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However you cut it, the common thread is crossing the boundary that separates one gender from another. That's what you see. Anything else: opinions, thoughts, perceptions, histories, etc. you have to ask about, but presentation is visible.
And no, consulting us would not have helped. I doubt we would be able to sift through the list I presented on the previous page and more. If we cannot agree here, what difference would you think being asked would do?
DeeAnn
So clothes make the man, or transgender as it were?
The visuals are the result that you see. However, something happened internally to illicit that behavior. Note that it is possible to appear feminine in male clothing. It is all in how you put it together. It isn't the clothes per se; it is what they represent.
I think the bigger problem is not our community being an artificial construct but the people within the community not wanting to be associated with others within the community. Like your opinion that somehow by being grouped together there is an expectation of lock step uniformity. Personally I don't see any demand to be the same as anyone else within this group. I kind of think that was my initial concern. Just because I identify as transgender does not mean that I should automatically be assumed to be included in a subset of that group. But I have no problem with being included within that larger category.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantDebutant
Don't make the false assumption that just because someone is within a category that it makes everyone the same within that category. Not all lesbians, or homosexuals, or bisexuals, or car enthusiasts, or gamblers, or white people, or fire fighters, or soccer players, or ________ are the same with the same outlooks, etc. Even though we are included under larger groups, we are all each individuals. It does us no harm to be considered as part of a larger group. It actually can be quite helpful. Generally to get rights within a society you need to have enough members of the group.
OK, how does that change things?? (I was really using 'guy' in its non-gender specific mode. It's fair in modern usage.) -- but going back and reading my comment, I see i used "he" twice so clearly I didn't read the byline and made the assumption the author was male. Sorry. Though again, it doesn't change my reaction to the article.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan G
"How many so-called “cross-dressers” use the transgender label as an excuse so they can wear the clothes they want in public?"
Let me restate my objection:
You would think, given her claim that she's been investigating the topic since the 1990s, that she'd have learned a little more about crossdressers...
Given the spectrum from occasional crosssdressers in the privacy of their own homes to post-op transsexuals, and every subtlety in between, how could there ever be "lock step uniformity"? The variations are infinite, but when we communicate to the outside world, all that does is cause confusion. That is why a simple pared down approach is better: crosssdressers at one end, transsexuals at the other with variations in between. That is as simple as it gets.
When people attempt to cover every shade between the 2 ends, I would have to question their motives. They are not interested in sending a clear message to the outside world.
There are some good and new points being made here - and so politely too! :D I think this one stands out for me and I'd love to hear some answers from those who fit this description.... this is one of those questions that should get right to the meat of something:
This is why I am quite content in the belief that I reside under the TG umbrella - I 'feel' more feminine... I won't say I feel like a woman, because I don't, but the presentation aligns with something in me that desires to be seen as feminine or female, even though I am not a woman, and I can only understand that to be related to my (and our collective) gender quirk... :thinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by melanie206
Nice question Melanie - I'm going to make a note of that for future use and I dearly hope someone will try to answer it... :)
Katey x
Being part of a community doesn't mean you are all clones. A community can just be people who have similar interests and goals.
So many CDs here bemoan that they can't go out, or that they can't dress because their wives don't like it (or bosses or dogs whatever). That they feel marginalized by the world. And yet, when the opportunity arises for something to change, they scream they don't want to play in that sand box.
Fact, no one except your mind has even made a rule that says that men cannot wear dresses or skirts (at least in the countries represented in this forum). Fact, because you fear being different, you hide it. Fact, if tomorrow fashion all ove the US said Men's dresses are the new in thing" 99% here would cry that they didn't want that either.
But back to the community aspect. In the 70's farm workers were being abused by farm owners. Low pay, poor working conditions, no or substandard housing. Many were from Mexico, some from other Latin American countries. All shared a language, skin tone usually and a desire to get ahead in life. The Mexicans didn't like the Guatemalans who didn't like the Hondurans who hated the New Mexicans. But in order to get better lives, better working conditions, money, health care, they banded together. They put their differences aside. It helped thy had a common nemesis, slave driving farmers, but they fought together.
Do we really need a Cesar Chavez, or Martin Luther King Jr or Susan B Anthony to come along to get us to stand together? It is so easy for most here to just disappear when thing get tough. Thus the I don't wanna be associated with....crowd. You let others lead the way but you are very happy to reap the rewards. You won't take part in the losses though. How nice is that.
The article really doesn't say anything that is earth shaking. It is at best a weak essay. The writer doesn't address the answers to the issues but instead tries to get sympathy, without result, from a small group of people. Just think, if that group of people was 100 fold larger, the message would be heard louder.
You can complain about the sand in your shorts or you can do something about it.
Lorileah, you are ultimately right about what you are saying as far as be the change you want to see. Since I am one who has decided that it is not in my best interest with the overall life I have to "play in the sandbox", I do not get too bent up over whatever terms, names, laws are being pushed or thwarted. Not that I am without opinion mind you, but it would be hypocritical of me to whine loudly about any misunderstandings, being poorly treated or just plain ignorance and lack of knowledge while not attempting to right any of it. I have to therefor accept the self imposed limitations. Perhaps it was the many mistakes I made early on in not disclosing my gender issues... I have decided to accept the consequences of this. for me that just means my wife is not comfortable enough to view me dressed, and has limited acceptance of it overall. But, I was at least smart enough or perhaps lucky enough to find someone who is willing to at least give it a good shot in opening their mind as my wife has. She actually gives me plenty of time to dress, almost daily for an hour or two, and will listen and be involved in discussions from time to time.
Back to the TG/TS/ T1000 issue. I do think personally that TG is or should be considered a spectrum, within it the variations from casual partial dresser to fully identifying opposite birth sex. That which we call TS. Maybe the media just has too much of a PC hang up on the word SEX, or any variation of it. I really do not care ultimately... I can be "just a CDer"... and there doesn't really have to be a considered spectrum, for the sake of PC. I do think though that it would hamper a better understanding of CDers and that without knowledge of what the difference of a CDer vs TG/TS is, which may be in degrees..... Warm water, hot water.... hot enough it boils and then , but it is still H2O... Same stuff, liquid or gas state... People overall should be able to identify themselves correctly and have something to be able to identify themselves with. A comfortable out CDer who wants no part of transition should be able to express themselves, and have people understand the difference between them and someone who does want to or is/has transitioned. If they are looking for a partner and the partner is ok with CDing, but not ok with someone who is or will transition, accurate knowledge without having to tip toe so crazily due to current PC wording and terminology. Maybe the TG and CDer will accomplish this.... but many CDers, myself included have a range of other feminine expressions, which are not directly clothing. (a big reason why I feel CDers and TS is about degrees) Hopefully with more media exposure there will also be more accurate knowledge being presented as well. I do not care what the terms that are used are so long as it can be done so accurately.
I think there would be a better understanding of CDers if it was clear that CDing is under the TG umbrella or within the spectrum of gender variances rather then a totally separate thing. It is inescapable that there is not one type of CDer. Even within CDing it is a spectrum.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
PEOPLE: GIVE UP THE IDIOTIC NOTION OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!!
If someone's name is BOB, do you call him GEORGE?
First off I would just like to reiterate that I accept that as a cross-dresser I am in a group that falls under the transgender umbrella. And I have no problem being associated with the other groups under that umbrella. But as the blue man with the hat in The Gender Book says "No one gets to tell you how to identify you. You get to decide that for yourself." And I don't identify myself as transgender simply because I don't feel transgender. I feel that cross-dressing is about wardrobe not my gender. What good would the term do me? I have seen transsexuals not indentify as transgender but rather the gender they switched to, and good for them. It is very liberating to not be tied down by groups or labels. Terms like transgender or cross-dresser bring with them a lot of baggage that is best not to be carried around everywhere. I see that as the main reason why so many underneath this TG umbrella want to get out of this term, and they have that right. Labels are too restricting for many which is why we have these label debates on a regular basis.
Another reason we debate labels an terminology in the TG community is that the ground continues to shift. As with the OP that the media is now using transgender in replacement of transsexual, what does this mean? It might just be temporary lapse or it could now start to evolve that way. Who knows, after watching transvestite turn to cross-dresser and transvestite becoming a negative word, and there have been some to say cross-dresser is too negative and a new term is needed. All I know is words seem to change around here quite a lot which would be another good reason for a person not to identify to closely with one the meaning could become obsolete on them.
I am glad to see we are in agreement that we are not "clones" in "lock step" perhaps using lockstep was to heavy a term but it does appear to me that some are trying to yoke a herd of cats to the cart of transgenderism and its causes. There seem to be a few that scratch their heads in puzzlement as they watch the harnessed cats start to head in multiple direction or just lay down. And there as some who bemoan the fact that a couple little rascals slip out of their harness and go scampering off into the field to chase a butterfly or something more content in living a life of fun then pulling a wagon.
Now RD no one said anything about causes. Really? then what is all this talk about a CD MLK, a need to send a clear message to the outside world, and those that don't have questionable motives, getting rights in society, and those that eschew the TG label are doing a disservice to the TG sisters who have come before us, and lamenting the fact we cannot get the "general population to understand us if we are so fractious on our own". Surely the TG community is a free one based on all of us partaking in clothing not designed for our gender and one where a variety of ideas on the nature and meaning of being transgender can be had.
And what would this cause be? Why would we need some T'Ger Chavez? As Lorileah pointed out the only thing that is preventing CDing men is themselves. I wouldn't even know where to begin to craft legislation to emancipate a person from themselves. And it would be hubris to think he needed emancipation because many are just exercising their independent will to cross-dress or not to cross-dress. No government authority has ever prevented me from purchasing women's clothes or wearing them out in public. I have never heard of any western citizen getting locked up for getting a SRS nor have I heard of any movement to get that freedom. It would seem that the TG community for some time has been able to legally express their desired gender. The opposition to the TG community does not come from government but from other groups and individuals who have disagreements with them. As long as these disagreements don't end in assault, theft, or murder the two side will have to just disagree. If it does there are already laws against assault, theft, and murder. You can't legislate for people to like you or agree with you.
I find it ironic that there are some that are so adamant about being sticklers to Dictionary definition orthodoxy of the term transgender. While the transgender phenomenon got started by breaking out of the dictionary definition of man and woman.
I suppose a new group is forming instead of gendernoncomformist it will be transgendernoncomformist :D
That is the fear talking. Fear of being rejected. Fear of being ridiculed. Fear for getting HURT. Those are all legitimate fears, but at some point you have to swallow hard and go ANYWAY.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Which I see as 'accept ME' vs 'I am now in the accepted zone'. Again, perfectly natural.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
<good quotes>
We must be our own best advocates. WE put up with stuff because THEY don't get it. THEY won't get it until we don't back down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
I go to the store in a skirt, painted toes and pretties, while sporting a bull frame and a beard. I am ME, dammit. If someone wants to confront me over that, then I have made the decision to have that confrontation.
I guess it comes down to that, the willingness to have that confrontation. If you still feel unsafe enough to need to be small and protect yourself, then ok.. I will have your back in any way I can. But I have to say that you don't HAVE to do that! It is about confidence and trust in yourself. Poker is all about position and bluffing. They want to see if you *blink*.
Don't blink. Don't apologize for being yourself. Please.
<3
- MM
What I believe:
- The majority of crossdressers have a touch of gender dysphoria. I don't buy that the lure of the clothes by itself is enough to get most to dress. If it was just about the clothes, why do people have buy, purge, buy, purge cycles? That suggests that there is a basic guilt for something that they are compelled to do.
- Current debates about transsexuals using restroom facilities consistent to their presentation has a knock-on effect for crossdressers. If this never gets worked out, we will be forced to use men's restrooms while dressed or whiz behind a tree or whatever. We have a vested interest in this.
- Since we do not have a united front and a common set of definitions, it's hard to call out the media when they misuse terms such as transgender. Who would correct them? Trying to splinter off in 37 different varieties does NOT serve us well.
- How do we get the general public to understand what we are about if we cannot understand and agree within our own community? If not, we can only accept the misinformation (accidental AND purposeful) that exists in the general population. We have no basis for complaint.
- While there may be no crossdressing-specific statutes, if law enforcement wishes to make life difficult for crossdressers, any number of generalized laws will do. It is very easy.
- To my way of thinking, ANYONE who dresses in such a manner as to cross from the assigned gender at birth to the opposite gender IS Transgender. Motivations are immaterial. Durations are immaterial. Goals are immaterial. Evidently, ones desire to do this is stronger than the need to support accepted gender-specific practices of dress.
DeeAnn
DeeAnn,
I could not agree with you more, honey.
Nothing else matters if you do not believe in yourself.
If you/we have doubts, then our predators will feast on that. We have every right to be here, we have every right to claim our space. That is 'free cheese' unless we stand up otherwise.
I am SO sad that so many of us don't have the room to be 'glorious' and sweep aside all this crap. We are *blessed* people, not 'broken'people.
I guess I'm just sad that so many of us feel like we are 'broken people'.
<3
- MM
I seen this thread earlier and have been thinking about this topic on and off throughout the day. I do agree that CDs should have their spot under the TG umbrella. But in my opinion clothes do not define or effect a persons gender, after all they are just material items made by people. Gender is defined in two parts physically and mentally, the physical part can be changed to co-inside with the mental part to make TS's who they are in mind and body. To me some one that is a CIS gendered male and wears a dress and acts in his mind "Feminine" is as much TG as a cat is a dog. If there is no gender dysphoria is the person really TG? Or just an actor/actress wearing a costume and playing a role? Some CD's may like to think that their need to dress runs deeper, but in the end it is usually just for sexually gratification.
Yeah, but perhaps we CDrs are in a little denial because for most of us crossdressing is much more than just wardrobe. We get wigs, breast forms, wear make-up, perfume, nails, so we want to present as females to ourselves, if we are closeted, and be seen as females to the public, if we are out. hence all the concern about passing. So there is a little more going on here than just fabric color and feel. My CD may be deeper than even I care to admit. There is the girl inside that ebbs and flows at times. That's a gender issue not a fashion issue.
And there I am totally in your corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Candice Mae
But it isn't about clothes...
I'm sorry Hon, I have to disagree. I'm a full-on bull stud who cares about drapes. Identity isn't a light subject. We are 'messing with the machinery', honey. We are mixing modes, crossing streams, confusing mundanes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Candice Mae
This has less to do with desire, as much at it has to do with who we *care* about and who we want on the end of our bits. You gotta LIKE someone before you want more, yes? If you LIKE them, then do you really care what bits (you or they) have? I don't care how hot you are, I don't care how you present, I don't care how FERTILE you display.
If I'm not into you, it doesn't matter.
I'm a 6'2", 265# XY who feels more at home in a skirt and cami than shorts and a T. I have pierced ears, I paint (all) my nails, I have long hair and a cropped beard. I wear mascara. I advise my wife on what presents well, she doesn't 'get' it without me. She is a guy in a girl-bear body. She just sees the 'bear' part.
I can only lust-rail critters I CARE about.
What gender am I? (Most days, I don't know myself)
You tell me, sweetie,
<3
- MM
MM:Quote:
Originally Posted by mechamoose
Thanks!
I firmly believe this is true: In the absence of information, people make up their own.
Since we as a community have never come together and put our flag in the ground, folks in the media just went off on their own and picked what made sense to them. Unfortunately, that doesn't do us any good and it will be even more difficult in the future to get terms corrected.
CM:Quote:
Originally Posted by Candice Mae
Clothes are the medium of expression. The clothes project the reality that the person is trying to pass along.
AM:Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnieMac
I agree. There is likely more going on than just the fabric...
DeeAnn
You kind of contradict yourself MM, you say it isn't about the clothes but then use clothes/cosmetics to distance yourself from being a CIS male. Just because a male doesn't fit societies ideal of what he should do or wear doesn't necessarily mean he has gender dysphoria.Quote:
Originally Posted by mechamoose
Candice make the point that CDs should not fall under the TG umbrella. I agree, yet I disagree. In my earlier post (#27) I expressed my feeling upon joining this forum as a CD, that I wasn't comfortable being included under the TG umbrella as I felt that there was a big gap between myself and the TS folks, so from that point of view I agree with Candice.
The counterpoint is that there is a spectrum under the TG umbrella, some of us fall at one end, some at the other and some in between those extremes. Also, how many here can say that they have not moved along that spectrum? Are you still exactly where you were two years ago? (What is the difference between a CD and a TS? answer, two years. I'm not saying this is true for all, but we have seen that it is for some.) So if the TG umbrella doesn't include CDs then I think that the umbrella is a pretty small one, it doesn't represent a spectrum at all. So if only TSs are TG, then what are the rest of us?
Although I don't identify as TS or ever believe that I will, I have a great empathy for those that are traveling that road and if I can in any way lend my clout (if I have any) to the TS cause I am willing to be counted. There seem to be a lot more CDs that TSs, if we are all under one umbrella we make bigger numbers and we all know that politicians only pay attention to groups with numbers.
So on that count I disagree with Candice. So where do I go now? Maybe the dog house!
This thread has lead to a very interesting discussion that is important for this community.
Hugs, Bria
Funny thing about all of this is, most people and the media can understand and wrap their heads around someone who is "transgendered" and wants to live as a woman, whether there is full transition down the road or not. "Oh OK, he is one of those women trapped inside a mans body!" What does not compute for them is a guy like me that likes the look and feel of females clothes, make-up hair, and how I look and feel in them from time to time. There are times I want to feel female and others not. I guess It's kind of like the Tom Boy thing. There are days when i guess you would say I am a "Nancy Boy", and want to feel pretty and female. That hadn't the slightest thing to do with really wanting to live as a women, and that flat out doesn't make sense to people. Why would a guy ever want to wear sissy clothes? That's why we are so far down on the acceptability chart in life.
I'm amazed that my example of a CIS male CD not being TG was interpreted as all CDs are not TG... Just because a male likes to wear females clothes doesn't necessarily mean he has gender dysphoria, which if you look up the definition of TG is very important.
B:
I understand what you mean. I would consider myself a semi-active crossdresser. I hang out with 2 groups in different cities and I am likely go out fully dressed 2-3 times per month. I dress at home, neck down, maybe 3-4 times per week. I am 66 and as far as I can recall, I don't ever remember thinking that I should be a female. I don't think that I have ever had that experience.
However, I have always enjoyed shopping and putting an outfit together is fun to me. Actually, that is true in guy mode and girl mode. The clothes then represent that part of me that comes from some degree of feminine identification.
CM:Quote:
Originally Posted by Candice Mae
I suspect that only a relatively small portion of crossdressers seek professional help. I doubt it is anywhere close to most. As I said earlier, I do believe that crossdressers do have a bit of gender dysphoria. But, they wouldn't probably know unless they had seen a professional. Further, the bit of crossdressing that they do is probably sufficient to keep the dysphoria from ever boiling over.
DeeAnn
Ok, Candice, let's work that out for our mutual benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Candice Mae
I *do* have GD, but I'm in a special place where I don't have the slightest desire or need to 'correct' that. I have known for a long time that I am not either/or, I am both. I GET that people could do 'choice A' from column 1. I also understand that that is not the only available choice. Much less the best choice.
I am a big, stupid male with fashion sense. I can be a swishy girl all day long in boy-jean shorts and a T. I allow myself the room to wear girl clothes in order to validate myself. My wife is jealous of my 'girl mode' wardrobe. She gives me grief only because I can wear 'prettier' stuff than her, and that I get two wardrobes to her one.
I allow and enforce myself to be FEMALE while inhabiting an XY body regardless of what I would/should be doing as a 'stock jock'.
I FEEL female. I *interact* as a female. I am a girl in a stupidly male body. I'm girl inside an alien body, hon.
I'm all here for discussion, sweetie.
- MM