
It's not that I want my wife to embrace my crossdressing or evenly participate in it. Given her views on the subject, that would probably be a huge "downer" anyway, even if she could somehow force herself to meet "Leslie" or even see a picture of her.
I guess that at the end of the day, I am just looking for some validation that this is an integral part of me, that it will never go away, and that we should be able to openly talk about it without it always becoming an "issue". Just to hear her say something along the lines of: "You seem very stressed today. Maybe you need some "Leslie" time. How about I go out for the afternoon and you could dress up for a while?" That would be music to my ears, and an acknowledgement that my needs in that regard are both legitimate and "okay". I certainly go out of my way to accommodate most of her needs and idiosyncrasies without giving it too much thought.
Yes, Reine, you are right - I have managed to carve out a great deal of freedom to do what I want (and need) within the confines of our particular DADT arrangement. But I have also had to fight and claw for every one of those concessions in a war of attrition that sometimes resembled the Battle of Stalingrad, where gains were measured in inches, and the fighting was block-by-block, street-by-street, house-by-house, and ultimately room-by-room...
Yes, I may have come out ahead in the process, but at what cost, and why did it have to be such a struggle?
Great thread Leslie. Reine is very wise and always gives good advice. The quote above is exactly how my wife feels. So much so, that is makes me feel the same way about it, and even ruins my ability to enjoy CDing. Currently we are in a DADED mode. "don't ask, don't even do". I would be so happy for a DADT. My wife admits having control issues, but at the same time, this just makes her sick to even think about. I feel very lost, and don't know what the future will be. And like you, I have decided to love my wife and choose to stay with her, because life without her would be pathetic and lonely. But even though we all crave acceptance and validation, sometimes we just have to settle for the consequenses of our choices.Quote:
Probably wishful thinking on my part, but I just wish that my wife would get over the notion that crossdressing is some evil, perverted, disgusting, and depraved activity that "real" men don't indulge in.
The idea that ahusband has a secret personality must be terrifying. I am going to start a thread about this. We need to have ONE personality. All the time. It means taking responsibilty for our actions
Darla, I totally agree with you. Wives are equally afraid of being found out.Quote:
Originally Posted by darla_g
Hello Everyone
This thread Im afraid has captured my attention for some reason or another:thinking:,I wonder why:heehee:
Anyway after doing some reading last night and this morning Ive come to an answer that I will share with my wife the next time I disscuss this with her(which will soon,again Im sure) and pose this answer. I would love to hear your reactions and thoughts to this. It'll the the guidelines I believe of the OP.
"Why do you cause me grief,woman. Did you design and create me? Did GOD give you his divine plan to ponder? Then why do you judge me. All I ask is that you embrace me and love me and not your idealogy.":eek:
Let me know
Thera
Picking up on one of Reine's points and throwing it into my DADT world...
In our early twenties, when I met my wife, we were both very liberal about most things I guess... the bad stuff was blood sports and nuclear weapons, but how should people dress, present, sexual orientation... fantastic.. but we knew we were hetero-sexual and we loved (and lusted after) each other and it was cool. Over the years she has accused me of being a control freak and me her... she only really found out about my CDing a few years ago... most of our marriage I was well in the closet. She would occasionally find something (e.g. the red bra that was not her size), but it never went further... I purged frequently.
We had a series of big rows a few years ago where we very nearly split up (youngest of three aged 18) - we are still together... and I am still CDing, but she doesn't want to know...
My view? It isn't about control (for us), it is that she wants me to be the guy she knows and has lived with all these years, the husband, the father... she doesn't want to see a different person involved in the marriage... She didn't marry Kaz, she married this other guy... and the less I am like him, the less she loves me... simple...
I would love to show her Kaz... and show her how this side is so integral to the person she married, but she does want to know and if I ever sprung it on her it would screw her head I think!
Just my take Leslie...!! It isn't about control it is more about someone's 'mental model'... hence the argument for being honest up front... although I am still suspicious about that for other reasons!!!
Sometimes situations do not lend themselves to negotiations. It takes many years to establish a marriage that will survive cross dressing or any other activity one spouse perceives in a negative way. I know my wife does not approve of cross dressing. Years ago she said she wished she had never revealed her past which by all standards would really make most guys run. During the courting stage you tend to only see the positive and you only display the positives. Everyone tends to hold back on the negatives. Somethings are just DEAL BREAKERS for people. Cross dressing tends to be a deal breaker for almost all women. It violates societal norms. The women feels society will view her in a negative way. There must be something wrong or kinky with her to tolerate it. She is a victim by guilt by association. So, is DADT a bad situation, as long as husband and wife agree to it, implicitly or by the 'ostrich' effect? If you have read my postings over the year or two, I firmly believe husband and wife should set boundaries they both are comfortable with.
My view of terminating the marriage is applicable to situations where an ultimatum is made. To make a person give up who they are is wrong. If the wife wants to watch you take your femme stuff to the burn barrel and watch it burn, then, is that a marriage. I do NOT limit my beliefs to ultimatums about cross dressing. I really detest men who demand compliance from their wives to do nothing but produce offspring, keep the home, and be a 'possession.' Sometimes people just 'wake up and smell the coffee' later than some.
Anyway, given an ultimatum on any issue is wrong. So my recommendation to take the highway still stands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erica2Sweet
Hi Stephanie. I do not disagree with anything in your reply. The part of this subject that fascinates and squicks me at the same time, is the refusal to cave to an inter-marriage ultimatum in those instances where the husband was not honest and forthright about the crossdressing BEFORE the wedding. Then, when the husband settles into "husband status", he at some point experiences an overload of negative feelings about his crossdressing and then confesses it all. Next, the shocked and angered wife not surprisingly says "I won't have it" to which the husband then declares "I won't stand for ultimatums in our marriage!" in a clear attempt to somehow gain her blessing to continue his crossdressing. In this all too common scenario, which one of the two initially caused the problem by being deceitful? Is the moment someone is deep inside the dog house the right time to begin re-negotiating the rules of his marriage? Is crossdressing at that point worth risking the happiness of the children in the house?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie47
Again referring to the scenario above, I just don't see how a man in a committed relationship can honestly believe that he is entitled to acceptance and support from his wife for an activity that he was clearly not even willing to be honest with his wife about, much less be in control of. The reality is that this is most likely how a wife would view the crossdressing in this scenario. In the midst of all this, declaring an ultimatum about ultimatums is probably the last thing that should come out of a husband's mouth if he were smart. She would have the law, public opinion, and morality on her side. What more would she need to be armed with when she headed to divorce court?
Stephanie, I agree with you that there ARE deal-breakers. But I don't quite agree with handling an ultimatum.
There is nothing required of anyone to act on the ultimatum. But if you do choose to act, it's your decision. Your decision to stop crossdressing, or your decision to hit the road. Sometimes it's best to do nothing, and put the ultimatum back in the hands of the issuer, for that person to make the decision (to break the relationship or accept the crossdressing). Also, doing nothing may expose a bluff.
Be careful about issuing an ultimatum. Never offer a choice you don't want someone to take.
No, it wasn't meant as a dig. I just hate to see you distraught over such an impasse and I was trying to determine how important it is to you to have your wife acknowledge Leslie and if it is, you should let her know just how much her non-acceptance bothers you at your core.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
I wasn't sure about the overall health of your relationship and I'm relieved to see that it is good. This means that there is room for discussion on the matter. :hugs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
Have you told this to your wife? I'm reading through your words that you feel as if your wife may believe you to be "less than", and this, more than anything else is hurtful. Please talk to her about this. She needs to know how you feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
Not to worry, Reine - I took your comments as they were intended, and in the context of the constructive and positive feedback that they represented.
I truly appreciate all the time and effort that you have put into your various responses - both to me and the others here who have participated in this discussion. There were some very interesting and sometimes diverse POV's expressed here, and that is what makes this forum so great. We may not always see eye-to-eye, but in the end, we are all there for each other.
Clearly, I struck a chord with many here when I started this thread, and I have received much support from them as well (I guess misery loves company ;)) - and not just in the posts here, but also in some of the PM's sent my way. This thread even triggered a couple of new "Friend" requests, which I also found very touching.
In the end, we all have to sort out our own personal situations by ourselves, and no two are alike. But a forum such as this and the spirited discussions that it fosters gives us the tools to at least make the best decisions possible under the circumstances...
I guess this is why most of us are here... we are all in a strange place... and we are scattered... thank goodness for the web... we can touch each others lives in a way we could never have dreamed of 20 years ago...
Leslie's post started with this:
Are the wives and SO's who try to impose DADT on us fundamentally control freaks...
DADT isn't imposed, it's an agreement, or an arrangement that both parties can live with. It's not her rules, it's agreed-to privileges with agreed-to limitations. If there ever was a DADT agreement, it sounds like Leslie wants out, wanting the privileges without the limitations.
In some cases it may be, but in others it might simply be a wife deciding that it is all too much for her and deciding unilaterally that she does not wish to discuss the issue. If the husband decides not to push the issue then there is a de facto agreement, but without any attempt at compromise.Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
There is frequently an underlying bitterness among CDers in otherwise loving marriages when our wives do not understand our need to dress. In my case there is not even a willingness to try to understand what my wife regards as abhorrent behaviour and a deal breaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillian Gigs
This thread and the posts are all of keen interest to me as I come to terms with the future dealing with what seems a common situation. Many seem to wonder what life would be like out of the marriage and free to follow their heart.
Gillian’s comment relates to something my psychologist said to me that has helped me greatly in understanding my wife and reducing the bitterness I feel in having to deal with “my” problem (CDing) by myself. There is this constant frustration if my wife “totally loves” me, why won’t she at least try to understand this part of me.
As a child, my wife’s parents fought incessantly and she withdrew emotionally. She then was in a 20 year abusive marriage. The psychologist believes that she did not develop beyond the fourth stage of Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development, i.e. a focus on maintaining law and order by following the rules, doing one’s duty and respecting authority.
I therefore don't think my wife sets out to be controling but takes a rules based approach to what people think of her/us and the implications of non-normal behaviour. This has helped me understand her and reduced my bitterness. Of course, it doesn’t help resolve our/my situation and give me comfort about the future.
So do we have a situation of DADT? Does DADT require my wife to know that I dress but doesn’t talk about it? So I fit into Reine's category 1 (post #52) and Eryn's post. It is far from perfect but works for the present. There doesn't seem any hope though of changing her attitude by education and understanding.
Michelle
Yes, Michelle, most likely you are in a DADT situation. She knows you dress, but she is not accepting, doesn't like it, and doesn't want to see it or know about it. But it may be hard to distinguish between DADT and dressing in secret in some cases like yours. Usually, DADT requires her acknowledgement that you need to dress but doesn't want to know about it. If a wife snoops around, trying to find the stash or tries to catch the CDer in the act, that's not DADT because it's not Don't Ask-I don't want to know, and that forces dressing in secret. It may be splitting hairs, but as you said "it is far from perfect but it works for the present."Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle (Oz)
There aren't many perfect marriages. Most of us have to do what works for the present.
The funny part is I'd never dream of demanding that my wife only wear dresses and skirts and not borrow one of my old shirts when dying her hair and use a feminine one instead. I guess it's beyond the clothes. She doesn't understand the desire for me to be feminine. To her that's the wierd part.
No i do not think that they are deep down control freaks, i think that they are deep down controled by the basic instinct that it is natural for a female to be with a male , not everyone can switch this basic instinct off of ignor it .