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When I was growing up, kids used the word "gay" to refer to literally anything they thought wasn't cool. Those kids, for the most part, did not hate gay people. Should gay people have been okay with it because "they didn't mean it in a bad way"?
No. That is not how offense works. The same is true of men reducing women to their exterior/aesthetic, either explicitly or implicitly. You don't get a perpetual free pass just because you "didn't mean it like that".
This is an interesting discussion, but I don't think it will solve anything or reach agreement. There is no way that we will agree to a single resolve because we all bring different experiences. This discussion is like talking experiences of race, creed, or nationality. I've traveled a lot and have had those discussions on several different continents. Even those with almost identical backgrounds don't agree. I do like the discussion though.
lingerieLiz, I think we can at least try our best to understand each other. Yes there's no way for different people with different experiences to truly agree on something. But by talking more, we may come to find a shared experience that both side can relate with and understand each better.
Zooey, the "gay" example you brought up is different from "I feel like a woman". You brought a good example though that I can relate with, and that's a good start :) But, are you saying "I feel like a woman" is not cool and being used for bad things like "gay"? No, it's different. We are saying "I feel like a woman" just as an expression. If anything, it means very variably, from positive to negative. From the sound of your saying, I think you are thinking bad of "I feel like a woman" and finding it rude. Am I correct here? But what I'm saying is that it's all in your thought. No one here is saying "I feel like a woman", at least in forum here, not to imply something negative. It's more related to the feeling of being happy/excited/relaxed/aroused/accepted, which are more of positive things.
No one here is reducing women to their exterior/aesthetic. We still love and understand our female SO. And yet we still "feel like a woman" sometimes, because it makes us feel good. And the "didn't mean it like that" part, I have to ask, is it only just you who thinks negatively about all this, or it's rather more a pattern of all who identified as a woman? Until you can confirm that, your statement of "You don't get a free pass just because you didn't mean it like that" is rather weak. Because who knows other woman may not think overtly about this at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
- Bonnie
I think as long as people aren't getting personal, a discussion like this has a real chance to bring about some understanding. Kudos to both Zooey and Bonnie for sticking with it and for doing their best to be civil!
I'd like to say that for my part I think I have definitely reduced what being a woman is down to some trite component at least a few times in my life. I'm not proud of it, but it is something I've done in an attempt to relate, or for some other well-meaning purpose that still mansplained the world. I didn't have the wisdom or experience to even qualify my statements, let alone realize they were unhelpful. I have been growing a lot over this short life of mine, and hopefully keep my foot out of my mouth more often now, but the offenses are there, and I'm sure I'll make more. I have also seen things on this board I would qualify as reductionist and immature; for me that is a natural outcome when you have a group whose life is lived outside normality, and only can see the world they love through a keyhole. But my wife and others she's been getting support from are often offended at a man usurping their identities as if they were their own; it's something I've had to admit that I really do not understand. A person who has enjoyed the privilege of the powerful cannot come to understanding of the weak without giving up that power entirely. As a middle-class white man, I know that my picture of the world will always be incomplete. However, the more time I spend in areas where I am a minority, or living, even if only for a millisecond, as a woman, I start to at least be able to speak with some more empathy about these situations. Hopefully love will be the thing people hear from me, not judgement.
- Sandra
I briefly give my two cents, when I dress like a man , i feel mostly like a man ...I play sports, go to bar , chat with my friends, look at girls etc etc etc...In fact I would bet allot of people have no idea about anything I do.
ahhh, but when I dress like a girl, I do my best to look like a girl, feel like a girl etc...I love the feeling, feel femine and pretty much act like a girl...well maybe not voice and working on walk. I believe I am 60/40 guy gal. I can't get away from either side so I have accepted both sides. Of course I wish more people accepted me to, but Ill take what I can get.
I also saw someone say they only feel this way when they go out, I feel this way when I am around another person...it is acceptance which validates that it is ok to be the 40%. My wife is on the fence but at least she knows now...
I see some truth in both sides here but the term I thought I agreed with the most is, I only know what makes me feel like me...women or man...and as such, I only know.
At some of the parties, fully dressed, with a glass of wine...I feel like a hot chick...and that is good enough for me.
First of all, thank you to C&C, because that was a very well written and reasonable response.
Bonnie,
The kids I was talking about were absolutely just using "gay" as an expression. They did not mean it negatively towards homosexual people. That's the point - "it's just an expression" is not an excuse.
With respect, yes people are. How many times have you seen things like this posted here in one form or another, including a lot in this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan
"I feel like a woman when I put on clothes and makeup. The wig is when I feel complete as a woman."
That statement absolutely reduces women to their exterior. You, and other men who say this, are literally saying, "When i put on a woman costume, I feel like a woman", which says rather clearly that the costume is all that's required to feel like a woman. That's obviously not true. You can say the clothes make you feel "pretty", "soft", or even "feminine". All of those are completely reasonable things to say about typically feminine clothing. They have next to nothing to do with feeling like a woman.
That's the point.
To be honest, as a man I can't even say I know what it is like to "feel like a man". I only know how I "feel", I can't know how anyone else "feels". I know how I "feel", I don't know how other men "feel".
When en femme, I try to be a (traditional) "lady", the societal construct. I try to be a "lady", but I can't know how it feels to be a woman, just like I can't feel like it is to be anything else.
Thanks Jenny, sorry I didn't get back to this earlier. There's another thread going on now about what "feeling like a woman" means, and how valid it is when stated by MtFs who have not transitioned. A lot of CDers in that thread said that even though they say "I feel like a woman", they mean, "I feel [fill in the blank: happy/contented/excited/aroused/etc] when I dress like a woman and it makes me feel feminine even though I know I am a man".Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenny22
And so if you say "I feel like a woman" to other CDers, they'll understand what you mean. The rest of us are more literal and so it's important to elaborate a bit when you are talking to someone who is not a CDer.
P.S. And I don't knock people down for the way they feel. I'm just more of a stickler for finding more precise words ... words that don't get misconstrued, when people talk to each other who don't share the same experience. :)
No, guys are more likely to say (to themselves), "Man, I feel like a stud" when he notices that women are mouth-watering over him. lol. Same thing though. Both sexes are able to feel sexy and wanted and I agree, it feels good for the people who are in that phase of their lives. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy23
I think you haven't really got the significant difference between "gay" and "feel like a woman". "gay" word was used specifically to express a negative aspect of someone. "feel like a woman" is not, at least not intentionally by a male here. See, "gay" was used intentionally to insult someone and that makes a big difference, because it makes the word "gay" associated with negative meaning, and impact real gay people to have bad image too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
But "feel like a woman" is used for yourself, and I must say, why would anyone talk bad about yourself? Most male CDs have intention to just express the positive feeling by saying "I feel like a woman". So, I still don't understand why would you think this is offending woman in anyway. (And actually, I did get an answer from 1 GG that she said she didn't feel offended by this, mostly just confused why a male would say this...)
Okay, I now start to get your point where you're coming from that you're trying to defend overall woman image, because you identify yourself as one too. But I am not convinced yet why would CD dressing up and feel like a woman be related to reducing woman to be just exterior thing. And most of all, it's only CDers here who would say that in this forum, and we all understand clearly what it means and how it does not reduce woman to exterior for us. There's not much situation where CD would say this in public. Are you seeing the trend where people saying "feel like a woman when dressed up" would make woman look bad in public? If so, please do share the story, I'd be willing to hear more of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
- Bonnie
Fundamentally, to me femininity means having a female body. I feel feminine when I'm naked. I feel feminine when I'm wearing an old pair of jeans, putting up a tile backsplash. I feel feminine when I'm all dressed up too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan
What I choose to wear or not wear has no bearing on being connected to my womanhood or my femininity. Granted, wearing a pretty dress at a function, when my hair is just right and my makeup has taken 5 years off my age is good too, but that's just window dressing. It doesn't make me feel any more feminine than when I'm naked. When I was younger, I knew what to wear at clubs to get the guys to look at me and it made me feel good when they noticed, just like the guy who feels "Man, I'm a stud" when a girl falls all over him. So maybe he's wearing studly clothes that is causing this reaction in the girl, or maybe it's the fact that he has broad shoulders and slim hips and the clothes just accentuate that. But the fact remains that if he was naked in a room with her and she was still all over him, he'd still feel like a stud.
Because it implies that women who aren't all decked out the way CDers like to see women, somehow aren't as attractive? How many times have we seen in this forum, "I'm a lot more attractive or feminine than my wife".Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan
:thinking: I find it interesting that some here say they feel like "a girl" and they don't mean an immature female. (OK let's not take that side track ) :)
That is the way I look at it as well. While some here have said that the two terms can be interchangeable, I would rather think in much more general terms. Female is a biological distinction. Dogs, cats, horses, cows and most other living creatures are either male or female. But to me, a woman portrays a human female who portrays everything that is positive about being a female; she's got those intangibles that make a difference. It is hard for me to accept that a street-walking, drug using, foul-mouthed female is a "woman." None of those characteristics are womanly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Lacy PJs
Reine, I am relatively new to this(a little over a year) but I have felt feminine in jeans and a tee shirt and even in drab with panties. I do not claim to be or ever will be female but i do say we can feel feminine. Just my thoughts. Hugs Lana Mae
Zooey,
There appears to be a bitterness in your reply 69, you are putting words in some GGs mouths that aren't there.
I can say this now through my own experience of meetings other CDers, TSs and their partners. OK I accept I'm in a DADT situation but my wife has never suggested I'm offending her by suggesting part of me feels like a woman in fact she told me she accepts it and the same goes for all the other wives and partners I've met. They may not understand exactly how we feel but they don't react in the way you do over this issue , and I'm out to many women now .
Hmm? What words am I putting in the mouths of natal females in that post? I'm using their words. More specifically, the words of Simone de Beauvoir, whose work formed the basis for nearly all strains of modern feminism.
Beyond that, I would say that your sample size is rather small. More importantly, it's heavily biased towards women in relationships with gender nonconforming men who want to make it work badly enough to attend support groups and other functions with them.
With respect to bitterness, sure... I'm bitter about a lot of things. Transition has thrown the pervasive double standards and ridiculousness of patriarchy into incredibly sharp relief. It's frustrating when men don't recognize or actively dismiss the struggles that women still face in modern society, simply because they aren't affected by them. It's especially infuriating when men do that while simultaneously claiming some deeper connection to or understanding of women. So yes, I will somewhat bitterly point out the ways in which you do that, most of which you don't even realize you're doing.
As Reine keeps trying to point out, to seemingly minimal comprehension... Very few of you actually want to be women. The vast majority of you want to be centerfolds, or more accurately, the heavily staged static images of them, because that is your definition of what women should be. I have seen so many responses to her posts that go something like, "Yes, I agree Reine. Good points! That is why I strive to have very feminine mannerisms and look very presentable and prim and proper, so that I can feel like a woman", thus demonstrating that they have completely missed the point, intentionally or not.
Zooey,
As you rightly say , IN YOUR OPINION ! But Reine is a GG and she doesn't appear to be bitter and I'll ignore the condescending third paragraph, it's something I've never done personally to you !
I think we'd better call it a day on this one !
Zooey... If you really seek to get people here, particularly male CDs here, to understand your point better about woman oppression that you feel, you first need to be respectful when talking to people. The way you say now, it's very distracting for people to read and get personal very easily. I must say I'm finding myself a hard time understanding you too because of how you say it. It's very hard for me to actually get any point you tried to bring out with your replies.
Also, a lot of time you replied here, you only say "you men don't understand woman", but you didn't elaborate more on "why" (and that's what I'm trying to dig out from you.) It's not very helpful at all.
The same thing can say with you too. How many *real* women have you talked to regarding this issue? I emphasize on *real* to indicate GG only, not including trans woman. If you have already talked to other trans woman and got similar response to yours then okay, that's also a good knowledge to know too. But that won't apply to GG. No, you're still far different from GG woman out there that has lived all their life as a woman and they may have different opinions from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
Reine, I think being "attractive" and being "woman" are two different things. And I'd never say I'm more attractive woman than real woman, because I'm never a real woman. I can understand saying that would offend a lot of GGs. It's like saying "you're not beautiful", it's almost like an insult if one says it inappropriately. (The exception is that sometimes someone might want to get an honest opinion to improve themselves and they're ready for negative feedback then that's a good attitude.) But I'm not even sure how is that related to reducing woman to exterior thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I think the confusion is how you define "woman". I believe that for most people, you are a "woman" as long as you have a physical body of "woman", regardless of what your hobbies are, what you like, how you feel, what's your personality. The same goes with "man", you are a "man" as long as you have physical body of "man", even if you may not like sports, don't drink, have weak body, etc. Reine, as you mentioned earlier, woman and man have a lot of shared traits together and so our brains are not so much different, given if we have grown up in the same environment.
So, now, if I'm going with this logic, doesn't it mean we already define both "woman" and "man" according to the exterior thing, being physical body of each of us? Or am I mistaking the term "exterior thing"?
And now comes to the "I feel like a woman when I CD", at least for me, it'd be because when I look at myself in a mirror, I can resemble a woman, though not 100%. I can feel like a woman when having all shape wears (e.g. breast forms/butt pad/wigs) and wear my male cloth too sometimes, just for fun. But I must admit I do like to wear appropriate woman clothes more so that I can look like an attractive woman which feels better to myself.
So I'm not sure if my said behavior is reducing woman to exterior thing? It might be, but I'm still not convinced yet why it's a bad thing, and I need help from GGs to give some more example that I can relate to.
- Bonnie
Well, whether you understand women or not, you're clearly not very good at actually listening to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan
First of all... Really? You want to have the "real woman" conversation with me? Screw you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan
Second of all, how many natal females have i talked to about this subject... In person? Around 100. Online? Somewhere around 250 more, conservatively. The majority of them find discomfort in this subject past a certain point. For some, it's annoyance. For others, it's more frustration or anger.
If you want to read a perspective that you might understand better or find more relatable to you, I will refer you to this comment by Curiouser&Curioser. What they are describing is what I'm wishing more of you would realize.
Or.. it could be that it's you who's clearly not very good at speaking and explain things. *sigh* I must say each of your replies start to get to my nerve and it's clear that you don't try to be polite at all. Are you sure the reason you may be treated badly in personal life is not just because of your own personality that you expose here, rather than overall woman gender inequality? So before you can show some maturity here, I don't think I can take your point seriously anymore. I have already given myself enough time trying to understand you.
And yes, I've read a comment from Curiouser&Curiouser. I agree with her point too about sometimes we might have offended or reduced woman to something unintentionally, and we should learn more about that to make the world better. But, that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking specifically about "feel like a woman". And again, I'm still not convinced why would a male saying this is a bad thing for woman.
Moreover, you should also know your place that you are trans woman, not a real genetic-born woman. So stop talking like you know everything about being a woman. Sure, you may know about being a woman more than us because you have transitioned, but you definitely never will truly know how being a real woman would be because you haven't experienced as a woman from birth. How do you know GGs feel since they were a little girl? You were a boy, not a girl, and now an adult woman. That makes a big difference. At best you can only say you know how being a trans woman is, and you need to acknowledge that yourself first. You're trying to pretend yourself to be one of GG, which you are clearly not. It seems you believe everything you said is always correct. You know what people call that attitude? High-ego people.
- Bonnie
When did I say I was treated particularly badly in my personal life? I'm not, at least not relative to other women. Women as a class are systematically treated poorly relative to men.
I've never said that I was anything other than a trans woman, though I take serious issue with your characterization of me and other trans women. I know how "GGs" feel about certain things because I talk to them and actually listen. Generally speaking, we find our perspectives align, even if the specifics of our stories were a bit different. Sometimes we don't, and that's interesting too, though we've generally got a lot more in common than we do differences. One thing that transition and hindsight have made very clear is that, while I was a male child, I was never much of a boy.
Regardless, right now we are talking about the ways in which men - even or perhaps especially men in dresses - objectify women, and reduce their value to their perceived aesthetic qualities. Sorry to break it to you honey, but as somebody who's medically transitioning I've actually got a body that in overall appearance is substantially more "female" than "male" at this point, and I've got more than enough experience with objectification from men to speak confidently about it.
At least for now, I cannot say for sure that I can even 'feel like a woman'; mind you I don't even know how to 'feel like a man' at all. Heck, I am in no capacity to define femininity or womanhood for the time being (physically closeted and dissatisfied). I've definitely made the mistake of speaking in stereotypes quite a few times, even masculine ones, reducing a mere outward show to an inner feeling. I agree with Zooey as regards the idea that many on this page merely want to be a centerfold, a distilled image they perceive as the zenith of femininity, ergo the "prim and proper presentation" and reduction to stereotypes that is rampant on this site.
There is, perhaps, better shorthand for that feeling of beauty one experiences when being dressed up. In my male shell, I do feel that as well, unhappy as I may be with it. But feeling "like a woman" being tied down to adopting the mere image of one, and for that matter one perceived as the model standard of beauty? No. Just... NO. Don't you dare.
I agree..I still don't know where I fit in. I do know, at least for me, that I am probably a little too sensitive when watching a romantic movie, cry when I am touched by something, and I am interested in things a genetic woman would. dressed or not. I'm not sure how that makes me, but I don't think its something that some ( or many) of us can define because we are not born genetically women....just my experience is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sally24
Lily, by your "Feel like a woman", what do you actually mean? A lot of confusion is going on because this can be interpreted differently, mainly two things:
1) Know what it feels to be a woman, aka. know what other woman feels.
2) Have the feel (specifically the look feeling) of a woman.
Here's the definition:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/feel+like
feel like someone or something
to have the feel of someone or something; to seem to be someone or something according to feel or touch. Ex. Whoever this is feels like Tom. Sort of soft and pudgy. This thing feels like a rubber hose, not a hot dog.
And I must ask again (I already asked this earlier but it seems get lost), what does "woman" or "man" really mean? Is it referring to only the physical body, or are we talking about how one identify themselves, or could it be about traits/personalities too? IMO, "woman" or "man", in public eyes, differentiate based on the "look" of physical body only. Because there's a clear differences between woman and man physical bodies. And that may be reality that we need to accept first. (I'm not saying this is how it works but it could be one possibility.)
Still, I don't see why a male saying "I feel (have a look feeling) like a woman (when fully dressed up, with breasts/wigs/everything that helps make one look like woman)" would reduce woman's image or values at all.
For example, if I say "I feel like Tom when I wear this green shirt". Would this make Tom look bad at all? I don't see how. It's just a way to say that I look like Tom who likes to wear green shirt. This does not reduce Tom's value to be just the cloth, does it?
I'll say my current impression regarding "feel like a woman" is that we are making a big issue out of it unnecessarily. I can't find any connection or related example that this would make woman image looks bad yet.
And btw Zooey, I'm just saying you are trans woman, because you are trans woman. I'm not saying you are not one of woman, but rather a sub-set of woman that's different from GG. And to be fair, when I dress, I'm also still a man, a man in a dress that is. And I am a CD. And I am what I am.
- Bonnie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
If you want to nit pick on everyone's use of language then be prepared for it to be used on you too. You try to speak from the perspective of a woman, but reject that anyone else who hasn't followed your path could do the same. That's my problem with your whole line of reasoning. And your tone is not one of reason but of dismissal. You want TG people here to avoid stereotypes of women but you drop others here right into the stereotype image of a man who doesn't truly listen to women. Are there men here that do that? Sure. But you want to lump the majority here into that one little box. I think the beauty of this forum is to show how many different ways there are to be trans. The problem comes when one person or group is sure that they know more than everyone else on the subject. You know yourself. Everything else you know is by inference. You can't know how others feel or relate because they are not you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
"Woman", being a superset of cis women and trans women. So, I stand by the language I used, and I don't see any conflict in what you quoted from me.