Do you support Transgender rights?

While I'm right there behind you Paula, (You kick butt, girl!) I think I have identified an undercurrent which matters in this discussion. Not that it changes the discussion, just that it identifies an important dividing line.

"Free to be yourself" (Rights) vs "A snicker free environment" (Acceptance)

I know we want both. I don't need Joe Sixpack to accept me, I just don't want him and his buddies to mug me in an alley.

Acceptance would be nice, but I'd honestly be happy with not being discriminated against. While they are both important goals, they are not the *same* goal.

- MM

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Originally Posted by Katey888

But - how do you draw a line between me and - say - Lucy Bella? There surely are no physiological tests for this, and there probably aren't even any reliable psychometric tests to prove this either...

So...
Can't agree between ourselves...
Can't make it easy for others to understand...
Can't agree on definitions...
Definitions can't be proven with anything approaching anecdotal, let alone, scientific certainty...
We as any sort of community don't have the numbers to swing this anywhere...

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Hey now! lol :)

I think we agree more to disagree .. You are right the closeted Cder has no need for any rights.. We don't care to go out dressed ( we do have getting caught issues but no rights are needed there).. I think everyone has missed my point..

First of all , I did say I will be supportive ( that doesn't mean waving a flag tho ).. Next ,Gender issues are a "way of life" for that part of the T.G. spectrum.. Pleasure Dressing is a" life style" for my end of the CD spectrum ..I think that removing my end would better serve the T.G.s with G.I.D... It sure would clear up allot of society confusion..But that is my innocent humble opinion.. Not meaning any harm in saying that in any other way..

@lucy - I dressed less than you did up until 1 month before I came out to myself. You really don't know where you fall for certain on the spectrum - hopefully you never find yourself in my position realizing one horrible, horrible night "oh shit, I'm a woman."

A year ago, I never thought my life would be like this. I'd implore you to think not that we have nothing in common, but rather "there, but for the grace of God, go I..."

I continue to be amazed by cross dressers not understanding that society and often law clearly restricts their ability to express themselves the way they choose. This is simple.

Male cross dressers want to dress the way that women dress. They do not have protections under the law or the social approval to do this in public. It simply cannot be that anyone has the right to fire you, deny you housing, trade, or any of the perquisites of normal social and economic transactions because of the way you dress. That is a denial of basic human rights. Why would anyone make excuses for any government, employer, friend or lover who denies your right to dress the way you want to? But right now they can restrict that right.

You have no right to wear a dress to work practically anywhere in the world if you are a man and you're not wearing a kilt or a sarong or some other dress socially acceptable for men to wear in whatever culture you happen to be. You can be fired, you can be attacked, you can be harassed, you can be judged without legal or social consequence almost anywhere in the world. In some countries you can be imprisoned and even executed. Yet some people on this board do not seem to understand that we are talking about a human rights issue. That issue is the right to wear any clothes you feel like wearing. What is so difficult to understand?

And I am not even coming close to transgender rights here. I am talking about a very limited issue that cannot be resolved without transgender rights, because even though it looks like just fashion it really is an issue of gender rights. We must have the right to our gender and if that means we express our gender through our clothes, well that is what we do. Gender is not a matter or sex. It is a matter of identity. You cannot tell me I am not a Christian, a Moslem or a Jew. You cannot tell me I am not brown or black because I look white. You cannot tell me I am a man or a woman or neither because of what I have between my legs. Unless you strip search me you actually cannot tell what is between my sex is, which is not the same as my gender or sexual orientation, and frankly, your implicit wish to look at my genitals is kind of creepy.

I choose to wear feminine clothes and nobody should have have the right to stop me. You cannot tell me what my gender is by looking at me. I could be a man wearing women's clothes but happy being a man or I could be a woman wearing the clothes that fit my gender and still have a penis. Or I could be, as I am, neither and both. You must must ask me if you are so damn interested in what my gender happens to be. That is my right as a human being. If you restrict that right you are oppressing me.

That is what transgender rights are.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

@lucy - I dressed less than you did up until 1 month before I came out to myself.

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Okay...So what does that mean?

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

You really don't know where you fall for certain on the spectrum

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I will agree in fact I'll go another step further and say nobody here does .. We can't even agree to a spectrum let alone many of us won't even allow ourselves to be labeled ..It's a very confusing spectrum ,even to a insider.. :)

But I will tell you this Paula with no doubt at all..I have been dressing for nearly a half a century.. I at no time ever thought I was a girl or wanted to live as a girl..Why would I start now? :)

Wear what you want I have no issues at all over that.. NONE.. I must be mistaken over the topic of the original POST of this thread.. I some how must of thought this thread was over T.G. or GID rights and not the simple act of wearing clothing.. That is all I do is simply wear the clothing I have no desire to push my way of dressing on anyone else or on society ..It's my secret and mine alone unless I am here to support other pleasure dressers other that that, it's a private matter..

@lucy - it means I could, and did say the exact same things as you just did - until one day, I could not. :(

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Originally Posted by Rogina B

So forum members,you may have now,or could have later,"a dog in the fight"...Have you chosen to support the advancement of Transgender rights since you are telling us here on the forum how important gender expression is for you? Replies are welcome from "all sides" of this forum!

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To stay on topic I can see where you are coming from Paula by suggesting that last reply..Your " way of life "is based as a individual need rather come late or early in life...I appreciate and respect your warnings to me of the events that lead you to now..

But honesty ,unless I am denying myself ( and I know 100 percent I am not ) I will continue being the old pervert I am..Trust me I have thought this out and I do not ever see myself living any other way of life I enjoy my male self ...I wish you the best ..I also wish you happiness through and during your new path of being who you truly feel you should be you have my support..

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Originally Posted by Rogina B

You don't mention discrimination at all,which surprises me.Human rights should include sexual and gender identity as well,don't you think? In housing,in the work place,etc. Nothing special,just being included in the laws... Most people on this forum are in a pretty good place in life and often have no clue as to the devastation that discrimination cause to a person's life. Most of the TS girls on here are in a pretty good place as well as many are still earning in their original occupations.However,there are many others that have been driven from the workplace,down a slippery slope,to a place in life that is hand to mouth survival,and people on here tend to forget those "T"s,many of whom would still be in their former workplace if not for their employer's right to discriminate.

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Rogina, my point is not to exclude a group, but to include everyone. Meaning, when you name a group as being deserving rights based upon status, you inevitably discriminate against others who are not members of the group. Discrimination is unconstitutional at any level. Laws that treat someone who is a TG or TS differently are unconstitutional. An employer who fires someone for exhibiting another gender leaves themselves open for civil liability. I don't for a second think that people are not discriminated against for gender, preferred gender, sexual preference, race, etc. I just want all individuals protected.

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Originally Posted by Ms. Alexis

"Gay Rights" have become a catch all for promoting an agenda

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What "agenda" is that? The advocacy of cultural acceptance and normalization of non-heterosexual orientations and relationships?

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

If you are tired of living like this - having your harmless secret overshadow your life, then goddammit fight to make yourselves known. There are a LOT of CDs. Way more than transsexuals. You pay taxes, you vote, and if you raise enough hell, politicians will notice.

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When a political party declares opposition in principle, then unless you are in the 10% or so of swing voters, advocating for a position might be considered as proof that their principle is right (e.g., "if gay people aren't planning to force everyone to be gay, then they wouldn't be so loud about this"). Sometimes divide-and-conquer diplomacy works better.

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Originally Posted by devida

Of course it didn't work out that way. And the reason is obvious, isn't it? Gay men and lesbians stood up, out and proud, and demanded the same rights as heterosexuals, and, as society realizes that there is no argument for social and legal oppression of gay and lesbian minorities, more and more nations have accorded them the same rights as the heterosexual majority, to the extent that not only is marriage equality clearly moving towards national acceptance but there were more hate crimes against jews last year recorded thatnagainst gays and lesbians.

That's not true for transgender,

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The Stonewall rights were about transwomen refusing to be harassed any further. Trans people have always been involved in gay rights, but since there are many more gay people than trans people, trans people have repeatedly been pushed aside and told their time will come later. For example the US ENDA was drafted including trans rights, but when there was opposition to that, the trans rights portions were jettisoned, "If we include this then the whole package will fail, and you wouldn't want that, would you?"

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Originally Posted by Audrey Sis

Nothing ever has changed for "fringe" groups Unless people have been made "uncomfortable."

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Never? So there is no role for people like me who go out and just be ourselves and let people discover that they aren't uncomfortable after all?

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

If you don't feel comfortable putting on your favorite garments and walking in public, going to your job, telling your wife, going about your daily life as yourself, or at least the fragment of yourself that needs to be let out from time to time, then you are part of the problem.

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That's going way too far, in my opinion. I did not become trans as a "cause"; I am trans for myself. Do you really think that I ought be demanding my mother to accept my being trans on the basis that I would be Betraying The Cause if I took the soft approach with her ? Is there a trans fund of some kind that I can draw upon in compensation for loss of work when news of my transition goes to every continent and subcontinent (yes, I have been consulted by people in Antarctic) with me posting "I'm trans and you are going to like it!"? Is making waves for The Trans Cause absolutely positively definitely the best way to help?

I don't see other trans people martyring themselves for my needs. I don't see other trans people even asking what my needs are. If I experience some discomfort and exercise some caution then I am so not going to beat myself up about "not doing enough".

You really ought to review your history more carefully. Gay and Lesbians have not been "doing the heavy lifting" for trans people: trans people have been there and active all along, just not insistent that "If you don't include trans rights then we're going to campaign against this as not going far enough".

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Originally Posted by alwayshave

Discrimination is unconstitutional at any level.

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When you are in a grocery store and there is a half-rotten onion in the bin, and a complete onion beside it, which of the two do you buy? Why are you discriminating against rotten food?

If you are chatting around the water cooler with some advertising executives and you ask "What is this black spot on my elbow?" and one of them says "Pneumonia" and another says "grease", then why aren't you going to go to clothing store to buy some cyanide to eat to cure pneumonia? Are you going to discriminate against nonsense, against inappropriate venues, against harmful actions? How do you know that eating cyanide would not cure the black spot on your elbow, seeing as it is apparently "unconstitutional" to discriminate, and thus "unconstitutional" to consider past experience, scientific experiments, intelligence, or anything else that might allow you "to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately".

Not all discrimination is unlawful. Some kinds of discrimination are necessary to survive (e.g., being careful about what one eats). Some kinds of discrimination are a practical necessity, such as requiring people to be minimally competent at their jobs. Some kinds of discrimination may be evolved (e.g., xenophobia is a proven survival trait under some conditions), but ethically one should struggle to overcome while acknowledging their reality. Some kinds of discrimination have no observable benefit, only observable harm, and are rightly banned.

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Originally Posted by alwayshave

Rogina, my point is not to exclude a group, but to include everyone. Meaning, when you name a group as being deserving rights based upon status, you inevitably discriminate against others who are not members of the group. Discrimination is unconstitutional at any level. Laws that treat someone who is a TG or TS differently are unconstitutional. An employer who fires someone for exhibiting another gender leaves themselves open for civil liability. I don't for a second think that people are not discriminated against for gender, preferred gender, sexual preference, race, etc. I just want all individuals protected.

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In more states than not,sexual preference and gender identity are NOT protected under law!It is presently not included. Living in DC,there are forward thinking protections in place...some other progressive areas have them as well. California girls only know protections as do Massachusetts girls.. But it isn't a given...Other places in the country,discrimination runs rampant. I wish there were more people on this thread that would accept the "greater T world" and it's plight..Unfortunately,there is more support for sexual and gender identity laws from the general population then there is from members here! It isn't a "die in the ditch" or wave the flag support that I speak of..I merely asked if people here actually support human rights as it relates to "T"...

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I can't speak to any person specifically, and I definitely can't speak to conditions in Spain, because I don't know how things are for us there. But here in the states, things can be rough. Discrimination in employment, housing, and in just about every other situation you can think of is common for transgender people. There are a TON of users on this site who sit quietly in the closet, terrified because they DON'T want to face the fallout of coming out as a CD:
snip

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This is a good point. I'm a transsexual, am out to most of my close friends and family, am setting up a freelance business where I can maintain my identity, and will be on hormones and laser very soon. I can forge my way and fight for my own rights, but that doesn't really do anything for crossdressers. We may all fall under the transgender umbrella, but we have very different issues. The man in a dress and fetishism stigmas are very strong, and they'll only go away when crossdressers start making themselves known. Instead of being a very weird minority in the population, they'll be numerous enough to where people won't care. At least they will if crossdressers are willing to fight for that. I see a lot of speculative "wouldn't it be great if" type of posts, and they sort of sum up the slow process. There are a good number of girls on this board who do go out and are known in the public, there just needs to be more of them to really make their case and their situation better.

A lot of us do not overlap, regardless of what we like to think. We should definitely help each other through shared experiences and advice, but a lot of our aims are not going to gel together. The spectrum is very large indeed. Every category needs representation, otherwise we'll have full rights for transsexuals but still be in the stone age when it comes to men exploring crossdressing.

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Originally Posted by sandra-leigh

That's going way too far, in my opinion. I did not become trans as a "cause"; I am trans for myself. Do you really think that I ought be demanding my mother to accept my being trans on the basis that I would be Betraying The Cause if I took the soft approach with her ? Is there a trans fund of some kind that I can draw upon in compensation for loss of work when news of my transition goes to every continent and subcontinent (yes, I have been consulted by people in Antarctic) with me posting "I'm trans and you are going to like it!"? Is making waves for The Trans Cause absolutely positively definitely the best way to help?

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None of that is even remotely what I suggest.

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Originally Posted by Rogina B

I wish there were more people on this thread that would accept the "greater T world" and it's plight..Unfortunately,there is more support for sexual and gender identity laws from the general population then there is from members here! It isn't a "die in the ditch" or wave the flag support that I speak of..I merely asked if people here actually support human rights as it relates to "T"...

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Ever thought that many here ( including the lurkers ) do not yet accept themselves or for that matter even understand why or what drives them cding?

As a member of this site for many years I have yet seen the logic of funneling ever aspect of Cding into one group. Especially a group that denies one another's existence .. The key is support and we can only get that by being an open community maybe through listening first and then understanding or accepting each other after..Then and only then can we be funneled as one group..I support human rights everyone has a right to express themselves how they deemed fit causing no harm to others..

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

None of that is even remotely what I suggest.

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It might not have been what you intended to suggest, but suggest it you did. Look at your sentence structure: "If you are not comfortable" doing any of a number of things "then you are part of the problem". So how does one avoid being "part of the problem"? As you phrased it in terms of our actions and our feelings and not the actions or feelings of those we interact with, then in order to avoid being "part of the problem" we must "feel comfortable" doing all of the things you list. Now it happens that at the moment I do not feel comfortable about my mother's opposition to me being trans. How do I change that for the sake of not "being part of the problem" ? Am I expected to cease to care about how my mother treats me? If so, if you are advocating that we stop paying attention to whether we are treated badly or not, then it would follow that you are advocating that there is no external problem, and any "problem" is only in our own internal reactions. But that viewpoint is clearly at odds with the rest of what you have written, so it seems an unlikely interpretation.

So where have we arrived in the thought process? My mother is opposed to me being trans, and to avoid being part of the problem I should care about that, and to avoid being part of the problem I need to internally feel comfortable visiting her and interacting with her where I currently do not, and to avoid being part of the problem the sensitive "negotiated settlement" approach is not acceptable. What is left, other than ordering her to stop opposing my (or anyone) being trans? And as I would be doing that to avoid "being part of the problem", I would be doing that "for the cause" -- whereas left to myself I would handle it a different way that involved further discomfort on my part.

We have now reached what I wrote before, and it is all based completely on what you did in fact suggest. If you did not realize that you were suggesting this then the evidence would be suggestive that you did not think through what you were writing (a possibility that seems rather plausible to me.)

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Originally Posted by Beverley Sims

I support everyone to be able to lead the lifestyle they please.
I do look for common decency and appropriate conduct.

I exclude aggressive behavior towards others and interfering with children.

They are "not" lifestyles.

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.com


I agree with Beverly.

I see the push for TRANSGENDER rights as something that is very inclusive, including everything from stay-at-home CDs and fetish dressers to post-op transsexuals.
Focus on the experiences we have shared and have in common, not the differences. We all remember growing up and seeing some of the boys being beat up as "Sissies", later as "Queers". Some of us got beat up and some of us may have even participated in the beating to make sure that we didn't get beat up. Even if we didn't start dressing until we were older, those fears were imprinted into are subconscious so deeply and so intensely that it often lead to extreme secrecy. The fear was so intense that many of us couldn't tell our wives or lovers for months or even years. Some of us have even been with our wives for decades before we told them about our dressing.

Regardless of where on the transgender scale we land, we have all experienced that intense fear of discovery, the fear of what others would think of us, fear that has often controlled our thinking and our actions. Many of us were so controlled by fear that we weren't even able to experience love because we struggled so intensely with the dishonesty. Many of us still fear rejection of our wives, children, parents, co-workers, and friends. We are so terrified that we assume the worst. That can be really hard on the self esteem and on relationships.

Many of us have struggled with our desires as well. We have tried to stop, to purge, to eliminate temptation, yet most of us have found that it's such an important part of us, that we can't give it up. Many of us fear that it will be too much for us to control. Even those who enjoy being male aren't willing to give up the possibility of looking beautiful and feminine, even if only in lingerie, and only in our own minds. We begin to confront that this is actually an important part of who we are.

These are issues that we share with each other, but they are also issues that are shared with others in the LGBT community as well.

I support the rights of everyone. TG included and even other groups I don't know much about.... I see no advantage to anyone by limiting what one individual can do compared to another. If you are asking about specific TG rights...yes, because as a minority that has been discriminated against extra protection is needed.

Another reason to try and get a fairness clause in your local and state laws so all in the spectrum get treated fairly.
My city has it and it works I can go and do what I want dressed as I want and not be treated any different under the law.
Our police have been trained to follow the law concerning TG/CD gay, lesbian whatever.
We have even had police talk at out trans meetings a few times.
It up to you as trans folk to speak up and be heard in your area and get ordinances/laws in place for your own benefit/protection under the law.

Don't sit back and piss and moan do something about it.

@sandra-leigh

I wasn't speaking about TS individuals. Or your mother. All we can do about family members is try to improve understanding of us all. Presumably you are doing all you can by living your life as yourself.

I think we can start by eliminating three practices that I see on this forum that have nearly driven some of us to suicide.

1. It's okay to disagree, but we shouldn't mis-gender someone, nor tell them that we don't feel sorry for you because you're a privileged white male, or tell you that you're not entitled to certain viewpoints just because you're a white male or grew up with male privilege, when in fact you're a MTF TS who happened to grow up with male privilege, or even a MTF CD who grew up with male privilege and is sick and tired of being male.

2. While engaging in fantasy about transition can be dangerous, we should never mis-gender someone, nor tell them that you're not a TS just because you're married or engaged in masturbatory cross-dressing or happen to have doubts about being trans, when in fact you're a MTF TS who happened to shove down your gender issues for decades because society told you that you are male and a freak for feeling like you're really a female.

3. While reality does happen and it bites, we shouldn't mis-gender someone, nor tell them that you're "Pollyanna" and being blind to reality, because we already face so much lack of support by the outside world that the last thing we need is lack of support from within our own community.

I would like to declare December 9 National Day of Rememberance of Suicides Caused from within the Trans Community.

If we're going to get equal rights within the world at large, we should stay united within our own community and be careful not to engage in practices that alienate members of our own community.

If you think there's lots of Pollyanna in this, then maybe you need to go get a life :battingeyelashes:

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella

If you are T.G. you are not crossdressing per se. You are dressing the gender you are suppose to be representing ,Yes?

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No...if you are saying that TG is only TS you are not understanding the definition that is used in this forum for TG

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try to look at things in different angles once in a while ..

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I see your angle very plain. You are drawing a line that says if you ain't _________you ain't part of the group. Elitist and narrow. I believe we have debated this before. You are saying that only TSs have a dog in the fight and that any other gender variant doesn't (and you are doing it using the argument that TG isn't an umbrella term). If you dress in any manner that is opposite of the sex you are born you are under the TG umbrella. So the OP used the term as generally accepted in most areas. Those who are adamant that the TG is only TS make her argument more narrow than she meant. By your redefining the "T" to only include TSs you are limiting the rights of those who are just gender variant

I have been pondering this question all day.

Do I support TG rights as an activist. No. It is highly unlikely you will ever find me on a march or some other large public forum. Not because of fear of judgement or being outed, but because that is not what I seek in life. To me, in my experience, "activism" is a negative thing. I have only ever seen it used to force one groups opinion on another. With the activist's goal being the only acceptable form of tolerance is full acceptance of the activist agenda. To me acceptance and tolerance are not the same. To me acceptance is that I am in agreement with a subject. Tolerance is I am approve, I may disapprove, of a subject, but you are free to hold your view and I am free to hold my view and I am going to let you go about your business and I am going to go about mine.

I have long history of being a bit of an independent person. I don't seek people's acceptance on much of anything. I just go through life minding my own business and when it comes to cross dressing I am seeking the same thing, just to be tolerated and left alone to enjoy my own little world. tolerance...

Now in a private setting with people I know at a personal or professional level. Yes I support TG rights and more. I don't approve of people being belittled and or mocked regardless of whether regardless of their gender (id), race, ethnicity, height, weight, ... you get the picture. In that setting, I will usually attempt to challenge what they are doing.

I guess to sum all my rambling up.

I try to lead my life and treat others as I wish to be treated. I try not to judge others, less I be judged myself. I just enjoy watching life and all the many people that pass in and out of it. Some times it raises an eye brow, some times a smile. Each person has their own story on how they got to where they are. I didn't live it, and I am not the one to judge it.

PS: I used a lot of "you"s above, please know that isn't directed at anybody in particular, it just a "you" as in the world at large.

-Millie

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Originally Posted by Rogina B

...Have you chosen to support the advancement of Transgender rights since you are telling us here on the forum how important gender expression is for you? Replies are welcome from "all sides" of this forum!

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Lorileah.

Please stop the finger pointing and I would appreciate it if you would ..

A. Stop twisting my post around by re wording them to fit your opinion..

B. Let off of me, sorry we don't see eye to eye on everything but I deal with it why cant you?

C. I follow the rules of this forum why do you take my post so personal ?

If you look at the O.P. you will see this " how important gender expression is for you" .. My suggestion was I have no gender expression had nothing to do with the TG spectrum as a whole thank you very much " no line was drawn"..

Next you will see this " Replies are welcome from "all sides" of this forum!" it appears to me you are the only one who has a issue with my harmless post when it's not even your post..

What gives?

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Originally Posted by Michelle789

3. While reality does happen and it bites, we shouldn't mis-gender someone, nor tell them that you're "Pollyanna" and being blind to reality, because we already face so much lack of support by the outside world that the last thing we need is lack of support from within our own community.

If you think there's lots of Pollyanna in this, then maybe you need to go get a life :battingeyelashes:

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Thanks Michelle,

Maybe you're right. I think I will go get myself a life. I'll be able to have an opinion without
remarks like this one.

It's been really nice ladies. I wish you all the best!

~Kate has moved on~

Kate, I wasn't referring to your comment. My "Pollyanna" comment was referring to another thread where someone called someone else "Pollyanna" just for trying to be supportive.