Mary something said in post 100: "I'm not sure it's even possible to pass all the time."
I know lots of trans women who pass all the time, myself included. They are not gender varients though. They transitioned fully without making compromises.
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Mary something said in post 100: "I'm not sure it's even possible to pass all the time."
I know lots of trans women who pass all the time, myself included. They are not gender varients though. They transitioned fully without making compromises.
Misty, I think you raise an important point. What people who want to transition really need is real criticism, telling them about the things that don't work, etc. Most transitioners delude themselves about what they really look like and how they are perceived by others. I know of what I speak I was there. I think what we might have to say in the form of criticism would nothing compared to what most people will think when they see. I see avatars and I think oh my god, do they look in the mirror before they take a picture. Learning to critically assess yourself is crucial.
Nobody for instance would consider Frances as anything other than a woman even if she wore jeans and button down shirt. It's not clothes and presentations. It is how you move, the space you occupy, how you occupy that space, how you talk to people (not voice but body language) how you walk gesture etc.
Thanks bad tranny....thanks for crapping on my moment of happiness in the past two days of hell on earth...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances
If you pass all the time then why no pics?? Afraid us bearded bushy eyebrowed folk will get jealous?
Frances, haven't I read your posts before that your facial structure was already in the female range?
but anyway, was just trying to make the point that voice for example is important when it comes to passing, how someone would know what Lynn's voice sounds like over this forum is beyond me
actually i skyped with her a number of times over the years...she couldnt "not pass" if she tried...
her comment about no compromise is totally true ..of course a little luck helps too..
I removed all my pictures and personnal information after the "incident" with the transphobic forumite. I was quite present on this forum before. I have been a member since 2005.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451
I'll post some pictures temporarily, but like mary something says, you cannot hear my voice on the pictures. I am 5' 7", 46 years old and post-op.
Edit: I removed the photos.
Yes I remember your pics now! You're beautiful honey, even you're height is perfect, maybe I was wrong cause as long as you don't sound like James earl jones I think you'll be just fine no matter the voice :)
You are post op! You don't have to worry about passing. You're the real deal sweetie :)
Very cute pics!
...and thank you for making my point much better than I ever could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451
As for Frances, she is incomparable to any other TS I personally know. She is certainly a doll and very sweet, but even she will admit to being genetically gifted.
Ooops, guess I started something with my passing comment. Sorry people.
Misty, I really do think that younger people can easily blend in, while it is more difficult for older folks without FFS. I was saying this to encourage Lynn to go out since I think this is the best way to help clarify things.
To Lynn ... Misty is right, no one can tell from a tiny pic in a thread what you really look like in RL. But, if my SO can do it (she's mid-50s without FFS), so can you. Don't get me wrong, my SO is read especially when she talks to people, but she is feminine. The people that she interacts with do respect her for who she is and we (and she) very seldom get any grief. What all these people are thinking privately, we don't know.
The ladies in this forum are correct, "passability" is nice but not crucial, not in our day and age. It's more about how you carry yourself and you have to do the basics of course ... no salient male cues like beard, bushy eyebrows, hairy arms & legs, etc. And dress like all the other GGs. And work on your voice. If you can't change it, don't go into a falsetto, just try to speak softly.
... and you'll do just fine.
And I thought people were trying to stop having another computer get thrown through the window! Just like not knowing what a person actually presents as in real life,no one here other than the OP knows what is really said between themselves and their wife..I think there is more than a few issues here as didn't this all start with cybersex?
Reine to a woman that has transitioned, being passable is NOT being read when she talks to people....its not blending in ...being tolerated and accepted vs being embraced and having your femaleness simply assumed and directly reflected back at you are two different things...
Its totally unfair, but for a person that is living permanently as a female , the benefits of passing cannot be overestimated....not passing means you have to learn a whole new skill set to have a great quality of life... lots of folks dont pass and they get around it with a good attitude and usually by exuding an aura of femaleness that can't be denied even tho they are not really looking like it...that's really tough but sometimes it must be done...i also know some people that are flat out delusional about passing...my one story is about a person that i met through my electrologist that actively bragged about her passibility despite razor stubble and constantly adjusting her wig which did not fit...whatever works for you i thought... i must admit i sat there and said "oh yes you look great" but gently commented that she might consider getting working on that stubble...on the other hand my "big sister" was very critical of my ffs plans...i was physically scared and i rationalized what i needed...her advice made a $50k investment worth it...my choices would have been a disaster...thank goodness she was honest with me..
The concept of passing is different if you come at this from a perspective of a person that has a choice in how they present, someone who has only a momentary stake in the day to day ups and downs of being read out in public.. especially when you consider that basically when your SO is out she can't communicate with people unless she risks being read... its a great thing for a bi-gendered person to look pretty good, and mostly blend in as long as they dont talk...lots of cd's would envy that...
I think there is a RIGHT way to encourage ts people...which is to emphasize the positive and put a boot in their butt and push them out the door to find out for themselves...and that means NO checking out of the self serve line at the supermarket..no shuffling through the mall with your head down, and no mumbling and pointing to your choice at the restaraunt..you have to actually live...
I think the right way to do a favor to someone consider going out in context of being ts is brutal honesty...thats really tough with pictures...people view us from every single angle and head on shots way overstate "passability"...lynn has work to do to learn the right female image for herself... many people will read her is my best guess....i was read 1000 times before ffs....i learned to be ok with that over time...i learned which wigs worked better, which clothes worked better and only by talking to people and gauging their reactions did i learn my own true voice...which turned out to be basically my old voice with some sugar and spice ....
PS--lynn has been really really fearlessly honest and open...responding directly to all comments....we owe it to her to get it right...
there was NO cybersex...lynn got a cybersex request and responded sarcastically(which never plays in cyberspace)....
FFS is not ever ever neccessary for anyone...being "totally" passable is never ever neccessary for anyone... but if you believe you will pass all the time and you are planning to transition, you are in for lots of disappointment...especially if your state of mind is intoxicated by femininity...
Can you elaborate on the "incident"Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances
You're a very beautiful woman. I would proud to display my pictures if I were you. KudosQuote:
Originally Posted by Frances
I must agree...Don't let this intoxicate you. Your best bet is to handle this with a clear and realistic conscience. Don't let it get the best of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
The incident in question resulted in many suspensions, bannings, departures and rancor. A lot of good people left the site. I am still simmering. I would rather not elaborate on it.
Yes. Thanks for your perspective. I can see your point and appreciate your post. Any fool can post, the point is to to understand. Thank you for letting me see the bigger picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
Kaitlynn you expressed something I was trying to say but didn't. How do you know if your passing as a woman or as an accepted ts? Sometimes it feels one way, other times it feels like the other, in my case being 5'11 and heavy is an obstacle... Only one can be changed.
Ruby and kaitlynn- how do you tell the caterpillar that you don't accept it as a butterfly?
Update: We slept in the same bed last night........I cuddled her to sleep while we watched a movie. We didn't really talk too much because us idiots usually screw things up with our mouths open. It was nice. Still a little uncomfortable but as far as things go, I think for now we are ok. She started a new job today and when she left the house she turned back around and looked up at me holding our baby girl. She leaned in and kissed the baby, then looked back at me, rolled her eyes and smirked and gave me a kiss. Then she told me she loves me.....I think we're ok. All my clothes are still in a tote in the back of my car. My pillow, toothbrush and other crap is still at my office but I'm thinking that maybe the "collecting and removing" of my stuff from the house may have triggered a thought of regret in her mind for freaking out on me. I think we may just have a good weekend :) wish me luck!
Edit---- we did talk yesterday...text talking while I was at work ( I got ahead of myself with this post and forgot this part :-p ) I asked her what I can do to fix this?? And she said " come up with a smart strategy that is realistic to get us to the next chapter of our lives in a civilized manner putting the kids first". Which was really cool and sorta means she wants to become more independent from me, which is good! In a way, I want her to have more freedom from the kids and me.....cuz I don't care who you are you can overdose on people....anyway....I'm a scatterbrain for sure
Idc if I'm passable or not but I feel good and don't make fun of my pouty face cuz my smile is blah.
http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/...ps397a75a1.jpg
:facepalm::facepalm:Oh my..........
Good luck! Keep posting!
I know Kaitlyn. :) I read again my last post and I misspoke when I said that passing is not important. But, there've been TSs in this section who have said that passing is all about attitude and who've minimized the importance of passing too. ... I guess it just depends on the context of the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
At any rate, I made a suggestion directly to Lynn who does not want to transition, and I was suggesting that she should go out for a year as herself to see how she feels about it all in twelve months time. I'm guessing that Lynn would also not want to have FFS at this time, nor take hormones which would pretty well annihilate her sex life with her wife. So, she has no option but to do what my SO has done and minimize male gender cues in different ways, and completely blend into the crowd when out and about as long as she is at the periphery of everyone's attention. At the same time we all know that a feminine presentation for most people who have not had FFS and HRT is not fool proof when interacting directly with someone, although younger people do have a much better chance of accomplishing this that middle aged folks.
I was also pointing out to Lynn that being read in this context (given that she does not want to transition, have FFS, nor take HRT at this time), is not the end of the world either ... or it certainly has not been for my SO. She knows a lot of people (outside of the LGBT community) who do not know her as a man, but who totally respect her for who she is and who are very friendly to us.
I'm not suggesting that transwomen should walk around having tell-tale signs they were born in a male body, although I do wish to point out for Lynn's benefit because she's fairly new, that it can take some years after FFS before this is accomplished.
I have never heard anyone who can "pass" say that it's not important or overrated. Attitude is a great if you don't care if you get read. My money says that if these girls could experience what it's like to truly pass as a woman ..... They'd change their tune.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Wow 5 pages already and nothing really resolved yet, maybe a truce that's it.
Well hopefully we are working things out. It kinda feels like we are :-/
And btw everybody , I've been on hormones for almost two yrs.
anyway I can't even begin to tell you all how much I appreciate your input and guidance. Even though I'm pig headed stubborn and obnoxious I really thank you all. Even the mean ones. Especially the mean brutally honest ones :)
Good to hear, LynnQuote:
Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451
And to love someone is to be brutally honest (when the time is right) in my opinion.
Passable or not, I think you are pretty!
(You are almost smiling in the red top too)
Passing is such an interesting thing. I have a friend and she has really lost in the genetic lottery. Her shoulders are wide as a brick house, her torso is shaped like a V, she has no hips, she sprouts facial hair and her voice is as gravely and deep as any truck drivers'. And!!!!! she is a a genetic female. She never gets mistaken for a man, ever. In fact she exudes femaleness.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
We tend to think of passing as a perfection of a ruse. All of the discussion here revolve around that aspect. Facial surgery, behavior, clothing, comportment, movement etc. are all perfected to make the world believe that we are who we are. Yet, there are websites now that teach people "how to spot the tranny". For instance here or here.
No one ever seems to think that being female is really not about creating an impression, succeeding in a ruse, making people believe. The friend I mentioned above would hardly have passed any of the "spot the tranny" tests but she is unquestionably female and is witnessed and mirrored as such. In passing that is your measure of success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin
OMG I passed the arm test!!!! I have woman arms, ain't that cool? Learn something new everyday. lol
I really have to ask, why did you have to check it out?
Well what a complex situation. My wife still doesn't know I crossdress and though I like it that way have been chastized by others for not being honest with her. She too is the love of my life and know that the situation you are in is what I'd be in for. That said I"m a crossdresser and not a transgender who wants to be a girl 24/7. Having not gone into the marriage being honest about your wanting to be a woman would be like her marrying you and then confessing to be an ax murderer and wanting her to accept that. You are asking a lot of her to accept what your asking as she wants a man and a husband and not another girl to be married to. It's very nice that you love her so much but you also are selfish to think you can totally change to the woman you want to be and still have the comforts of home, a lovely wife and kids that love you and don't care about this radical change you wish to go through. I fully understand your wifes position and her demands are ones that are telling you I want my man back and if she's over the top, she has that right and hopefully you see that. You've decieved her. I understand your feels as I'd like to dress so much more often than I do but do love my family a lot more than my love of crossdressing so keep it in check. Not easy but it is a choice and the choice you're making is going to cost you your marriage so think you need to get out of the marriage, become the woman you want to be and also still, and most important, be the father you need to be with your children. They will eventually understand and get over it as they will always love you as their father. You need to let your wife go as she's in great pain so she can hopefully put her life together, care for her children and find again hopefully another "man" to love her. If you don't choose to do this it's very selfish of you as what your doing is not a one way street only for you. Your need and pull to become a TG will not go away so it's up to you to make the important decisions.
Transexual = axe murderer. To be honest I never made that connection before. You live and learn. Some CDs are so knowledgeable.Quote:
Having not gone into the marriage being honest about your wanting to be a woman would be like her marrying you and then confessing to be an ax murderer and wanting her to accept that.
Lacy, I understand that you have no frame of reference to allow you to understand transsexuals, but you really do go too far in comparing someone who was born female with a male body to an axe murderer.
You repeatedly speak of the original poster "wanting to become a woman", but if Lynn is indeed transsexual then that is definitely not the case. She cannot "want to become" what she is already.
You are hardly in a position to give Lynn lessons of morality since you admit that you have been lying to your wife by omission ever since you knew her.
Your desire to dress is not at all comparable to the extreme Gender Dysphoria that a transsexual experiences prior to transition. You are fortunate that you are able to repress your desire to cross-dress so that your wife does not discover it, but saying that you do this because you love her - and thereby implying that Lynn does not love her wife and children - is beyond the pale.
You urge Lynn to "be the father you need to be with your children". How is she to do this if her Gender Dysphoria drives her beyond despair?
oh my gosh thank you rianna.....
this is a common theme that highlights just how disbeleived and misunderstood we are in the world..including by our supposed friends in the so called "tg umbrella"...
I'm not so sure that an umbrella that big could ever fit into a closet Kaitlynn ;). In my experience closets are small, restricting, and so dark you can't even see a hand inches from your face. I suppose one could argue that they are safe, but if even a little illumination burns as if staring at the sun I would argue that even safety isn't insured. The only certainty I knew when there was that I would face an almost endless string of days filled with a dead feeling inside and almost existential loneliness. Lacy, if you are reading this I would ask you simply to examine why you feel the need to find the situation analogous to being an axe murderer? We see the world as WE are, not as it truly is. Good luck on your journey.
Rianna thanks for raising the point of Lynn's children and how does she proceed from here. I'm afraid that Lynn has her eyes so widely shut that even her wife's attempts at initiating an open dialog safely is falling on deaf ears. Lynn, honey, her words could be construed as telling you that not only is the relationship about to change but she might even be adamantly opposed to transition even if she's not your partner.
It is for this very reason Lynn that you need to realize that life is not a beauty pageant. There are some beautiful members here who may disagree, not that I wouldn't empathize because 15 years and 50 lbs ago I would have agreed with them. Let them debate how well they "pass" because that is the least of your concerns now. Our collective truth is that we will never pass in a dentists chair, or in an unexpected visit to the ER. Kathryn knocked it out of the park in her post, and I encourage you to read it. If you choose not to then simply consider passing to be the equivalent of being able to enter a restroom full of women and children, use the facilities as any normal woman while smiling or saying hi if appropriate, then exiting without incident. Any discussions beyond that remind of s a phrase I'm constantly telling my children, "its not a competition between you, only against yourselves". We are here for support, and you may need more than you anticipate right now.
Let's not hammer Lacy for being closeted. At least she knows who she is and even though her words ring hollow to the ears of a TS, you have to admit that she may just be calling it like she sees it.
I don't measure people by what they say. The most accurate measure I know is by actions, and Lynn's actions are textbook pink fog CD.
I wasn't experiencing a fraction of the angst that Lynn describes, back when I made the tough terrifying decision to transition, and I can't for the life of me understand why someone would continue to live in such a horrific circumstance. If things are that bad, then it's time to start talking. Time to start talking for real about things that are real.
Not deals, or compromises but real conversation about how you're going to handle the impending transition.
So I'm a textbook pink fog cd with an impending transition? Lol
You're cute ;)
How would you describe yourself Lynn?
Yes. As far as I can tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451
That's what your actions say so far at least, and I know nothing of you except what you've written about yourself.
Consider that for a moment.
Your own words have formed my opinion. Is my comprehension so terribly bad that I'm just dead wrong? It's possible I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Ask yourself why it matters so much to you? Because I'm not much for labels, and could care less!
I like your web page. It's cool! But I don't really get why someone who would make a whole website blog describing how you do it your own way, the wrong way, whatever , but don't you think there's room for my own way? Without stuffing me in a box and filing me away as temporarily hypnotized
Curious
I really do like your page though. I think we have a lot in common :)
Between a rock and a hard place??? Catch 22 sorta maybe??Quote:
Originally Posted by mary something
I don't want to sacrifice my family. I don't want to sacrifice my life. Yet I am forced to choose.
It's only a curse because of other people's inability to accept me. I don't feel like what I am is horrible, I think it's a beautiful anomaly . It's everyone else in the world that are f**ked in the head.
:-(. ..
I feel ya there, she had some good advice I thought...
Wow you read a lot into what i wrote that has nothing to do with what was asked.... At this point in time it's not fair to his wife with what he's asking of her. Where did I give a lesson in morality... no where...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
It's not fair for her wife to smash her property just because it's difficult to understand being married to a transsexual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacyfem
Also can you please use the correct pronouns? it's hyper rude to use male pronouns to refer to someone who is female.
Lacy, you were not asking anything. You categorised the OP as a liar, then compared what a transsexual goes through to being an axe murderer.
Why are you now misgendering the original poster?
I could never and would never turn my back on my wife. I will never decide to leave her because of my issues. If one day she finally decides she's had enough and wants a separation then I won't fight her. I might beg for a while but I want her to be happy and if I can't make her happy then she can decide when it's time to stop trying. I'm not a good giver-upper-er but I'm always willing to compromise...to an extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacyfem
Things are okay tonight. We had a good Mother's Day. I worked all morning and then met up with them at the I laws for a cookout. I was dressed in my nicest button down manshirt that my wife loves. I had jeans and my old school vans with my hair slicked back like a greaser. Lol.....I had a beer and talked business with her old man, putting on my finest Macho performance in some time. She ate it up and it made me happy to make her happy. The painful truth is that I just can't keep putting on shows like this forever. Sooner or later I'm going to say, look.. This is not me! You know this
And hopefully she won't leave!! But I know I won't ever initiate a breakup....and I wouldn't call it weakness or selfishness. I think it's part of my vows, isn't it?
I find your comment interesting since this is the entire issue confronting LynnMorgan and wife. Does LynnMorgan's wife refer to her spouse in the feminine? The masculine? I think that is the entire issue confronting both of them. If you were to meet LynnMorgan's spouse, would you tell her to use feminine pronouns when addressing her spouse?
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfurret
This thread has been going on since March. It has taken more twists and turns than a 70s soap opera.
Control is all that it is about with your wife and you. If you have no idea what a power and control wheel is, ask anybody in domestic violence work with the Courts. And that's what you must do.
Find a friendly womens' center that deals with men who hit women (battery) and ask to see a free counselor. Nationwide, there are thousands of nonprofit organization that receive funding from one of two Federal sources: 1. The Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). 2. Victims of Violence Act (VOCA) funding.
You are a victim of emotional violence (emotional battery), the most common and most difficult problem in many households. You are a victim, perhaps your wife is too. And certainly your children. You owe it to your children to have a household that does not have all of this kind of cross emotion going on.
What's important? YOUR CHILDREN. Period. Do it for them. This is all free. Mommy/wifey should not control this to the extent you describe any more. Mommy/wifey may disapprove of what you decide to do but she is not the decision maker.
Do you want a government employed decisionmaker (i.e. family court judge) to change your life for you? You could lose custody of your children, or at least the time that they and you need with them. Talk to a true professional. This is not an Ann Landers issue.
lynn...You are what you are..
You are trying to shoehorn your life situation into your identity.. for ts people its often not possible..and people are giving you all kinds of different angles and feedback about it...
There are many transgendered people here and they will rightly say you can live a gender blended lifestyle if you are transgendered...one confusing thing is that some of them will insist they are transsexual...and somehow be ok with living what is basically a male life... thats fine, maybe they are, but they are not suffering the deep deep gender dyshporia that causes other people to give up on life unless there is a prospect for transition...unfortunately for them, if they are ts, they will know what i'm talking about someday..
and then we have crossdressers trying to give you life lessons hoping to support you and perhaps they are well intentioned but their posts are more about them identifying with ts women than providing support.
...its like telling a clinically depressed person "hey look at me !! i'm happy!!! just be happy like me!!! Look at me!!! I didnt need meds!!! You dont either!!!"
its not about what's right or wrong..
its that IF you are ts, and if you are suffering bad gender dysphoria... the decisions you are making are very likely to not work out the way you want..
Lynn -- My point was that cross dressers are not highly regarded by conventional society. Except for the massive approval that we have on our own CD sites, CDs are well below the conventional terms such as "gay" or even "other" in the eyes of society. To them we are a strange group of people who could be seen as dangerous to your children.
I have seen mothers follow a script that she, lawyers or girlfriends can write for her. Often it is simply because they come to believe it or are pressured into it. This comes up when divorce becomes an issue. Get divorced if you can. Perhaps you should. But first go there well armed with what will happen post divorce as far as the kids are concerned.
You need some back up and good legal/emotional advice for things beyond how you feel being a CD. You are a victim. You need an advocate, if the children are important to you and divorce may be a possibility. Advocates can be free and are open minded and can be very useful.
Robbin makes a good point Lynn, perhaps it would be wise to simply make sure you can prove at some point in the future that your wife is aware of your ts nature during the marriage and any dissolution of the marriage was not because of her discovery of it? Maybe in her own words from a text or email? It seems to me that if a situation occurs in the future that she would use that against you if you can show that she has been aware of it for a long time, during your marriage, any threat of her using it against you in a worst case scenario would look opportunistic at best by her. It would be very difficult to use that against you if you can prove that she lived in marital comfort with knowledge of it for years before deciding she wanted to split.
I've been watching this thread from afar. Lynn's first post gave rise to a lot of assumptions and left many questions unanswered. Some clarity has come over time and if the assumption is there that Lynn is in fact transsexual, then where is the shame in the following path...
I see a lot of my own situation in the above paragraph, short of some of the compromises of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451
Being TS is what it is. How we react, how we cope, how we choose to deal with it is a highly individual decision.
Kaitlyn's point is well taken. And her and I have given each other much respect in that I truly believe she understands where I'm coming from and conversely, making the decisions that she has made which are essentially polar opposite of my own doesn't suggest that she harbored any less love or affection for all that she held dear. We have simply taken different paths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
Yet who's to say my own gender dysphoria is not as deep as hers was, or as deep as anyone else's? Or Lynn's for that matter? Or anyone else's??? The degree of gender dysphoria is certainly an element to a clinical diagnosis. Once we acknowledge it's existence as a given, what we do with it is an entirely different matter.
TRYING to stay true to all that one has built in their life doesn't make one less trans.
RISKING all in an attempt to be true to one's self doesn't make one more trans.
FINDING A MIDDLE GROUND between the two simply shows the complexities in making these decisions.
None of the above defines the human condition of being transsexual.
Maybe my comprehension is poor but I seem to missing something here. Lynn you say you do not want to give up your equipment and its relevant performance. You write as if your wife is finding out about your trans issues recently. If you are on hormones for 2 years I do not see how you could hide that fact from your wife and still perform sexually as a male. I may be wrong, but I do not get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451