Is the world today leaving us here behind?

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12-08-2015, 10:35 PM
Mayo

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Walling this off in a new forum, or "Media" isn't too great either though because those sub-fora just don't have the readership of this one. I'm hesitant to spend a lot of time writing something that will be seen by 10 people.

What about a subforum named 'Activism'? Those who want to look can do so, while those who don't can stay in the main forums. I get the feeling, however, that your audience would probably be limited to a dozen (or fewer) regular contributors regardless of where it's located. In addition, the rules on 'political discussions' might have to be somewhat modified (or at least clarified) for such a forum as activism is pretty much inherently political.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulaQ

What I really wish we had here was a place to seriously discuss relationships and sexuality.

I realize that 'Have you slept with a guy' doesn't constitute a serious discussion of the sort I imagine you're contemplating. I don't see anything in the FAQ/Rules forbidding frank discussions of sexuality as long as nobody's posting images or using 'foul language', though I'm not sure if the rule against 'explicit sexual content' might shut something like that down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasminepp

I myself am guilty of not using the media page as the title misled me and I assumed it was more to do with pop culture, celebrities etc.

Likewise.
12-08-2015, 11:10 PM
Jazzy Jaz

I agree with Mayo's forum title Activism. Then it would be clear to everyone what the forum is about and those who wish to partake can while others dont even need to look at it. I share Paula Qs concern about small numbers reading it and I would encourage for non member guests to be able to access it as it would have the potential to provoke thought and maybe encourage some of the guests who are looking for this type of discussion to become members.
12-08-2015, 11:32 PM
Gretchen_To_Be

Quote:

Originally Posted by arbon

What are you being left behind from really?

Most crossdressers are really only held back by their own ego and fear - not so much because of how they are viewed and treated by others.

The issues of a crossdresser and transsexuals are oceans apart.

Well put. There are plenty of crossdressing members who are brave and tough enough to go out in public, and readily explain to people they meet that they don't want to be women, they just enjoy dressing that way. There is no pretense there; they know they are men, don't pretend to pass, and I think some enjoy the engagement--and yes--controversy of it. They have conquered the fear of what people think of them...and they are "stateswomen" for the CD cause indeed. I respect them greatly! That requires quite a bit of ego and self confidence. If that's what you mean by ego and fear, I agree. Those that move beyond that are amazing free spirits. Then there are those that wonder what would happen if they met a boss, coworker, relative or friend in that situation. Fearful indeed.

I believe part of that fear is not of whatever repercussions or embarrassment one would face personally by presenting in public, but of the thrall or inexorable pull those public outings might have. So, you go out dressed the way you see yourself in your mind's eye. You are not outed, you have pleasant interactions...you meet kind, sympathetic people or fellow CDs...doesn't that reinforce all the good feelings about CD? You do it more and more, get better and better at it...and then wonder what it would be like to just live that way? I suspect many self-proclaimed crossdressers are really on the TS end of the spectrum but the fear wins out.

Maybe some CDs will never experience or feel that pull, but as many have expressed here...going out and interacting with the wide world are the first steps. They thrive on living as the alter ego until it is no longer "alter."

What about the effect a transition would have on others? How do you deconstruct a few decades living a lie without doing major damage on loved ones? There is big fear there--and justified. We don't live in a vacuum.

The longer I spend on this forum, the more I believe that most CDs...if they were honest with themselves...would or could envision more. But as you point out, they are held back. For some, the pull forward wins out. For others, situational factors give them pause. I don't know that it is all ego and fear. Maybe it could be love for others, or respect, or knowing the destruction transition would leave in its wake.

You have my immense respect for following your path, but it's not for everyone, and the timing has to be right. They are oceans, to be sure...but you start with tidal flats, then shallows, and at some point after treading water you see the drop-off of the continental shelf and then just abandon caution and swim for the other shore. Some drown. Some make it to the other side.

Gretchen
12-08-2015, 11:41 PM
CathyWallace

The world has radically changed in the last 2 decades. No person is getting left behind, but some are being run over. This forum may no longer be on the cutting edge of social change, but thank goodness that it isn't.
12-09-2015, 10:48 AM
Rhonda Jean

[QUOTE=Gretchen_To_Be;3857953 So, you go out dressed the way you see yourself in your mind's eye. You are not outed, you have pleasant interactions...you meet kind, sympathetic people or fellow CDs...doesn't that reinforce all the good feelings about CD? You do it more and more, get better and better at it...and then wonder what it would be like to just live that way?
Gretchen[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. My therapist points out that one of the factors in my gender equation is that I only do the fun stuff when I'm dressed. That's a big part of the escape aspect of it. When I'm dressed I don't do anything I don't want to do. It's left to the male side to do all the work and shoulder the responsibility, so I get an even further skewed view of being a woman.
12-10-2015, 06:31 PM
sometimes_miss

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenni_xx

Your response does not help, for what you have effectively stated is that you'll have your (anonymous) say, then retreat back into your own safe world. You, by definition, are helping no one.

I disagree. I'm one of the closeted. As such, I get to hear the uncensored opinions of what people REALLY feel about us. And that's very different from what they all will say to your face, whether you want to believe that or not.
It also allows me to argue on our behalf as one of their own; one of the 'normal' people. And it makes a much bigger impact when it comes from 'one of their own' than it does when it comes from one of those whose lives that are under discussion.
12-10-2015, 07:26 PM
PaulaQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_To_Be

I believe part of that fear is not of whatever repercussions or embarrassment one would face personally by presenting in public, but of the thrall or inexorable pull those public outings might have. So, you go out dressed the way you see yourself in your mind's eye. You are not outed, you have pleasant interactions...you meet kind, sympathetic people or fellow CDs...doesn't that reinforce all the good feelings about CD? You do it more and more, get better and better at it...and then wonder what it would be like to just live that way? I suspect many self-proclaimed crossdressers are really on the TS end of the spectrum but the fear wins out.

Yup, that's certainly possible, that more folks here than are suspected would transition. But I'll say more about that in a minute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_To_Be

What about the effect a transition would have on others? How do you deconstruct a few decades living a lie without doing major damage on loved ones? There is big fear there--and justified. We don't live in a vacuum.

The longer I spend on this forum, the more I believe that most CDs...if they were honest with themselves...would or could envision more. But as you point out, they are held back. For some, the pull forward wins out. For others, situational factors give them pause. I don't know that it is all ego and fear. Maybe it could be love for others, or respect, or knowing the destruction transition would leave in its wake.

Allow me to say some things about this:
1. You seem to be under the illusion that you, me, or anyone else who transitions had a choice in this. We did not. Your gender is a force that you cannot stop. If you need to transition, you will, or you will be destroyed.

2. Most of the damage to loved ones is self-inflicted. My ex-wife didn't have to kick me to the curb after I came out to her. In the process of doing that, she did a lot of damage to herself because of her reactions. Those reactions aren't my fault. Indeed, if you want to think about the damage we do, my plan B was suicide. I'd already tried it once. As crappy as this plan - transition - seemed, it was a LOT better than plan B, both for me, and for my family.

A lot of us do put this stuff off for a very long time just because we are trying to preserve the status-quo for loved ones. I certainly did that. I should've transitioned in 1990. I didn't because of my infant son. I then proceeded to make things worse for others by marrying my second wife, and never telling her about any of this stuff. So for 20 years, her life was materially better than it would otherwise have likely been.

So in that case, I helped one person, my son, and hurt another, my future wife. How much I really hurt her, as opposed to how much she hurt herself is debatable. Yeah, I get it she didn't want to stay married to a woman. I'd agreed to that, and we'd worked out a plan to ease her transition to life without me - when she just abruptly kicked me to the curb. At that point, I was in self-preservation mode - I needed a place to live!

It's a miracle I didn't end my life before the end of 2013 - I was that miserable. Had that happened, the damage she sustained would be far, far worse, at least financially, and at least as bad emotionally for her, and worse for our kids.

3. You also seem to think that the common path is to CD more and more, going out in public more and more, until transition is inevitable. That does happen for some, but that's not true for most of us. It definitely was not true for me. I didn't leave the house, fully dressed, until after I'd come out, and realized that I had to transition, at least in some form. I didn't fully dress until about a month before I came out to myself as trans, and two months before I came out to my wife.

Let me just reiterate this - you do not control this. You can feel you have control by stopping it for a time, but you do this at your peril. By the time I started transition, I'd waited far too long, and had HRT not had a rapid and dramatic effect on how I felt emotionally, I'd have been dead before the end of the year. I barely hung on until I got HRT. Not all of us experience this - but it's a lot more common than you'd like to believe.
12-10-2015, 08:00 PM
Sky

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulaQ

You seem to be under the illusion that you, me, or anyone else who transitions had a choice in this. We did not. Your gender is a force that you cannot stop. If you need to transition, you will, or you will be destroyed.

Sorry but that's not an illusion, it's a fact. We humans have choices in every decision we make. Whether repressing a decision you want to make because of external social factors -family, work, environment, you name it- may be terrible (though not necessarily so), it's always a possibility and does not have to end in your "destruction". I understand you went through really bad times, and I respect your drive to make others consider the issue seriously. But every one of us is a universe in itself. There are no "one size fits all" rules.
12-10-2015, 08:23 PM
PaulaQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky

Sorry but that's not an illusion, it's a fact. We humans have choices in every decision we make. Whether repressing a decision you want to make because of external social factors

You need to listen to me. For people who really are transsexuals, without transition, destruction is a likely outcome, and for some of us, it is inevitable.

I've been sober for 26 years. I tell people "I'm powerless over alcohol" - and that's true. If I drink, I'll completely lose control and be back where I used to be. I cannot control it. Should that happen, there is no assurance that I'll ever return to a state of sobriety again. Death, in my case, would be a probably outcome. That's the path I was on 26 years ago. My only choice, the only path where I have control, is the choice to not drink at all. All other options lead to destruction for me.

So I have some familiarity with forces that are beyond my control. Sobering up was not easy - I was a chronic alcoholic. I had to drink in the mornings to steady my hands. I'd been drinking for all of 8 years by that point. Many, many people do not recover from alcoholism.

When the gender dysphoria I experienced hit a new, all-time high in 2012 / 2013 - I realized that I was dealing with something that made the compulsion I had to drink alcohol seem trivial, by comparison. It wasn't a little bit more powerful than I was. I wasn't powerless in that it was twice as powerful as me, or ten times as powerful. No, it felt orders of magnitude more powerful than I was. And it did very nearly destroy me.

I have watched the same thing happen to other trans people. It doesn't happen to all of us, but it happens to enough of us that this is nothing to trivialize. I really thought I could control this, keep it clamped down. I did so for 18 years or so - during those times, I didn't dress *at all*. No cross gender stuff. During my suicide attempt, I realized what a fool I'd been.

The emotional pain I suffered from GD was not survivable. There is NO physical threat or torture you could make that I fear more than having those feelings again. If you held a gun to my face, and told me, "go back to being a man, or I will shoot you here on the spot", I'd tell you to pull the trigger, and get it over with. I wouldn't think twice about that. There is, and I want you to really understand this, NOTHING I wouldn't do to avoid those feelings again. Should I ever suffer from them again (unlikely - I feel great now and believe I'm unlikely to have them again thanks to my transition), I'd end my life immediately. I will not go back to those feelings. Medications didn't stop them. Nothing stopped them except for my transition.

I've seen people on this forum from time to time who are similarly afflicted to me. Some of them have gone on to transition, and are living reasonable lives now. Had they not, my opinion is that their survival was unlikely.

So no, most of you won't face this. But enough do that you should take this seriously. A great many of us suicide, and that might seem selfish, but if it does, it's only because you don't understand what this feels like. I wouldn't wish what I experienced on convicted terrorists.

If you are fortunate enough to be able to put off transition for your entire life, then you are lucky. You didn't get what I got, I guess. The trouble is - I didn't know how bad this was until it got really, really out of control bad. Had someone told me what I risked, I might have taken different actions earlier in my life, before it became a situation where my choices were "transition, or die."
12-10-2015, 08:28 PM
Acastina

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky

Sorry but that's not an illusion, it's a fact. We humans have choices in every decision we make. Whether repressing a decision you want to make because of external social factors -family, work, environment, you name it- may be terrible (though not necessarily so), it's always a possibility and does not have to end in your "destruction". I understand you went through really bad times, and I respect your drive to make others consider the issue seriously. But every one of us is a universe in itself. There are no "one size fits all" rules.

With respect, I'm not sure you comprehended Paula's whole quote or the rest of her explanation: "If you need to transition, you will, or you will be destroyed." and "Plan B was suicide."

I read her post as much more personal and as advice offered to the deeply conflicted, not at all as a universal prescription for anyone else here. I disagree that we have choices in every decision we make, unless you mean that denial to the point of despair, substance abuse, or self-harm is a choice. Hanging fire indefinitely IS a choice in that sense, but her point was (I believe) that you can run, but ultimately can't hide, from gender issues that are larger than wanting to cross-dress now and then (or even often). It is no favor or service to loved ones to live in misery on the edge of despair because you fear the truth will hurt them, because there's always something (and a lot a big things) held back and not fully lived. Trouble is, life goes on, and each of us only gets so much time; put it off too long, and you have a wasted life.

I suspect that most members here are not that deeply conflicted, but choosing to deal with it some other time can be a trap from which one may find it's too late to exit. Correct me if I'm wrong, Paula, but that's how I read your post.
12-10-2015, 08:33 PM
ReineD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky

We humans have choices in every decision we make.

With regard to transition, I think there's a large swath of people who could go either way and honestly, their own personal life circumstances will dictate how far they want to take this. This explains, IMO, the decision to not transition fully for so many people.

But, there are a few individuals who have NO choice. They are at the furthest end of the disphoric spectrum and for them, the choice is to either transition or die.
12-10-2015, 08:56 PM
PaulaQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acastina

but her point was (I believe) that you can run, but ultimately can't hide, from gender issues that are larger than wanting to cross-dress now and then (or even often).

Yes, that's precisely what I meant. You don't know how big this is for you until you do. And by then, it may be too late.

Look, if you feel little or minimal depression and anxiety, and have never felt suicidal because of gender issues, you are likely in no danger at the moment. The thing is, if you start to feel those things, and they are worsening, then you need to seek help. People here look at positive stuff - stuff like how much and how often you dress. That is really the tip of the ice berg. The part below water is things like depression, and so that's what you need to pay attention to. It's the stuff you can't readily see that us so dangerous.
12-10-2015, 09:02 PM
Gretchen_To_Be

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulaQ

1. You seem to be under the illusion that you, me, or anyone else who transitions had a choice in this. We did not. Your gender is a force that you cannot stop. If you need to transition, you will, or you will be destroyed.

You also seem to think that the common path is to CD more and more, going out in public more and more, until transition is inevitable. That does happen for some, but that's not true for most of us. It definitely was not true for me. I didn't leave the house, fully dressed, until after I'd come out, and realized that I had to transition, at least in some form. I didn't fully dress until about a month before I came out to myself as trans, and two months before I came out to my wife.

Let me just reiterate this - you do not control this. You can feel you have control by stopping it for a time, but you do this at your peril. By the time I started transition, I'd waited far too long, and had HRT not had a rapid and dramatic effect on how I felt emotionally, I'd have been dead before the end of the year. I barely hung on until I got HRT. Not all of us experience this - but it's a lot more common than you'd like to believe.

Hi Paula. Thanks for the discourse. Your experience is just that--your experience. It's not transferable to everyone suffering from some level of gender dysphoria. Believe me, I've had bad days, where I am sickened by the hypocrisy in my life, and ashamed of how much mental energy, time, and money I devote to CD, which could be devoted to my wife, children, job or some more productive endeavor. I'm often repulsed by my male--hairy--muscular--bony body, and I lament the effect of decades of testosterone. I've been a click away from ordering black market hormones from online pharmacies. I've had two visits with a gender therapist. I've looked into the local Planned Parenthood clinic to find the name of the transgender sympathetic doc that will start me on my journey.

Other days, I enjoy being a successful husband/father/business executive. Life is good. Those days I tell myself it's not worth throwing it all away, especially at my age.

Sure, GD never goes away...but it's not the all-consuming force for me that it was/is for you. I am under no illusion that you had a choice. I am grateful that I have one. But I also know that I am on that ledge...and if I ever got really good at CD...to the point that I could contemplate transition without making an absolutely farcical spectacle of myself...that it could influence my decision. I don't like making people feel uncomfortable. I don't want to be some champion of diversity. I'm not saying you are any of those things; again, this is very personal for me. I want to be graceful and classy, and behave with conviction and principle--the way I believe I present as a male. If I progress to the point where I could do that, then maybe all bets are off. Then there are my wife and my children. My wife is an adult and if I get to that point...well I guess it's her decision. But my children are innocent. They will be affected. And until they are older, I feel the weight of that responsibility.

For you it was black and white--transition or die--I get it. Can you accept that for some of us, there is grey? Under the right circumstances, I can see myself living as a woman. Hell, I think about it every day. But on the bright side, I have never been suicidal. I can't imagine that. I'm sincerely happy that you got out of that dark place.

The "more and more" path is well documented. I've only been actively CDing for 3 years, and I've seen many go this route. It may not be the path for everyone, but it is certainly common. My gender therapist told me that she's seen quite a few cases. I guess we can debate the statistical difference between "common" and "most" but what's the point? I concede that you are a verified TS, and your experience is valid. Can you envision a CD with TS tendencies that is able to keep the genie bottled up, for whatever reason?

Cheers

Gretchen
12-10-2015, 09:52 PM
PaulaQ

@Gretchen - of course I can accept that there are shades of grey, many paths people take to start transition. The majority of this forum will die of natural causes without transition. There is no question about this.

The important things to really look at within yourself are two things:
1. How badly do I feel about my gender? Is that getting worse?
2. Who am I? What is my gender?

I hope none of you reading this view my hitting the wall of "transition or die" as some kind of acid test. That would be a lot like having your doc tell you - "you have blockage of your arteries, you need to make some changes," and then waiting until you were in the hospital for angioplasty, thus confirming your heart trouble, to do anything about your heart disease.

Waiting to hit the wall is an idiotic thing to do! I was certainly stupi

As for it being a unique experience to me, I beg to differ. I spent my summer vacation trying to get a trans woman I know out of a psychiatric hospital after her suicide attempt that was brought on by her insurance provider refusing to cover GRS for her. So she tried to jump off a roof, and got put into the men's ward of a psych hospital, which of course had no idea how to treat a trans woman.

There are plenty of other examples of this that I'm aware of. There's a highly probable one on this very forum right now.

I don't know if you know this about me, but I lead a support group for trans people here in Dallas. Unfortunately, I deal with things like this frequently. I know a great many trans people, both men and women.

I've reached out to a number of members here who were in crisis.

What all of you need to understand about your lives is how little control you have over them, really. At best you are on a surf board, riding a wave. You control your reactions, but you have zero control over the wave you ride.

To get back to the original topic, about being left behind, many LGBT people are being visible, open, and leading more authentic lives. Not doing this can be shown for every single group to lead to serious emotional and health consequences. Do any of you SERIOUSLY think you are immune from such effects? That your closet is actually making you safer? Because it isn't.

Living a lie, being fake, even if the truth is just "I'm a feminine man. I cross dress, I don't know why," will grind you down and make you sick of miserable. I'm not talking about transition unless that's what a person needs. But look, millions of other LGBT people have come out. I know it's hard, but most of them survive the process, and their lives are at least better because they no longer hide constantly.

edit: one last thought. Would everyone who feels they are in good control of their gender please stop crossdressing altogether, because it will make your life so much easier? What's that? You can't? Then why are people who aren't in control of something like this so sure they are in control over whether they will ultimately transition or not? I'm not saying y'all will - most won't. I'm telling you that YOU are not driving this. IT is driving you.
12-10-2015, 10:59 PM
Mayo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_To_Be

For you it was black and white--transition or die--I get it. Can you accept that for some of us, there is grey?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReineD

With regard to transition, I think there's a large swath of people who could go either way and honestly, their own personal life circumstances will dictate how far they want to take this. This explains, IMO, the decision to not transition fully for so many people.

But, there are a few individuals who have NO choice. They are at the furthest end of the disphoric spectrum and for them, the choice is to either transition or die.

It seems that everybody is arguing the same point from different directions. I believe that both can be true, for different people - or for the same person at different times. While it isn't exactly the same thing, there are many gay men and lesbians who spend their lives in heterosexual marriages and never cheat, but who are unhappy because they are not with the person with whom they'd prefer to be; sometimes they do cheat, and marriages come to an end. Similarly, there are trans people who suffer little to no gender dysphoria but are still unhappy because they are not living as the people they should be. For many - GD or not - the stress eventually takes its toll, and the stats on suicide and mental health among trans people clearly support this. Yes, some can and do handle it without transitioning. Many cannot and do not. Some do not make it.

The more it is an integral part of your being, the more strongly trying to deny it will affect you, and I think this is an important part of what PaulaQ is trying to say. I might even suggest, for the sake of argument, that there's a difference between 'a man who sometimes puts on women's clothing' and a 'crossdresser' - the latter is an identity and denying that identity will create stress and pain, whereas the former is essentially a hobby and those who don't really care if they dress or not, or who do so only rarely, may not be impacted in a major way if they can't. It seems to me that most of the people on this forum experience various (non-zero) levels of compulsion about dressing, such that not doing so will cause at least some psychic discomfort, which will in turn have physical effects on health. Can we say for certain that someone's heart attack wouldn't have happened five years later, or even at all, if they'd been able to freely express themselves rather than repress that part of their identity?
12-10-2015, 11:11 PM
PaulaQ

Mayo gets it.

Trading material possessions or even relationships for happiness or at least being who you truly are, is for suckers. These are the things most of you fear to lose. I understand that. But NOTHING outside of you will make you happy. Happiness, feeling like your life has meaning and richness, that comes from within. I can't promise that being open about your identity will bring you happiness. In fact, it may cause you some problems. (Feel free to read *any* thread I've started here if you think I have a "you go girl, nothing bad can happen!" attitude about any of the things we discuss here. I talk openly about plenty of problems I've encountered.)

What I can tell you with certainty, though, is that lying about who you are will insure that you aren't happy. This applies as much to CDs as it does to trans women. The difference between someone like me, and someone like a lot of you, is that I didn't have the luxury to keep up the pretense any longer. I hit the wall.
12-10-2015, 11:23 PM
Sallee

Great post I just post my thoughts on spending almost a week as Sallee, one word "Fun" I think you make some good points, a lot of them I personally think are non issues, but others probably need to be discussed. This forum should be the place for that and they can be open, honest, and non threatening.
Thanks for you post I''ll have to think on it awhile
12-10-2015, 11:51 PM
Gretchen_To_Be

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Mayo gets it.

Trading material possessions or even relationships for happiness or at least being who you truly are, is for suckers. These are the things most of you fear to lose. I understand that. But NOTHING outside of you will make you happy. Happiness, feeling like your life has meaning and richness, that comes from within. I can't promise that being open about your identity will bring you happiness. In fact, it may cause you some problems. (Feel free to read *any* thread I've started here if you think I have a "you go girl, nothing bad can happen!" attitude about any of the things we discuss here. I talk openly about plenty of problems I've encountered.)

What I can tell you with certainty, though, is that lying about who you are will insure that you aren't happy. This applies as much to CDs as it does to trans women. The difference between someone like me, and someone like a lot of you, is that I didn't have the luxury to keep up the pretense any longer. I hit the wall.

What a terrible and mean thing to say. I admire your courage, no doubt. I've read your posts...all the pain and suffering. What you went through was supremely difficult.

I guess I am a sucker if I put the well being of my wife and children before my own. I guess I was a sucker when I spent 25 years in the United States Army, when my version of courage was putting my life on the line defending a free society, giving you your right to be who you are without prejudice. Definitely a sucker for having a happy 15 year marriage and 3 beautiful children. And how misguided was I for succeeding in business to give my family a comfortable life, wanting for nothing?

It's not a "trade." Who I will be is yet to be determined. Who I am/was is clear. I've been a selfless leader to my family, business, society, the military, my employees and Soldiers my entire life. There has been pride and joy with all of that which dwarfs any gender issues I have.

I guess I don't get it. What I do get is this: I fear becoming a selfish, self-obsessed vain old woman lording over others in the TG spectrum because they just don't understand, and aren't moving 2,000 mph toward transition. Are you looking for allies? Validation?

You aren't making any sense...you say it's a "luxury" to be able to compartmentalize GD, yet you lash out at those who are able to. This "Woe is me, I am more trans than you, you don't get it" recurring theme on the forum is tiresome. There is no greater zealot than the convert. Maybe a bit of respect for individual circumstances is in order. If you represent what being a trans woman is, I want no part of it.
12-11-2015, 01:16 AM
PaulaQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_To_Be

I guess I am a sucker if I put the well being of my wife and children before my own. I guess I was a sucker when I spent 25 years in the United States Army, when my version of courage was putting my life on the line defending a free society, giving you your right to be who you are without prejudice. Definitely a sucker for having a happy 15 year marriage and 3 beautiful children. And how misguided was I for succeeding in business to give my family a comfortable life, wanting for nothing?

Hon, I apologize for saying it that way. Listen, you aren't a sucker at all, I shouldn't have said that. *I* was a sucker. I put everyone's happiness ahead of my own. I did it for decades. It doesn't always have to be about me, but the thing is, it was NEVER about me. The thing is - we only get one life to live, as far as any of us know. So when do we get anything for ourselves, those of us who sacrifice all for others?

I worked an enormous number of hours. I made a LOT of money. My wife had houses, cars, designer handbags - all sorts of things. My kids were happy. My wife was happy. I was miserable. I had all this stuff, all these things to show for my work - and it was all hollow to me. It was meaningless. I loved my wife. I hated having sex with her. I could buy anything I wanted, practically, at least within reason. I didn't want anything. None of it meant a thing to me. Ultimately, I bought a few things for myself because my wife really wanted me to have SOMETHING - I think she maybe felt a little guilty. So I did, but they meant little to me, for the most part. There was one exception to that, my observatory. I loved that. It took me a lot of time to build it and make it work. I grieved losing it after I came out. But it still didn't make me happy. It was a welcome distraction though - I was getting pretty burned out on work by that point, because that's all I ever did, work.

I had many of the things you speak of. I was married happily for 17 years. I had two kids. I grieved the loss of many things, during my transition. But at the end of the day, I found those things really weren't real - I had them because I lied about who I was. And they gave me little satisfaction or happiness. Don't get me wrong - I loved my wife. I miss her. I love my children still - only one of them really talks with me anymore. I continue to help all of them.

I'm handicapped, so unfortunately, the armed forces were not an option for me. But I'm not in a contest with you over bravery - I'll gladly concede that you are far braver than I am.

However, I'd challenge you about this one statement:

Quote:

giving you your right to be who you are without prejudice.

I respect what you did, but this country is about as prejudiced as can be. I've experienced a great deal of it first hand, and I haven't had the worst of it. I know that.

I used to believe what you said. I tried to live as a conservative, straight, white male. I believed in what the US stood for, believed we could do no wrong. And then I fell out of the bubble of privilege, and noticed a great many things that are just terribly wrong with this place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_To_Be

You aren't making any sense...you say it's a "luxury" to be able to compartmentalize GD, yet you lash out at those who are able to.

In a sense it is a luxury - you don't face death because you hide something about yourself. And not facing the worst of GD is definitely a blessing. You have time to plan what you might want to do, explore who you are, and figure out what, if anything you want to do about it.

Those things are nice. I didn't get them.

By the same token, I had to change. I had to come out. So now, I live a life that is authentic in ways that yours probably isn't. I hide nothing. It's wonderful. And I'm happy. And honestly, at this point, I can assure you that your GD is worse than mine is. Mine's basically gone. So which of us is better off? I mean I can't tell you or anyone else what would be better for you. But a lot of the things you take pride in sound like things I would've said - it was all stuff someone shoved down my throat at some point. None of it was what I wanted, and none of it made me happy. I hope it's different for you. I share my experiences because perhaps others will relate to them. If you don't, then I'm actually quite happy for you.

So I'm not saying you are wrong to do what you do, but I am challenging you to consider the alternatives. All of the stuff you speak of so proudly, and they are all great accomplishments, I am not trying to take that away from you - except for this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_To_Be

I guess I am a sucker if I put the well being of my wife and children before my own. I guess I was a sucker when I spent 25 years in the United States Army, when my version of courage was putting my life on the line defending a free society

Which of the things you did so well were for you? If these things feel like choices you made because they best represent who you are, then I stand corrected, and you have done precisely what you should've done. I only ask this, because I really did put others ahead of me to the point that my life was just terrible. It was unsustainable. Eventually, I was used up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_to_be

I fear becoming a selfish, self-obsessed vain old woman lording over others in the TG spectrum because they just don't understand, and aren't moving 2,000 mph hour toward transition. Are you looking for allies? Validation?

Well, I guess I am an old woman. I'm certainly vain enough. I'm probably self-obsessed, although really, I'm no big deal. I don't think I'm selfish, but then again, I wouldn't. (If you have an example of that, I'd appreciate hearing it. You can PM it to me, I suspect the mods will lose their sense of humor if this turns into a name-calling bout between us.) I'm sorry that you feel I'm lording things over you, or anyone else here. I'm not or at least that's not my intention - but I can understand why it comes across that way, and I apologize for saying things in a way that has clearly hurt your feelings. I'm very sorry, Gretchen, and anyone else here who's taken offense at my words. I have had a fair amount of experience dealing with my own gender issues, and with those of other trans people over the past nearly three years, that's all I was trying to convey. I'm very heavily involved in support and activism work in the trans community. Even an old bat like me can learn stuff when immersed in it! :)

I'm here because two and a half years ago, I attempted suicide, in part because of feedback I got from this forum. After I regained some small (and at the time it was quite small) modicum of stability after starting transition, I came back to this forum and started looking for others who were getting advice that was, on the whole, as ill conceived as some that I got. I looked for people who seemed to be having a hard time here. People who were WAY more desperate than the typical CDer here. Most of the people on this forum don't worry me in the slightest. You, and so many others here, in my opinion, are in no danger of harming yourself any time soon, if ever. I think the worst problem some of you have is that you just feel compelled to hide part of who you are. I know what that's like - I think it's hard to be happy while hiding yourself. Perhaps it's a small enough part of you that it isn't such a big deal, and I simply don't understand what it's like for you. If so, I apologize.

But no, I'm not looking for validation. I'm not looking for allies. I definitely don't want any of you to go at 2,000 MPH towards transition. I did that because I was desperate. It is about the worse way to deal with this stuff that I can possibly imagine. I hope, in that regard, that I am a negative example. I don't want you to look up to me! I want you to go "Geeze! I don't want to end up like her!" and then do SOMETHING to avoid such dire straits.

I'm mostly looking for people who seem as if they are liable to kill themselves, or at least thinking a bit much about it. And I try to steer those people towards help. I do that in my daily life, as part of the volunteer work I do in the community. People tell me I've saved some lives. I know the truth - it isn't enough. It will never be enough. I am just a person - I am limited. I will never be able to do enough. Nevertheless, I try. And I do this because I get things from it that, unfortunately, forum rules do not permit me to discuss.

As for threads like this, I'm trying to accomplish several things:
1. CDs and TSs have some common ground in the fight against people who'd suppress us both. Please help yourselves, because it will help others like me, too. (I guess in that sense, I am looking for allies.) Being out, and being visible, will in the longer term, solve a lot of problems all CDs face.

2. Gender dysphoria - which most of you have to some extent, in my opinion - is unpredictable, and often progressive. If it starts to get worse, please don't be like me - seek help, rather than burying the feelings until they are unstoppable. Note - by "seek help" I'm not saying you should transition. But counselling couldn't hurt.

3. I know you and others feel like you are in control of your gender issues. But you can't even stop cross dressing. How are you in control of anything? And I am not saying this to put you down - I didn't have any control over it either. Maybe it doesn't take you as far as I had to go. If not, I'm really happy for you. I mean that. But it will take you where it takes you - you have no say in the matter, whether you believe it or not. If you seem to have choice, it's because it allows that.

4. I am also suggesting that a side benefit of being out is that you will get to be authentic and real as a person in ways you almost certainly do not understand. If nothing else, doesn't the prospect of no longer hiding seem appealing? I hated hiding all the time. I'm asking that you at least consider this. Doesn't the thought of not hiding have an appeal? I've never met a gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender person who looked me in the eye and said "Dammit Paula, I long for my days back in the closet." And I know quite a few LGBT people.

One last thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_To_Be

This "Woe is me, I am more trans than you, you don't get it" recurring theme on the forum is tiresome.

I'm very sorry you took that from anything I have said here. Believe me, I have fought that attitude here, and in my real life. If somehow I have conveyed that I think you are lesser than me, then I am sincerely sorry for that, because nothing could be further from the truth. I usually refer to this attitude you've stated as "Trannier than thou." (Think "Holier than thou...")

I don't think my pain is any worse than yours - or rather, I don't think that makes me more valid than you. Actually a lot of folks on this forum are in quite a bit of pain. I don't think I'm better than you are. I think we are the same, really. That probably doesn't make you feel any better though! So let me say it like this. I tell the world who I really am on a daily basis. I didn't do that in the past, and I find that to be uncomfortable, and ultimately intolerable. Perhaps I'm simply a weak person. I don't know. Now that I do not do that, though, I find I am MUCH happier, and I find that not hiding who I am is a relief.

Please understand that there are quite a few CDs here who are out. I wouldn't recommend anyone be like me - I'm a hot mess! But there are many here who are pretty open or at least partly open about who they are. They survived, and they seem pretty happy, and are pretty cool people (again, unlike me) too! Isn't it worth thinking about what they have, even if you think I'm awful? (I'm really OK with you feeling that way about me - don't be like me! I waited until I could do nothing but barrel head first into something that needs planning. I survived, but I have to believe it was dumb luck, because I was dumb.) I offer my story as a cautionary tale for people here. If you identify with anything I write, please seek professional help immediately.
12-11-2015, 01:20 AM
Jazzy Jaz

Interestingly, similar to what Mayo said, I agree with MOST of what both of you have said.

Oh, and I agree with Reine D except I'd say more than a few.
12-11-2015, 11:59 AM
Mayo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_To_Be

I've been a selfless leader to my family, business, society, the military, my employees and Soldiers my entire life. There has been pride and joy with all of that which dwarfs any gender issues I have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gretchen_To_Be

In retrospect, I lost 11 years of enjoyment

If you feel that what you gained in validation was worth what you lost from denial, then you came out ahead and you are one of the lucky ones. On the other hand, if you are Leelah Alcorn, who was isolated by her parents, forced into 'conversion therapy' and committed suicide at 17, then it did not work out for you. I understand that your wife knows about your dressing and supports your need to do so. Do your neighbours? Your employer? Your old military buddies? If you don't need to do that, that's great. Leelah Alcorn did need to be out and to live as a woman, and she died as a result.

Again, you and PaulaQ are arguing different things, but they're just in different places on the same continuum. You're talking about your situation, and she's talking about hers, and they're different and so demand different responses.
12-11-2015, 12:58 PM
ReineD

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasminepp

Oh, and I agree with Reine D except I'd say more than a few.

A few or more than a few ... I guess we need to use vague terms because there are no real statistics to draw from. :p

I said "a few" based on how many people have joined this forum over the years (in the tens of thousands), vs. how many people have fully transitioned (in the hundreds, if that). I'm not counting people who get on mild doses of HRT but who live male lives save for occasional crossdressing and can give the appearance they are male if they keep their hair short and wear male clothing. I don't think that a TS whose Gender Dysphoria was pronounced, could live that way.
12-11-2015, 02:17 PM
Beverley Sims

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReineD

With regard to transition, I think there's a large swath of people who could go either way and honestly, their own personal life circumstances will dictate how far they want to take this. This explains, IMO, the decision to not transition fully for so many people.

But, there are a few individuals who have NO choice. They are at the furthest end of the disphoric spectrum and for them, the choice is to either transition or die.

This to me shows the heart of the discussion here, leaving out individual discussions later in the thread, the first paragraph applied to me many years ago and the second paragraph illustrates two of my friends who just had to transition.

They were very successful I might add.
12-11-2015, 02:47 PM
Rhonda Jean

All of us argue against a binary view of gender. Paula, I know you know that binary does not apply in the CD vs. ts argument, either. I'm certain your transgender issues are far greater than mine. Probably far greater than Gretchen's. They drove you to do things that neither she nor I will do. Gretchen is fully capable in speaking for herself, but I'll tell you (and you already know this) I've SUFFERED MIGHTILY because of what I am. Transitioned TS's don't have a monopoly on the difficulties brought on by cross-gender expression.

I agree with Reine on the "large swath of people who could go either way". I'm probably one of them. I may or may not be TS, but more importantly I'm not Paula. Your circumstance were/are uniquely yours. Your involvement and knowledge of this community is far greater than mine. I'm hardly and expert. I have, though, traveled way down the road. I don't think it's necessarily so that those of us who didn't go as far down the road are somehow less than someone else who didn't.
12-11-2015, 04:48 PM
PaulaQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

All of us argue against a binary view of gender. Paula, I know you know that binary does not apply in the CD vs. ts argument, either. I'm certain your transgender issues are far greater than mine. Probably far greater than Gretchen's.

Well look, I needed a bunch of medical stuff, but that's really neither here nor there. That isn't really the hardest part - at least if you have resources to get medical care. Not all of us have those resources. Not all of us NEED medical stuff. I did, but really, there's nothing special about that in my opinion. I am no more, nor no less legitimate than you, or Gretchen, or Mayo, or anyone else on here. Yeah, the label "transsexual" fits me well. There's nothing special about that compared with anyone else on the transgender spectrum though, at least in my opinion.

I think the really hard issues all of us face are how other people treat us, and how society does not want us to be who we are. And I think those issues are really common ones between us for the most part. Because they really aren't about who we are or our unique circumstances - they are about how other people don't want us to be ourselves, whatever that may be for us.

Here's the common kernel we share - all of us in this discussion at one point or another greatly feared rejection from:
- spouses
- family
- friends
- employers
- churches
- many others
simply because we aren't like other people in some way. We feared (or still fear) judgment, ostracism, loss - and we rightly feared these things. The discrimination, stigmatization, and erasure we've all faced is, I believe, common.

There may be some people here who love being closeted. But I think most would welcome being able to be ourselves - in the case of a CD, to cross dress, at home, or in public, without judgment, or really comment, other than "you look lovely today", perhaps. In my case, I did an entire gender transition. Most of you would do nothing of the sort. But all of us feared how the world would treat us. And that is our central problem and it isn't any worse for me than for you. Why shouldn't you be able to be open about who you really are? I mean, is that right? The fact that you feel you can't, isn't that something worth doing something about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

Gretchen is fully capable in speaking for herself, but I'll tell you (and you already know this) I've SUFFERED MIGHTILY because of what I am. Transitioned TS's don't have a monopoly on the difficulties brought on by cross-gender expression.

I can't imagine that there are any significant differences between your experience or Gretchen's and mine. Different stuff may have happened, but I have no doubt that virtually everyone on this forum who is gender variant has suffered because of it. What they've suffered has been unfair, unjust, and uncalled for. We did nothing wrong - but we're characterized as rapists and pedophiles by some in society. So I completely agree with you, and please, anyone, if anything has said leads you to believe that I think you don't suffer, or that your suffering is trivial, please understand that isn't the case. I know many CDs, both online, and in person. I can see the pain in your eyes. It looks exactly like the pain that was in mine. Our journeys will be different, but the pain is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

I agree with Reine on the "large swath of people who could go either way". I'm probably one of them. I may or may not be TS, but more importantly I'm not Paula. Your circumstance were/are uniquely yours. Your involvement and knowledge of this community is far greater than mine.

My circumstances are my own. No argument from me. The only point I try to make on this forum is that all of us, it seems to me, face some type or degree of gender dysphoria. Some of us just need to look like women, to some extent, once in a while, or at least wear the clothes. For others of us, we just are women. For still others, we're something in between. None of us chose this - and none of us ultimately know for sure where it will go. Most of you will NEVER EVER do what I've done. I'm happy for you, I really am. But there have been any number of members here who stated clearly "I've been doing this a long time. I know myself. I'll never transition!" who are now in transition.

So I think that, plus the fact that not a one of us can stop these things we feel for any great length of time, tells us we don't control this part of ourselves. We just don't. This is the thing I try to warn people about. I'm NOT saying you are going to transition, or even that you should. I'm saying that if that's what is in the cards for you, you'll do it, or it will ultimately destroy you. It's possible that "destruction" will come in the form of a life you are in, but really never fulfilled or happy. In some ways, that's the worst outcome.

I'm saying "if you have symptoms like I did, seek help immediately because you are very likely in real danger." Because I know what I went through, and I know I almost didn't make it. And I know that many trans women and men will NOT make it - they will die. And so I feel compelled to warn others about it. I literally could not sleep at night if I didn't. And sure, it's wasted on most of you - indulge me if you can, but it's helped a few people, or so I'm told.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

I'm hardly and expert. I have, though, traveled way down the road. I don't think it's necessarily so that those of us who didn't go as far down the road are somehow less than someone else who didn't.

I value the identity of everyone on this forum as much as I value my own. I think you are all legitimate. I'm a transsexual - big deal. I am no better than any of you. I'm not special. I do have some experiences - I try to share them. I hope they help someone. That's really my point for being here. I look for desperate people, and try to get them to seek help.

I suppose the main point I've tried to make in this thread, though, is that being closeted is, increasingly, a thing of the past. It's one thing to hide because you are doing something wrong, and don't want to get caught. But the folks on this forum who CD are NOT doing anything wrong. You should be able to express this part of yourself openly, honestly. You should be able to tell people about it, and do it in public. It should be OK to be a CD!

I assert that the fact that so many here feel they can't be open about this is just wrong. Not that y'all are wrong - there are good, practical reasons you feel the way you feel. Believe me, I know, I know pretty well what many here would experience because I've had to go through it myself. It's wrong I was treated the way I was treated. It's wrong that many of y'all feel you have to hide to avoid the same treatment I got!

So I suggest that, hard as this is, y'all would be better off, in the long run, to stand up and fight this battle. It's not fair to ask this of you - like I said - you didn't ask for this. But if you want a world where you are free to express yourself and to present as you want, you are going to have to come out and take it.

Living half a life, feeling the need to hide all the time, that is no kind of a life. A life where you are free from fear, where you can just be yourself, whatever that means to you - that is what is leaving you behind.

And the longer you wait, the further behind you'll be left.

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